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Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Agreed.

The fact they say they won't continue to balance them and they will recommend they are not for tournament play says strongly to me that these units will also generally not be playable in standard pickup games.

I believe the standard for general play will be "no legends".

Is this a change to how Index units have been handled in your groups until now? I was under the assumption, based on anecdotal experience, that they weren't allowed in most groups anyway?

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Dead on arrival for tournament only players. For people who don't play in tournaments, it really doesn't matter. I don't know which player base is bigger, though I suspect it's the non tournament camp. There literally just are not enough tournaments offered frequently enough in enough different cities to accommodate even a fraction of the total number of people buying GW product.

Saying something is dead on arrival because of how it impacts that population is disingenuous at best.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Is this a change to how Index units have been handled in your groups until now? I was under the assumption, based on anecdotal experience, that they weren't allowed in most groups anyway?

Standard in my local shop is index is totally fine at the moment.

My own group (I just play against one friend at the moment) will be just fine, we're very much Rule Of Cool.

PenitentJake wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Dead on arrival for tournament only players. For people who don't play in tournaments, it really doesn't matter. I don't know which player base is bigger, though I suspect it's the non tournament camp. There literally just are not enough tournaments offered frequently enough in enough different cities to accommodate even a fraction of the total number of people buying GW product.

Saying something is dead on arrival because of how it impacts that population is disingenuous at best.

Like Rule of 3 is a tournament rule.

The killer for Legends is them specifically saying they will not balance the rules going forward. That will put off the majority of people, more so the more time passes.

When it first launches people might accept it. As it gets further from the time they were balanced less and less so. These units are going from standard play, I see that as inevitable based on what GW has said.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.

And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.

They will keep them around. They specifically said they won't be updating point values etc. They will be put there and be like that forever. Literally only difference(apart from no longer being recommended for tournaments) is at least new players have access to rules. ATM you can't even get rules anymore.

But they specifically said no more point updates...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.

Why I get impression he misunderstood what you said and you two are actually agreeing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

Unless you are using them in tournaments, you should still get to play with them since they will have points. Not really a big deal.

Like you universally can use 4 terminator assault squads and 5 doomsday arks outside tournament?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fhanados wrote:

2. That they recommended not using Legends units in organised play. So what? There's already tournaments that are banning Index units, or at least considering it. Also, it's not even a codified "organised play suggestion" like the rule of 2/34 or the detachment limit. Maybe it will be when they release the ruleset, but even then it's entirely up to the TO and the community if they want to adhere to it or not.

Tournament rules have habit of becoming de facto standard outside as well. People practice for future tournaments. This means they want opponents to follow those rules as well(not much of practice otherway). So people start bringing tournament complicant armies. Suddenly getting game with army that DOESN'T follow tournament rules become hard. That's been the case for 20+ years I have been in the hobby.

So if tournaments start banning legends as per GW's suggestion that seeps up outside tournaments as well.

How often you play without rule of 3?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Dead on arrival for tournament only players. For people who don't play in tournaments, it really doesn't matter. I don't know which player base is bigger, though I suspect it's the non tournament camp. There literally just are not enough tournaments offered frequently enough in enough different cities to accommodate even a fraction of the total number of people buying GW product.

Saying something is dead on arrival because of how it impacts that population is disingenuous at best.

I don't play in many tournaments either. Yet getting game that doesn't follow tournament rules requires extra effort. Not "pick up army, drop into FLGS and play" level. Not even longshot. If I want to play random pickup game it WILL be under tournament rules.

bananathug wrote:
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

Maybe.
What you definitely need is to find a rational non-tourney play group.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. Rule Of 3 was just a suggestion for tournament play from GW, but it instantly became a hard rule everywhere from tournaments to pick-up games in store. I can see this going the same.

The legends will only be dead on arrival to the most narrow minded of people.If anything its a good test to see who is actually worth playing with or not when the most degenerate things are all perfectly legal in lists currently.

