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2016/02/19 15:39:04
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Is it legal to use older versions of the characters that have new versions that have been made into primaris marines?
Obviously what you do in a pickup game is down to you and your opponent, I'm asking about the actual rules.
For example - can i still use the version of Marneus/tigurius/Khan from the first 8th edition space marine codex? Can I use the version from the index? If the new version directly replaces them (they have the same name on the datasheet) is it acceptable to use the older model?
Also in the index are Marneus in artificier armour and Khar on bike which have differently named datasheets so those would appear to be fine to still use.
I'm asking as I have most of the older models and am not collecting any primaris marines but still intend to use my models and want to know the legal way of doing so.
WisdomLS wrote: Is it legal to use older versions of the characters that have new versions that have been made into primaris marines?
In a word, no. You do not have permission to use the incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You may only use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.
2019/08/19 15:55:34
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
WisdomLS wrote: Is it legal to use older versions of the characters that have new versions that have been made into primaris marines?
In a word, no. You do not have permission to use the incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You may only use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.
Still tilting at that windmill are you?
If this were the case conversions and scratchbuilding would be verboten, and they are clearly not.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2019/08/19 16:06:56
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
WisdomLS wrote: Is it legal to use older versions of the characters that have new versions that have been made into primaris marines?
In a word, no. You do not have permission to use the incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You may only use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.
Still tilting at that windmill are you?
If this were the case conversions and scratchbuilding would be verboten, and they are clearly not.
So which is it? I say any model can be used to represent any datasheet, I get yelled at and I realise I am wrong so I change my answer. Now when I give the correct answer that only the correct model can be used to represent the correct datasheet, I get yelled at.
It can't be both, so which is it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 16:07:21
2019/08/19 16:18:25
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
So wait, I can't use my old tiggy model with the old tiggy datasheet in matched play?
So I get to throw away (put on the shelf with my DA/BA/SW/DW units) the tiggy model I bought a couple months ago?
If they were going to release new primaris models of existing characters and then remove my ability to use the old character they should have removed the old versions instead of screwing people who buy the model and only get to use it for a couple months...
I guess I could just cut up the tiggy model and glue the arms on a intercessor body and call it a day (it will look like crap but who cares right, it will be legal)?
0027/08/19 16:20:19
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
WisdomLS wrote: Is it legal to use older versions of the characters that have new versions that have been made into primaris marines?
In a word, no. You do not have permission to use the incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You may only use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.
Still tilting at that windmill are you?
If this were the case conversions and scratchbuilding would be verboten, and they are clearly not.
So which is it? I say any model can be used to represent any datasheet, I get yelled at and I realise I am wrong so I change my answer. Now when I give the correct answer that only the correct model can be used to represent the correct datasheet, I get yelled at.
It can't be both, so which is it?
It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
2019/08/19 16:24:54
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
2019/08/19 16:34:01
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
If you actually bothered to play the game IRL you would see the subtlety and unspoken "rules" regarding things like this. Conversions, counts as, rule of cool. All things covered by the degrees of subtlety in allowing things to represent other things in the game.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2019/08/19 16:54:57
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
bananathug wrote: So wait, I can't use my old tiggy model with the old tiggy datasheet in matched play?
So I get to throw away (put on the shelf with my DA/BA/SW/DW units) the tiggy model I bought a couple months ago?
If they were going to release new primaris models of existing characters and then remove my ability to use the old character they should have removed the old versions instead of screwing people who buy the model and only get to use it for a couple months...
I guess I could just cut up the tiggy model and glue the arms on a intercessor body and call it a day (it will look like crap but who cares right, it will be legal)?
Honestly, unless they massively changed the base and model size for the new versions. Using the old shouldn't ever be a problem. It falls under one of those weird proxy situations.
2019/08/19 17:07:01
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
RAW is binary. How the game is played is not. When someone is asking advice for something like this, just spouting RAW does not help them at all.
2019/08/19 17:12:03
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
RAW is binary. How the game is played is not. When someone is asking advice for something like this, just spouting RAW does not help them at all.
And for something like this he needs to ask his usual opponents, not some random people on the internet he'll never play against.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2019/08/19 17:13:31
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
RAW is binary. How the game is played is not. When someone is asking advice for something like this, just spouting RAW does not help them at all.
