+ Space Marines 8th Edition Codex Mark II Tactica +

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**Blood Hawk**

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Thoughts on inceptors?? Really think my list lacks something that can attack then enemy in the backfield and cause problems.

Thinking of putting in a squad of 4 will bolters and a squad of 3 plasmas into my army and dropping them in with my smash captain turn 2 and just causing havoc in the backfield.

Inceptors are solid with the new codex. I probably won't bother with the plasma at this point and would just stick with bolters.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Plasma is too expensive and that makes it a trap choice, on top of the random shots too. A solid 6 shots is good. And of course, being W3 makes them that much tougher.

The only problem is making room. I like the Bolter version but I can't fit them ANYWHERE in any list I make.

**Lemondish**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
DanielFM wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?

Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.

The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.

/rant

You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.

IF Incepters, Indominus Crusade Detachment, Greyshields WLT, Add Crimson Fist CT for a turn, for double exploding 6s, then Bolter drill for another.

That's alot of dakka.

Kind of highlights the Imperial Fist supplement issues even further. To get these combos you need to combine a ton of rules from 3 books, which are both CP intensive and require pregame commitment.

Then you need to combine all these things together in an army that telegraphs the crap out of it, which is great for providing counterplay, and something I'd normally be championing...if the resulting effect wasn't just BOLTSTOOOOORM (cue tiny warcraft marrowgar pet).

**ultimentra**

Lemondish wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
DanielFM wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If Imperial Fists are now on a level that is "ruined", could GW please ruin Black Templars and Salamanders too?

Do not get me wrong - they aren't 'ruined' as far as competitive viability is concerned. They're a solid army by virtue of being built on the great Space Marine codex. You can also still go and grab Seismic Devastation to make an impact - it's weird that this one never made it into the actual supplement, but it's there...for now.

The rest of it is meh - even when good, it's bland. I think that is the most annoying part about this, but I feel I must be honest - I felt this way since the supplement released, but it is only now that I get to really voice my issue with it because it just highlights it further.

/rant

You actually understand the state of IFs. Seeing beyond the "IF super doctrine was OP, you can't complaint" is a rare sight.

IF Incepters, Indominus Crusade Detachment, Greyshields WLT, Add Crimson Fist CT for a turn, for double exploding 6s, then Bolter drill for another.

That's alot of dakka.

Kind of highlights the Imperial Fist supplement issues even further. To get these combos you need to combine a ton of rules from 3 books, which are both CP intensive and require pregame commitment.

Then you need to combine all these things together in an army that telegraphs the crap out of it, which is great for providing counterplay, and something I'd normally be championing...if the resulting effect wasn't just BOLTSTOOOOORM (cue tiny warcraft marrowgar pet).

Wow its almost like playing this game requires a modicum of mental effort or something?

**Rogerio134134**

Think from now on I will be running my crimson fists as Imperial fist successors to get a better chapter tactic, thing that I don't like is I don't get to use Pedro Kantor anymore but I think the ignore cover is worth it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Think from now on I will be running my crimson fists as Imperial fist successors to get a better chapter tactic, thing that I don't like is I don't get to use Pedro Kantor anymore but I think the ignore cover is worth it.

Run Pedro as a generic dude. The model is good enough after all. Run him as though he's using Primarchs Wrath if necessary.

**Rogerio134134**

Yeah I converted him into a Primaris body so I'll be using him still. Crimson fists just don't seem to do the business, the recent tournament really showed me that I need to step it up a notch in competitive games.

**Lemondish**

ultimentra wrote:

Wow its almost like playing this game requires a modicum of mental effort or something?

Tell me again how stacking the exact same effect so it applies 3 times is some kind of laudable mental achievement...?

**The Fomorian**

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Nevelon wrote:
godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?

p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.

Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.

I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ to fill a slot, he can work, but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT.

But once you take a step away from competitive army building...
He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.

(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)

Also good for filling out an elite slot for a brigade for not too many points. I'm thinking about swapping my 2-man company vets out for a company champ because he's easier to hide against indirect fire for only a few points more.

For Raven Guard, the anti-character abilities synergize with the chapter doctrines. Shadowstep and/or Infiltrators strat makes it possible to get him in reach of enemy characters. With the burning blade and RG bonus, he can wound character knights on a rerollable 4.

Well, I have built a company champion that should be able to comfortably kill most characters. Here is what I have on him.

Warlord trait : Champion of Humanity
Relic : The Burning Blade
Have a librarian near, to buff him with Might of Heroes
Use the custom chapter tactic Whirlwind of Rage, for extra hits on a 6.

Now you have a company champion at S8, A7, T5 on the first round of a fight phase, which he will fight first in, against characters anyways. I have test rolled this so many times. Hits on an average of 8-9 times. He will hit on 2s with rerolls, and wound on 3s with rerolls on toughness 8, and wounding on 2s with rerolls against T7 or lower. That is a 47 point beast on the field.