I'm an old school player with loads of legacy models, I play in a few tournament but mostly pickup/casual games.

Some here seem to be complaining that GW have stated that they wont be updating pts and rules for these after they put them in the legends bracket. How is that different than today? The points and rules for index only units haven't been touched since their respective codex's came out. I for one am hopeful that they will do a little updating before adding them to legends so they are a bit more usable and have rules compatible with current codex (marines given angels of death etc...).

The tournament legality recommendation is annoying but was always going to happen, tournaments like updated, balanced rules and best will in the world GW is not going to be actively supporting models they don't make any more. It sucks for some but consider the new players that get confronted by units that they cannot buy with rules not in their codexs, I can see why they are doing it.

Most badly hit are the orks who have some key HQs missing and marines just by dint of the amount of stuff they lose. Most of the other casualties with be wargear options which I suspect will be going altogether unless they were part of a specific model, old kitbashes will be getting no support I wager.

From what they said in the article, they won't be "recommending" that these units be used in tournaments.

What the hell!
Now they give recommendations about the usage of units they have configured?

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
The whole, "not recommending those units for tournaments," doesn't do much to help either. Sure, we can argue that they called it a recommendation, and no tournament organizer is obliged to follow it, but how many tournaments do we expect to ignore this recommendation in reality? Few I bet.

Rule Of 3 says hi... Can see the Legends rules being pretty much dead on arrival.

Really?! I was of the impression that rule of three is like gospel for tournament organizers. If I'm wrong about that, then color me very pleasantly surprised.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. Rule Of 3 was just a suggestion for tournament play from GW, but it instantly became a hard rule everywhere from tournaments to pick-up games in store. I can see this going the same.

I agree.
Currently everyone I know plays the rule of 3 as an actual rule in casual play but index units are considered part of the normal rules. I think this will change the attitude of most people towards not using Index units but it will be a gradual process. I've seen new players complain about the lack of these models and convert them up in the last 2 years so they will likely be some annoyed people to this rules change.

I think over time players will begin to think of legends units as narrative play options but this won't happen overnight.

We all had a sense that the exclusion of these units from codices was the beginning of the end for them but I didn't expect it to happen in this way. I actually think this way of handling it is quite a intelligent decision from GW.

This almost feels like the way M:TG handled the process in the beginning with the transition to blocks. Standard and modern and Legacy. I think Legends units will become the equivalent of legacy magic cards.

This is not a bad thing for new players but will cause gripes with older players but lets look at this as what it really is, a way to sell more models.

The question is what will happen to the flowchart. Will this stop codex models using index weapon options?

 wuestenfux wrote:

From what they said in the article, they won't be "recommending" that these units be used in tournaments.

What the hell!
Now they give recommendations about the usage of units they have configured?

If you are being generous: The recommendation is on that basis that the points costs for legends units won't be reviewed as part of the annual balance changes.

Thus if a unit is disproportionately powerful (or weak) given the points cost given to it it won't be increased (or decreased) to bring it into balance with other units/ armies...

Okay in the fullness of the it may change, but its liable to take a long time, and not be on a regular basis.

I can also see GWs point about having units readily available.

If you are being synical: GW creates the rules so is creating rules, and declaring support there if that proactively encourages us to by new stuff

Comparing legends to Ro3 is a bit of a stretch. Are they both suggestions ? Yes.

However, that is where the similarities begin and end. The Ro3 has been in the game for more of the games lifetime than it was gone. It was oddly absent at the start of 8th, then pulled back in as people abused the fact it wasn't there so gaining it was really more a return to what had been for decades before.

As well, Ro3 actually handles some very extreme game balance issues. Legends exclusion doesn't.

1 bike chaplain won't have the same impact on a game as say 9 jet fighters.

Anyone looking at the items in question with even a moderate understanding of the rules and game will be fine with them being used.

Every game is not tournament prep, and we're not all going Pro. The fact GW won't " balance " them means very little when the stuff they balance still ends up borked beyond belief.

