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Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
FW index are still sold online to my knowledge. Also only sold online as epub, i belive. In one of the worst doccument types possible
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 11:40:03
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
bananathug wrote: Models that I've just converted/bought/painted this edition that are going away:
Wolfguard on bike
captain on bike
DA libby on bike
Mini-tiggy
SM dex
150+ bucks and hours that are far more valuable that GW is squatting (not counting indexes) that I spent this edition that will no longer be valid for matched/tourney play. Not legacy models but kits I've bought then kit-bashed then painted THIS EDITION THAT WERE VALID WHEN I SPENT THE $$ AND TIME that I will no longer be legally allowed to play with.
I need to find a new hobby. Pretty much guarantees they are coming out with primaris bikers though
What's a Captain on a bike anyway? SM Captains have a really wide scope in model designs. Bloke in power armour, on a bike? They sell those. Even if you want to bling him up a bit or add different weapons it's no more difficult or different a conversion than trying to get a different weapon loadout that official kits don't really come with. You'll spend a hell of a lot more (and end up with a lot more left over) using only official parts and buying from GW if you want, say, a Chaos Terminator squad all with their basic weapons, or a Devastator Squad with 4 Heavy Flamers, or Khaine forbid, an Eldar War Walker with it's base 2 shuriken weapons.
Converting is bad, we can only use what's in the box. Except for loads of units where the weapons available to the entire unit are not included in the box. Or if you want to put a jump pack on a Librarian, or Sorceror. Or...have an oldmarine Lt. Every box of those I've bought has been lacking in options, empty and imaginary. I'm not even really bothered if they decide these particular units aren't going to be updated in the Codex, or their rules aren't going to be excessively good for their points cost until everyone has bought the new models and then they get nerfed, or that we'll have to just kinda shrug and make it up as we go in regards to how these interact with new options or rules, but it'd be nice if they stopped pretending that they only allow rules for the kits they make and that they make rules for every kit...or did they add an entry for Space Marine Commander into the new Codex?
Captain on a bike is still in the Codex IIRC.
It's all the other bike characters that will be Legendary.
I had a feeling Index options would become Open Play only. Which is kinda what happened.
The only Index option I used frequently was a Death Guard Lord with Jump Pack. I stopped using (and sold off) all my Bike characters immediately after seeing them Indexed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 12:34:16
Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
FW index are still sold online to my knowledge. Also only sold online as epub, i belive. In one of the worst doccument types possible
They make reference to the indexes no longer being available hence this legends solution, though I suspect that in typical GW fashion they have not noticed/acknowledged that the FW books are called index.
That or main studio has finally got it's own way and FW is about to be squatted after having been gutted to support churn and burn boxes "specialist games". But the Imperial Armour Talons book along with the cursed admech book has already shown the FW hasn't been in control of it's own destiny for a while.
Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
FW index are still sold online to my knowledge. Also only sold online as epub, i belive. In one of the worst doccument types possible
They make reference to the indexes no longer being available hence this legends solution, though I suspect that in typical GW fashion they have not noticed/acknowledged that the FW books are called index.
That or main studio has finally got it's own way and FW is about to be squatted after having been gutted to support churn and burn boxes "specialist games". But the Imperial Armour Talons book along with the cursed admech book has already shown the FW hasn't been in control of it's own destiny for a while.
Fancy, then there is no point in my renegades anymore.
because servants are a waste of plastic modelwise.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
It is always an eye opener how this is a surprise to people.
As a tourny player, This is most likely just a start. I'd bet that a bunch of the more problematic Forgeword stuff ended up going to legends. Porphy's, Mastadons, Thunder Hawks, Some of the Eldar super heavy tanks.
And then in 2022 when mini marines head to legends... well that will be the salty tear fest we have all be waiting for.
Now you have all of the current models legal for general play but now you'll have a legends format where everything is legal.
At least GW isn't coming out saying "yeah all those index units are never gonna be supported ever again, so use them as paper weights"
In essence it's a polite way of saying screw you your models count for nothing anymore.
Doesn't make it better, especially when we get 10000000000000000 marine books
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Reemule wrote: It is always an eye opener how this is a surprise to people.
As a tourny player, This is most likely just a start. I'd bet that a bunch of the more problematic Forgeword stuff ended up going to legends. Porphy's, Mastadons, Thunder Hawks, Some of the Eldar super heavy tanks.
And then in 2022 when mini marines head to legends... well that will be the salty tear fest we have all be waiting for.
