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 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.

Yes, but around the time the Eldar Flyer was release, several FW only models had been brought over to GW plastic. Nid Trygon, Baneblade, Stompa, etc. So, at the time, it just seem inevitable that the Nightwing would AT LEAST be 1 of the builds in the dual kit.

-

Or FW is going to die soon and GW moves on not giving us any of the models. B.c of lack of support in 8th, and that insane price hike, along with 3rd party being at worst only about 20% less quality in materials (most are just as good, if not better, i have seen better sadly) for a 1/5 of the cost! Less and less are even buying from FW. I honestly can see FW going away in the next few years unless something changes.

I hope not.
There is a lot of dragons and amazing minis that I still would like to own one day.

I don't think FW is going away. I think FW is more likely to be dropping 40k and focusing on 30k.
Their releases recently have been branching out into lotr and a lot of AOS. For the record I buy stuff from GW & FW and will continue to do so as long as the quality is good. The reason I favour the second-hand market for aspects is that I prefer old metals to current crappy fine cast. If plastic was on offer I would spend the ££...

Regarding the design shake up, I am happy buying rehashed designs with improved quality rather than buying "new shiny" for new shinys sake... I am going to jump into legacy WHFB because of HE rather than AOS because I think flying sharks and turtles are nonsense and want nothing to do with it. If CWE go the way of ynnari and get "freaky" like their slaneshi looking avatar. I will 100% loose interest. If it ain't broke dont fix it. And the CWE recipie aint broke. It just needs to be cooked in a modern kitchen. Ya know? Not saying no to change ever... But I would much rather see exodites/new wraith units/tech than ynarri.

Obviously just my opinions and everyones mileage will vary..

I really liked the new Jain Zar model and I have high expectations about the new Banshees. Now that I am starting a Ulthwe army, I would buy a campaignbox with Eldar and Drukhari. Even I do not play Drukhari, I have a few units for Corsair purposes. I remember the old Forge World list where both, Eldar and Drukhari could be included, even Harlquins.

 Crimson wrote:
Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.

And yeah, we probably won't get all aspects, but as the plastic version seem to be pretty much identical to resin versions, that's hardly not a big deal. Resin is fine for models with no options.

I mean if I could get Dark Reapers that don't look awkward and silly that would be great, but I really don't much care whether the stupid looking Reapers are plastic or resin.

Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.


The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.

everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.

The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.

It is very easy to see the seams between new and old

Hellebore wrote:

Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.


The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.

everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.

The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.

It is very easy to see the seams between new and old

I agree with your overall point, especially about the Autarchs, but I really don't think it applies to Nightwing. It originally looked completely different, and I really don't think there has happened a conceptual fluff mutilation like with so many other aspects of the Eldar lore. Eldar can have many different fighter crafts, and what their names are doesn't really matter.

 Crimson wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.


The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.

everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.

The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.

It is very easy to see the seams between new and old

I agree with your overall point, especially about the Autarchs, but I really don't think it applies to Nightwing. It originally looked completely different, and I really don't think there has happened a conceptual fluff mutilation like with so many other aspects of the Eldar lore. Eldar can have many different fighter crafts, and what their names are doesn't really matter.

You're not wrong. I kind of went off on a tangential hobby horse.

So long as they acknowledge the existence of the. Nightwing and don't just remove it. It's about time everyone else got a wide selection of options like marines and guard do

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.

The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.

 Galef wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?

I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.

So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.

-

You can’t on one hand complain about the lack of plastic updates to old models then on the other not purchase new plastic updates for old models when they are released. This makes absolutely no sense.

GW are a business first and foremost, if you’re an Eldar player and you choose not to purchase the new Banshees you are sending the message that you don’t care about updated, plastic models for them, by proxy other aspect warriors and even older units from another factions.

If you decide to do that you have absolutely no right to complain when GW decide that people don’t care about updating older models and stop doing it. It is the message you have sent them through your buying decisions.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.

The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.

Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...

