Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2020/01/04 17:26:09
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
Different people play the game for different reasons, and still need help and advice.
“I love unit XX and want to use it, what’s the best way” is a legitimate question deserving of an answer. If you want to preface your answer with “Unit YY does the job better, but if you want to use XX...” that’s fine. Letting people know they are using a sub-optimal choice is OK. Not every list is going to be top-table tournament quality. For many of us, that’s acceptable. I’d rather play with units I love then ones I don’t. I acknowledge that it’s not the “right” call from a pure win/power POV. But odds are, the people I play against are also making similar sacrifices in their lists, so everyone ends up balanced.
"Bin your army/dreams and play the FOTM" is not helpful, even if it might let people win more. They want to win with their army, not some netlist.
Terms like "netlist" and "flavor of the month" are scrub mentalities. Self imposed limits are not a concern for Tactics discussion, as otherwise everything is just happy happy joy joy and use whatever you want. That's not discussion, that's just saying "I wanna use this" and replying "k cool".
Spoiler:
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/04 17:49:41
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
There IS a middle ground between 'use whatever who cares' and 'play the single strongest combination of units around'. That middle ground encompasses the vast majority of 40k players.
People can be limited by what models they own (or which ones they wish to purchase due to the looks of the model).
People can choose to try and optimise a certain playstyle, even if it isn't currently top tier to see what they can achieve with certain units. People who choose to play 'primaris marines only' are a very common example of this. It can be fun and rewarding to try and solve the tactical puzzle of how to use a certain subset of units to their highest potential.
People can be limited by their understanding of the game. It might be better to advise a new player to use a simple and effective strategy rather than a complex one (e.g. genestealer cults are a powerful army but a hard one to master).
I'm a competitive tournament player myself. But when giving advice it's important to tailor it to the person in question and what units or strategies they would actually want to (or be able to) use.
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
2020/01/04 18:03:06
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Different people play the game for different reasons, and still need help and advice.
“I love unit XX and want to use it, what’s the best way” is a legitimate question deserving of an answer. If you want to preface your answer with “Unit YY does the job better, but if you want to use XX...” that’s fine. Letting people know they are using a sub-optimal choice is OK. Not every list is going to be top-table tournament quality. For many of us, that’s acceptable. I’d rather play with units I love then ones I don’t. I acknowledge that it’s not the “right” call from a pure win/power POV. But odds are, the people I play against are also making similar sacrifices in their lists, so everyone ends up balanced.
"Bin your army/dreams and play the FOTM" is not helpful, even if it might let people win more. They want to win with their army, not some netlist.
Terms like "netlist" and "flavor of the month" are scrub mentalities. Self imposed limits are not a concern for Tactics discussion, as otherwise everything is just happy happy joy joy and use whatever you want. That's not discussion, that's just saying "I wanna use this" and replying "k cool".
Spoiler:
I respectfully disagree.
There is a wide range of tactics to discuss, from bleeding edge tournament lists to casual floorhammer. Someone might want to improve themselves at their local level without going full-throttle competitive. As a community, we should try to help out. If you want to excuse yourself from discussing “scrub” lists and tactics feel free; I generally avoid putting in my two cents when people are discussing tournament lists, as I lack experience there.
40k is played a many different levels, as we should be accommodating to that. If people ask questions in a framework, we should answer within that framework. You might choose to view everything though the lens of top-table ITC events, but not everyone does.
We can educate people on what works, specific combos, mathhammer, and other such things to improve their game. If they listen, that’s on them. If they choose to ignore it, they have their reasons. They might not want to use the best unit because they think it looks ugly. They might be willing to make the sacrifice in power, but want advice on what’s second best. Do we just ignore them? If a crappy unit is what drew them to the game, we should try to help them get the most out of it (even if it’s not much).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/04 22:55:51
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/01/05 02:23:15
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
BrianDavion wrote: this is a tactics thread, not a list building thread. personally it gets a bit silly when every tactics thread consists of "take X Y and Z"
that's not tactics. these threads would be MUCH more intreasting if someone posted a list and said "ok what can I do to make this perform as well as possiable?"