Cool troll story bro
Realy if you dont own the FW indexes you really should be banned from commenting on them as the idea of any of those units in a 2k list being a problem list
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 12:55:32
AngryAngel80 wrote: There are a lot of sheep who do anything in society. Some won't ever stray beyond what they feel to be " illegal " regardless of how dumb the idea is.
Sir this is a wargame.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
AngryAngel80 wrote: There are a lot of sheep who do anything in society. Some won't ever stray beyond what they feel to be " illegal " regardless of how dumb the idea is.
Sir this is a wargame.
no it's a ccg, with wargame elements.
it's just gw doesn't want to admit that.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Reemule wrote: It is always an eye opener how this is a surprise to people.
As a tourny player, This is most likely just a start. I'd bet that a bunch of the more problematic Forgeword stuff ended up going to legends. Porphy's, Mastadons, Thunder Hawks, Some of the Eldar super heavy tanks.
And then in 2022 when mini marines head to legends... well that will be the salty tear fest we have all be waiting for.
Cool troll story bro
Realy if you dont own the FW indexes you really should be banned from commenting on them as the idea of any of those units in a 2k list being a problem list
I do own them. I own every released book for 40K.
It isn't that FW is a problem. Infact I'd say most of them are so far over pointed as they are very much not competitive.
The simple fact is that GW just came up with a way to sunset stuff.
Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
I am kinda happy with the Legends part even if it means a few conversions and old models I own are going to become less used. The current balancing juggle between a large backlog of unavailable miniatures and that there would be haves and havenots was always going to cause an issue for GW so with this they are just drawing a line in the sand. So for the tourney format this was a necessary step.
Either way I wouldn't be surprised if we would have Legends Tournaments and Matched Tournaments much like Magic the Gathering has tourneys for those who have collected forever and those who are just starting.
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Nithaniel wrote: Its not clear from these few lines what this means for the indexes. It only talks about models in the indexes that didn't make it to codex. This could mean the end of the indexes as a whole or it could be that the models in codexes that have wargear options in the index could still use that wargear.
Are they even still selling the indexes. I had a quick look on GWuk and could only find index imperium 2
Does that mean anything?
They've stopped selling the indexes when codexes filled the missing slot. I think Imperium 2 is only available because it has a few factions that haven't had a book yet such as Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, and in a way Sisters of Battle.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/29 13:29:48
That said, while I'll be sad about not having power axes on my superiors anymore assuming they're also taking the Index options, I've been doing a thing with the Imagifier and the Beacon of Faith stratagem, which is patently silly and in no way an intended interaction; since they've made a thing and changed the way our banner bearer works every time a new codex comes out, and getting +2 to Faith rolls and then affecting to all units within 6" [including those than couldn't ordinarily act on an AoF themselves] is ridiculous and in know way represents the capability and integrity of the modern Beta Codex.
At the very least, it exposes the problem with universally allowing Index units in competitive play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 13:41:48
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
And if I believed that, that would be lovely, but I don't. GW has claimed similar things before, and it's seldom materialized in anything substantial. An army like Dark Eldar can expect a single clam-pack resculpt of a finecast unit at best. All hail the 20€ plastic ur-ghul.
Unless I’m mistaken, fortification points values were index only. I wonder if those are going that way too. They weren’t exactly a staple of army lists but I can’t think of many people excited for codex concrete either
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Unless I’m mistaken, fortification points values were index only. I wonder if those are going that way too. They weren’t exactly a staple of army lists but I can’t think of many people excited for codex concrete either
Any forts still in production I'd expect to continue to get support. Anything no longer made is likely to go to Legends.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
And literally all customizable weapon options. Without the Index options, you can't even take a Warp-Jump Autarch. And Skyrunner Autarch have to choose from Fusion Gun -OR- Laser lance. They cannot have both without the Index. Not to mention Reaper Laucher. Reaper launcher/Laser Lance Skyrunner Autarchs are the only unit in the entire range that benefit entirely from being Saim-Hann. Every other unit either doesn't have a Heavy Weapon, or has no business Charging.
Autarchs are the Eldar equivalent of Marine Captains, which still retain a TON of their wargear options that don't have models. So why are Autarchs being restricted to only what GW has a model for?
Thank goodness this is only a suggestion for organized play.
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 14:01:08
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
And literally all customizable weapon options. Without the Index options, you can't even take a Warp-Jump Autarch. And Skyrunner Autarch have to choose from Fusion Gun -OR- Laser lance. They cannot have both without the Index. Not to mention Reaper Laucher.
