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Made in gb
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine



Manchester, UK

Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:
Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:


Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.



I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.

The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.


Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?

You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.

The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.


I'm not adding bits. I"m reading exactly what's there. Any Kind of Move. In the Movement Phase. I'm not adding ONLY in the movment phase when it isn't there. Or that Movement Phase Rules don't apply outside of the movement phase. You guys are. When something says only in the movement phase, then it's only in the movement phase. When it doesn't, it's not.

Page 249 says the number and type of powers a psyker can manifest in the psychic phase are on the model's datasheet. Can you find a rule suggesting where to look for the powers they can manifest outside of the psychic phase? Apparently Page 249 does indeed specify "In the psychic phase".


Ok, fair point on psykers.

No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase? So I can move a model every phase then? If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.

The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Dadavester wrote:


No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase?
Well Page 247 specifically says it's not the only phase you can move a model. Page 248 "advancing" also has an issue if you're going to claim movement phase rules only apply in the movement phase.

So I can move a model every phase then?
There are Psychic powers that allow you to move. I'm not sure what would allow you to move in the Shooting phase, but it's possible. Page 247 says you can move in the Charge Phase and the Fight Phase. I'm not sure where you're goin with this, but you might want to read the rules you want to ask about before you end up with another psychic phase fiasco.

If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.
Page 247 also says Start your movement phase... So the movememnt phase rules allowing moving the models does get limited to the movement phase. Uh oh, its the psychic phase thing all over again. Really you should read these things first.


The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.

You can move in the shooting phase if you can find a rule that says move in the shooting phase. The rules for moving in the movememnt phase say Start your movement phase...

You keep trying to add "In the movement phase where it's not, and not seeing "in the X phase" when it is there. What's your next attempt?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/23 11:30:41


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine



Manchester, UK

Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:


No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase?
Well Page 247 specifically says it's not the only phase you can move a model. Page 248 "advancing" also has an issue if you're going to claim movement phase rules only apply in the movement phase.

So I can move a model every phase then?
There are Psychic powers that allow you to move. I'm not sure what would allow you to move in the Shooting phase, but it's possible. Page 247 says you can move in the Charge Phase and the Fight Phase. I'm not sure where you're goin with this, but you might want to read the rules you want to ask about before you end up with another psychic phase fiasco.

If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.
Page 247 also says Start your movement phase... So the movememnt phase rules allowing moving the models does get limited to the movement phase. Uh oh, its the psychic phase thing all over again. Really you should read these things first.


The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.

You can move in the shooting phase if you can find a rule that says move in the shooting phase. The rules for moving in the movememnt phase say Start your movement phase...

You keep trying to add "In the movement phase where it's not, and not seeing "in the X phase" when it is there. What's your next attempt?


You are missing my point.

The rules for AIRCRAFT state to, "add the following text to the end of the movement phase section." So in my reading of this it applies to the movement phase only as it is in the rules for the movement phase.

You are saying that because this does not state it applies to only the movement phase it applies to all phases.

My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Dadavester wrote:
Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:


Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.



I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.

The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.


Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?

You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.

The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.

The psyker phase has already been answered and acknowledged, so I won't go into that.

What about other types of movement? Charging, pile in, and consolidate? If the restriction on not being able to move through models only exists in the movement phase as you assert, then that means you are allowed to move through models for charging, pile in, and consolidation.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine



Manchester, UK

JakeSiren wrote:
Dadavester wrote:
Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:


Again if the AIRCRAFT rules applies only to the movement phase the rules work. If you try and apply the AIRCRAFT rule to all the phases you start to break many other rules. It is obvious how it should apply.



I'd say it's obvious how the snare rule should apply. But if we can't agree on the RAI, we're stuck with the RAW.

The AIRCRAFT rule itself has generic rules, and Specifically IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE rules contained there-in. Thus the AIRCRAFT rules that don't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE apply outside the movement phase. And you are correct, it breaks a whole lot of things it shouldn't. I'd blame GW and the people who want to ensnare an airplane if I were you.


Using this logic, as the psychic phase does not specify "in the psychic phase" can i smite in the movement phase?

You cannot claim RAW then add bits yourself. The AIRCRAFT rule applies to the movement phase. no where does it state it applies to all phases. If you state that because it doesn't specify IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE it applies in all other phases, you can then smite in the movement phase.

The rules clearly states "Add the following text to the end of the Movement Phase section:" so it applies to the movement phase. applying it to all phases breaks nearly the entire game.