This sounds like a great idea to me.
Do you have a list to share?
Sure lemme toss out a list I'm pondering Bringing
Ultramarines Battlaion (2000 points)
HQs:
Primaris Captain with Master Crafted Stalker Boltrifle and power sword
Phobos Libby
Troops
4 x5 intercessor squads with Bolt Rifles (sergent has a chainsword cause duh!)
Elites:
2 Dakka Agressor Squads
and a redemptor Dread with heavy gatling canon, gatling canon, and stormbolters,
Heavy Support:
1 Squad Eliminators (sergent has the bolt carbine)
1 squad Hellblasters (5 man, rapid rife plasma guns)
Repulsor Executioner (with Heavy Laser Destroyer, Icarus Rocket Pod, Ironhail heavy stubber)
Dedicated Transports:
2 Impulsors each with stormbolters, Ironhail heavy stubber, and shield Dome
Repulsor: with Ironhail heavy stubber, twin heavy Bolter, Heavy Onslaught gatling Canon, Onsalught Gatling Canon, 3 stormbolters, and 2 fragstorm grenade launchers.
alright folks, with this specific list, how can I get the best performance out of it? what stragtiugums should I use and when? what infantry should go in what transport, etc? what should my warlord traits, relics and psyker pwoers be?
DISCUSS!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/05 02:23:41
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/01/05 03:00:26
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
I know you said "no listbuilding", but combining two of the Intercessor squads to a 10-man squad means you can get more oomph out of the Rapid Fire stratagem. Since it's Ultramarines being on foot isn't going to matter that much for Bolter Discipline. That'd also let you run the other two Intercessor squads and the Hellblasters in the transports. Turn the Captain into a Chapter Master, give him the vox Espiritum for bigger aura range. Adept of the Codex on something for CP regeneration since you're not gonna have a lot of them.
The Libby is limited in efficiency since a bunch of the Obscuration powers only work on <PHOBOS> units. Tenebrous Curse and something else I guess.
I haven't got the UM supplement, so there's probably some stuff in there that I'm missing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/05 03:07:18
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/01/05 03:08:21
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
DoomMouse wrote: There IS a middle ground between 'use whatever who cares' and 'play the single strongest combination of units around'. That middle ground encompasses the vast majority of 40k players.
People can be limited by what models they own (or which ones they wish to purchase due to the looks of the model).
People can choose to try and optimise a certain playstyle, even if it isn't currently top tier to see what they can achieve with certain units. People who choose to play 'primaris marines only' are a very common example of this. It can be fun and rewarding to try and solve the tactical puzzle of how to use a certain subset of units to their highest potential.
People can be limited by their understanding of the game. It might be better to advise a new player to use a simple and effective strategy rather than a complex one (e.g. genestealer cults are a powerful army but a hard one to master).
I'm a competitive tournament player myself. But when giving advice it's important to tailor it to the person in question and what units or strategies they would actually want to (or be able to) use.
Quoted for truth
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/05 12:21:32
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/05 05:52:37
2020/01/05 06:00:47
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
Not playing ITC doesn't magically make bad units any good. Sorry but it's true. Also this game isn't so complex that it garners much discussion to talk about those bad units, nor do we ever really discover anything new for those units a couple of months after a codex being dropped.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
Except I didn't create any artificial parameters. The whole game is available, surprise surprise. So yeah it's a waste of time to talk about Assault Marines, Tactical Terminators, Predators, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/05 06:04:10
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/05 07:49:46
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I know you said "no listbuilding", but combining two of the Intercessor squads to a 10-man squad means you can get more oomph out of the Rapid Fire stratagem. Since it's Ultramarines being on foot isn't going to matter that much for Bolter Discipline. That'd also let you run the other two Intercessor squads and the Hellblasters in the transports. Turn the Captain into a Chapter Master, give him the vox Espiritum for bigger aura range. Adept of the Codex on something for CP regeneration since you're not gonna have a lot of them.