**No wolves on Fenris**

Quick question. Got a second unit of eliminators to build. Already have one unit with the sniper rifles and was wondering to do the 2nd squad with them or give them las fusils? Usually play a tai force with mainly battle suits and as many drones as possible or Death guard. I tend to only use Primaris models and the only other anti armour I have is a las cannon las talon repulsor and an Executioner with the big cannon not the macro Plasma Incinerator. And Guilliman!

**Slayer-Fan123**

The Fomorian wrote:
Flavius Infernus wrote:
Nevelon wrote:
godardc wrote:Have you tried a company champion ? For about 50 pts they do look good ! Unfortunate we can't give them better weapons (the one they have is already pretty good though) but they do have access to WL traits and relics with the supplements so...
I'll try one Saturday I think. The main issue is how to be sure he will face an enemy character ?

p5freak wrote:What is good about 3 melee attacks at S4 ?? You could give him the burning blade, but that's wasting a relic.

Champions got a boost in the new codex. I was looking at the rules in battlescribe, and they are out of date (at least my version when I checked) They have 4A base, plus a bunch of new rules.

I’ve had my eye on them to experiment with. First strike, full to hit/wound re-rolls vs. characters, 3/6” heroic intervention. MC sword and a 5++ for 47 points. Seems a nice little blender. Obviously, ALL they do is fight. They don’t add auras, there is no synergy to leverage. Competitive 40k is all about the synergies. The champion adds force, when you want to be multiplying. For a low cost HQ to fill a slot, he can work, but you are probably better off with a techmarine, or a bare-bones captain/LT.

But once you take a step away from competitive army building...
He has the same WS/A as a captain, so hits pretty well. Locked into the sword, which is not the best. But with full native re-rolls vs. characters, that’s mitigated quite a bit. He has a bunch of rules to help him get into combat, and get his swings in. Nice plus there. I think he should be able to pull his weight. He is not that expensive, so if you can get him into CC, he should make his points back. He’s a very characterful cool looking guy. I think the new book made him viable, if a little shy of competitive.

(Of course, Ultramarines get the Chapter Champion, which takes this guy up to 11. But still is probably a pass for competitive lists. Build and primed one myself, waiting for paint)

Also good for filling out an elite slot for a brigade for not too many points. I'm thinking about swapping my 2-man company vets out for a company champ because he's easier to hide against indirect fire for only a few points more.

For Raven Guard, the anti-character abilities synergize with the chapter doctrines. Shadowstep and/or Infiltrators strat makes it possible to get him in reach of enemy characters. With the burning blade and RG bonus, he can wound character knights on a rerollable 4.

Well, I have built a company champion that should be able to comfortably kill most characters. Here is what I have on him.

Warlord trait : Champion of Humanity
Relic : The Burning Blade
Have a librarian near, to buff him with Might of Heroes
Use the custom chapter tactic Whirlwind of Rage, for extra hits on a 6.

Now you have a company champion at S8, A7, T5 on the first round of a fight phase, which he will fight first in, against characters anyways. I have test rolled this so many times. Hits on an average of 8-9 times. He will hit on 2s with rerolls, and wound on 3s with rerolls on toughness 8, and wounding on 2s with rerolls against T7 or lower. That is a 47 point beast on the field.

I'd rather just use Teeth of Terra instead of Burning Blade. The 3 extra attacks is better than the strength bonus against a majority of targets.

**Nevelon**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'd rather just use Teeth of Terra instead of Burning Blade. The 3 extra attacks is better than the strength bonus against a majority of targets.

He’s working with a Company Champion, they don’t have the options for chainswords.

**Darkseid**

To hook into the recent discussion.

I have been preoccupied with my other armies, haven't been following marines to much.

How did the latest updates affect the marine armies? Is IH still the top dog?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Nevelon wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'd rather just use Teeth of Terra instead of Burning Blade. The 3 extra attacks is better than the strength bonus against a majority of targets.

He’s working with a Company Champion, they don’t have the options for chainswords.

I'm blind. My bad, G.

If that's the case, don't they get a Relic power sword that's D3 with F&F? That's the threshold that kills Custodes or Bullgryns orat least kills Knights faster.

**Neophyte2012**

Darkseid wrote:
To hook into the recent discussion.

I have been preoccupied with my other armies, haven't been following marines to much.

How did the latest updates affect the marine armies? Is IH still the top dog?

Ironhand took a big hit recently, it is no longer the "auto-win" choice. But I think it is still strong, just need to adapt instead of keeping with the old Repuslor - Leviathan built.