The psyker phase has already been answered and acknowledged, so I won't go into that.

What about other types of movement? Charging, pile in, and consolidate? If the restriction on not being able to move through models only exists in the movement phase as you assert, then that means you are allowed to move through models for charging, pile in, and consolidation.


So either way the rules are broken? As your way I can move in every single phase due to there being no "In the movement phase" restriction on selecting a model to move?

It comes down to, again, that one reading of the rules does not allow you to be within 1" of an AIRCRAFT or charge anyone if you were ever within 1" of an AIRCRAFT that turn. The other reading always you to get within 1" (using flying units as per the AIRBOURNE rule) and allows you to charge if you have passed with 1" of an AIRCRAFT.

My belief is RAW is the latter.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Heres the litteral RAW from the Main rulebook errata :

Spoiler:

Page 177 – Movement Phase
Add the following text to the end of the Movement
phase section:
‘Aircraft
If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move
characteristic (or if it has a damage table on
its datasheet that includes any minimum Move
characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.
Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be
moved across such models (and their bases) as if they
were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of
another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move
within 1" of any enemy units.
If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement
phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are
Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not
have to Fall Back in order to move).’


Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be
moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft
, alright, i can consolidate/pile into an aircraft, still wont be able to hit it unless i have the fly keyword.

There, answered!

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

You have to use the entire sentence: "Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units."

To put it shortly, Breton is RAW right when it comes to not being able to end a Charge, Pile In, or Consolidation move within 1" of enemy Aircraft because the rule fails to state "during the Movement Phase."

He's still wrong about Fly allowing models move without making a Fall Back move if the start their movement within 1" of Enemy Models. The ability to "move across as if not there" is not the same as ignoring them entirely.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dadavester wrote:
Spoiler:
Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:


No where in the Movement phase does it state that moving a model only applies to the movement phase?
Well Page 247 specifically says it's not the only phase you can move a model. Page 248 "advancing" also has an issue if you're going to claim movement phase rules only apply in the movement phase.

So I can move a model every phase then?
There are Psychic powers that allow you to move. I'm not sure what would allow you to move in the Shooting phase, but it's possible. Page 247 says you can move in the Charge Phase and the Fight Phase. I'm not sure where you're goin with this, but you might want to read the rules you want to ask about before you end up with another psychic phase fiasco.

If, as you say, rules in the movement phase apply to every phase UNLESS stated otherwise I can move a model in the Shooting phase.
Page 247 also says Start your movement phase... So the movememnt phase rules allowing moving the models does get limited to the movement phase. Uh oh, its the psychic phase thing all over again. Really you should read these things first.


The Rules for AIRCRAFT state to add it to the movement phase. Myself, and others, interpret this as meaning it applies to the movement phase only. You, and some others, say it applies to every phase as it doesn't specify "Only in the movement phase." Again using this logic I can now move in the shooting phase, as no where in the movement phase does it state the rules for moving only apply to the movement phase.

You can move in the shooting phase if you can find a rule that says move in the shooting phase. The rules for moving in the movememnt phase say Start your movement phase...

You keep trying to add "In the movement phase where it's not, and not seeing "in the X phase" when it is there. What's your next attempt?


You are missing my point.

The rules for AIRCRAFT state to, "add the following text to the end of the movement phase section." So in my reading of this it applies to the movement phase only as it is in the rules for the movement phase.

You are saying that because this does not state it applies to only the movement phase it applies to all phases.

My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?


From different sections in the Movement Phase rules

Minimum move. "Some models that can FLY" have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. the first is the model's minimum speed - in the Movement phase,..."

Enemy Models: "When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved ..."

Advancing "Wen you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase,"

Just a few examples where it states "in the Movement phase" for movement related things.

To counter your counter argument, you can select a unit and move it just like normal if you have a special rule that lets you move, just like you could use psyker abilities outside the psyker phase if you had a special ability giving you permission to do so outside the psyker phase. These are strawman arguments, however. We are not dealing with being given permission to do something outside the phase, we are dealing with a restriction on movement that states any kind of move (much like having to end in certain coherency "after any sort of move"). The prohibition is not stated to be limited to the Movement phase, and I've given examples of premissions and prohibitions that do say "in the Movement phase" even with it being in the Movement phase section. That means the prohibition would still be in effect. Now they might end up editing this in the future, or changing it with the next Big FAQ, but as it stands you have a prohibition which we are told applies to any sort of move.

