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 Galef wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?

I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.

So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.

-

You can’t on one hand complain about the lack of plastic updates to old models then on the other not purchase new plastic updates for old models when they are released. This makes absolutely no sense.

GW are a business first and foremost, if you’re an Eldar player and you choose not to purchase the new Banshees you are sending the message that you don’t care about updated, plastic models for them, by proxy other aspect warriors and even older units from another factions.

If you decide to do that you have absolutely no right to complain when GW decide that people don’t care about updating older models and stop doing it. It is the message you have sent them through your buying decisions.

So to clarify, I'd LOVE to buy every single plastic Aspect box, paint them all up and put them on a huge diorama in a display case. But I won't be doing so for several reasons:

A) I can't afford it right now. I have 2 teenage boys and provide most of the income for my household, so we don't exactly have cash to just throw around
B) Because I work a full time job to provide for A, I don't have a lot of time to assemble and paint big projects. I am constantly painting stuff on a weekly basis, but often just a handful of models at a time and often helping my boys paint their own stuff (which they buy themselves with the small allowance I can afford to give them)
C) I've been playing Eldar for a decade and already have an extensive collection to build sufficient armies for both casual and competitive games with no more room in my case for tons more Infantry.

So please, before you go on a rant about someone else's motivations "not making sense", or having "no right to complain", please try to understand that not everyone is in the same circumstances and not everyone's "buying decision" is based on whether they want to buy that kit and support GW. Sometimes real-world concerns affect those decisions.
That is part of why I wanted these YEARS ago, when I could afford them.

-

So sell your old models to fund purchasing the new banshees if you want them?

It was hardly a rant, I’m simply explaining how your actions are potentially driving GW to do things that you actively dislike.

I don’t know your personal circumstances but I do think everyone in the hobby knows how expensive it is and I also know that this fact hasn’t changed over the years since you’ve been collecting Eldar. I also know that if every Craftworld player makes the same decision as you, GW will not make any more plastic aspect warriors, which is presumably not what you want.

It just strikes me as very odd - like someone who complains about global warming while making no attempt to correct it through changing their actions.

My interest in Eldar getting plastic kits used to be for personal interest. But with GW"s direction and my fading interest in 40K I'm no longer worrying about it. I am happy for current and future Eldar players though.

I'd like to see future normal Eldar (Craftworld) players have a proper line of plastic miniatures for the primary fighting force of their faction. If the rules become better maybe I'll get to watch them in battle reports online at least!

Running out of pom poms to give to people to cheer for actual eldar players.

Pilum wrote:
Well, looks like I have a hat to eat. I seriously thought we'd never see an Aspect - or even Classic Eldar - update and they'd all get folded into Ynnari. Of course, the annoying thing is I have a ton of the aspects in That Material already and space isnt infinite...

Also surprisingly deflated at how conservative the design is. I mean - yay, they'll fit nicely into the existing force, but ... a feeling of "is that it?" remains. Which is odd, seeing as I've been severely in love with the Aspects since the original Dwarf article.

As for a hope? Give the girls the old power sword back. The old S5 -3(?) save monster from RT/2nd. They never recovered from being nerfed to S:User in 3rd. Not sure they'll get it though.

I too was surprised by the 'conservative' design but in a good way (I'm not much of a fan of GW's 'more is more' aesthetic direction in the last 10 years). My only dislike is the obligatory scenery stand. No doubt we'll have one hanging upside down from the broken arch of a webway portal.

I am also fairly certain that this won't be a dual kit. This doesn't necessarily mean there won't be any dual kits but I'm leaning towards it being unlikely. The unchanged aesthetic of the Banshees makes it less likely that other aspects will be changed radically and a degree of homogenisation would be required for a dual kit. Personally I don't think there's anyone at GW presently who could improve on Jes Goodwin's original designs.