I think Ironhand infantry heavy army will still pack some serious punch. For example, one good combo maybe taking Ferrios, Chief Apothercary, a cheap Chapter Master, some Gravcannon Devastators in Droppod, and massed Intercessors (some with stalker bolt rifles, some with auto bolt rifles). Turn 1, drop in the Grav Devastators near the character blobs, pop the stratgem "grav amplification" for reroll wounds and dmg and "mercy is weak" to double the wounds on

What you will get is 20 shots, S5 AP-4, D3 dmg against heavy targets, hit on re-rollable 2s, wound most things at minimum rerollable 5+ but the meat is any

is two wounds. So against IK it will dealt around 15 wounds before its inv save, so it is gonna to eat around 19 dmg on average even the IK pops 4++ inv save, which is not too shabby.

On defensive side, if you drop the squad into cover, they get 2+/5++/5+++, so any dmg 1 weapon will need at least 12 wounds inflicted to kill the 5 men squad. Against the screening Intercessors, it need much more, and actually the threat of 2 dmg weapons against intercessors are much lowered by the 5+++.

**Blood Hawk**

Darkseid wrote:
To hook into the recent discussion.

I have been preoccupied with my other armies, haven't been following marines to much.

How did the latest updates affect the marine armies? Is IH still the top dog?

Hard to tell, I haven't had a chance to play much lately. I did play a few games when the codex first came out where I switched through the doctrines like I thought GW intended. It was still strong. The min max lists spamming heavy weapons are weaker than before, but a lot of SM chapters (like WS) aren't really affected that much.

**Rogerio134134**

Fists definitely took a hit losing the super doctrine turn 2 but I have moved to a mainly bolter heavy army with 30 intercessors now to maximize on exploding sixes and tactical doctrine. A squad of 10 Intercessors with the rapid fire strat (making bolt rifles rapid fire 2) with exploding sixes in re roll aura range at ap 2 is no joke!

I am tempted to start including some incursors in my army as well now due to their low points cost and the fact that they have plenty of attacks in close combat, they will definitely benefit from the combat doctrine.

**Mr. Funktastic**

So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?

**BrianDavion**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?

A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have

**Mr. Funktastic**

BrianDavion wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?

A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have

Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.

**Mr. Funktastic**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.

Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.

**Blood Hawk**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?

A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have

Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.

Executioners are great. I wouldn't bring only one and bunch of infantry though. You would need threat saturation in your list to help get the most out of it.

**Mr. Funktastic**

Blood Hawk wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?

A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have

Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.

Executioners are great. I wouldn't bring only one and bunch of infantry though. You would need threat saturation in your list to help get the most out of it.

Yeah if I went that route I'd probably bring 2 though, RG in general seem to favor infantry heavy lists so 2 of those plus 2 Invictors would likely be the extent of vehicles I would bring. However, if I didn't want to invest in a Repulsor Executioner, would replacing the bolt sniper rifles on 2 units of Eliminators with las fusils comboed with Master Artisans plus a full squad of deep striking Hellblasters (or Plasma Inceptors? Not sure which people think are better these days) be a viable alternative for ranged anti armor? Haven't heard a lot of buzz about las fusils in general but they seem useful in a pinch especially with Master Artisan rerolls. Figured I would have character sniping covered enough with 1 bolt sniper Eliminator squad, a Phobos Captain with Marksman Honors and Korvidari Bolts, and a Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris.

**Blood Hawk**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Blood Hawk wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So how viable is a Primaris only army, particularly for Raven Guard successors? The only thing I worry about are Flyers but other than that they seem to have sufficient anti-tank in Aggressors/Invictors/Hellblasters/Plasma Inceptors. Would Repulsor Executioners be worth it for them?

A pure primaris army is absolutely totally 100% viable. and repulsor executoners are a pretty solid tank. proably the best MBT marines have

Are Repulsor Executioners good even for a RG successor? The lists I've seen are mostly infantry centric with the exception of Invictors.

Executioners are great. I wouldn't bring only one and bunch of infantry though. You would need threat saturation in your list to help get the most out of it.

Yeah if I went that route I'd probably bring 2 though, RG in general seem to favor infantry heavy lists so 2 of those plus 2 Invictors would likely be the extent of vehicles I would bring. However, if I didn't want to invest in a Repulsor Executioner, would replacing the bolt sniper rifles on 2 units of Eliminators with las fusils comboed with Master Artisans plus a full squad of deep striking Hellblasters (or Plasma Inceptors? Not sure which people think are better these days) be a viable alternative for ranged anti armor? Haven't heard a lot of buzz about las fusils in general but they seem useful in a pinch especially with Master Artisan rerolls. Figured I would have character sniping covered enough with 1 bolt sniper Eliminator squad, a Phobos Captain with Marksman Honors and Korvidari Bolts, and a Phobos Lieutenant with Ex Tenebris.

