+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +

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**BrianDavion**

Fifty wrote:
Can I check something from you all? I think I need the Imperial Fists book but am not certain. Black Templars are an Imperial Fists successor, so I assume they get the Imperial Fists super-doctrine, access to relics, etc?

There is no special exclusion for Black Templars, is there?

Maybe that will change if Black templars get their rumoured box set release, but for now, is that right?

yeah technicaly Black Templars are an Imperial fists sucessor chapter and could be treated accordingly. the book doesn't say anything about an exception for them.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Hey, the +1 to hit flag could actually be useful for us! Nice!

**BrianDavion**

It's not something I'd count on remaining PA2 is supposed to be oht sometime soon and rumor has it it'll have the black templars stuff. I'd also not be suprised to see GW FAQ that out (especially as if they don't and later give black templars a super doctrine, expect every TFG in the world to be running black templar armies with the IF AND BT Super doctrines arguing the rules imply they can)

**AlmightyWalrus**

Yes, but for a glorious short while you can combo the +1 to hit banner with Fury of the First to have TH/SS Terminators hitting on 2+.

**Blood Hawk**

I apologize if someone already pointed this out but...

I think I found a way to "break" the Salamander's self sacrifice stratagem. You take a Salamander Captain in gravis. Give him the Forge Master Warlord trait, The Salamander's Mantle relic, and either MoH or the new drakeskin power. You then put him in front of your infantry.

Being T8 with -1 to wound from the relic he is immune to small arms fire and so is any salamanders infantry behind him within 6'. He can probably tank some big shots as well. Mortal wounds would be a problem though.

**bort**

Breaking it is easier than that. Put some Scouts out of LoS closer to the enemy than the character. Nothing can shoot the char cause not the closest model and then nothing can shoot anything within 6” behind the char due to the strat.

**Blood Hawk**

bort wrote:
Breaking it is easier than that. Put some Scouts out of LoS closer to the enemy than the character. Nothing can shoot the char cause not the closest model and then nothing can shoot anything within 6” behind the char due to the strat.

That would work if your opponent doesn't have any weapons that ignore line of sight. GW is probably going to have to errata that strat to say "non character infantry".

**Rakdarian**

Speaking of Salamanders, Flamestorm Gauntlets (melee) are Flame weapons. Whcih means you get +1 to wound with tactical doctrine and Vulkan gives you Guilliman rerolls on the fight phase

**Slayer-Fan123**

Rakdarian wrote:
Speaking of Salamanders, Flamestorm Gauntlets (melee) are Flame weapons. Whcih means you get +1 to wound with tactical doctrine and Vulkan gives you Guilliman rerolls on the fight phase

Good catch! This is easily the second Codex: Aggressors after Ultramarines.

Chances are that will gain an FAQ.

**bort**

They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.

**Slayer-Fan123**

bort wrote:
They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.

I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.

**BrianDavion**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bort wrote:
They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.

I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.

they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.

**Rakdarian**

BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bort wrote:
They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.

I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.

they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.

Read: I dont like this rule so im going to ignore it because its convient. feth the rules i wanna play Calvinball

RAI literally doesnt matter

**p5freak**

BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bort wrote:
They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.

I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.

they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.

The FAQ on this has nothing to do with bolter fusillades. It still works for the melee part of boltstorm gauntlets.

**Robtype0**

Rakdarian wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bort wrote:
They never did FAQ remove bolter fusillades working on the melee portion of boltstorm.

I don't think that was ever brought up to be fair.

they eistablished that for purposes of masterwork weapons the melee part is seperate from the ranged part, I tend to assume the RAI is that things that effect flame and bolt weapons won't impact the power fist part of it too.

Read: I dont like this rule so im going to ignore it because its convient. feth the rules i wanna play Calvinball

RAI literally doesnt matter

You're right in that you can't impose a different interpretation of a rule on your opponent just because you think it should mean something different, but it matters as an indicator of what is likely to be changed in an FAQ.

I would actually argue that the RAW/RAI discussions actually matter now more than in any previous edition. With GW frequently addressing mistakes and misinterpreted rules in their FAQs, talking about the differences between the likely intention of a rule and its actual effect serves a real purpose, and can help us to anticipate what might get changed. I'm not going to build an army based on a nonsensical RAW interaction when it's likely to get picked up and changed within 6 months. GW has explicitly stated that, on a number of occasions, they have made changes because the original wording didn't reflect their intentions.

So yes, RAI does matter. Don't force your opponent to play by your own interpretation of the rules, but be aware that if a rule doesn't make sense, there's a good chance it will change soon.

**Gree**

I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?

**Tibs Ironblood**

Gree wrote:
I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?

Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.

**Crimson**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Gree wrote:
I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?

Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.

Not really. The Fist of Terra doesn't impose WS penalty and gives one extra attack. The end result is pretty comparable amount of damage being dealt. It is really about whether you rather spend the points or the CP. Of course you can do both and have a master-crafted Thunder Hammer.

**Rakdarian**

Robtype0 wrote:
Rakdarian wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bort wrote:

So yes, RAI does matter. Don't force your opponent to play by your own interpretation of the rules, but be aware that if a rule doesn't make sense, there's a good chance it will change soon.

Because Assault weapons have been FAQd at this point. Along with smoke launchers, how "End the attack sequence" works, what actually counts for rule of 3, whether or not canon successors interact with the codex, and many many more.

**Gree**

Crimson wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Gree wrote:
I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?

Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.

