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Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Breton wrote:
Again, Citation needed. Especially from someone with such a stickler reputation for the RAW, you should actually be providing said RAW. What page will we find the instruction to read This Turn as the turn when the objective is checked?

It has already been cited, multiple times. Also, the game requres the English Language to function. The game also doesn't give you the instruction for what "roll" means, or that dice are numbered 1-6.

No, it hasn't. You've made the claim several times, but neither you, nor anyone else, has quoted the page number and section explicitly stating which way "this turn" is supposed to be read.

BRB page 226.

Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Breton wrote:
Again, Citation needed. Especially from someone with such a stickler reputation for the RAW, you should actually be providing said RAW. What page will we find the instruction to read This Turn as the turn when the objective is checked?

It has already been cited, multiple times. Also, the game requres the English Language to function. The game also doesn't give you the instruction for what "roll" means, or that dice are numbered 1-6.

No, it hasn't. You've made the claim several times, but neither you, nor anyone else, has quoted the page number and section explicitly stating which way "this turn" is supposed to be read.

It doesn't need a citation, just a basic understanding of English and the context of the game. Not everything can be tied down to a citation, but that doesn't stop being clearly evident.

It is obvious to everyone including the usual RAW sticklers.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing in the rules tells you to lock the card to the turn you drew it on, so you don’t.

The rules tell you to check each turn/battle Round (depending on the mission) so that’s what you do.

Seems like a thread of “one guy vs consensus” which we get quite often in YMDC.

The rules say "This turn". Nothing tells you you can apply this turn to any subsequent turn either.

What you are referring to is Argumentum Ad Populum. Its a logical fallacy based on the idea that an opinion of the majority is always valid and correct. Remember when everyone thought the world was flat? Did the world change from flat to spherical, or were the majority wrong? Another way people at times get to the right answer for the wrong reason.

Breton wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing in the rules tells you to lock the card to the turn you drew it on, so you don’t.

The rules tell you to check each turn/battle Round (depending on the mission) so that’s what you do.

Seems like a thread of “one guy vs consensus” which we get quite often in YMDC.

The rules say "This turn". Nothing tells you you can apply this turn to any subsequent turn either.

What you are referring to is Argumentum Ad Populum. Its a logical fallacy based on the idea that an opinion of the majority is always valid and correct. Remember when everyone thought the world was flat? Did the world change from flat to spherical, or were the majority wrong? Another way people at times get to the right answer for the wrong reason.

And as we have explained multiple times, "This turn" is when you check the success of the card, as per page 226 of the BRB.

Breton wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing in the rules tells you to lock the card to the turn you drew it on, so you don’t.

The rules tell you to check each turn/battle Round (depending on the mission) so that’s what you do.

Seems like a thread of “one guy vs consensus” which we get quite often in YMDC.

The rules say "This turn". Nothing tells you you can apply this turn to any subsequent turn either.

What you are referring to is Argumentum Ad Populum. Its a logical fallacy based on the idea that an opinion of the majority is always valid and correct. Remember when everyone thought the world was flat? Did the world change from flat to spherical, or were the majority wrong? Another way people at times get to the right answer for the wrong reason.

This is a game, a human construct. It is defined by how people play it. Therefore the opinion of the majority is always correct, though it can change if the opinion of the majority changes.

I'm sorry, you've lost this one. Let it go.

 Stux wrote:
This is a game, a human construct. It is defined by how people play it. Therefore the opinion of the majority is always correct, though it can change if the opinion of the majority changes.

I'm sorry, you've lost this one. Let it go.

Not to agree with Breton, but "the opinion of the majority is always correct" is objectively false. If a lot of people play a rule wrong, it just means a lot of people are breaking the rule. It doesn't change what the rule is.

Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Breton wrote:
Again, Citation needed. Especially from someone with such a stickler reputation for the RAW, you should actually be providing said RAW. What page will we find the instruction to read This Turn as the turn when the objective is checked?

It has already been cited, multiple times. Also, the game requres the English Language to function. The game also doesn't give you the instruction for what "roll" means, or that dice are numbered 1-6.

No, it hasn't. You've made the claim several times, but neither you, nor anyone else, has quoted the page number and section explicitly stating which way "this turn" is supposed to be read.

Right. Core Rulebook p.226 (n.b. the page doesn't have the number on it).

'Achieving Tactical Objectives
At the end of every turn (yours and the enemy’s) you must check to see if you have achieved any of your active Tactical Objectives – the descriptions will tell you how and when they are achieved…

Some examples objectives (pg 227-229)
15 – Secure Objective 5. Score 1 VP if you control objective marker 5 at the end of your turn
62 – Witch Hunter. Score 1 VP if at least one enemy PSYKER was destroyed this turn
61 – Kingslayer – Score D3 VP if your opponent’s Warlord has been destroyed during this or any previous turn.

So from pg.226 at the end of each and every turn (i.e. yours and your enemy's) you must check to see you have achieved any of these objectives. Thus, in the context of defining what ‘this turn’ is, this has already been described – it is the turn you are checking objectives. As you check at the end of each and every turn, exactly which turn it is changes throughout the game.