I haven't tried las talon eliminators myself. They look ok on paper. Definitely a unit I would proxy first before buying. However I have found bolt sniper eliminators are actually rather decent at shooting monsters and vehicles with master artisans and the sergeant guiding their shots.

As for inceptors, I wouldn't take plasma with the new codex.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.

Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.

That extra three inches does a lot. When you wish you were an extra three inches closer so you can more successfully make a charge, apply the same logic to range weapons. It doesn't apply much to Tactical Marines, but everyone else loves it. Centurions with an even bigger threat range? Assault Bolt Intercessors throwing shots out from even further? Flamers actually being able to shoot from Deep Strike? Not to mention the deployment flexibility it gives for the whole army basically. Need to really squeeze into a corner for that Thunderfire? Sure no problem.

We have rerolls from HQ units and Dreads (for one CP a turn). All of our stuff is based around getting rerolls. Master Artisans adds too much redundancy to actually be effective, hence why people started being able to counter any successor Chapter trying to make use of it, and I pointed that out a while ago.

**Mr. Funktastic**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yep. Stealthy and Marksmen are my go-to as a successor. I plan to experiment with Carcharodons soon after a recent thread on Proposed Rules. Tyberos doesn't offer too much but I don't mind that until it comes down to cutting points.

Why Marksmen? +3" doesn't seem like a huge deal to me unless it's for flamer and melta weapons and given that RG/RG successors love Phobos units with their forward deploying ability, it would probably let them get into range of whatever they want fairly easily. My thought is going for Stealthy + Master Artisans instead, Eliminators and Phobos Captains/Lieutenants would definitely appreciate the free reroll to hit and wound and even a Repulsor Executioner with a Heavy Laser Destroyer probably wouldn't mind a full reroll for one of its 4 shots either.

That extra three inches does a lot. When you wish you were an extra three inches closer so you can more successfully make a charge, apply the same logic to range weapons. It doesn't apply much to Tactical Marines, but everyone else loves it. Centurions with an even bigger threat range? Assault Bolt Intercessors throwing shots out from even further? Flamers actually being able to shoot from Deep Strike? Not to mention the deployment flexibility it gives for the whole army basically. Need to really squeeze into a corner for that Thunderfire? Sure no problem.

We have rerolls from HQ units and Dreads (for one CP a turn). All of our stuff is based around getting rerolls. Master Artisans adds too much redundancy to actually be effective, hence why people started being able to counter any successor Chapter trying to make use of it, and I pointed that out a while ago.

I suppose, but 3" is a way bigger difference for charges than for weapon ranges generally IMO since if you're forward deploying with Phobos units/master of ambushing/deep striking I don't think there are many units that are going to be out of range for most of your units. I can see it being helpful but in the case where your army is likely to be spread out and most units will be out of range of a captain/lieutenant's auras, I can see master artisans being useful. Both would probably require testing though.

**bort**

The one I was waffling on more for a while there was Stealthy. Sure, the cover is easily the best when it works, but GW was piling on the ways to ignore cover and render your trait worthless. But with the nerf to IF armies that ignore cover will presumably be less common again.

**kingheff**

On the subject of inceptors, I've found bringing a unit of six bolter dudes down turn 2 with the salamander +1 to wound strat to be devastating to just about anything they look at.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Alright so I updated my Raptors Brigade a little bit as follows, which will be my plaything until I've gotten Carcharodons down:

x1 Lias Issodon, Warlord Trait: Echo of the Ravenspire
x1 Biker Captain, Storm Bolter, Teeth of Terra, Master of the Trifold Path: Master of Vigilance or Swift and Deadly
x1 Terminator Captain, Storm Shield, Chainfist, Wrist Mounted Grenade Launcher???, Token of Brotherhood: Armor of Shadows, Hero of the Chapter: The Imperium's Sword

x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML
x5 Scouts w/ 4 Sniper Rifles, ML
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade
x5 Intercessors w/ Stalker Rifles, Aux Grenade

x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x10 Sternguard w/ 2 Grav Cannons
x1 Ancient in Terminator Armor, Chapter Ancient, Relics of the Chapter: Emperor Ascendant or Righteous Hatred

x1 Attack Bike
x1 Attack Bike
x1 Attack Bike

x1 Stalker w/ Storm Bolter
x1 Stalker w/ Storm Bolter
x1 Stalker w/ Storm Bolter
x1 Thunderfire Cannon

The list plays the same as before for me. Everyone in the Elite slot and Lias will camp until T2 whilst the screens get cleared by the Attack Bikes and TFC, and then they drop down and cause a small amount of havoc. Biker Captain camps with the Stalkers and whatever Troops are nearby, and then rushes forward as necessary.