Reaper launcher/Laser Lance Skyrunner Autarchs are the only unit in the entire range that benefit entirely from being Saim-Hann. Every other unit either doesn't have a Heavy Weapon, or has no business Charging.
Autarchs are the Eldar equivalent of Marine Captains, which still retain a TON of their wargear options that don't have models. So why are Autarchs being restricted to only what GW has a model for?
Thank goodness this is only a suggestion for organized play.
-
That's the thing: This is more or less only intended for tourneys to keep a somewhat level playing field. For anyone else it's up to the friends/groups what they play with.
To be fair I think it is time a plastic Jetbike Autarch comes. GW seems intent on killing resin so I wonder how long we must wait for the Autarch Skyrunner.
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
I'll laugh my ass off if that were the case.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Ishagu wrote: Before people start crying bout having their factions "crapped" on, remember that the Legends announcement comes alongside the declaration of new campaign books that will bring new units to EVERY faction.
I know that you're either GW's biggest fan or else a stooge in their pay, but do you really need to lie on their behalf?
GW has *not* promised new units to every faction.
They have promised new *rules* for every faction.
Those two things are very different. And pretending otherwise is downright deceitful.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Look at the archon or the autarch. Both of those models get gutted from the move from index to codex. A lot of people could be disappointed if their carefully converted model is openly discouraged from being used or misses out on any new rules the eldar could receive
Oh no, all those carefully converted banshee masks
And literally all customizable weapon options. Without the Index options, you can't even take a Warp-Jump Autarch. And Skyrunner Autarch have to choose from Fusion Gun -OR- Laser lance. They cannot have both without the Index. Not to mention Reaper Laucher.
Reaper launcher/Laser Lance Skyrunner Autarchs are the only unit in the entire range that benefit entirely from being Saim-Hann. Every other unit either doesn't have a Heavy Weapon, or has no business Charging.
Autarchs are the Eldar equivalent of Marine Captains, which still retain a TON of their wargear options that don't have models. So why are Autarchs being restricted to only what GW has a model for?
Thank goodness this is only a suggestion for organized play.
-
I was just poking fun at the Banshee mask being an auto-include on every Autarch ever, despite no modification to the model whatsoever.
I'd also like to point out that the ork Warboss also didn't lose any options when he moved to the codex, so the same might be happening to the Autarch in a 8.1 codex.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
DominayTrix wrote: Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
Super great, i find that perfect, as do my over 4000 pts renegades and heretics.
Have an Honorary-shill-marine.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
DominayTrix wrote: Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
Super great, i find that perfect, as do my over 4000 pts renegades and heretics.
Have an Honorary-shill-marine.
I think it's pretty clear that GW is marching towards a Servants book in the future that would likely be far better than anything R&H has had - including models.
DominayTrix wrote: Pretty happy with this change to be honest. While there are plenty of people who used index only for rule of cool type stuff, the vast majority of things people are complaining about are better than all their codex counterparts so people run them. Alternatively, while people are assuming that nobody will use the models once they are de-facto banned from matched play, this could be something that drives people to open play.
Most of the models are relatively small(nothing bigger than a biker?) so it wouldn't be too hard to transport a handful of extra models so you have a "Legends" list as well as a "Matched play" list. Not very different from EDH players who swap cards between multiple decks depending on the power level of the table.
Super great, i find that perfect, as do my over 4000 pts renegades and heretics.
Have an Honorary-shill-marine.
I think it's pretty clear that GW is marching towards a Servants book in the future that would likely be far better than anything R&H has had - including models.
Scuseme , HOW THE FETH IS FARTGAS FLAMER GUY Better then the old command squad The only thing better, and that is debatable, is that GW would write the rules ergo 95 % of not worth with 5 % broken.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 14:36:33
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Marine players are all like "wwwwwaaaaaahhhh my models will still have rules and I can still play them in casual games and some TOs may still allow me to play with my models waaaahhhh woe is me"
Mean while Dark Eldar players are still looking for the half of their army that disappeared when their codex was released in 7th. Be thankful you can still play with your models you filthy ingrates some armys dont get that luxury.
Scuseme , HOW THE FETH IS FARTGAS FLAMER GUY Better then the old command squad
He makes some good smores.
The only thing better, and that is debatable, is that GW would write the rules ergo 95 % of not worth with 5 % broken
Yeah, not so funny now isn't it?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
