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Okay, so there's a mention, I think in Know No Fear, where Guilliman has a list of Primarchs that, if everything hits the fan, he could rely on to overcome whatever adversity faces them. One of them is definitely Ferrus Manus. Who are the other ones? Probably Dorn is one.
It's kind of dumb fluff tho. Ferrus, maybe, Sangy, sure, but including incompetent furry (who can't even be bothered to doublecheck if some Horus lackey showing up with 'totally legit new orders' is really worth listening to especially when head of the Custodes tells him to stick to Emperor's words, not go all genocidal on iffy hearsay) and masochist who managed to lose every single battle of Heresy he was involved in (then nearly caused second Heresy) is a bit rich. Where is Perturabo (who perfectly performed most thankless of tasks without question for centuries) or say Khan/Vulkan?
just because Russ got fooled by Horus doesn't magicly make him incompetant. and his legion was noted as beiung pretty solid. as for Dorn, I'm sorry I must have missed the part in the lore when Horus conquered Terra.
the entire defensive stragety was to old out until the Ultramarines could come.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: just because Russ got fooled by Horus doesn't magicly make him incompetant.
When head of the Custodes tells you to shut up and follow the orders Emperor given you, and you follow some Sons of Horus captain who shown up from nowhere despite not even knowing about your supposedly secret operation, then I really don't know if you're worth being called loyal or sane. Especially seeing the whole mess with Magnus was his fault in the first place, seeing he went "all psykers are evil except mine because these are totally a wizards or something, not psykers, bro".
As far as 'savage' legions go, I'd rate Khan far higher than Russ, if simply because he has the sense to not listen to various iffy messages telling him to do stuff but actually takes a moment to figure out what is going on and takes best possible decision.
BrianDavion wrote: as for Dorn, I'm sorry I must have missed the part in the lore when Horus conquered Terra.
the entire defensive stragety was to old out until the Ultramarines could come.
Dorn looks horrible in Forge World fluff. He manages to lose nearly won Battle of Phall despite not even being there, hands to Horus one of the biggest Forge Worlds (Xana) on silver platter wasting priceless ships and technologies to merely steal a few big tanks, cannot retake Mars for years despite it being right in the middle of his army, giving Horus perfect base in solar system, kills Alpharius (realizing too late he was sabotaging Horus so was probably loyal, and in any way, was worth far more alive than dead), then finally loses siege forcing Emperor to go suicide himself in last ditch gambit. I can't recall one thing he did correctly in Heresy, not even Angron has such a record.
Irbis wrote: It's Where is Perturabo (who perfectly performed most thankless of tasks without question for centuries) or say Khan/Vulkan?
Big G is obviously just a good judge of character and recognitised Pert for the dipstick he was. He didn't pick a single traitor for his chosen few even though he considered Horus to be a friend. He's said to have admired Khan but considered him too flighty and not all together trustworthy. On the whole he picked Legions and brothers renowned for their stolid and dogged natures with a core of courage and honour.
Horus was warmaster and his word had the weight of the Emperor's behind it. Even after getting that order, Russ did try to get Magnus to surrender peacefully but for various reasons beyond his control that didn't work out.
As for the Siege of Terra maybe if you actually read Soalr War and had reading comprehension you'd realize that the entire battle stragety was to hold out until the Ultramarines could provide reinforcements sufficant to lift the siege. and guess what that's exactly what happened. funny thing about sieges, you have a limited amount of men and stores, and are trapped in a fortified position. your enemy can potentially bring in fresh supplies etc. the ability to win a fight like that is near impossiable if the sieging force aren;t idiots. most sieges are won by the defender when the defender gets reinforcements sufficant to break the siege
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Irbis wrote: It's kind of dumb fluff tho. Ferrus, maybe, Sangy, sure, but including incompetent furry (who can't even be bothered to doublecheck if some Horus lackey showing up with 'totally legit new orders' is really worth listening to especially when head of the Custodes tells him to stick to Emperor's words, not go all genocidal on iffy hearsay) and masochist who managed to lose every single battle of Heresy he was involved in (then nearly caused second Heresy) is a bit rich. Where is Perturabo (who perfectly performed most thankless of tasks without question for centuries) or say Khan/Vulkan?
