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As I'm the lone Ork player of my group, I can't say much about how it feels to play against them. All I can really say is that the reason I was drawn to them is because of how straightforward they play compared to some of the other Factions. If I tell you I'm playing Orkz, you can reliably guess that my gameplan involves getting into CC as quickly as possible, probably after some ranged attacks to wear you down a bit. I don't often have to think about whether to flank someone, or what sorts of strategies I should employ, because 90% of the time the solution to all my problems is to get stuck in and krump some Gitz.

As a side note, the longest games I've played have been against Tau, surprisingly enough considering they basically only have two phases to a turn (Move and Shoot). I assume it's because of how important precise placement is for them (buffs and whatnot) and the massive amount of guns they tend to field.

 Jidmah wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Design-wise, I think it’s a bit off that their best builds are increasingly more shooty, similarly to how Space Wolves in 5th felt fundamentally misdesigned with heavily favoring shooty castles.

That's actually pretty on-spot for how orks fight in the fluff. For example in the novel Helsreach (Black Templars vs Orks, the novel), after initially bouncing off the imperal defenses, orks resort to building artillery, gargants and planes in order to whither down the walls of the hive.

"Orks are a melee army" is just an urban myth spread by people who have never bothered take a closer look at orks. Orks are pretty as much exactly as much a melee army as marines are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'd rather play against orks than eldar. Really love any game of 40k that was different from the last. Not a huge fan of being charged turn 1 and there's nothing I could do about it though. A completed charge should be the reward for good play not...haha I have this ability that lets me jump anywhere on the table every turn. While GK can do too - the GK don't also outnumber me 4-1.

Overall though I find playing against orks to be full of action and that is great. Gunlines are boring.

There is something you can do about it. Try infiltrators, with just two units of them, charging your army from deep strike becomes impossible until the ork player has wasted insane amounts of shooting to kill ten dudes holding bolters.

That doesn't work ether - it just gives the rest of their army free movement out of their deployment zone. It does stop the deep strike charge but it just invites a charge. Plus 2 units isn't enough to cover most deployments. It takes at least 3. Screening only works with actual chaff units.

I've played three games where two units of five spaced out at maximum coherency were enough to protect almost their entire deployment zone from charges. Keep in mind that they just have to protect the front, rear and side can just be locked down by spreading out.
Obviously you don't deploy them down the field, but use them as screens, since the ork player doesn't actually want to charge them as they have lost their use when you get within charge range by foot.

Slipspace wrote:
Ork players themselves are often very fun to play against, but I don't find the army to be a particularly fun gaming experience as an opponent. It's nothing to do with power level , but mainly down to their design. I'm not a fan of 40k's ever-expanding buckets of dice and Orks turn that right up to 11, which makes playing against them often turn into an exercise in patience as you wait for your opponent to roll dozens of attacks, often with a bunch of bonuses like exploding 6s, often without achieving very much. Then you have the fact that a slightly lucky roll can really swing things in the Ork player's favour, especially with shooting, because they have a few powerful weapons (like the SAG) that are usually absolutely fine but every now and then go insane. It's thematic but frustrating.

....

In my very first 40K game, I played Orks against a friend's Nurgle army. His Nurgle marines were charged by a big mass of Ork boyz, and I think I rolled 120 (130?) dice. That was just the first bit... We then did a bunch of other dice rolls to see if the hits wounded, then if the wounds could get ignored, then one other thing... Maybe two other things? I don't remember... But I easily rolled 200-250 times and I killed exactly one Nurgle Marine. We both looked at each other in stunned silence. I was so impressed at how bad that game design was, it took me literally years to play again (4 years later, and I've had a bit of fun with this edition as Imperial Guard and Eldar - but frankly it's hard to get convinced to play, since there are so many better table top war games out there. The models remain a lot of fun to paint, though!)

 pancakeonions wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Ork players themselves are often very fun to play against, but I don't find the army to be a particularly fun gaming experience as an opponent. It's nothing to do with power level , but mainly down to their design. I'm not a fan of 40k's ever-expanding buckets of dice and Orks turn that right up to 11, which makes playing against them often turn into an exercise in patience as you wait for your opponent to roll dozens of attacks, often with a bunch of bonuses like exploding 6s, often without achieving very much. Then you have the fact that a slightly lucky roll can really swing things in the Ork player's favour, especially with shooting, because they have a few powerful weapons (like the SAG) that are usually absolutely fine but every now and then go insane. It's thematic but frustrating.