The Libby is limited in efficiency since a bunch of the Obscuration powers only work on <PHOBOS> units. Tenebrous Curse and something else I guess.
I haven't got the UM supplement, so there's probably some stuff in there that I'm missing.
not a bad idea re the intercessors yeah (it's list optimization yes but it's acceptable for this exercise as you're not discussing . as for the Libby obscuration is of limtied use yes, but I can opt to sue the Ultramarines powers so there's that. truthfully I just like the Phobos Libby model eneugh that I'll make it work even though I'm proably better just using a normal libby.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
Not playing ITC doesn't magically make bad units any good. Sorry but it's true. Also this game isn't so complex that it garners much discussion to talk about those bad units, nor do we ever really discover anything new for those units a couple of months after a codex being dropped.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
Except I didn't create any artificial parameters. The whole game is available, surprise surprise. So yeah it's a waste of time to talk about Assault Marines, Tactical Terminators, Predators, etc.
except if someone HAS assault marines, terrminators and predators they'll want advise on how to use them, not be told "ohh buy a bunch of new stuff" not everyone has the money to drop on an entire new list every month.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/05 07:50:45
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/01/05 12:45:02
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
godardc wrote: Has anyone tried IH or UM land speeder (with ML ?) ? Even without any penalty to hit, looks awfully overcoated...
I’ve not put mine on the table in a while, but flew my TML/HB speeders a lot in previous editions. 8th was not kind to them. Regaining the ability to move and fire again is a huge boon to them, but do you need to? You pay a lot for the mobility on a platform that’s not that sturdy. For a few more points you can get a Dev squad, which is easier to hide in cover, gets a signum, can take advantage of cherubs/strats, etc. The Impulsor is a little slower, only gets one shot out of its ML (but gets an AA option), but has significantly more toughness and wounds. Plus transport.
The speeder gives a mix of firepower and movement. The problem is most of the time you want to castle up under auras with your guns, so getting the most out of both aspects is going to be tough. If you play on a table with a lot of terrain, the mobility can be key. Speeders do offer a reasonable amount of fire, and are fast enough to relocate when needed. But they are fragile and a little overpriced. They fill a niche, but it’s one that’s very table/opponent dependent.
They are not useless, but I would not recommend them in a vacuum.
BrianDavion wrote: this is a tactics thread, not a list building thread. personally it gets a bit silly when every tactics thread consists of "take X Y and Z"
that's not tactics. these threads would be MUCH more intreasting if someone posted a list and said "ok what can I do to make this perform as well as possiable?"
HQs:
Primaris Captain with Master Crafted Stalker Boltrifle and power sword
Phobos Libby
Troops
4 x5 intercessor squads with Bolt Rifles (sergent has a chainsword cause duh!)
Elites:
2 Dakka Agressor Squads
and a redemptor Dread with heavy gatling canon, gatling canon, and stormbolters,
Heavy Support:
1 Squad Eliminators (sergent has the bolt carbine)
1 squad Hellblasters (5 man, rapid rife plasma guns)
Repulsor Executioner (with Heavy Laser Destroyer, Icarus Rocket Pod, Ironhail heavy stubber)
Dedicated Transports:
2 Impulsors each with stormbolters, Ironhail heavy stubber, and shield Dome
Repulsor: with Ironhail heavy stubber, twin heavy Bolter, Heavy Onslaught gatling Canon, Onsalught Gatling Canon, 3 stormbolters, and 2 fragstorm grenade launchers.
alright folks, with this specific list, how can I get the best performance out of it? what stragtiugums should I use and when? what infantry should go in what transport, etc? what should my warlord traits, relics and psyker pwoers be?