Regarding the power level, Banshees were pretty strong in the 3rd ed meta (when power weapons were only generally accessible to characters and squad leader), especially when you could assault from transports and entry/exit points weren't a thing - the issue is that's where they have been stuck for the last 20 years. I quite liked the 7th ed version mainly because they were so cheap and so fast.

 Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

Pilum wrote:
Well, looks like I have a hat to eat. I seriously thought we'd never see an Aspect - or even Classic Eldar - update and they'd all get folded into Ynnari. Of course, the annoying thing is I have a ton of the aspects in That Material already and space isnt infinite...

Also surprisingly deflated at how conservative the design is. I mean - yay, they'll fit nicely into the existing force, but ... a feeling of "is that it?" remains. Which is odd, seeing as I've been severely in love with the Aspects since the original Dwarf article.

As for a hope? Give the girls the old power sword back. The old S5 -3(?) save monster from RT/2nd. They never recovered from being nerfed to S:User in 3rd. Not sure they'll get it though.

I too was surprised by the 'conservative' design but in a good way (I'm not much of a fan of GW's 'more is more' aesthetic direction in the last 10 years). My only dislike is the obligatory scenery stand. No doubt we'll have one hanging upside down from the broken arch of a webway portal.

I am also fairly certain that this won't be a dual kit. This doesn't necessarily mean there won't be any dual kits but I'm leaning towards it being unlikely. The unchanged aesthetic of the Banshees makes it less likely that other aspects will be changed radically and a degree of homogenisation would be required for a dual kit. Personally I don't think there's anyone at GW presently who could improve on Jes Goodwin's original designs.

Regarding the power level, Banshees were pretty strong in the 3rd ed meta (when power weapons were only generally accessible to characters and squad leader), especially when you could assault from transports and entry/exit points weren't a thing - the issue is that's where they have been stuck for the last 20 years. I quite liked the 7th ed version mainly because they were so cheap and so fast.

Yea, i`m thinking of getting the old model for play and get the new for the collection, i`m scared the new model will be to fragile.

I too am hoping Howling Banshees either get a heap of extra attacks or much better strength. It’s sad to see them barrel roll into combat like hyper speed beast just to implode as soon as they hit into any enemies head first.

@ An Actual Englishman: I highly doubt that my "actions" are going to influence GW in this case. Plastic Aspects have been a demand from the player base for at lease a decade. They will sell like hot-cakes and my lack of buying them won't even be a blip on GW's radar. Although normally, I'd agree with you. That's why I went out and bought a Webway Gate, despite its rules being rubbish. I want GW to make more non-Imperial terrain, so I "voted" with my wallet.

I'd like to continue explaining why it's still important to me that all models in GWs range be made into plastic BEFORE new units are made (if nothing else but for a sense of completion for the range as a whole), but it doesn't seem like it will achieve anything.
This is the internet, so I'll have to accept your opinion is valid even though it doesn't seem like you will ever acknowledge mine as such.

As we get closer and closer to this release, it's starting to look more like Banshees/Incubi (plus Characters) will be the only Aeldari released for a while. Or GW will continue the "slow drip" style of releases as they've done with Marines.
Either way, GW seems to already have things planned out for the near future. If the other Aspects aren't already being designed, I doubt the sales of Plastic Banshees are going to affect that one way or another.

-

 Galef wrote:
@ An Actual Englishman: I highly doubt that my "actions" are going to influence GW in this case. Plastic Aspects have been a demand from the player base for at lease a decade. They will sell like hot-cakes and my lack of buying them won't even be a blip on GW's radar. Although normally, I'd agree with you. That's why I went out and bought a Webway Gate, despite its rules being rubbish. I want GW to make more non-Imperial terrain, so I "voted" with my wallet.

I'd like to continue explaining why it's still important to me that all models in GWs range be made into plastic BEFORE new units are made (if nothing else but for a sense of completion for the range as a whole), but it doesn't seem like it will achieve anything.
This is the internet, so I'll have to accept your opinion is valid even though it doesn't seem like you will ever acknowledge mine as such.