....

In my very first 40K game, I played Orks against a friend's Nurgle army. His Nurgle marines were charged by a big mass of Ork boyz, and I think I rolled 120 (130?) dice. That was just the first bit... We then did a bunch of other dice rolls to see if the hits wounded, then if the wounds could get ignored, then one other thing... Maybe two other things? I don't remember... But I easily rolled 200-250 times and I killed exactly one Nurgle Marine. We both looked at each other in stunned silence. I was so impressed at how bad that game design was, it took me literally years to play again (4 years later, and I've had a bit of fun with this edition as Imperial Guard and Eldar - but frankly it's hard to get convinced to play, since there are so many better table top war games out there. The models remain a lot of fun to paint, though!)

4 years might have been 6th edition where orks got to be the worst codex for 2 editions.... yea basically it was an excersize in futility. GW decided orks shoudl roll bucketloads of dice, never actually kill anything and then get the fun of picking up boatloads of orks each turn until you were tables at the end of turn 3... it really was the worst book GW has ever produced and that is sayign something.

GW sells dice, if you need moar!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
I agree with everything that has been said.

ditto.

Gitdakka wrote:
One thing i dont like with orks is how easaly they can ignore the mpvement phase. With da jump, tellyporta, green tide strat, ere we go and evil sunz they can simply tleport and easaly charge 9 inches into melee with most of their army.

This removes most of the planning in the game as aslmost all units will be dead or tied in melee end of round 2.

The amount of dice and extra rolls is also tedious.

This is sadly a result of drastic design choices implemented as answers to a very "harsh" gameplay. The Orks need all of that in order to survive.
This gameplay is the result of an endless circle of terrible basic design choices (very basic - check how template and area weapons were messed up in 8th from day 1, to the point that units like the Leman Russ need an hotfix in order to work as intended - that's bad math, no way around it). X does not work, needs an hotfix, it gets fixed, therefore it gets killier, everything is killy, everything ELSE needs better movement and deployment options in order to survive, therefore X is now not killy enough...

Same as fantastically put here.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also the reliance on such stratagems i feel like has forced pricehikes on certain units that would not have needed it, making the unit without the stratagem virtually useless.

This said, I love Orks too much to answer "no".
Orcs too, when I used to play WHFB, especially when we teamed up in large battles with my Chaos with a friend, against Dwarves and Elves of other two friends! Animosity, well rolled, saved the day more than once! But I digress...
Also, I think that anyway the situation is way better than 7th...

This said, I love Orks too much to answer "no".
Orcs too, when I used to play WHFB, especially when we teamed up in large battles with my Chaos with a friend, against Dwarves and Elves of other two friends! Animosity, well rolled, saved the day more than once! But I digress...
Also, I think that anyway the situation is way better than 7th...

Compared to the dumpsterfire that was 7th (especially after formations got introduced) everythings good.

I also miss my chaos warriors. I am probably to long in this hobby.

I enjoy fighting orks except for the SSAG. Everything else emphasizes board control, counter charging, and controlling the momentum. Which IMO leads for a good tactical game. The only exception is the SSAG which just absolutely murders any vehicle it looks at while being cheap as chips and maintaining character protection.

SSAG is some serious cheese.

If only there were an awesome sniper assassin character I could slot into any Imperium force easily that could reliably kill the SSAG on turn 2 (assuming the SAG Mek has an oiler) and is immune to any return fire because he himself is a character.