DISCUSS!
I agree with walrus about bunching an intercessor unit. Ultramarine intercessors in tactical doctrine can move and use the Rapid Fire strategem at the full 30". So with ten intercessors, that means 40 shots at an effective range of 36". You get a lot more out of your 2 CP.
I actually like Phobos librarians because of what they can do:
-You can deploy forward in a LoS-blocking ruin to be in range for denials turn one
-If you're up against a heavy psychic (eg. smite spam) army, deploying forward with the Reliquary of Gathalamor will disrupt whatever your opponent was planning to do.
-He can step out of cover, cast a smite or mind raid, then use temporal corridor to get back under cover. Or, using the Shoot & Fade warlord trait, he can step out, cast two powers, and then move back under cover in the shooting phase.
-Phobos librarians can synergize with Eliminators, casting soul sight on them to improve their shooting, preventing them from being shot by using shrouding.
-Give the librarian the Shoot and Fade warlord trait, and the Eliminators can step out, shoot with their good ammunition, and then dodge back under cover (UMs don't care about moving and shooting heavies in tactical doctrine. I realize Elims can shoot without LoS, but the Mortis rounds are so much better at sniping characters with 4+ wounds.)
With everything in a transport except the Eliminators, they're going to draw fire from every indirect, dropping shot, and flyer unit on the table. Something like starting them inside one of the transports turn one, then moving them out once the opponent's indirect fire is dead, and/or casting shrouding on them, and/or keeping them out of LoS while they pop up and shoot, is pretty much the only way they're going to survive past turn one.
That's off the top of my head. Probably more on the way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The transport question is tough because there's no way to fit everything, so some T4 will be on the table turn one.
-Impulsors can only fit Intercessors, so two of the 5-man squads go in there.
-I assume those Aggressor squads are 3 models each? So one in the Executioner and the other in the Repulsor. Aggressors are going to draw a lot of fire and they need to be closer, so they should get priority access to transports. They don't want to disembark until tactical doctrine in turn 2 anyway.
-If you go with a 10-man Intercessor unit, then they can go on foot--they have much more range than Aggressors.
-One or two small Intercessor units hang back to camp home objectives (if this were a list-building thread, I would suggest stalker bolt rifles for one or the other squad).
-Captain goes in any transport where he'll fit.
-Librarian deploys forward in a ruin, or uses Temporal Corridor to go where he wants.
-Eliminators can either deploy in the Repulsor with the Aggressors, or can replace an Intercessor unit in an Impulsor. When it's safe for them to come out, they come out.
Then the army plays like an old-school mech infantry, moving into range, then disembarking and shooting.
Ultramarine Rapid Redeployment stratagem is, IMO, one of the best in the game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/05 17:52:39
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
2020/01/05 18:18:06
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I know you said "no listbuilding", but combining two of the Intercessor squads to a 10-man squad means you can get more oomph out of the Rapid Fire stratagem. Since it's Ultramarines being on foot isn't going to matter that much for Bolter Discipline. That'd also let you run the other two Intercessor squads and the Hellblasters in the transports. Turn the Captain into a Chapter Master, give him the vox Espiritum for bigger aura range. Adept of the Codex on something for CP regeneration since you're not gonna have a lot of them.
The Libby is limited in efficiency since a bunch of the Obscuration powers only work on <PHOBOS> units. Tenebrous Curse and something else I guess.
I haven't got the UM supplement, so there's probably some stuff in there that I'm missing.
not a bad idea re the intercessors yeah (it's list optimization yes but it's acceptable for this exercise as you're not discussing . as for the Libby obscuration is of limtied use yes, but I can opt to sue the Ultramarines powers so there's that. truthfully I just like the Phobos Libby model eneugh that I'll make it work even though I'm proably better just using a normal libby.
Flavius Infernus wrote: It's a tactics forum. People ask for tactics. Answering questions and sharing ideas should not be construed as an endorsement of one playstyle over another.