And for something like this he needs to ask his usual opponents, not some random people on the internet he'll never play against.
It's totally valid to ask in this forum about the general consensus is on these things.
2019/08/19 17:40:57
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
WisdomLS wrote: Is it legal to use older versions of the characters that have new versions that have been made into primaris marines?
In a word, no. You do not have permission to use the incorrect model to represent a datasheet. You may only use the correct model to represent the correct datasheet.
Still tilting at that windmill are you?
If this were the case conversions and scratchbuilding would be verboten, and they are clearly not.
So which is it? I say any model can be used to represent any datasheet, I get yelled at and I realise I am wrong so I change my answer. Now when I give the correct answer that only the correct model can be used to represent the correct datasheet, I get yelled at.
It can't be both, so which is it?
You apply the reasonable person standard. Would an average, reasonable person accept you using Terminator Armored Marneus Calgar to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? Yeah, probably. Would that same person allow you to use a Rhino to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? No, probably not.
It's not a black and white issue. It's an issue that the overwhelming majority of people have no issue resolving if they just take an average, reasonable approach.
To stay on topic... there are no rules covering this, so talk to your opponent or the TO if going to an event. If your proxy is reasonable, they'll probably let you proxy. If it's unreasonable, they probably won't. Using Calgar to represent Calgar, regardless of his current height, is probably reasonable.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Kriswall wrote: You apply the reasonable person standard. Would an average, reasonable person accept you using Terminator Armored Marneus Calgar to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? Yeah, probably. Would that same person allow you to use a Rhino to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? No, probably not.
It's not a black and white issue. It's an issue that the overwhelming majority of people have no issue resolving if they just take an average, reasonable approach.
To stay on topic... there are no rules covering this, so talk to your opponent or the TO if going to an event. If your proxy is reasonable, they'll probably let you proxy. If it's unreasonable, they probably won't. Using Calgar to represent Calgar, regardless of his current height, is probably reasonable.
And to me a reasonable person would follow the rules.
2019/08/19 18:04:33
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Kriswall wrote: You apply the reasonable person standard. Would an average, reasonable person accept you using Terminator Armored Marneus Calgar to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? Yeah, probably. Would that same person allow you to use a Rhino to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? No, probably not.
It's not a black and white issue. It's an issue that the overwhelming majority of people have no issue resolving if they just take an average, reasonable approach.
To stay on topic... there are no rules covering this, so talk to your opponent or the TO if going to an event. If your proxy is reasonable, they'll probably let you proxy. If it's unreasonable, they probably won't. Using Calgar to represent Calgar, regardless of his current height, is probably reasonable.
And to me a reasonable person would follow the rules.
Fortunately, the reasonable person standard is an established legal construct and your opinion (or mine) doesn't really matter. It's pretty clear to many forum goers that your opinion on certain matters tends to be a bit of an outlier. In other words, your perception of what a reasonable person would do is often wrong. Even rudimentary observation shows that most people aren't as rigorously adherent to the rules as you'd like them to be.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Kriswall wrote: You apply the reasonable person standard. Would an average, reasonable person accept you using Terminator Armored Marneus Calgar to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? Yeah, probably. Would that same person allow you to use a Rhino to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? No, probably not.
It's not a black and white issue. It's an issue that the overwhelming majority of people have no issue resolving if they just take an average, reasonable approach.
To stay on topic... there are no rules covering this, so talk to your opponent or the TO if going to an event. If your proxy is reasonable, they'll probably let you proxy. If it's unreasonable, they probably won't. Using Calgar to represent Calgar, regardless of his current height, is probably reasonable.
And to me a reasonable person would follow the rules.
That one really whooshed over your head didn't it?
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2019/08/19 18:22:38
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
RAW is binary. How the game is played is not. When someone is asking advice for something like this, just spouting RAW does not help them at all.
And for something like this he needs to ask his usual opponents, not some random people on the internet he'll never play against.
It's totally valid to ask in this forum about the general consensus is on these things.
Valid and still utterly pointless as the only opinion which matters is that of his opponent.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2019/08/19 18:24:54
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
RAW is binary. How the game is played is not. When someone is asking advice for something like this, just spouting RAW does not help them at all.