Not really. The Fist of Terra doesn't impose WS penalty and gives one extra attack. The end result is pretty comparable amount of damage being dealt. It is really about whether you rather spend the points or the CP. Of course you can do both and have a master-crafted Thunder Hammer.

I suppose I should clarify that Knights or Super-heavies aren't really a thing in my local meta, so I usually don't face them. I'm not sure if that would matter in a comparison between the two.

I must admit I do find the -1 penalty to be annoying, even with the Captain buffs.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Gree wrote:
I'm thinking about running a Smash Captain for my Imperial Fists. I'm wondering if I should give him the Fist of Terra instead of a Thunder Hammer. It seems superior in every way except damage. Is the fixed 3 damage really that important for the build?

Yes. The flat three damage is massive. Even with the absurd point difference between a power fist and thunder hammer people will still pay that premium price to get the flat 3. If you are going all in on a one trick pony you have to make sure it's a darn good pony.

Not really. The Fist of Terra doesn't impose WS penalty and gives one extra attack. The end result is pretty comparable amount of damage being dealt. It is really about whether you rather spend the points or the CP. Of course you can do both and have a master-crafted Thunder Hammer.

The extra attack doesn't outweigh the constant D3. The jump in damage is VERY high because of the variable from the DD3 missing. Yes on average both would kill a W4 model at the same rate, but the deviation is significantly less once you removed the extra dice roll.

**Crimson**

Gree wrote:

I suppose I should clarify that Knights or Super-heavies aren't really a thing in my local meta, so I usually don't face them. I'm not sure if that would matter in a comparison between the two.

I must admit I do find the -1 penalty to be annoying, even with the Captain buffs.

The (non MC) hammer is only better versus multiwound things when under the Chapter Master buff. And even then the difference isn't massive. Otherwise the Fist of Terra will equal it. Except of course the fist will be better at killing infantry, as you have more attacks and hit more often.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The extra attack doesn't outweigh the constant D3. The jump in damage is VERY high because of the variable from the DD3 missing. Yes on average both would kill a W4 model at the same rate, but the deviation is significantly less once you removed the extra dice roll.

It is not just an extra attack, it is the lack of hit penalty as well. The Fist of Terra will hit much more reliably. The randomness just is in the different place.

**Slayer-Fan123**

The -1 to hit isn't that bad though, and the extra attack from the fist is kinda canceled out by Shock Assault being a thing.

Of course someone would need to run the numbers, but the Thunder Hammer jumping up above the average damage consistently compared to a Power Fist is something to keep in mind.

**Crimson**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The -1 to hit isn't that bad though, and the extra attack from the fist is kinda canceled out by Shock Assault being a thing.

No, the hit penalty is a kinda big deal, do the math. And what Shock Assault has to do with this? The Fist of Terra's bonus attack is on top of that.

**godardc**

Guys, I'll have a 2 000pts game during the weekend of the 10th of November against a sautekh dynasty necron army.
His ability Lord of the Storm doesn't need line of sight, does it ?
So this is the list I intend to play, I think it's quite straightforward:

Spoiler:

I am particularly happy with the footslogging Ultramarines sternguards to be honest. Will be first time trying a stalker but seems GREAT on paper and my opponent loves his destroyers

Do you see any blatant flaw in this list ? I haven't faced necrons in about a year. Focus the units, destroy the destroyers quickly and what else ?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Lord of the Storm doesn't require LoS I think, but the mortal wound output isn't a wow factor.

**Red Corsair**

Yeah it really is. The storm ability is one of the main reasons to run him. You basically start the game off super smiting a unit, then on a 6 for every unit surrounding it within 6", gets mini smote.

In my last 3 games I have done 7, 9, and 10 mortals in the first turn. Those are just the ones I can think back on BTW, and have never had a game where it didn't pay off.

**Dr. Mills**

@godarc

Also, watch out when you tying to knock out any vehicles he has that have quantum shielding rules, as the Grav Cannons might not be the best vehicle hunters of the Necron vehicles anyway, as apart from the Monolith/Obelisk/Tessaract Vault they have 4+ saves.

If he runs a lot of Destroyers then grav Cannons will do a lot of work however. Also, confirm with him at the beginning of the game if any tomb blades he has have shield vanes, which give them 3+ saves, also a target for grav Cannons as tomb blades will be up in your face quickly hitting you with 4 S5 -2AP D1 shots from each bike.

Swap out Null Zone on the librarian for might of heroes. Necrons don't depend on invulnerable as they have reanimation protocols. Might of Heroes will give you an extra attack with your teeth of tetra and be harder to hurt back.

**GreatGranpapy**

I was just thinking about this when I was watching a batrep.

So you know how technically whenever a units shoots each individual shot is supposed to be resolved one at a time but we just roll everything at once because it would be awful to do the whole "to hit, to wound, save, damage" roll a bunch of times? If a squad of of whatever, lets say guardsmen, shoot at a squad of marines under a banner, would it be best to have each shot resolved per model? My thinking is that one or two guardsman early in the shooting could kill a marine, and before their buddies get to continue shooting, that marine could attempt to have the banner go off, allowing him to shoot back at the guardsmen and deny them shots. Unless of course I misinterpreting rules. Of course I wouldn't advocate doing this unless in an explicitly competitive environment.

**Robtype0**

What am I missing about Stalkers and Hunters? I've started seeing them in lists more and more since the new codex, and they don't seem to really have a role that cheaper units can't do more effectively. Is it the cheap T8 platform? Or is it their consistency against flyers?