(Personally I don't play Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, and I have no desire to do so. I play both competitive and casual styles.)
If we self-censor or discourage each other from sharing information, then the usefulness of the forum is diminished for everyone. Then people stop coming here, and this is how forums die.
In a tactics thread we discuss the most efficient tactics and units and methods.
False. In a tactics thread you can and should discuss tactics and uses of units.
Nowhere does it say you absolutely must discuss only the most efficient ones. If somebody comes here wanting to make their assault Terminators work as best as they can, then this is the thread where that discussion can and should occur in. There's ample space to discuss the proper tactical application of those units even if they're notoriously inefficient.
Shouting at people because they dare to select units and lists that aren't ITCHammer meta defining even when tactics discussion can still be had is the epitome of childish nerdrage bs. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.
Not playing ITC doesn't magically make bad units any good. Sorry but it's true. Also this game isn't so complex that it garners much discussion to talk about those bad units, nor do we ever really discover anything new for those units a couple of months after a codex being dropped.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: If I say "given these circumstances, what advice would you give me?" and your response is "lol your circumstances don't count scrub, git gud" I'm not the one wasting people's time.
They're circumstances that only exist in parameters you created for yourself, ergo they're not real.
So? Your insistence on only being allowed to discuss the kind of tactics you care about is a parameter you've created yourself as well.
Funnily enough, all things else equal it takes a better player to win with a weaker unit choice, not a worse one. You're seemingly completely incapable of understanding the fact that someone might completely understand that a unit is sub-par but still want to make it as good as possible. Making a sub-par unit perform as well as possible is a completely valid way of making yourself better at the game.
Except I didn't create any artificial parameters. The whole game is available, surprise surprise. So yeah it's a waste of time to talk about Assault Marines, Tactical Terminators, Predators, etc.
except if someone HAS assault marines, terrminators and predators they'll want advise on how to use them, not be told "ohh buy a bunch of new stuff" not everyone has the money to drop on an entire new list every month.
They don't actually need to buy Assault Marines if they're just used as Vanguard. Also of course not everyone has money to drop nillywilly. That's why you tell people to avoid buying certain things in the first place!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/05 22:40:25
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/05 22:45:23
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/01/05 22:48:31
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/05 22:50:24
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
So poor people shouldn't be allowed to play baseball, if they can't afford new equipment? You're really not coming off very well.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2020/01/05 23:32:53
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Slayer you have a piss poor attitude and you aren't making any friends here with it. This doesn't go how you think it does. Take your bullcrap to the competitive warhammer subreddit or wherever else people only play at tournaments. Its been said many ways, but ultimately what I'm try to tell you is lose the attitude or GTFO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/05 23:33:13
2020/01/06 00:45:00
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
godardc wrote: Has anyone tried IH or UM land speeder (with ML ?) ? Even without any penalty to hit, looks awfully overcoated...
Ironhands speeds are pretty dang good. Put them in a unit of 3 and give them a 4++ for moving for 1 CP. Pretty hard to hide from them and that is a lot of firepower. A contemptor dread can get even more firepower for the price but it will have a 5++ not a 4++ and a more difficult time targeting the units it wants to - it is also a lot less versatile as the speeders can put out 6d6 str 4 ap-1 plus 9 str 5 ap-2 to kill infantry. Ultramarines are just a much worse version of that so I'd take them as Ironhands.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/06 02:26:28
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Advice given should be in context to the question asked. If someone asks how to make a specific unit work, then the advice should not be to replace that unit, but considerations on making it work.
If the Question is the value for a unit, then yes discussing possible alternatives for the unit's role is acceptable. That being said, it's generally more well received if a) you give an alternative, and b) say it in a positive and informative manner. Seriously reading unit A SUCKS, use unit B instead gets grating. It offers no real helpful input. It doesn't say why Unit A sucks, or what considerations should be given to taking Unit A over unit B, so it doesn't actually contribute anything to the conversation, and gets ignored.