AIRBORNE give you explicit permission if you have FLY to charge an aircraft, so that would override the prohibition (to deal with one of your other arguments)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/23 17:54:26


 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine



Manchester, UK


Im not trying to add that at all. What i am say is that the rule itself is added to the movement phase therefore ONLY applies in the movement phase.

@doctortom - I think you need to read the rules better. If what you are saying is true, AIRBOURNE does not give FLY permission to override the prohibition, it gives AIRBOURNE permission to be charged by FLY. The new AIRCRAFT rule does not allow you to be within 1" therefore your charge always fails (or at least that is what breton and others are saying and i disagree with).

You apply the movement phase rules to the movement phase, this means that AIRCRAFT applies to the movement phase and units can move within 1" of AIRCRAFT.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/23 21:45:09


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





And I reject what you're saying as per the evidence of saying "in the movement phase" in several of the rules in the movement phase. If they meant it to apply only in the movement phase, they would have included "in the movement phase" in the restriction.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine



Manchester, UK

 doctortom wrote:
And I reject what you're saying as per the evidence of saying "in the movement phase" in several of the rules in the movement phase. If they meant it to apply only in the movement phase, they would have included "in the movement phase" in the restriction.


So with that logic, it does not say "in the movement phase" when moving a unit. So I can move my entire army again in every phase?
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




No because you don't normally have permission to move in other phases.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Dadavester wrote:


My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?


The reason it doesn't say that in the rules for the movement phase is - you can move models outside of the movement phase.

As for if you can just choose to move models outside the movement phase without another rule "unlocking them"...

The rules "unlocking" moving models in the movement phase rules states "Start your movement phase..." limiting the unlock of moving models to the movement phase with that rule. Later it says no model may be moved twice in the movement phase. IF you have a rule that allows movement in the shooting phase - like the old Tau Jet Packs that allowed their units to move out in the movement phase, shoot, then then jet back into cover after - moving in the shooting phase is possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 alextroy wrote:


He's still wrong about Fly allowing models move without making a Fall Back move if the start their movement within 1" of Enemy Models. The ability to "move across as if not there" is not the same as ignoring them entirely.


You only have to fall back if there's a model within 1" - if they're not there, you don't have to fall back - and in fact I'm not even sure you could CHOOSE to fall back if they aren't there. If you shoot as if you haven't moved, the conditions for moving don't apply. If you move as if not within 1", the conditions for 1" are not there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dadavester wrote:


So either way the rules are broken?
That is often enough the case, that my response to people trying to do something shady by the RAW usually works. Everybody wants to RAI the rules that are written stupidly so they can play the game the way they want to and think it should work. Few will want to RAW an edge scenario like ensnaring an AIRCRAFT more than they want to RAI being able to charge it, fight it, and shoot their pistols and assault weapons. When forced to choose between a compromise RAI, and both players using a soul crushing RAW, most people pick the RAI.

As your way I can move in every single phase due to there being no "In the movement phase" restriction on selecting a model to move?
Well, there's the part about "Start your movement phase..." limiting the permissions from the movement phase to move models to the movement phase, but as already agreed, there are ways to move models in other phases.

It comes down to, again, that one reading of the rules does not allow you to be within 1" of an AIRCRAFT or charge anyone if you were ever within 1" of an AIRCRAFT that turn. The other reading always you to get within 1" (using flying units as per the AIRBOURNE rule) and allows you to charge if you have passed with 1" of an AIRCRAFT.

My belief is RAW is the latter.
Your belief is RAI is the latter. The RAW is black and white. Without an expressed limitation, no model may end their move within 1" of an enemy AIRCRAFT etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/24 04:49:22


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine



Manchester, UK

Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:


My counter argument to that is no where in the movement phase does it state moving a model happens only in the movement phase. So according to your logic I can, in the shooting phase, select a a unit and move it just like normal?


The reason it doesn't say that in the rules for the movement phase is - you can move models outside of the movement phase.

As for if you can just choose to move models outside the movement phase without another rule "unlocking them"...

The rules "unlocking" moving models in the movement phase rules states "Start your movement phase..." limiting the unlock of moving models to the movement phase with that rule. Later it says no model may be moved twice in the movement phase. IF you have a rule that allows movement in the shooting phase - like the old Tau Jet Packs that allowed their units to move out in the movement phase, shoot, then then jet back into cover after - moving in the shooting phase is possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 alextroy wrote:


He's still wrong about Fly allowing models move without making a Fall Back move if the start their movement within 1" of Enemy Models. The ability to "move across as if not there" is not the same as ignoring them entirely.