A man can only dream.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
If only there were an awesome sniper assassin character I could slot into any Imperium force easily that could reliably kill the SSAG on turn 2 (assuming the SAG Mek has an oiler) and is immune to any return fire because he himself is a character.

A man can only dream.

why spend so much points when a special weapons squad or two can solve the issue.
It isn't like Orkz are particulary good armored

Yes but I agree with those who say rolling and rerolling tons of dice to achieve next to nothing is just tedious.

should be an option for "depends".

if you're playing against an Ork player who plays to the spirit of the army and the faction he chose and doesn't complain every 10.32 seconds about everything being rubbish and his spammed 200 mek guns not being good enough...then yes.

but like any army you'll meet "that guy" and 8th is full of "them guys".
and with 8th edition being so slow...well that's a different matter...

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Ork players have beeen great, but the army was tedious to play against. They should come with movement trays. I love the theme and look of irks though.

As an Ork player I fully agree with this. I tried the new movement trays GW came out with in my last Ork battle and it removed half the tedium of playing Orks. Now I just need a dice roller. Maybe I could make a giant popper like in the Trouble board-game, scare everyone in the store with the noise...

For some reason I imagined a 2 ft tall popper ........ Girl or possibly Mork would approve

Considering the average damage output if a SSAG is like 3.5 Damage a turn, I'm wondering what kind of bad luck you guys are having that it can delete a vehicle every turn.

And also yes I always like playing Orks if the army is painted to a basic standard it shows a lot of work if they are well done it's an exponential increase in work. So visually I enjoy the game. As for being a slow to play army because of the number of models this is an issue but one a skilled player can mitigate

 flandarz wrote:
Considering the average damage output if a SSAG is like 3.5 Damage a turn, I'm wondering what kind of bad luck you guys are having that it can delete a vehicle every turn.

People don't remember the games where it did nothing for 5 turns, they remember the one game when it one-shot a storm raven, whirlwind and a predator in two turns

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 pancakeonions wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Ork players themselves are often very fun to play against, but I don't find the army to be a particularly fun gaming experience as an opponent. It's nothing to do with power level , but mainly down to their design. I'm not a fan of 40k's ever-expanding buckets of dice and Orks turn that right up to 11, which makes playing against them often turn into an exercise in patience as you wait for your opponent to roll dozens of attacks, often with a bunch of bonuses like exploding 6s, often without achieving very much. Then you have the fact that a slightly lucky roll can really swing things in the Ork player's favour, especially with shooting, because they have a few powerful weapons (like the SAG) that are usually absolutely fine but every now and then go insane. It's thematic but frustrating.

....

In my very first 40K game, I played Orks against a friend's Nurgle army. His Nurgle marines were charged by a big mass of Ork boyz, and I think I rolled 120 (130?) dice. That was just the first bit... We then did a bunch of other dice rolls to see if the hits wounded, then if the wounds could get ignored, then one other thing... Maybe two other things? I don't remember... But I easily rolled 200-250 times and I killed exactly one Nurgle Marine. We both looked at each other in stunned silence. I was so impressed at how bad that game design was, it took me literally years to play again (4 years later, and I've had a bit of fun with this edition as Imperial Guard and Eldar - but frankly it's hard to get convinced to play, since there are so many better table top war games out there. The models remain a lot of fun to paint, though!)

4 years might have been 6th edition where orks got to be the worst codex for 2 editions.... yea basically it was an excersize in futility. GW decided orks shoudl roll bucketloads of dice, never actually kill anything and then get the fun of picking up boatloads of orks each turn until you were tables at the end of turn 3... it really was the worst book GW has ever produced and that is sayign something.

It's not even about whether it's good or not though. The general design direction for a while - turned up to 11 in 8th edition - has been MOAR DICE!!! Orks are just the worst offenders for it. GW could certainly do with some mechanism for reducing the number of dice a unit rolls. If you're getting above 30 dice for a squad of 10, you probably need to come up with some different mechanics.