You can check for meeting objectives on the turn they are generated, and any and every subsequent turn. The most general case describing the turn is ‘this turn’. This is the turn which you are checking, and may be yours or your enemy’s. If there needs to be a precise description (e.g. the objective can only be achieved during your turn or your enemy's turn) this can be indicated by using 'your turn' not 'this turn' - At the end of (any) this turn you check if this is 'your turn'.

Kingslayer is a special case in that that you may achieve this if you destroy the warlord in the current turn (doesn’t matter if it’s yours or your enemy’s), or if you have killed the warlord in any previous turns.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Stux wrote:
This is a game, a human construct. It is defined by how people play it. Therefore the opinion of the majority is always correct, though it can change if the opinion of the majority changes.

I'm sorry, you've lost this one. Let it go.

Not to agree with Breton, but "the opinion of the majority is always correct" is objectively false. If a lot of people play a rule wrong, it just means a lot of people are breaking the rule. It doesn't change what the rule is.

It means they got RAW wrong, but not that they played wrong. Those are very different things. If you follow common consensus then you aren't playing wrong, even if it's against RAW.

Breton wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nothing in the rules tells you to lock the card to the turn you drew it on, so you don’t.

The rules tell you to check each turn/battle Round (depending on the mission) so that’s what you do.

Seems like a thread of “one guy vs consensus” which we get quite often in YMDC.

The rules say "This turn". Nothing tells you you can apply this turn to any subsequent turn either.

What you are referring to is Argumentum Ad Populum. Its a logical fallacy based on the idea that an opinion of the majority is always valid and correct. Remember when everyone thought the world was flat? Did the world change from flat to spherical, or were the majority wrong? Another way people at times get to the right answer for the wrong reason.

Cute, but no. In this case the rule says what the majority are interpreting it as, not what you’re claiming. I have posted no fallacies, just attempted to suggest you listen.

And anyway, if consensus is that everyone plays one way and you attempt a different way then any screeching of “fAlLaCy!” is ultimately futile.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And as we have explained multiple times, "This turn" is when you check the success of the card, as per page 226 of the BRB.

Page 226 of my BRB (At least the ebook) is about War Zone Stygius.

I do have some rules for Tactical Objectives on Page 331, that states the Objective description will tell you how and when the objective is scored. It does not, unfortunately, say that This Turn continues for all turns.

It says Tactical Objectives are said to be active until they are either achieved or discarded. But this also doesn't necessarily mean, and definitely doesn't say, This Turn continues for all turns like you folks keep claiming. For example, Death From Above requires a unit that can fly, or arrived from reinforcements - both conditions can be negated long before you ever draw the Objective Card. Unfortunately I know of no rule telling you to discard objectives patently impossible to begin with- if the Chapter Master tells you to kill the Zoanthrope with Assault Marines even though he didn't detail you any assault marines, by God, you deep strike those assault marines you don't have right down on it's head - so it's still active until you discard it. Meaning being impossible to achieve - for example because This Turn ended- does not make an objective inactive.

Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And as we have explained multiple times, "This turn" is when you check the success of the card, as per page 226 of the BRB.

Page 226 of my BRB (At least the ebook) is about War Zone Stygius.

I do have some rules for Tactical Objectives on Page 331, that states the Objective description will tell you how and when the objective is scored. It does not, unfortunately, say that This Turn continues for all turns.

It says Tactical Objectives are said to be active until they are either achieved or discarded. But this also doesn't necessarily mean, and definitely doesn't say, This Turn continues for all turns like you folks keep claiming. For example, Death From Above requires a unit that can fly, or arrived from reinforcements - both conditions can be negated long before you ever draw the Objective Card. Unfortunately I know of no rule telling you to discard objectives patently impossible to begin with- if the Chapter Master tells you to kill the Zoanthrope with Assault Marines even though he didn't detail you any assault marines, by God, you deep strike those assault marines you don't have right down on it's head - so it's still active until you discard it. Meaning being impossible to achieve - for example because This Turn ended- does not make an objective inactive.

I don't see how that has anything to do with what we're discussing. Yes, some objectives can be impossible to achieve, either when drawn or for the entire game (kill a Flyer when your enemy has none and never had any, for example). That has no bearing on the meaning of "this turn". You check your cards at the end of each player turn and score any that apply. If you check a card that says "kill a thing this turn", you score the objective if you killed something regardless of whose turn it is because that's what the card says. You've killed a thing that turn. I really don't know how this could be any clearer. Some cards say you can only do them in your turn, so they obviously won't be scored when you check at the end of your opponent's turn. Looks to me like you've lost the argument and are now throwing around weird accusations about people arriving at the right conclusion for the wrong reasons...while then continuing to argue your original position.

For your position to be correct the card would have to say "kill a thing the turn this objective is drawn".

Slipspace wrote:


I don't see how that has anything to do with what we're discussing. Yes, some objectives can be impossible to achieve, either when drawn or for the entire game (kill a Flyer when your enemy has none and never had any, for example). That has no bearing on the meaning of "this turn". You check your cards at the end of each player turn and score any that apply.