Are Grey Knights balanced ? What about guard infantry squads ? I know their amazing job at balance surely hasn't given us some really annoying lists to deal with.

Denying someone their index units won't somehow save you from dreaded " imbalance ". It's a completely insane irrational fear.

For those saying how smart this is, so they can soft kill it, it's more saying its smart because we as a player base are so dumb we'll hear " not for tournaments..?!?!?...bad..bad evil..must deny !!! "

I mean no one has to accept anything to play against but lets not be so narrow minded we deny people completely reasonable games because GW is " clever " as it makes us really seem sorta dumb if we allow it.

Umm rule of 3 was introduced first time over a year ago. The moment it became introduced first time ever it became hard rule. It was first time out there for whopping 1 seconnd and it was already de facto standard.

And Ro3 has nothing to do with balance anyway.

And everybody isn't going to be pro but when everybody brings tournament compliciant armies getting game without isn't "pick up standard army, go to FLGS and play" if you don't follow. I don't play with tournaments in mind. But getting game without tournament rules require pre-agreement ahead in time. I can't just drop into FLGS and play against first opponent.

Sure I can decide I don't get limited by that. Limits amount of opponents I will have when I'm playing under different rules than the rest of guys at the FLGS...

Ro3 was basically a return to the old FOC which only allowed 3 of certain types of units, heavy support, fast attack, etc. So no, it really wasn't introduced just a year ago, it had been there just not with the same name but it was there for a long long time through many game editions.

Ro3 has everything to do with balance, why do you think it was implemented ? People were spamming certain power units out of control.

Using a bike chaplain doesn't requite pre arranged games, sorry. I mean people can be hamstrung by whatever weird mental gymnastics they want but I refuse to make myself that slaved to the rules I won't let someone use a flavor unit because it won't be in a tournament.

Note I use the chaplain model just as a point of reference but really it could go for any of the units in the selection.

But Dual CAD and allied detachments meant that rule of 3 wasn't a thing. You could run more than 3 of anything if you could afford the troops and HQ tax. Then formations allowed you to do all sorts of min maxing. Multiple aspect host formations with al warp spiders was a thing! Librarius conclave specifically allowed 5 librarians. So RO3 was new.

Despite the origins or not of the R03 it is still an optional rule for matched play that has become standard everywhere I play much like the rule of 3 detachments which is also optional but I don't know anyone that doesn't use this in over 1k games. The legends rule specifically calls out competitive play and is a clarion call to TO's that this is the way GW want it to be played but its up to those TO's to adopt it and I'm pretty sure most will and definitely the big ones. Lets be honest it is likely that most players who attend tournaments or intend to will start to treat this like a defacto rule. I know I will and I would expect my opponents to specify in advance if they will be using 'Legends' units from now on. So yeah getting a game against random people at FLGS will need this to be agreed in advance. Good luck finding a game where people won't assume its THE rule.

I think this is the thin end of the wedge though. I can see in years to come as new codex come out they may choose to remove units from them and add those units to the Legends list. What if they no longer want to produce finecast models because they're no longer financially feasible to create plastic moulds for...boom into the legends list.

That's fine, people can do what they want to but I'm not about to just hop up and obey my GW overlords because what was legal yesterday is somehow illegal today just because they say so for no real reason.

Let everyone make that call for themselves, I'm simply offering a point of argument that to blindly follow it is folly, people are open to feel otherwise.

I'll seek and ask for no explanation on using Legends other than to say to anyone who I do talk to, Legends are totally fine with me and should be expected in all games, even if they aren't used in every game.

Standard in my local shop is index is totally fine at the moment.

Same in my gaming group.
I'll continue to use that bigmek on bike with KFF.
And if a TO at a tourney makes a ruling to allow him too all the better.

I'm perfectly fine with this.

The Index books are not meant to last forever, and GW doesn't want some unit variations to cause any future balance issues.

This way the rules will always exist, but if they cause issues a tournament can simply omit the units from use.

So all I'm hearing from this is that DE will continue to get crapped on by GW.