Slipspace wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 pancakeonions wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Ork players themselves are often very fun to play against, but I don't find the army to be a particularly fun gaming experience as an opponent. It's nothing to do with power level , but mainly down to their design. I'm not a fan of 40k's ever-expanding buckets of dice and Orks turn that right up to 11, which makes playing against them often turn into an exercise in patience as you wait for your opponent to roll dozens of attacks, often with a bunch of bonuses like exploding 6s, often without achieving very much. Then you have the fact that a slightly lucky roll can really swing things in the Ork player's favour, especially with shooting, because they have a few powerful weapons (like the SAG) that are usually absolutely fine but every now and then go insane. It's thematic but frustrating.

....

In my very first 40K game, I played Orks against a friend's Nurgle army. His Nurgle marines were charged by a big mass of Ork boyz, and I think I rolled 120 (130?) dice. That was just the first bit... We then did a bunch of other dice rolls to see if the hits wounded, then if the wounds could get ignored, then one other thing... Maybe two other things? I don't remember... But I easily rolled 200-250 times and I killed exactly one Nurgle Marine. We both looked at each other in stunned silence. I was so impressed at how bad that game design was, it took me literally years to play again (4 years later, and I've had a bit of fun with this edition as Imperial Guard and Eldar - but frankly it's hard to get convinced to play, since there are so many better table top war games out there. The models remain a lot of fun to paint, though!)

4 years might have been 6th edition where orks got to be the worst codex for 2 editions.... yea basically it was an excersize in futility. GW decided orks shoudl roll bucketloads of dice, never actually kill anything and then get the fun of picking up boatloads of orks each turn until you were tables at the end of turn 3... it really was the worst book GW has ever produced and that is sayign something.

It's not even about whether it's good or not though. The general design direction for a while - turned up to 11 in 8th edition - has been MOAR DICE!!! Orks are just the worst offenders for it. GW could certainly do with some mechanism for reducing the number of dice a unit rolls. If you're getting above 30 dice for a squad of 10, you probably need to come up with some different mechanics.

part of it is they demand that horde armies not have high str or ap for the most part. GW could lower the attack profiles and jsut make choppas ap-1 but then otehr armies would complain that another army has basically army wide ap-1 so they just have us roll 1 mroe dice per model

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 pancakeonions wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Ork players themselves are often very fun to play against, but I don't find the army to be a particularly fun gaming experience as an opponent. It's nothing to do with power level , but mainly down to their design. I'm not a fan of 40k's ever-expanding buckets of dice and Orks turn that right up to 11, which makes playing against them often turn into an exercise in patience as you wait for your opponent to roll dozens of attacks, often with a bunch of bonuses like exploding 6s, often without achieving very much. Then you have the fact that a slightly lucky roll can really swing things in the Ork player's favour, especially with shooting, because they have a few powerful weapons (like the SAG) that are usually absolutely fine but every now and then go insane. It's thematic but frustrating.

....

In my very first 40K game, I played Orks against a friend's Nurgle army. His Nurgle marines were charged by a big mass of Ork boyz, and I think I rolled 120 (130?) dice. That was just the first bit... We then did a bunch of other dice rolls to see if the hits wounded, then if the wounds could get ignored, then one other thing... Maybe two other things? I don't remember... But I easily rolled 200-250 times and I killed exactly one Nurgle Marine. We both looked at each other in stunned silence. I was so impressed at how bad that game design was, it took me literally years to play again (4 years later, and I've had a bit of fun with this edition as Imperial Guard and Eldar - but frankly it's hard to get convinced to play, since there are so many better table top war games out there. The models remain a lot of fun to paint, though!)