You only have to fall back if there's a model within 1" - if they're not there, you don't have to fall back - and in fact I'm not even sure you could CHOOSE to fall back if they aren't there. If you shoot as if you haven't moved, the conditions for moving don't apply. If you move as if not within 1", the conditions for 1" are not there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dadavester wrote:


So either way the rules are broken?
That is often enough the case, that my response to people trying to do something shady by the RAW usually works. Everybody wants to RAI the rules that are written stupidly so they can play the game the way they want to and think it should work. Few will want to RAW an edge scenario like ensnaring an AIRCRAFT more than they want to RAI being able to charge it, fight it, and shoot their pistols and assault weapons. When forced to choose between a compromise RAI, and both players using a soul crushing RAW, most people pick the RAI.

As your way I can move in every single phase due to there being no "In the movement phase" restriction on selecting a model to move?
Well, there's the part about "Start your movement phase..." limiting the permissions from the movement phase to move models to the movement phase, but as already agreed, there are ways to move models in other phases.

It comes down to, again, that one reading of the rules does not allow you to be within 1" of an AIRCRAFT or charge anyone if you were ever within 1" of an AIRCRAFT that turn. The other reading always you to get within 1" (using flying units as per the AIRBOURNE rule) and allows you to charge if you have passed with 1" of an AIRCRAFT.

My belief is RAW is the latter.
Your belief is RAI is the latter. The RAW is black and white. Without an expressed limitation, no model may end their move within 1" of an enemy AIRCRAFT etc.


No, RAW is you add the rule to the movement phase.

And myself, and others, say it applies only to the movement phase due to it being included in that phase.

You say that movement phase rules apply to every phase unless stated. The downside of that is that there is no reatriction on movement. So by your logic i can move my entire army in every phase. And no the " Start you movement phase by selecting a model to move" is not a restriction on moving in other phases, it just tells you how to start the phase.

So either the AIRCRAFT rule applies to the Movement phase only, or it applies to mutliple phases and breaks several rules.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Dadavester wrote:


No, RAW is you add the rule to the movement phase.

And myself, and others, say it applies only to the movement phase due to it being included in that phase.

You say that movement phase rules apply to every phase unless stated. The downside of that is that there is no reatriction on movement. So by your logic i can move my entire army in every phase. And no the " Start you movement phase by selecting a model to move" is not a restriction on moving in other phases, it just tells you how to start the phase.

So either the AIRCRAFT rule applies to the Movement phase only, or it applies to mutliple phases and breaks several rules.


Where's the RAW that says it only applies to the movement phase? That's what you're adding. There is not rule stating rules in the movement phase section only apply to the movement phase section.

And myself, and others, say it isn't limited to the movement phase due to it NOT being included in that phase. I can bandwagon appeal too.

There IS a restriction on movement. You quoted it yourself, but now you're pretending it doesn't exist. It says Start Your Movement phase... There are other rules that allow you to move in other phases. The Shooting Phase rules however do not say Start Your Shooting phase by moving models. It doesn't restrict moving in other phases because moving in other phases is allowed.

The Aircraft Rule applies in both the movement phase, and parts of it through all phases. And yes, it "breaks" several rules so they no longer function properly if at all. So does the Advance/Assault rule. And the Pistols/1" rule. That's the problem with being unflinchingly RAW. And as I've pointed out over and over, if you want to RAW the ensnare gaffe GW made, you're going to RAW everything else because I'm not going to agree to RAW'ing what screws me, and RAI'ing what helps you. We can have some give and take RAI, or we can go full on RAW. Ironically their awful RAW rules make a very effective carrot and stick for getting people to compromise on the RAI. Now who wants to ensnare an Aircraft?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




 doctortom wrote:
And I reject what you're saying as per the evidence of saying "in the movement phase" in several of the rules in the movement phase. If they meant it to apply only in the movement phase, they would have included "in the movement phase" in the restriction.


And as evidence, I reject what you’re saying.
Yes a lot of the rules for the movement phase says “in the movement phase” but how else would they write the rules if they can’t add that part at all. It’s just silly as it’s easy and straightforward rule making.

And by your logic. All movement apply to all phases. Then why add that FLY can charge over other units in the charge phase when the movement rule of FLY all ready got this? Makes no sense at all.

To be fair, the rule is badly written and can be read both ways. Let’s just email GW about it and end this discussion. We’re just going in circles anyway.