As we get closer and closer to this release, it's starting to look more like Banshees/Incubi (plus Characters) will be the only Aeldari released for a while. Or GW will continue the "slow drip" style of releases as they've done with Marines.
Either way, GW seems to already have things planned out for the near future. If the other Aspects aren't already being designed, I doubt the sales of Plastic Banshees are going to affect that one way or another.

-

Take the silver lining. If the Aspects had been made plastic years ago they wouldn't be in the style of the new kits coming out. Eldar are getting the bleeding edge just like marines even if it's not the whole sweep right now.

 Shadenuat wrote:
How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.

If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.

The problem isn't that melee doesn't deal damage, the problem is that its hard to get melee units into combat. And when they do get into combat the charged unit just ups and leaves and lets the rest of the army shoot up the poor assault units.
In most cases you pretty much have 1 turn to deal as much damage as possible, and hope you can engage as many units as possible to mitigate any retaliatory fire. If you can't do that then you might as well have spend the points on something with a gun.

You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

Hellebore wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.

Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.

Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!

Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks

 Argive wrote:

Spoiler:

Marin wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.

Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.

Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!

Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks

I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent

-

 Galef wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Spoiler:

Marin wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.

Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.

Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!

Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks

I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent

-

Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?

Marin wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Spoiler:

Marin wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.

Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.

Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!

Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks

I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent

-

Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?

Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Spoiler:

Marin wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.

Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.

Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!

Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks

I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent

-

Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?

Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.

Or you don't and keep fighting. Ergo consequences to the choice of falling back.

Anyway. Not sure if there is an appropriate thread for proposing rules regarding falling back in the Proposed rules section. Maybe there ought to be if anyone wants to check it. Its a long discussion in an of itself not related to Psychic awakening.

 Argive wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Spoiler:

Marin wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.

Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.

Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!

Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks

I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent

-

Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?

Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.

Or you don't and keep fighting. Ergo consequences to the choice of falling back.

Anyway. Not sure if there is an appropriate thread for proposing rules regarding falling back in the Proposed rules section. Maybe there ought to be if anyone wants to check it. Its a long discussion in an of itself not related to Psychic awakening.

and again that is making units that are good at shooting better.
Units like aggressors or flamers charging so they can get free kills and punish untis that are send to CC them but can`t get rid of them.
For instance you charge with banshes to stop the aggressors to shoot, but banshees cant kill them, you get into position with shooting unit and want to fall back and suddenly you are using your unit of banshess to free shooting.
So i say no free shooting in the enemy turn.

Marin wrote:

Spoiler:

 Argive wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Marin wrote:

Hellebore wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.

And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.

Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.

I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail

Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.

As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.

There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.

Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.

In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.

Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.

Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!

Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks

I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent

-

Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?

Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.

Or you don't and keep fighting. Ergo consequences to the choice of falling back.

Anyway. Not sure if there is an appropriate thread for proposing rules regarding falling back in the Proposed rules section. Maybe there ought to be if anyone wants to check it. Its a long discussion in an of itself not related to Psychic awakening.

and again that is making units that are good at shooting better.
Units like aggressors or flamers charging so they can get free kills and punish untis that are send to CC them but can`t get rid of them.
For instance you charge with banshes to stop the aggressors to shoot, but banshees cant kill them, you get into position with shooting unit and want to fall back and suddenly you are using your unit of banshess to free shooting.
So i say no free shooting in the enemy turn.

But if you combine it with making CC units like Banshees actually good at CC - in this case you might want them to stay in combat so they could continue to chop the agressors apart and it's the marine player who wants to fall back but risks extra attacks from the banshees in order to do so. Banshees aren't supposed to be a unit that's only good for tying up an enemy unit and stopping it from shooting for a turn, that's just a side-effect of the way their rules have been cocked up.