And for something like this he needs to ask his usual opponents, not some random people on the internet he'll never play against.
It's totally valid to ask in this forum about the general consensus is on these things.
Valid and still utterly pointless as the only opinion which matters is that of his opponent.
I don't think level setting your expectations is ever pointless. Asking what an average opponent might say prepares you to have the eventual conversation with an actual opponent.
Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
RAW is binary. How the game is played is not. When someone is asking advice for something like this, just spouting RAW does not help them at all.
And for something like this he needs to ask his usual opponents, not some random people on the internet he'll never play against.
It's totally valid to ask in this forum about the general consensus is on these things.
Valid and still utterly pointless as the only opinion which matters is that of his opponent.
That's a very reductive position to take, and pretty unhelpful.
Maybe they're looking for guidance of what sort of thing to expect across multiple groups they might encounter. It's a great idea to check in with a bigger online community to get a wider opinion about how that might go, before deciding what purchases to make. And we can help with that, so we should.
2019/08/19 18:32:21
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
It's unhelpful to tell someone to actually talk to their opponent and come to an agreement with them instead of going around and around on a non-rules subject for the hundredth time with no consensus? I think it's the best advice he can get.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2019/08/19 18:35:37
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Ghaz wrote: It's unhelpful to tell someone to actually talk to their opponent and come to an agreement with them instead of going around and around on a non-rules subject for the hundredth time with no consensus? I think it's the best advice he can get.
It's unhelpful to say that's the ONLY thing they can do. And we don't even know if the person has a regular group. There's no need to be so obstinate.
2019/08/19 19:05:53
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
I'm in a different country to my 40K rulebook right now, but IIRC by strict RAW datasheets represent models, not the other way around.
So you first choose the model you want to use, which is legal so long as it is "a Citadel miniature". Then you use the most up-to-date version of the datasheet that correctly represents that model.
Let's say you want to use your old pre-Primaris Tigurius model. That's a perfectly legal miniature. The correct datasheet is then the most recently published one titled 'Chief Librarian Tigurius' (which happens to be the Primaris version, but that probably doesn't matter by RAW since it's still clearly Tigurius).
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
2019/08/19 21:57:30
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Op here, my regular opponents would have no issue with me using old rules, new rules or whatever I fancied I suspect as long as we have fun.
I was posting to find out which rules are actually the correct ones to use.
Is there a rule that stats which exact models to use with which datasheet?
Would the previous codex rules still be usable as they are the last printed rules for those particular models?
Are the index versions of Khan on bike and marnius in artificial sti usable?
Stux wrote: It's not black and white. It is nuanced. This is the problem you always have in these situations. You get yelled at because you can only see these things as binary.
Because it is binary. Either you must use the correct model, or you are not required to use the correct model. There is no inbetween.
RAW is binary. How the game is played is not. When someone is asking advice for something like this, just spouting RAW does not help them at all.
Datasheets represent models. Not the other way around.
If your Calgar in Terminator Armour model has a Datasheet that describes it, use that. If your Armour Of Whateveritscalled Primaris Calgar has a Datasheet use that.
It’s not difficult to not make this a ridiculous binary matter.
Besides, if taking Calgar as the example, all three models actually have differently-named Datasheets, so even the most ardent RAW purists must agree to allow any one of them to be fielded in a current valid army. Just not more than one at the same time. Similar for Khan on his bike - has a different name, so even someone unreasonable couldn’t prevent you fielding bikeKhan.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/19 22:32:58
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
5119/08/20 00:11:51
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
As long as he has the same weapons as the Primaris model the only real issue is height, make a booster base to sit him in so he's as tall as a Primaris model, a bit of Spray Foam or cork bord should work wonders.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
2019/08/20 00:32:51
Subject: Re:Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
The proper "legal" answer is you can use either the version(s) of the character in the current Codex or an earlier "different" version of the character from he Index. You can't use an earlier version of the character from the last version of the Codex.
So, if the name on the datasheet is Chief Librarian Tigurius in both the current Codex, prior Codex, and the Index, you can only legally use the new Primaris version of the data sheet because it supersedes both of the prior versions.