That aside, I'd be wary of meta-chasing. If all your doing is following the FoTM then your not improving as a player, which for some people might be acceptable, but your also setting yourself up to be sideswiped by any list that is tailored to beat that meta. Having a bit of diversity in your list can often times be the way to survive those match-ups.
2020/01/06 04:46:40
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
So poor people shouldn't be allowed to play baseball, if they can't afford new equipment? You're really not coming off very well.
If you have damaged/worn equipment you should probably replace it. That's just common sense there. You never had a wooden bat break on you I take it?
Sometimes you can still get use out of that equipment and can't afford to replace it because you have this thing called a budget. Have you heard of that Slayer-fan? it's this thing adu;ts have to live with, and sometimes you have to choose between buying an entire new army to chase the meta fairy and eating? but I suppose you think people who can't just ask mommy and daddy for a new 40k army every 6 months aren't worthy of having hobbys?
because guess what? if someone posts a list they're proably trying to make the best list with the models they have, telling them to replace their entire list is... completly useless advice because
1: they may not be able to afford it.
2: they may not have time to do so (If I've got a game scheduled against my buddies a two days I don't have time to run out, buy build and paint an entire new army)
3: they might wanna use a partiuclar unit because gosh darn it, THEY LIKE IT!
people who responded to my list (which BTW is a list I could run right now as I own all the models) for example where doing PERFECT, they gave some sggestions regarding the particular list and the only major change they suggested was simply combining two squads into one, that's something they knew I could do if I so wished to.THAT was good advice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/06 04:50:18
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/01/06 06:42:55
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
Advice given should be in context to the question asked. If someone asks how to make a specific unit work, then the advice should not be to replace that unit, but considerations on making it work.
If the Question is the value for a unit, then yes discussing possible alternatives for the unit's role is acceptable. That being said, it's generally more well received if a) you give an alternative, and b) say it in a positive and informative manner. Seriously reading unit A SUCKS, use unit B instead gets grating. It offers no real helpful input. It doesn't say why Unit A sucks, or what considerations should be given to taking Unit A over unit B, so it doesn't actually contribute anything to the conversation, and gets ignored.
That aside, I'd be wary of meta-chasing. If all your doing is following the FoTM then your not improving as a player, which for some people might be acceptable, but your also setting yourself up to be sideswiped by any list that is tailored to beat that meta. Having a bit of diversity in your list can often times be the way to survive those match-ups.
Except people here don't care if you explain the unit is bad. There's posters here that literally can't do math at this point and they defend bad units. Plus look at how long this thread is. Should it really need to be explained AGAIN Assault Marines are garbage in a paragraph format? Not really, just a simple "they're mathematically bad compared to the other options" should be sufficient enough.
JNAProductions wrote: And if they're a returning player, who already has a bunch of bad models?
Slayer, top-table tournament tactics is ONE THING that should be discussed here. Not the ONLY thing.
They would probably need to invest in new ones. That's GWs shoddy balancing for ya. 20 playtesters my ass.
Also if nobody is planning to shoot to the top then there's little merit for discussion. That fits under the same category of "use whatever happy happy joy joy".
Is everything so binary with you?
When you play a game of baseball, is it "Must be training day and night to try to make the Major Leagues" or "Break the rules, it's casual, no one cares!"?
Seriously-you can want to field your old or beloved models that aren't very effective, while still trying your best to win.
I'm not going to go play baseball with a worn out bat and glove and not do my best. Otherwise I might as well not show up. Nor should anyone have interest in a game where one of your teammates doesn't try either.
So poor people shouldn't be allowed to play baseball, if they can't afford new equipment? You're really not coming off very well.
If you have damaged/worn equipment you should probably replace it. That's just common sense there. You never had a wooden bat break on you I take it?