4 years might have been 6th edition where orks got to be the worst codex for 2 editions.... yea basically it was an excersize in futility. GW decided orks shoudl roll bucketloads of dice, never actually kill anything and then get the fun of picking up boatloads of orks each turn until you were tables at the end of turn 3... it really was the worst book GW has ever produced and that is sayign something.

It's not even about whether it's good or not though. The general design direction for a while - turned up to 11 in 8th edition - has been MOAR DICE!!! Orks are just the worst offenders for it. GW could certainly do with some mechanism for reducing the number of dice a unit rolls. If you're getting above 30 dice for a squad of 10, you probably need to come up with some different mechanics.

part of it is they demand that horde armies not have high str or ap for the most part. GW could lower the attack profiles and jsut make choppas ap-1 but then otehr armies would complain that another army has basically army wide ap-1 so they just have us roll 1 mroe dice per model

I wish it was balanced in a way that one attack dice per model was enough. It's just too many dice now. Imagine 30 slugga boys just get 30 attacks instead of 90, but they can do 3 dmg each that spills over. Same net dmg against all targets.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

part of it is they demand that horde armies not have high str or ap for the most part. GW could lower the attack profiles and jsut make choppas ap-1 but then otehr armies would complain that another army has basically army wide ap-1 so they just have us roll 1 mroe dice per model

No, what would actually happen is worse. They would give to their favourite army outright army-wide AP-1. To the less loved ones stratagems for temporary -1. Then everyone would complain that armor is worth nothing, therefore GW should lower the point costs of many models. GW complies, now we need more models to kill the additional models of the target. Let's hope that in 1-2 codices GW lowers the cost of the boyz...

And so on.

Gitdakka wrote:
I wish it was balanced in a way that one attack dice per model was enough. It's just too many dice now. Imagine 30 slugga boys just get 30 attacks instead of 90, but they can do 3 dmg each that spills over. Same net dmg against all targets.

I really like that idea. But I don't think that melee boyz are the biggest offenders here, as 30 slugga boyz actually do quite some damage in combat and combat doesn't happen as often. Plus you usually don't have exploding sixes in combat, as goff are one of the less used cultures.

What's annoying are all the high RoF units which get a ton of dice, then roll another dice for one third of them, with two thirds of them missing.

Just roll the shots of a dakka jet (BS4, 18x S6 AP-1) against a unit of your choice, re-rolling all ones and exploding sixes, you'll instantly get the problem.

Well you could cut the whole crap of DAKKA^3 and except the always hits on 6 by giving boyz bs4+ back.

Oh noes, ORKZA SuPpoSed to NoT hIt GaK!

Not Online!!! wrote:
by giving boyz bs4+ back.

Boy this guy is REALLY old...

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
by giving boyz bs4+ back.

Boy this guy is REALLY old...

not that old that i wittnessed it, but old enough to meet disgruntled skarboyz that still remember.
And instead of the whole freebota shenanigans and Dakka^3 why not fething drop the premise, accept the pricehike that orks got and give them bs 4+.
All would be happy. No more exploding dice needed, clear consciece fething ruling. And best off all maybee a fething gameplan that doesn't revolve around tellyporta stupidity.

Can never go wrong with Orks.

I think Orks should be excellent in Apocalypse.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
by giving boyz bs4+ back.

Boy this guy is REALLY old...

not that old that i wittnessed it, but old enough to meet disgruntled skarboyz that still remember.
And instead of the whole freebota shenanigans and Dakka^3 why not fething drop the premise, accept the pricehike that orks got and give them bs 4+.
All would be happy. No more exploding dice needed, clear consciece fething ruling. And best off all maybee a fething gameplan that doesn't revolve around tellyporta stupidity.

Jokes aside, I think you are right, mind it. I did not play Orks in 3rd but IIRC trukk lists worked back then, and Orks had different combinations of boyz as troops (like tankbustas, stikkbommas, burna boyz)...

I personally think that the particular corner of hell reserved for tfg's involves spending all ertinity playing 8th orks v guard footslogging lists.