I believe Calgar has three different datasheets, Primaris (Codex), Terminator (Index), and Power Armor (Index).
2019/08/20 04:14:10
Subject: Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
Would an average, reasonable person accept you using Terminator Armored Marneus Calgar to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? Yeah, probably. Would that same person allow you to use a Rhino to represent Primaris Marneus Calgar? No, probably not.
This is the Reductio Ad Absurdum version of the answer - A Terminator Marneus and a Primaris Marneus are roughly the same size and probably both on a 40mm base. While an old Tiggy could be on a 25mm base, and be much smaller than Primaris Tiggy. You mostly have to ask yourself how much "modeling for advantage" is involved in this sort of thing.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
0103/03/15 04:57:39
Subject: Re:Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
alextroy wrote: The proper "legal" answer is you can use either the version(s) of the character in the current Codex or an earlier "different" version of the character from he Index. You can't use an earlier version of the character from the last version of the Codex.
So, if the name on the datasheet is Chief Librarian Tigurius in both the current Codex, prior Codex, and the Index, you can only legally use the new Primaris version of the data sheet because it supersedes both of the prior versions.
I believe Calgar has three different datasheets, Primaris (Codex), Terminator (Index), and Power Armor (Index).
Using old Oblits on 25 mm bases is illegal, no rules have been printed for these models and they are out of print, as is bringing an old CLT as a Primaris CLT. To do anything not described in the rules is breaking the rules, flipping the table is not allowed, or using one model but the rules for another model is not allowed. You can create house rules to allow flipping the table or proxy, but that's all those are. You should be house-ruling to create a fun environment for your community, whether that be by punishing people who can't land their dice on the table, not allowing unpainted armies, allowing proxies or using custom missions.
By the book you are not allowed to do so, most communities are fine with some degree of proxy, but it's usually predicated on it being done in good faith. You want that empty base to represent a Terminator? We'll have to imagine there being a model there for purposes of LOS, you want old Tiggy to represent new Tiggy? Put a base with the correct size under him to fix any height and base size inconsistencies. You can't just make your house rules universal to every group if BCB and his group want to disallow proxies they are free to do so and that is indeed the default position, most gaming houses have a history of house rules and allowing good faith proxies I believe to be one of the most common ones. I think the good faith model is used in most tournaments for proxies and conversions, sometimes, an email to the TO is needed to establish whether your proxy is in good faith.
2019/08/20 05:34:43
Subject: Re:Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
vict0988 wrote: Using old Oblits on 25 mm bases is illegal, no rules have been printed for these models and they are out of print, as is bringing an old CLT as a Primaris CLT. To do anything not described in the rules is breaking the rules, flipping the table is not allowed, or using one model but the rules for another model is not allowed. You can create house rules to allow flipping the table or proxy, but that's all those are. You should be house-ruling to create a fun environment for your community, whether that be by punishing people who can't land their dice on the table, not allowing unpainted armies, allowing proxies or using custom missions.
By the book you are not allowed to do so, most communities are fine with some degree of proxy, but it's usually predicated on it being done in good faith. You want that empty base to represent a Terminator? We'll have to imagine there being a model there for purposes of LOS, you want old Tiggy to represent new Tiggy? Put a base with the correct size under him to fix any height and base size inconsistencies. You can't just make your house rules universal to every group if BCB and his group want to disallow proxies they are free to do so and that is indeed the default position, most gaming houses have a history of house rules and allowing good faith proxies I believe to be one of the most common ones. I think the good faith model is used in most tournaments for proxies and conversions, sometimes, an email to the TO is needed to establish whether your proxy is in good faith.
There's no rule stating you have to use GW models at all let alone the one you think correlates to a specific datasheet. There's an expectation to do so, but its not a rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/20 05:35:06
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2019/08/20 05:44:17
Subject: Re:Using old version of "Primari-sized" characters?
You are wrong. The core rules are for citadel miniatures, and those are from GW.
Warhammer 40,000 puts you in command of a force of mighty warriors and war
machines. The core rules on these pages contain the foundation for playing games
of Warhammer 40,000 with your Citadel Miniatures collection and to wage glorious
battle across the war-torn galaxy.
40,000pts
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