Hellebore wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.

And yeah, we probably won't get all aspects, but as the plastic version seem to be pretty much identical to resin versions, that's hardly not a big deal. Resin is fine for models with no options.

I mean if I could get Dark Reapers that don't look awkward and silly that would be great, but I really don't much care whether the stupid looking Reapers are plastic or resin.

Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.


The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.

everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.

The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.

It is very easy to see the seams between new and old

I think that is why they are using the Ynnari - a mechanism to open up the design style of the Eldar. I've felt that the Eldar design style has got a bit too sterile - I prefer the original feel of Eldritch weaponry, tech looking more like witchcraft. I'm hoping design wise it lets them bring back ancient weapons and variety. We haven't seen what else the Banshee kit offers [they said their were other options to be revealed].

I'm interested to see what they do with the other aspects- Banshees and Dragons stayed pretty much the same [ignoring the 3rd ed sculpts]. But Reapers and Scorpions have changed a good bit from their original release. Plus Spears haven't really had a proper kit [I don't like the current kit at all].

Hellebore wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.

The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.

Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...

Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.

You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.

That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.

Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".

All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?

I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.

So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.

-

You can’t on one hand complain about the lack of plastic updates to old models then on the other not purchase new plastic updates for old models when they are released. This makes absolutely no sense.

GW are a business first and foremost, if you’re an Eldar player and you choose not to purchase the new Banshees you are sending the message that you don’t care about updated, plastic models for them, by proxy other aspect warriors and even older units from another factions.

If you decide to do that you have absolutely no right to complain when GW decide that people don’t care about updating older models and stop doing it. It is the message you have sent them through your buying decisions.

So to clarify, I'd LOVE to buy every single plastic Aspect box, paint them all up and put them on a huge diorama in a display case. But I won't be doing so for several reasons:

A) I can't afford it right now. I have 2 teenage boys and provide most of the income for my household, so we don't exactly have cash to just throw around
B) Because I work a full time job to provide for A, I don't have a lot of time to assemble and paint big projects. I am constantly painting stuff on a weekly basis, but often just a handful of models at a time and often helping my boys paint their own stuff (which they buy themselves with the small allowance I can afford to give them)
C) I've been playing Eldar for a decade and already have an extensive collection to build sufficient armies for both casual and competitive games with no more room in my case for tons more Infantry.

So please, before you go on a rant about someone else's motivations "not making sense", or having "no right to complain", please try to understand that not everyone is in the same circumstances and not everyone's "buying decision" is based on whether they want to buy that kit and support GW. Sometimes real-world concerns affect those decisions.
That is part of why I wanted these YEARS ago, when I could afford them.

-

Eldar were also the ancient advanced technology faction so a bodysuit power armour should really be standard.

In fact, the description for aspect armour literally said something like "Aspect armour is the equivalent of Powered Armour".

 Daba wrote:
Eldar were also the ancient advanced technology faction so a bodysuit power armour should really be standard.

In fact, the description for aspect armour literally said something like "Aspect armour is the equivalent of Powered Armour".

Which is why Dragons, Scorpions, Reapers and Spears all have 3+. It makes sense for Banshees and Hawks to have 4+ as they need to be lighter/swifter, but I 100% agree DAs should share the 3+ that other Aspects have. Considering the AP system of 8E, a 3+ is hardly what it was in prior editions and a 4+ is even worse. 11ppm would still be fine since Tactical Marines are now 12ppm and got tons of bonuses

-

 Galef wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Eldar were also the ancient advanced technology faction so a bodysuit power armour should really be standard.

In fact, the description for aspect armour literally said something like "Aspect armour is the equivalent of Powered Armour".

Which is why Dragons, Scorpions, Reapers and Spears all have 3+. It makes sense for Banshees and Hawks to have 4+ as they need to be lighter/swifter, but I 100% agree DAs should share the 3+ that other Aspects have. Considering the AP system of 8E, a 3+ is hardly what it was in prior editions and a 4+ is even worse. 11ppm would still be fine since Tactical Marines are now 12ppm and got tons of bonuses

-

Is`t toughness the armor that stop you getting hit and save the ability to ignore pain and damage ?