By the throne, a man after my own heart! Took the words right out of my mouth about both Russ and Dorn.
Perturabo's problem was that he was too angry and ended up pushing his brothers away to the point where almost everyone disliked him. I've taken leadership courses, and one of the best quotes I can remember is:
"Being right isn't enough. You can be right all day long and it doesn't matter one bit if nobody wants to listen to you. You have to present your 'Rightness' in a way that is palatable to people, in a way they will accept."
Perturabo had unique skills, and I do believe he was a better siege specialist (DEFINITELY offensively, and probably defensively than Dorn). However, that doesn't mean crap when Dorn (literally Dorn of all people) is more likable than you. Perturabo let Dorn get under his skin and it was the end of him because he "anger spiraled" out after that.
BrianDavion wrote: just because Russ got fooled by Horus doesn't magicly make him incompetant. and his legion was noted as beiung pretty solid. as for Dorn, I'm sorry I must have missed the part in the lore when Horus conquered Terra.
the entire defensive stragety was to old out until the Ultramarines could come.
LOL
"My strategy is to totally wait for someone else to come save me! I'm a tactical genius guys."
The battle had been lost and the inner palace had been breached, the only reason why the traitors withdrew was because Horus had been slain by the emperor. Make no mistake, the Siege of Terra would have gone to the traitors had Horus slain the emperor instead.
Dorn's objective wasn't to kick the traitors off of Terra, he didn't have the men for that and he shouldn't get credit for stalling long enough for the other legions to get there and do the heavy lifting.
Dorn's objective was to keep the traitors out of the palace and protect the emperor, and at that he FAILED.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Horus was warmaster and his word had the weight of the Emperor's behind it. Even after getting that order, Russ did try to get Magnus to surrender peacefully but for various reasons beyond his control that didn't work out.
Russ was too blinded by his hatred of Magnus to see that the new orders from Horus were suspicious (because they directly contradicted the Emperor's original orders), or to heed the advice of Captain Valdor to stick to the emperor's original orders. The hypocrisy of also having psykers while condemning Magnus for breaking the edict is icing on the cake.
I am absolutely convinced that the only reason Russ and the wolves were not censured for Prospero was because the Heresy broke out in full shortly afterwards and there were bigger things to worry about.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/25 21:43:05
w1zard wrote:"My strategy is to totally wait for someone else to come save me! I'm a tactical genius guys."
No-one's saying he's a tactical genius, but as a strategy, this is exactly the outcome the defenders in any siege are playing for - hold the enemy for long enough that your allies can break that siege, or they run out of resources and find the siege untenable.
In this situation, the traitors could have had infinite resources, if it weren't for the fact that they were trying to take out Terra as early as possible, and before reinforcements from larger, more threatening Legions could have caught him in between a hammer and anvil.
I mean, the situation Horus would have found himself in would have been not too dissimilar to the Battle of Alesia, where Julius Caesar was caught between the siege he was leading, and the relief force aiding the trapped Gauls. The difference is that Caesar succeeded, and it's unlikely Horus would.
The battle had been lost and the inner palace had been breached, the only reason why the traitors withdrew was because Horus had been slain by the emperor. Make no mistake, the Siege of Terra would have gone to the traitors had Horus slain the emperor instead.
And the only reason Horus lowered his shields (at least, in old fluff), was because the siege was still taking too long, even with the inner palace being breached (don't forget, the loyalists were still surviving even inside the inner palace - breaching alone doesn't mean that the defenders were doomed). Horus lowered his shields to bait the Emperor out and finish the siege before aid could arrive. The Emperor, for whatever reason, took the bait, and they confronted eachother.
Dorn's objective wasn't to kick the traitors off of Terra, he didn't have the men for that and he shouldn't get credit for stalling long enough for the other legions to get there and do the heavy lifting.
Dorn's objective was to keep the traitors out of the palace and protect the emperor, and at that he FAILED.
Dorn's objective was to defeat Horus - if that is achieved by stalling and waiting for your allies to relieve you, so be it. Keeping the traitors out of the palace was the main plan for ensuring that you were still around to see your allies relieve you, but it wasn't the sole objective.