I’m out.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune




Conclusion: The aircraft rule is only valid in the movement phase.

Thus any model can lock Aircraft outside of said phase in the previous mentioned ways.

This is the raw, an leaves far less issues of "applies to all phases."

The interpretation is

1) "Any kind of move" (in the movement phase, related change. REF: "Page 177 – Movement Phase" [Insert aircraft rules])
vs
2) "Any kind of move" (Any phase)

2) The game can break and stops rules functioning.
1) Works and the rules function, regardless if it is "not thematic."

1: is the obvious way to play. The only reason I see someone prolonging this conversation past the FUNCTIONAL raw at this point is if they have a multi-flyer list and just can't deal with a valid counter/weakness.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/08/25 17:59:57


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

I can't believe how long this has been going on (ok, I can, this is DakkaDakka ). Here are the Movement phase rules, errata included, in their entirety.

Spoiler:
1. Movement Phase

Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase. No part of a model or its base can be set up or moved over the edge of the battlefield.

Moving

A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.

If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models as if they were not there, and when moving across terrain features, vertical distance is not counted against the total it can move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move across models (other than Buildings) as if they were not there.

Minimum Move

Some models that can Fly have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. The first is the model’s minimum speed– in the Movement phase, all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least that far from where they started. The second is its maximum speed – no part of the model’s base can be moved further than this. If a model cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum speed, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield – the model has either stalled and crashed or been forced to abandon the battle.

Enemy Models

All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.

Falling Back

Units starting the Movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or Fall Back. If you choose to Fall Back, the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units. If a unit Falls Back, it cannot Advance (see below), or charge later that turn. A unit that Falls Back also cannot shoot later that turn unless it can Fly.

Advancing

When you pick a unit to move in the Movement phase, you can declare that it will Advance. Roll a dice and add the result to the Move characteristics of all models in the unit for that Movement phase. A unit that Advances can’t shoot or charge later that turn.

Aircraft

If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.

Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.

If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).


Why post this? For common reference and to allow everyone to see for themselves a few points:
1. Some of the rules in the Movement Phase apply only to the Movement Phase. Notably, part of Fly, and all of Minimum Move, Enemy Models, Falling Back, and Advancing as specifically noted in each section.
2. No such restriction is noted anywhere in Aircraft.

This means, as much as it galls me, the RAW of Aircraft actually forbids you end your move within 1" of an Aircraft at all times. GW needs to errata the last sentence of the second paragraph to read "..., and during the Movement phase it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy models."
   
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Likewise, I guess the guys saying that rules only apply in the phase corresponding to the section they are in are saying that enemy models are only defined as enemy in the movement phase and friendly models are only defined as friendly during the same. The rest of the game those definitions don't apply because the rules are only located in the section for the movement phase. Man, that is gonna throw a monkey wrench in a few things

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/25 23:30:02


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ThatMG wrote:
Conclusion: The aircraft rule is only valid in the movement phase.

Thus any model can lock Aircraft outside of said phase in the previous mentioned ways.

This is the raw, an leaves far less issues of "applies to all phases."

The interpretation is

1) "Any kind of move" (in the movement phase, related change. REF: "Page 177 – Movement Phase" [Insert aircraft rules])
vs
2) "Any kind of move" (Any phase)

2) The game can break and stops rules functioning.
1) Works and the rules function, regardless if it is "not thematic."

1: is the obvious way to play. The only reason I see someone prolonging this conversation past the FUNCTIONAL raw at this point is if they have a multi-flyer list and just can't deal with a valid counter/weakness.


Conclusion, you want a cheesy shortcut to deal with flyers because you run a list that can't do so normally - I too can suggest ulterior motives for holding a position. For the record I do not yet have even one assembled, painted, and ready for play flyer. I have a Stormwing formation still sitting in boxes on my project bench, but they're not high on the priority list. I object to backdoor assaulting an Aircraft and snaring them on Suspension of Disbelief grounds, not personal use.

1) "FUNCTIONAL RAW" sounds an awful lot like RAI. Adding words that aren't there, or assuming they're "supposed to be" is RAI. My RAI is you can't snare Aircraft. Your RAW is they can. As long as you want to RAW snare, I'm going to RAW Aircraft. Nobody I know is going to let you RAI the stuff that helps you and RAW the stuff that hurts them. You get to pick one. Either we all RAI in a compromise taking logic into account, or we all RAW. I'm not going to miss charging Aircraft in close combat, shooting Assault Weapons after advancing, or pistols into a within 1". RAW works for me. RAI works for me. Your move.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Germany

Aircraft

If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.

Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.

If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).


If these rules apply in all phases you cannot charge anything, because you cant end the move within 1" of any enemy units. Unless a charge move is not any kind of move Is the intention of the second sentence that you cant end your move within 1" of any enemy aircraft ? If so the third sentence doesnt make any sense, because you can move within 1" of enemy aircraft.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/26 05:47:30


 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Aircraft

If a unit can Fly and it has a minimum Move characteristic (or if it has a damage table on its datasheet that includes any minimum Move characteristics), that unit gains the Aircraft keyword.

Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.

If, when a unit is selected to move in the Movement phase, the only enemy units that are within 1" of it are Aircraft, then it can still make a move (i.e. it does not have to Fall Back in order to move).


If these rules apply in all phases you cannot charge anything, because you cant end the move within 1" of any enemy units. Unless a charge move is not any kind of move Is the intention of the second sentence that you cant end your move within 1" of any enemy aircraft ? If so the third sentence doesnt make any sense, because you can move within 1" of enemy aircraft.


That is correct, IF you must move within 1" of an AIRCRAFT during your charge/pile-in/consolidation/move/etc move you cannot charge anything- I've already pointed this out with no small degree of schadenfreude.
If you don't then you may charge things, because the general prohibition of within 1" is specifically limited to the movement phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/26 05:52:38


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Germany

Ok, so you cant charge anything anymore, thanks GW Thats a big bummer for melee armys
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Ok, so you cant charge anything anymore, thanks GW Thats a big bummer for melee armys


Only if they have to go wtihin 1" of an Aircraft. You really have a problem sticking with what's actually written instead of what you want to read.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in de
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Germany

The second sentence says you can move within 1" of an aircraft, and you can move across it as if it isnt there, and you cannot end any kind of move within 1" of enemy models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/26 07:51:15


 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
The second sentence says you can move within 1" of an aircraft, and you can move across it as if it isnt there, and you cannot end any kind of move within 1" of enemy models.


This is not the same as: "Ok, so you cant charge anything anymore, thanks GW " You can still charge "anything" just not if you need to travel within 1" of an Aircraft on the way.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Germany

Ok, i got it now.
   
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Manchester, UK

Applying the rule to every phase breaks the game. It is not clear what RAW is, as shown be this discussion. Imo it is clear that that the best intrepreation of RAW is that it applies to movement phase only as that does not break other rules, or contridict its own rule.
   
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Dadavester wrote:
Applying the rule to every phase breaks the game. It is not clear what RAW is, as shown be this discussion. Imo it is clear that that the best intrepreation of RAW is that it applies to movement phase only as that does not break other rules, or contridict its own rule.


Applying the Assault Weapons, and Within 1"/Pistols rules breaks the game. It's still the RAW. Its still clear what the RAW is. Not liking the RAW is not the same as the RAW being unclear. The RAW is EXACTLY as written. Without reference to phase. No more (It only applies during the movement phase) and no less (Nobody can charge anything anymore). I don't have to like being able to ensnare a Jet Fighter several miles in the air. You don't have to like not being able to end any kind of move within 1"of an Aircraft. But they're both the RAW. Don't like enough, house rule it, and use your own RAI. But it's going to go my way on the stuff I don't like too.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine



Manchester, UK

Breton wrote:
Dadavester wrote:
Applying the rule to every phase breaks the game. It is not clear what RAW is, as shown be this discussion. Imo it is clear that that the best intrepreation of RAW is that it applies to movement phase only as that does not break other rules, or contridict its own rule.


Applying the Assault Weapons, and Within 1"/Pistols rules breaks the game. It's still the RAW. Its still clear what the RAW is. Not liking the RAW is not the same as the RAW being unclear. The RAW is EXACTLY as written. Without reference to phase. No more (It only applies during the movement phase) and no less (Nobody can charge anything anymore). I don't have to like being able to ensnare a Jet Fighter several miles in the air. You don't have to like not being able to end any kind of move within 1"of an Aircraft. But they're both the RAW. Don't like enough, house rule it, and use your own RAI. But it's going to go my way on the stuff I don't like too.


Then tell me where exactly does it say that the AIRCRAFT rule applies to all phases?

It doesnt does it? So its not clear in the slightest what RAW is. That means we have 2 intrepretations of RAW so i will be going with the one that doesnt break the game.
   
 
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