I think most stats GW gives to stuff that already existed is based on copy past, and not actual rethinking of rules.


Also isn't the scorpion armour the heavies eldar produce, so only the physicaly strongest eldar can use it?

Karol wrote:
I think most stats GW gives to stuff that already existed is based on copy past, and not actual rethinking of rules.


Also isn't the scorpion armour the heavies eldar produce, so only the physicaly strongest eldar can use it?

Even if that is truth, the aeldar armor should be better than guard with 0 armor.

Bharring wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.

The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.

Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...

Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.

You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.

That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.

Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".

All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.

Regarding the speed aspect, I think a big part of the problem is that there's a specific order in which models have to act: Move --> Psychic --> Shoot --> Melee.

Hence, outside of one specific stratagem, once a model has moved into position to shoot it can't then move back again. Nor can a model that remains stationary elect to shoot and then move. What's more, even psychic powers have to be cast before a unit shoots, so Warptime and the like can't be used to reposition a model after it's shoot/fought.

In essence, speed is rarely ever usable as a defence because whilst it can be used to get models into range of the enemy, it can't then be used to get them out of range of the enemy's weapons.

Ramming Serpents into everything is an example of speed used as defence. Or kiting enemy assault units. Speed is good.

Aspects looked quite fine before all the rule bloat, cheap infantry doing similar things or better and infantry blobs with buffs hitting on 3s or 2s re-rolling etc. Hell now ultramarine tactical is only 1 point more expensive than Avenger, can move and shoot, with extra AP with doctrine, has more S, A, T and better save.
And before new SM Codex I'd argue Avenger was a better infantry.

Karol wrote:
I think most stats GW gives to stuff that already existed is based on copy past, and not actual rethinking of rules.


Also isn't the scorpion armour the heavies eldar produce, so only the physicaly strongest eldar can use it?

"Heaviest" Eldar produce doesn't mean "heavy". Just not as light as other Eldar armors.

Also, "heavy" isn't always about weight. A guy in a loincloth with a spear is "heavy" infantry. A modern infantryman carrying a bazooka wearing body armor is "light" infantry.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.

The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.

Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...

Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.

You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.

That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.

Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".

All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.

Regarding the speed aspect, I think a big part of the problem is that there's a specific order in which models have to act: Move --> Psychic --> Shoot --> Melee.

Hence, outside of one specific stratagem, once a model has moved into position to shoot it can't then move back again. Nor can a model that remains stationary elect to shoot and then move. What's more, even psychic powers have to be cast before a unit shoots, so Warptime and the like can't be used to reposition a model after it's shoot/fought.

In essence, speed is rarely ever usable as a defence because whilst it can be used to get models into range of the enemy, it can't then be used to get them out of range of the enemy's weapons.

Sure, there's a lot less JSJ (move-shoot-move) in the game now, compared to previous editions. But moving, shooting, then retreating was only one way to use speed. As outlined above, speed can be used to engage a smaller local enemy force with a larger force. Which can be used as a defense mechanism.

That's one of the major loss from moving from 7th to 8th, the loss of run after shooting eldar inf had, now it's advance and ignore it's drawbacks for shooting, I would love having something similar like if this unit didn't advance on it's movement phase it can move 1d6 inches after shooting.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

This would work only by point increase.
So better not.

I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.

The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.

Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...

Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.

You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.

That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.

Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.

Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".

All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.

Regarding the speed aspect, I think a big part of the problem is that there's a specific order in which models have to act: Move --> Psychic --> Shoot --> Melee.

Hence, outside of one specific stratagem, once a model has moved into position to shoot it can't then move back again. Nor can a model that remains stationary elect to shoot and then move. What's more, even psychic powers have to be cast before a unit shoots, so Warptime and the like can't be used to reposition a model after it's shoot/fought.