Dorn could have succeeded harder, but to say he didn't at all is rather shallow.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Horus lowered his shields to bait the Emperor out and finish the siege before aid could arrive. The Emperor, for whatever reason, took the bait, and they confronted eachother.
The emperor took the bait because the defenders were losing and he knew that he had to confront Horus and end this one way or another. Both sides believed that they were going to potentially lose, and so took the gamble.
Again no, it was to keep the traitors out of the palace and to protect the emperor. Dorn did not have the men to defeat Horus.
Yes sieges are usually ended when reinforcements come to relieve the defenders, but the success of the defense is measured in how intact what you are defending is at the end of it all. Whether that be in materiel, territory, or people.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/25 22:02:07
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Horus lowered his shields to bait the Emperor out and finish the siege before aid could arrive. The Emperor, for whatever reason, took the bait, and they confronted eachother.
The emperor took the bait because the defenders were losing and he knew that he had to confront Horus and end this one way or another. Both sides believed that they were going to potentially lose, and so took the gamble.
Exactly - both sides were at risk. The loyalists were being worn down by the traitors, but the traitors were not winning quickly enough.
When part of Dorn's strategy was delaying and waiting for reinforcements, and he pulled that off, he succeeded at his strategy.
Again no, it was to keep the traitors out of the palace and to protect the emperor. Dorn did not have the men to defeat Horus.
Which is why he was delaying.
The palace was not important in and of itself. It was important to protecting the Emperor and defeating Horus - which could be done if Dorn delayed and bought time for the rescue fleet.
Yes sieges are usually ended when reinforcements come to relieve the defenders, but the success of the defense is measured in how intact what you are defending is at the end of it all. Whether that be in materiel, territory, or people.
And the Imperium still endures, even 10,000 years on. It was a victory. Pyrrhic, yes, but it *was* a victory.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And the Imperium still endures, even 10,000 years on. It was a victory. Pyrrhic, yes, but it *was* a victory.
It was a victory because the emperor slew Horus, not because of Dorn's actions. Was Dorn stalling? Absolutely. Was it working? Sort of. Sorry, Dorn doesn't get brownie points for doing what any competent defender would have done in his position. The battle was NOT won on the back of Dorn's heroic defense, he was losing and the emperor stepped in to stop a total defeat. Would Dorn have won had the emperor not dueled Horus and instead the battle be allowed to play out? We don't know and will never know because it was close enough that both sides believed they might lose, and it was only close because there were other legions coming to save Dorn's butt. Saying "Dorn won" because the emperor killed Horus and turned the tide, or because the ultramarines and wolves saved his bacon gives Dorn undue credit because Dorn had nothing to do with what happened.
So, we can only judge Dorn based on the battle alone and not the OUTCOME of the battle which he had very little to do with. The palace lay in ruins and the emperor was mortally wounded, I would hardly call that a "victory" for a man charged with the defense of Terra and of the emperor. Yes, the Imperium won, but DORN lost, I don't know why people aren't getting the nuance of what I am pointing out. Dorn even admits that he failed. This loss shook his confidence so badly it was the basis of all the angst that came later. When asked if the defenses of Terra could withstand a siege from the Iron Warriors Dorn said "without question" and boasted multiple times that the palace on Terra was impregnable. He was WRONG.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/25 23:20:11
When asked if the defenses of Terra could withstand a siege from the Iron Warriors Dorn said "without question"
and he was absolutely right. remember Dorn wasn't holding Terra against the Iron Warriors. He was holding Terra against the Iron Warriors, the Sons of Horus, the night lords, the World Eaters, The Word Bearers, The 1k Sons, The Death Guard, The Emperor's Children and the Alpha Legion. ohh with Titan, Army and Skitarii support.. ohh and the support of Deamons (something BTW Dorn had no idea about when he commented that the Palace could hold out against the Iron Warriors.) thats pretty impressive
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Nah, honestly, I can't see it that way (and I'm not a Dorn fanboy, if that sounds biased). The only way the victory condition you describe arose was because Dorn's denial strategy was working, prompting Horus to gamble and try to end the siege before he was surrounded.
Dorn did the sensible strategy, it paid off in the end (forcing Horus to bait the Emperor, which ended up working), and ultimately, the palace was an acceptable loss, compared to the utter defeat of mankind.