"lol, we removed all your HQs before the Index so no legacy rules for you."

 vipoid wrote:
So all I'm hearing from this is that DE will continue to get crapped on by GW.

"lol, we removed all your HQs before the Index so no legacy rules for you."

Maybe they'll be part of the "champions new and old rise to the fore" bit??? Fingers crossed...

Crispy78 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
So all I'm hearing from this is that DE will continue to get crapped on by GW.

"lol, we removed all your HQs before the Index so no legacy rules for you."

Maybe they'll be part of the "champions new and old rise to the fore" bit??? Fingers crossed...

Wouldn't that be nice. Currently, Drukhari don't even have an Archon special character, just a Haemonculus, a Succubus and an Incubus.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?

Also what units are they going to place on this list?.

What does that include?
All indexes, including FW?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its everything that was in the Index that didnt make it into a codex.

And you and I had very different interpretations about what GW is doing with Legends. How you got "Legends wont be further supported" from "which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends" is beyond me.

Because the support that matters is ongoing points/errata updates to deal with balance issues and tournament legality. By dumping them in the "not tournament legal" pile GW has just guaranteed that most players won't be able to use them, since even the people who don't go to tournaments often find that tournament rules are the standard in their local community and aren't going to invest in something they can only use with special permission.

Well rip my renegades them.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?

Also what units are they going to place on this list?.

What does that include?
All indexes, including FW?

It doesn't say anything about FW specifically. I would hope they would continue to fully support FW units given the amount people spend on them! But who knows. Inside sources say that FW is being reworked as the specialist brand instead of doing anything for 40k or Sigmar, but that doesn't tell us what the plan is for legacy stuff.

Wait and see basically!

bananathug wrote:
Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:

Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex

150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.

I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though

What's a Captain on a bike anyway? SM Captains have a really wide scope in model designs. Bloke in power armour, on a bike? They sell those. Even if you want to bling him up a bit or add different weapons it's no more difficult or different a conversion than trying to get a different weapon loadout that official kits don't really come with. You'll spend a hell of a lot more (and end up with a lot more left over) using only official parts and buying from GW if you want, say, a Chaos Terminator squad all with their basic weapons, or a Devastator Squad with 4 Heavy Flamers, or Khaine forbid, an Eldar War Walker with it's base 2 shuriken weapons.
Converting is bad, we can only use what's in the box. Except for loads of units where the weapons available to the entire unit are not included in the box. Or if you want to put a jump pack on a Librarian, or Sorceror. Or...have an oldmarine Lt. Every box of those I've bought has been lacking in options, empty and imaginary. I'm not even really bothered if they decide these particular units aren't going to be updated in the Codex, or their rules aren't going to be excessively good for their points cost until everyone has bought the new models and then they get nerfed, or that we'll have to just kinda shrug and make it up as we go in regards to how these interact with new options or rules, but it'd be nice if they stopped pretending that they only allow rules for the kits they make and that they make rules for every kit...or did they add an entry for Space Marine Commander into the new Codex?

 Stux wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
So in addition to everything else, GW announced there's a legends category which won't be further supported. In the official statement they all but encouraged tournaments not to add them in. So do you think the non GW tournaments will allow these units or not?

Also what units are they going to place on this list?.

What does that include?
All indexes, including FW?

It doesn't say anything about FW specifically. I would hope they would continue to fully support FW units given the amount people spend on them! But who knows. Inside sources say that FW is being reworked as the specialist brand instead of doing anything for 40k or Sigmar, but that doesn't tell us what the plan is for legacy stuff.

Wait and see basically!

Wait and see.
SINCE start of 8th.

Even though you could've literally copied IA13 and demagoge devotions over and had a Decent runable List for R&H? Feth that and feth GW:
BTW: Servants didn't even show up on the list of factions so Double Feth gw.
but we need another 100 fukin flavours of marines with or sans spikes.

Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.

Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GW uk and could only find index imperium 2

Does that mean anything?