Sometimes you can still get use out of that equipment and can't afford to replace it because you have this thing called a budget. Have you heard of that Slayer-fan? it's this thing adu;ts have to live with, and sometimes you have to choose between buying an entire new army to chase the meta fairy and eating? but I suppose you think people who can't just ask mommy and daddy for a new 40k army every 6 months aren't worthy of having hobbys?
because guess what? if someone posts a list they're proably trying to make the best list with the models they have, telling them to replace their entire list is... completly useless advice because
1: they may not be able to afford it.
2: they may not have time to do so (If I've got a game scheduled against my buddies a two days I don't have time to run out, buy build and paint an entire new army)
3: they might wanna use a partiuclar unit because gosh darn it, THEY LIKE IT!
people who responded to my list (which BTW is a list I could run right now as I own all the models) for example where doing PERFECT, they gave some sggestions regarding the particular list and the only major change they suggested was simply combining two squads into one, that's something they knew I could do if I so wished to.THAT was good advice.
So you're not actually looking for advice. You're looking for "everything is great kiddo! Great job!"
If someone wanted to improve at baseball, and all they had was the worn about-to-break bat, yeah the first piece of advice should be to toss it, not try and duct tape it together.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/06 06:45:29
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/06 08:33:07
Subject: Re:+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
BrianDavion wrote: that you keep making a baseball analogy just shows how utterly clueless you are.
No Baseball coach is going to tell someone who shows up to their first game of baseball to go out and get olympic level baseball gear.
He's going to work on the SKILL SET.
Touche
Also funny that people play baseball without planning to win world cup so organize teams that aren't best players in the world either.
And no one, precisely NO ONE is going to fobid you from playing in a local "fun league" because your glove is a bit old. only time poor equipment would be an issue is if it was a safety concern.
but yeah I'd much rather see a focus on skill set then "lol your list needs XYZ" actually I for one would appreciate a tactics thread of basic tricks, I know as someone whom readily admits he's not perfect by any means there are a lot of little positional things that I suspect I'd benifit from being told with images etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/06 09:30:19
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/01/06 13:38:29
Subject: + Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +
godardc wrote: Has anyone tried IH or UM land speeder (with ML ?) ? Even without any penalty to hit, looks awfully overcoated...
I've used up to four speeders at a time in typhoon/HB configuration, but with Raven Guard rather than UM/IH, in both competitive and casual games.
The fire output is amazing, even with the move-shoot penalty, even without staying in a bubble. It's just a lot of shots, and with flexibility to switch between antitank and frag. So, for example, I've seen two speeders wipe out a unit of Deathwatch vets with storm shields, because frag doesn't care about invulnerable saves, then next turn blow up a dread with krak missiles.
But the durability of the speeders is basically zero. With so much Str5 in the marine meta right now, the speeders go down like paper in whatever turn your opponent decides to target them (even with the RG cover save). If you hide them, they can't shoot, and Thunderfire cannons just wipe them out even when they hide. Imperial Fists can just sneeze in their direction, and the speeders go down. Best case, they get to shoot once or twice, then they give up an easy kill.
Skilled Riders isn't one of the good defensive strats (like Eldar lighting fast reactions) that you trigger when the unit is targeted. Because it works in your movement phase, you can't use it at all in turn one if you're going second--which means dead speeders since they can't start in reserve or hide from indirect fire. You can only protect one unit of speeders at a time, you have to pick which unit to protect before your opponent's turn, and 2CP every turn gets really expensive.
I've heard about competitive players using them in a kind of lurk-and-pounce mode, using Skilled Riders to soak up fire. But that's out of my league in terms of skill level, personally.
I really would like them to work. Tactically, a cheap speeder or two with the mobility to score points by zooming around to objectives, recon, linebreaker and so forth is really great, if you can keep it alive long enough. Flying vehicles make really good screening units, but compared with Impulsors for about the same cost...
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