I don't see the siege as a loss for Dorn. His angst, as far as I interpret it, is the loss of the Emperor - but that's something which Dorn had no actual autonomy or control over, as it was the Emperor who chose to fight Horus single-handedly.
I'm not saying that Dorn "won", but I am saying his strategy was successful.
When asked if the defenses of Terra could withstand a siege from the Iron Warriors Dorn said "without question"
and he was absolutely right. remember Dorn wasn't holding Terra against the Iron Warriors. He was holding Terra against the Iron Warriors, the Sons of Horus, the night lords, the World Eaters, The Word Bearers, The 1k Sons, The Death Guard, The Emperor's Children and the Alpha Legion. ohh with Titan, Army and Skitarii support.. ohh and the support of Deamons (something BTW Dorn had no idea about when he commented that the Palace could hold out against the Iron Warriors.) thats pretty impressive
And the Fists had the White Scars, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Blood Angels, three titan legions + skitarri, and the solar auxillia to back them up. So what? "Impregnable" the palace was not, and Horus put Perturabo and Forrix in charge of cracking the palace's defenses, which included directing other traitor legions where to attack.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm not saying that Dorn "won", but I am saying his strategy was successful.
If by "successful" you mean that the Imperium ended up winning a horribly phyrric "victory" because of factors totally unrelated to Dorn's tactical acumen, and that any Imperial commander with an ounce of common sense to "stall them until reinforcements arrive" could have done equally well in the same position then yes I agree with you.
On the other hand there is the fact that Dorn bragged that nothing could penetrate Terra's defenses (of which he personally designed himself), and that it was his sword duty to protect the emperor at all costs, which he utterly failed to do.
For what it is worth, I will admit that Dorn is pretty low on my list of favorite primarchs but he definitely is not my least favorite either. I just don't think he did all of that much, and he thought way too highly of himself because of his position as Castellan of Sol. That arrogance ended up costing him. I will give him that he killed Alpharius in single combat, but that really isn't that impressive considering that Alpharius was never known for being a noteworthy duelist.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/26 00:58:11
BrianDavion wrote: just because Russ got fooled by Horus doesn't magicly make him incompetant.
When head of the Custodes tells you to shut up and follow the orders Emperor given you, and you follow some Sons of Horus captain who shown up from nowhere despite not even knowing about your supposedly secret operation, then I really don't know if you're worth being called loyal or sane. Especially seeing the whole mess with Magnus was his fault in the first place, seeing he went "all psykers are evil except mine because these are totally a wizards or something, not psykers, bro".
As far as 'savage' legions go, I'd rate Khan far higher than Russ, if simply because he has the sense to not listen to various iffy messages telling him to do stuff but actually takes a moment to figure out what is going on and takes best possible decision.
BrianDavion wrote: as for Dorn, I'm sorry I must have missed the part in the lore when Horus conquered Terra.
the entire defensive stragety was to old out until the Ultramarines could come.
Dorn looks horrible in Forge World fluff. He manages to lose nearly won Battle of Phall despite not even being there, hands to Horus one of the biggest Forge Worlds (Xana) on silver platter wasting priceless ships and technologies to merely steal a few big tanks, cannot retake Mars for years despite it being right in the middle of his army, giving Horus perfect base in solar system, kills Alpharius (realizing too late he was sabotaging Horus so was probably loyal, and in any way, was worth far more alive than dead), then finally loses siege forcing Emperor to go suicide himself in last ditch gambit. I can't recall one thing he did correctly in Heresy, not even Angron has such a record.
There are two different ways that this is written, one says Horus ‘updated’ Russ and the Wolves’ orders regarding Magnus, the other claims he intercepted them and changed them.
If the former is the truth The Warmaster had the power to tell Russ his orders have changed and Russ has no real reason to doubt him, especially considering Horus LIKED Magnus. No matter how highly ranking the Custode is The Warmaster outranks him.
If the intercept is the truth of it Russ never received orders telling him to collect more of Magnus than his head.