In essence, speed is rarely ever usable as a defence because whilst it can be used to get models into range of the enemy, it can't then be used to get them out of range of the enemy's weapons.

Wow, it's almost as though these two posts showed off the problem with the IGOUGO system!

 Shadenuat wrote:
Ramming Serpents into everything is an example of speed used as defence. Or kiting enemy assault units. Speed is good.

Aspects looked quite fine before all the rule bloat, cheap infantry doing similar things or better and infantry blobs with buffs hitting on 3s or 2s re-rolling etc. Hell now ultramarine tactical is only 1 point more expensive than Avenger, can move and shoot, with extra AP with doctrine, has more S, A, T and better save.
And before new SM Codex I'd argue Avenger was a better infantry.

Were 2 DAs worth 1 intercessor even before the update? I would say no. And I think one DA was not worth a tac marine point for point even.
With the new SM codex DA Is most definitely left miles in the dust no matter how you look at it.

Im optimistic for some adjustments in CA. Now that Ynarri is no longer an issue and souping has been limited through psychic limitations etc. I really hope CWE will get some across the board point drops.
Would be nice when you are running something other than 3-6 fliers to not feel like you're obviously gimping/holding back your army.

I am most curious about the full scope of Banshees and jain zar rules and points.

Who thinks she will go up in point ?
Arguably disarming strike was better than what they teased so if she's same points that would be a bit meh.

The people we play against love the fact that it's gone.

Things like our JSJ stratagem are one of the few places that makes me like CP/stratagems. It allows us to move-shoot-move iconically, but in limited fashion and at cost.

Unfortunately, it mostly boils "Super perfect at combat" down from "Can move, shoot, then finish moving" to "Move really scary fast".

 Argive wrote:
Were 2 DAs worth 1 intercessor even before the update?

Well in 5 men squad with Exarch, you get equivalent of 6 DAs: 56:6 is 9.6 ppm. Of course, now that Intercessors with stratagems can unleash some massive firepower and are tougher and many times better in melee it's not much of a competition.

Bharring wrote:
The people we play against love the fact that it's gone.

People love that 7th Spiders are gone. Nobody were mad about Spiders moving 2d6 in Assault phase in older editions. They needed that because of their 12" guns. They still do. Used sparsely for units that need it, it's not broken.

Arguably 10 Reapers shooting and moving for 1CP is worse actually.

2nd edition had shooting to-hit modifiers based on how fast the target moved. The cut-off to get a -1 to-hit was 10", and running Eldar could just hit 10" (when running humans got 8"). Grav-tanks that moved even more quickly could get -2 and then there were holofields that doubled the to-hit modifier. That actually made speed equate effectively to armor.

That hasn't been present in later editions so no matter how fast the Eldar moved they were hit just as easily as anyone else, and had flimsy armor (for the fluff background of Eldar valuing speed as a form of armor). You were either in LOS and in range and a viable target or you were out. Great speed meant either closing the distance to charge the enemy in one go before they could shoot, or move shoot move in order to get back out of range or LOS. There was no in between.

Maneuvering should be rewarded for all factions. Obviously double on that for factions like Eldar, but I think nobody should be punished for moving their units around. Only some very specific units like artillery maybe should be. But then you don't want those near the enemy anyway since if they get charged they can't shoot. And they usually have slow base movement speed anyway.

Yep, 2nd edition had far more modifiers. Even though you could select to go on Overwatch at normal ballistic skill, there were just enough penalties to this:

-If an enemy was charging you, it was -1, I believe
-If an enemy unit moved out of cover, -1
-If an enemy moved into cover, -1 (and yes, this stacked, so if an enemy unit moved from cover to cover, you'd be -2 to hit)
etc.

Movement and charging was also double your base speed, so Eldar in general had a continual advantage instead of charging the same as ...well, every other unit in the game. Initiative was even more prevalent than later editions, and was used to avoid a number of weapons, and vehicle ramming, etc. So again high speed and high initiative actually felt like it.