Also note that the proposal was for melee or pistol attacks - so not for things like flamers. I think it's a good idea - it's far too easy to run away from close combat with this edition, and surely the unit that you're running away from isn't going to miss the opportunity to stab you in the back as you try to run away. Actually gives some consequences to trying to disengage. And generally it's going to be the shooty units that want to get away from the CC units - so it's a boost to CC units in a shooting-dominated edition of the game.

Anyway we're getting somewhat off topic here, let's talk about them cool new models.

I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.

 Sarigar wrote:
I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.

I hope so!

Would be nice to get a new Shining spears kit first...I think it would be the easiest to update.

All they have to do is do a new rider sprue as the bikes don't need updating IMO.

 Argive wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.

I hope so!

Would be nice to get a new Shining spears kit first...I think it would be the easiest to update.

All they have to do is do a new rider sprue as the bikes don't need updating IMO.

Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. Just an extra upgrade sprue to put in with some windrider sprues, just need some specific helmets, maybe torsos, laser lances, Exarch options and that's about it. Maybe one or two alternative decorative bits to stick the bikes with whatever room is left on the sprue.

I think it's one of the more needed aspect updates too, because I find it rather jarring that the shining spears still use the outdated jetbike models when we have improved jetbikes for the windriders.

 Bellerophon wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.

I hope so!

Would be nice to get a new Shining spears kit first...I think it would be the easiest to update.

All they have to do is do a new rider sprue as the bikes don't need updating IMO.

Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. Just an extra upgrade sprue to put in with some windrider sprues, just need some specific helmets, maybe torsos, laser lances, Exarch options and that's about it. Maybe one or two alternative decorative bits to stick the bikes with whatever room is left on the sprue.

I think it's one of the more needed aspect updates too, because I find it rather jarring that the shining spears still use the outdated jetbike models when we have improved jetbikes for the windriders.

Then we’d need to get the windrider autarch a new ride, and we could retire the old bikes.

I wonder if they could do something like they did with the custodes bikes, where you had the option to build a character out of the unit box?

A guy can dream...

Edit:
Even if they don’t “officially” do it, a plastic shining spear is only a head swap, back banner, and a paint job away from being an autarch.

I wonder if the new eldar are going to be taller. SoB makes classic marines look small, and the eldar special character are much bigger then the other eldar models. Plus banshees seem to be mounted on scenic bases, this could make other models standing next to them look like children.

The BSF Ranger is...not short, so I absolutely suspect some embiggening will occur...somewhat sadly. Who knows, could be wrong.

 Elbows wrote:
The BSF Ranger is...not short, so I absolutely suspect some embiggening will occur...somewhat sadly. Who knows, could be wrong.

Don't even start me on the BSF ranger... Most regrettable £10 I ever spent..

P.S.
I've seen a mention on one of the other rumour threads that CWE will get updates in the campaign books but also a new codex is on the way that will be the same as Marines 2.0 with each craftworlds getting its identity by having craftworld specific strats, relics & traits.
Mind this is totally just a rumour but it could be we are next in line to get a new book.

However I see problem with this as the vanilla SM book is just that.. vanilla. The supplements give SM their true "edge of power creep" so I'm dubious about this, because we'd need supplements too and Im not about that life but to be honest don't think GW have enough love/interest for xeno factions to give us supplements. S not sure how much I believe this.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.

If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.

The problem isn't that melee doesn't deal damage, the problem is that its hard to get melee units into combat. And when they do get into combat the charged unit just ups and leaves and lets the rest of the army shoot up the poor assault units.
In most cases you pretty much have 1 turn to deal as much damage as possible, and hope you can engage as many units as possible to mitigate any retaliatory fire. If you can't do that then you might as well have spend the points on something with a gun.

It doesn´t matter if cc sucks or not. I just want a bunch of new plastic Scorpions to paint which look great and don´t fall over, if you look at them for just a second.