The reason Girlyman favoured Russ over Kahn or any of the Primarchs who would turn traitor is because Russ is predictable. Russ and the 30K Wolves could be relied on to follow a plan - once they agreed to it. The 30K Wolves were guilty of moronic heroics but it was still a predictable and accountable factor as far as Guilliman was concerned, where Kahn and the White Scars regardless of plans could either get creative and go around a problem or get bold and try to force their way through poking their ego was pretty much guaranteed that The Space Wolves would push.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
The Khan was also relatively recently discovered and his Legion was quite small. The Khan turned into one of his bigger allies down the road when the Codex came into play, after all.
Dorn and Russ were both well respect primarchs with good track records during the Crusade, and both could be relied on to do their parts of any plan that was agreed on.
I think all of the Dauntless Few pretty much the ones Guilliman considered himself closest too (he worked with Ferrus Manus, for example, in designing the Sicaran), and he respected them. I don't think he had the same respect for someone like Perturabo, especially after Perturabo decimated his own Legion.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
I suspect Gulliman also with his dauntless few identified Legions based on their strengths and weaknesses and where the ones he belvied would compliment each other the best, their skills shoring up weak points, adressing flaws and over all working best together. being excluded from the dauntless few doesn't mean Gulliman thought the Legion sucked, just thought it may not have nesscarily worked along side a handful of chosen Legions to produce what he thought was the "Best force" and Gulliman had his own biases there. we know for a fact he didn't favor a long drawn out gurellia campaign from his conflict with Alpharius so he likely didn't see the raven guard as fitting in here. Just for example. the white scars meanwhile where all about speed speed speed, and, according to the novels had something of a reputation for being recklessly fast. Something even the Scars began to aknowledge as a weakness to address
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Dakka Wolf wrote: There are two different ways that this is written, one says Horus ‘updated’ Russ and the Wolves’ orders regarding Magnus, the other claims he intercepted them and changed them.
Source on the second? Every account I have ever read about the subject had the emperor ordering Russ in person to bring Magnus back to Terra "in chains", and sent Valdor along with a Sister's of Silence retinue to see it through.
Valdor protested heavily when Russ loaded up on exterminatus weapons after talking with Horus to the point where Russ threatened to throw Valdor out of his fleet, basically saying "I'm doing this and if you don't like it you can leave".
Spoiler:
“Valdor remained unmoved. ‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’ Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me..." -Magisterium
What really gets me though, is when Russ finally realizes that Horus tricked him into wiping out the thousand sons... instead of feeling remorse for wiping out a loyalist legion, he seems to be more angry over the fact that Horus manipulated him. Almost like he's angrier over being conned rather than the fate of his follow space marines.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/09/03 08:49:51
I hunted and hunted and finally found it, on ID4CHAN...which is kind of like quoting Wikipedia, only worse.
Russ was never going to feel bad for what he did to Magnus, Russ always believed the Thousand Sons were getting into bed with demons with no protection and when he brought it up his opinion was written off for being the superstitions of a dumb savage - Russ wanted Magnus’ scalp for that alone.
When the Wolves assaulted Prospero Russ saw every single one of his accusations being verified - Demons joined the battle.
The next thing I’d point out is that it’s possible Russ was well aware he hadn’t killed Magnus, he broke his back but ultimately got robbed of the finishing blow when Magnus got sucked into the Warp.
A broken back is not the end of life in Russ’ timeline, a broken back is an artificial spine or a Dreadbinding.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I hunted and hunted and finally found it, on ID4CHAN...which is kind of like quoting Wikipedia, only worse.
Can you quote it?
Dakka Wolf wrote: Russ was never going to feel bad for what he did to Magnus, Russ always believed the Thousand Sons were getting into bed with demons with no protection and when he brought it up his opinion was written off for being the superstitions of a dumb savage - Russ wanted Magnus’ scalp for that alone.
I think it was more like Russ didn't like what he didn't understand, and he saw using psychic powers to win a fight somehow dishonorable. You have to remember, that compared to Magnus (the most intelligent primarch with only Perturabo as a potential rival), Russ WAS a dumb savage, even if he was far smarter than he pretended to be (and I think he played up the dumb savage routine a bit). Russ ultimately ended up being right in his warnings, but how did you expect Magnus to react when someone who has no knowledge of sorcery starts lecturing him on how it should be done?
Dakka Wolf wrote: When the Wolves assaulted Prospero Russ saw every single one of his accusations being verified - Demons joined the battle.
IIRC the sons only summoned daemons when they realized they were losing, and knew that if they didn't they would all be killed. They had fought cleanly before that point. Kind of like a "better damned, then dead for crimes we didn't commit".
You also have to take into account that the edict at Nikaea was fundamentally unfair to the thousand sons. Psychic power was their ONLY defining feature. Telling the thousand sons that they all could never use their psychic powers again and had to become "normal" marines is like telling the wolves that they could never use their enhanced sense of smell again and that they were prohibited from drinking alcohol ever again. How well do you think that would have went over with the wolves?
Making it worse was the fact that Russ himself never followed the edict, he had rune priests the entire time and thought that the edict shouldn't apply to him. Compounding it further, after the emperor was put on the throne the remaining loyalist primarchs all decided to ignore the edict at nikaea because they realized how bad an idea it had been, essentially committing the same crime they all condemned Magnus for.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/05 04:26:07
Dakka Wolf wrote: There are two different ways that this is written, one says Horus ‘updated’ Russ and the Wolves’ orders regarding Magnus, the other claims he intercepted them and changed them.
Source on the second? Every account I have ever read about the subject had the emperor ordering Russ in person to bring Magnus back to Terra "in chains", and sent Valdor along with a Sister's of Silence retinue to see it through.
Valdor protested heavily when Russ loaded up on exterminatus weapons after talking with Horus to the point where Russ threatened to throw Valdor out of his fleet, basically saying "I'm doing this and if you don't like it you can leave".
Spoiler:
“Valdor remained unmoved. ‘Even now, I would see him taken to Terra, if it could be done. I would wish to know why.’ Russ laughed, a coarse bark that sent more spittle flying into Valdor’s faceplate. ‘You’re still clinging to that? Ha!’ He turned away, swinging his greatblade casually. ‘I’ve known since I first saw this world that we would face one another. I did not come here for prisoners, Constantin. If my Father had truly wished for such, He would not have sent me..." -Magisterium
What really gets me though, is when Russ finally realizes that Horus tricked him into wiping out the thousand sons... instead of feeling remorse for wiping out a loyalist legion, he seems to be more angry over the fact that Horus manipulated him. Almost like he's angrier over being conned rather than the fate of his follow space marines.
I thiiiink that one of the FWHH books mentioned it actually. to be honest the situation gets a bit silly the minute the custodes where brought it. the story makes a lot more sense if the order was passed to Horus who then passed it down the chain of command to Russ
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 05:39:11
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
And then you have The Outcast Dead, where Horus is already known to be a traitor before Russ is even sent to Prospero. Which makes Russ accepting new orders from Horus a bit... unlikely.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Duskweaver wrote: And then you have The Outcast Dead, where Horus is already known to be a traitor before Russ is even sent to Prospero. Which makes Russ accepting new orders from Horus a bit... unlikely.
that novel is wrong then as every other novels been clear on the timeline
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Outcast Dead has a whole host of continuity snarls is the poster book for have your writers talk to each other if your going to do a collaborative series with more than one primary author.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I hunted and hunted and finally found it, on ID4CHAN...which is kind of like quoting Wikipedia, only worse.
Can you quote it?
Horus intercepted the message and re-worded it to order Russ to destroy Magnus and his Thousand Sons, and interestingly Russ found when they arrived at Prospero he didn't want to do that. He decided to go against the orders he thought were legit, and instead detain him and his legion so that they could be transported to Terra (ironically doing exactly what his legit orders were by going against what he thought they were), but when Magnus refused to answer the phone and the Thousand Sons' calls were all being blocked by he Primarch he became more and more annoyed, and eventually he was pissed off enough that he and the Space Wolves carried out a class-10 clusterfucking on Prospero.
ID4CHAN - Leman Russ.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Russ was never going to feel bad for what he did to Magnus, Russ always believed the Thousand Sons were getting into bed with demons with no protection and when he brought it up his opinion was written off for being the superstitions of a dumb savage - Russ wanted Magnus’ scalp for that alone.
I think it was more like Russ didn't like what he didn't understand, and he saw using psychic powers to win a fight somehow dishonorable. You have to remember, that compared to Magnus (the most intelligent primarch with only Perturabo as a potential rival), Russ WAS a dumb savage, even if he was far smarter than he pretended to be (and I think he played up the dumb savage routine a bit). Russ ultimately ended up being right in his warnings, but how did you expect Magnus to react when someone who has no knowledge of sorcery starts lecturing him on how it should be done?
For the hyper intelligent Magnus was a sucker, he even failed to convince a pair of Psykers that the benefits of Psykers outweighed their downsides, couldn’t even win a debate with a stupid, superstitious, hairy, hypocrite.
Russ wasn’t ignorant of sorcery, he just didn’t see it as honorable, his issue became big when he witnessed the skin change and thought the Sons were summoning demons and becoming demons themselves due to their lack of safety protocols. The Wolves’ Rune Priests and the Scars’ Lightning Priests filter their psychic exposure through an excess of safety talismans, the Sons use none.
Dakka Wolf wrote: When the Wolves assaulted Prospero Russ saw every single one of his accusations being verified - Demons joined the battle.
IIRC the sons only summoned daemons when they realized they were losing, and knew that if they didn't they would all be killed. They had fought cleanly before that point. Kind of like a "better damned, then dead for crimes we didn't commit".
They did commit the crimes they were accused of, every single one of them.
They did summon demons - Russ was wrong in thinking that the Flesh Change were demons but the Sons were summoning demons of Tzeentch who they believed were benevolent warp spirits, just handing over warp lore because they were friendly.
They did break the Edicts of Nikea - Doesn’t matter if they weren’t the only ones, they still did it.
They did break the Emperor’s new toy - Might have only been Magnus who did it but Magnus was the only one the Wolves were after, the Thousand Sons just refused to get out of the way and prevented the Wolves taking him.
You also have to take into account that the edict at Nikaea was fundamentally unfair to the thousand sons. Psychic power was their ONLY defining feature. Telling the thousand sons that they all could never use their psychic powers again and had to become "normal" marines is like telling the wolves that they could never use their enhanced sense of smell again and that they were prohibited from drinking alcohol ever again. How well do you think that would have went over with the wolves?
Aww, you don’t feel snowflakey enough? Guiliman, Dorn, Perturabo and El Johnson can console you...except the Lion wanted Magnus’ censure more than he cared about psykers - I’m going to have to find out what he did to earn that one’s ire, did Magnus sucker punch him too?
The Wolves’ reply would probably be “Yeah, sure I’ll just plug my nose up until my sense of smell is as bad as yours”.
The Wolves were made to be monsters, the Thousand Sons were made to be Scholars, Russ put a leash of alcohol and hero worship on the Wolves so they were only monsters when they were supposed to be. Magnus not only failed to leash his scholars to study the approved subjects he encouraged them to study banned one. ONE banned subject and that was the one they just had to study - real smart.
Making it worse was the fact that Russ himself never followed the edict, he had rune priests the entire time and thought that the edict shouldn't apply to him. Compounding it further, after the emperor was put on the throne the remaining loyalist primarchs all decided to ignore the edict at nikaea because they realized how bad an idea it had been, essentially committing the same crime they all condemned Magnus for.
Russ was given an out by Kahn, who ironically enough was on Magnus’ side of the debate, Rune Priests, like Thunder Priests weren’t combat psykers during 30k they fell into a category similar to Astropaths.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Horus intercepted the message and re-worded it to order Russ to destroy Magnus and his Thousand Sons, and interestingly Russ found when they arrived at Prospero he didn't want to do that. He decided to go against the orders he thought were legit, and instead detain him and his legion so that they could be transported to Terra (ironically doing exactly what his legit orders were by going against what he thought they were), but when Magnus refused to answer the phone and the Thousand Sons' calls were all being blocked by he Primarch he became more and more annoyed, and eventually he was pissed off enough that he and the Space Wolves carried out a class-10 clusterfucking on Prospero.
ID4CHAN - Leman Russ.
That is not an actual quote, I mean quote from the passage or at least tell me the novel that this came from. Quoting from wikipedia and 1d4chan are fine as long as you include the original sources.
Dakka Wolf wrote: For the hyper intelligent Magnus was a sucker, he even failed to convince a pair of Psykers that the benefits of Psykers outweighed their downsides, couldn’t even win a debate with a stupid, superstitious, hairy, hypocrite.
Russ wasn’t ignorant of sorcery, he just didn’t see it as honorable, his issue became big when he witnessed the skin change and thought the Sons were summoning demons and becoming demons themselves due to their lack of safety protocols. The Wolves’ Rune Priests and the Scars’ Lightning Priests filter their psychic exposure through an excess of safety talismans, the Sons use none.
Firstly, the emperor had already made up his mind to ban psychic powers before the trial at nikaea had even started. Magnus did not fail to convince the emperor because the emperor had already made up his mind: That nobody was responsible enough to use psychic powers except him. The emperor never claimed that the downsides outweighed the benefits, merely that he didn't think that anyone else except for him was responsible enough to use them.
Secondly, Russ was absolutely ignorant of sorcery and psychic powers. Enough so to delude himself that rune priests weren't "psykers" in his mind. The edict at nikaea didn't just ban the dangerous stuff the 1k sons were doing, it banned ALL psychic powers. Nobody followed it except for maybe Dorn and Guilliman. Russ broke the edict, as well as Sanguinius and Khan, just not as egregiously as Magnus. Safety talismans or not, a psyker is a psyker.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They did break the Emperor’s new toy - Might have only been Magnus who did it but Magnus was the only one the Wolves were after, the Thousand Sons just refused to get out of the way and prevented the Wolves taking him.
What? You are incorrect. Russ had no intention of taking Magnus nor any of the 1k sons alive, apart from a brief moment where his conscience seemed to get the better of him and he attempted to parley with Magnus through Casper Hawser. The fact that he loaded up on exterminates weapons (planetkillers) after talking with Horus proves that. Relevant quote below.
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils. This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca...
Source: A Thousand Sons (Novel)
Dakka Wolf wrote: The Wolves were made to be monsters, the Thousand Sons were made to be Scholars, Russ put a leash of alcohol and hero worship on the Wolves so they were only monsters when they were supposed to be. Magnus not only failed to leash his scholars to study the approved subjects he encouraged them to study banned one. ONE banned subject and that was the one they just had to study - real smart.
What part of "all psychic powers were banned" aren't you getting?
Making it worse was the fact that Russ himself never followed the edict, he had rune priests the entire time and thought that the edict shouldn't apply to him. Compounding it further, after the emperor was put on the throne the remaining loyalist primarchs all decided to ignore the edict at nikaea because they realized how bad an idea it had been, essentially committing the same crime they all condemned Magnus for.
Russ was given an out by Kahn, who ironically enough was on Magnus’ side of the debate, Rune Priests, like Thunder Priests weren’t combat psykers during 30k they fell into a category similar to Astropaths.
No, they aren't and that is a flimsy justification, as well as being inaccurate. Rune priests and Thunder priests both participate in combat just like every other marine does, and still practices using and studying their psychic powers. Again, the edict at nikaea didn't just ban the crazy stuff, it banned the use of ALL psychic powers by the space marine legions.
Dorn even called out Russ on his hypocrisy after the heresy broke out. Relevant quote below.
Spoiler:
'I think you are reckless. I think you are in danger of treading the same road as Magnus, or Lorgar, cavorting with priests. Where has your conviction gone? Where is the wolf who spoke at Nikaea?'
This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. 'Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?'
'You express regret for that now?' said Dorn. 'Last I heard you I were crowing about it.'
'I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did. When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus' sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.'
Dorn sighed sadly, and looked down at his slate of plans. 'And that is Magnus talking.'
Sanguinius roused himself from his miserable introspection. 'Do you believe you were wrong at Nikaea, Leman?'
'Perhaps,' said Russ honestly. 'But I was not wrong to call for Magnus' sanction, nor was I wrong to call for the suppression of the Librarius as it was. Who knows where Magnus' path would have led had he been let alone? He might have won the war, but would we then have had another Horus to contend with, or maybe two? The Librarius could have proven as poisonous as the thrice-damned lodges.'
'The great proponent of the Nikaean edict, who kept his own sorcerers. You have many qualities, my brother,' said Dorn. 'I never thought to say hypocrisy was one.'
-Scars (Novel)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/06 22:02:53