I'm preempting the argument that always active "means" any turn.

If you check a card that says "kill a thing this turn", you score the objective if you killed something regardless of whose turn it is because that's what the card says. You've killed a thing that turn. I really don't know how this could be any clearer. Some cards say you can only do them in your turn, so they obviously won't be scored when you check at the end of your opponent's turn.

Probably true.

Looks to me like you've lost the argument and are now throwing around weird accusations about people arriving at the right conclusion for the wrong reasons...while then continuing to argue your original position.

I'm conintuing to argue the position because they're continuing to claim things that aren't there are there. They're not even paying attention, just repeating the same things. You did it right, and read what was there, only what was there, and pointed out a different way of reading JUST what was there, both of which are grammatically correct.

For your position to be correct the card would have to say "kill a thing the turn this objective is drawn".

Well, until now. For your position to be correct, the card would have to say at the end of ANY turn.

You’re told to check every turn.
The card asks if you did the thing this turn.
If you did you score it.
Simples.

No other wording is required to make this function. You need to bow to consensus on this one as your position is simply wrong. Other posters are describing how it works to you. Leave the goalposts in one place and try to see it as we’re telling you. This isn’t a situation where you’ll convince anyone as you’re plain wrong.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You’re told to check every turn.
The card asks if you did the thing this turn.
If you did you score it.
Simples.

No other wording is required to make this function. You need to bow to consensus on this one as your position is simply wrong. Other posters are describing how it works to you. Leave the goalposts in one place and try to see it as we’re telling you. This isn’t a situation where you’ll convince anyone as you’re plain wrong.

You're told to check every turn.
The Card asks if you did the thing this turn.
If you did, you score it. If you did it next turn, its no longer this turn, so you can never score it, and should discard it.
Simples.

No other wording is required to make this function. You need to bow to consenus on this one as the world is simply flat. Elvis is alive. The CIA killed JFK. 4 out of 5 19th Century doctors used leeches to cure hemorrhoids. Consensus is a beautiful thing. When nobody's invented Preparation H yet. You may want to look up what "moving the goalposts" means. It will help you use it correctly. This isn't a situation where you'll pay attention to anything but arguing anyway - or else you would have already noticed I agreed with someone who had a better argument than "Because We said so" and "the Rules that I can't actually quote verbatim - but will say I did - from the rule book say what they don't actually say".

Twisting the words doesn’t help anyone. At no point do the words on the card change to say “last turn”. Read the sentence as it is written. Don’t add words or meaning that isn’t there.

Also, I can’t help you if you’re intent on taking the piss, mate. What is your intent in this thread? This situation is not one that’s in any doubt in the community. There’s no gray area. You seem to just want an argument? Your entire last paragraph is just fishing for a bite and you won’t get one here. Let’s not have that kind of nonsense, thanks. You’ve had it explained by several posters... carrying on posting nonsense til thread lock achieves nothing. Have a great day.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Twisting the words doesn’t help anyone. At no point do the words on the card change to say “last turn”. Read the sentence as it is written. Don’t add words or meaning that isn’t there.

Also, I can’t help you if you’re intent on taking the piss, mate. What is your intent in this thread? This situation is not one that’s in any doubt in the community. There’s no gray area. You seem to just want an argument? Your entire last paragraph is just fishing for a bite and you won’t get one here. Let’s not have that kind of nonsense, thanks. You’ve had it explained by several posters... carrying on posting nonsense til thread lock achieves nothing. Have a great day.

Absolutely agree.

This is over, no point continuing to engage.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Twisting the words doesn’t help anyone. At no point do the words on the card change to say “last turn”. Read the sentence as it is written. Don’t add words or meaning that isn’t there.

Funny, I say the same thing. At no point do the rules say that This Turn continues onto the next turns.

Also, I can’t help you if you’re intent on taking the piss, mate. What is your intent in this thread? This situation is not one that’s in any doubt in the community. There’s no gray area. You seem to just want an argument? Your entire last paragraph is just fishing for a bite and you won’t get one here. Let’s not have that kind of nonsense, thanks. You’ve had it explained by several posters... carrying on posting nonsense til thread lock achieves nothing. Have a great day.

Well first off, you're still trying to win on a bandwagon appeal. Not In Doubt in the Community isn't proof of anything but the entire community agrees on something that may or may not be correct. - as I keep pointing out the world is flat is an opinion that wasn't in doubt in the scientific community for a long long time.

Secondly, there was doubt. More than just I pointed to the This Turn thing and wondered about it - so you've moved on from logical fallacy to outright fallacy.

Third, there will always be an argument. Arguments done correctly are a good thing. I want that argument settled correctly, because that will lead to the NEXT argument settled correctly- which I think I've made pretty clear time and time again. In fact, someone already did so, pointing out an alternate and technical reading of This Turn vs a more generic reading. I agreed with them, yet many of you have skipped right over that point - again, over and over - to continue to argue the wrong reason for the right answer - making up a rule about this turn always being this turn, and/or because everyone else says so. Arguing the sky is blue because clouds are white doesn't make your argument correct, it makes you lucky the sky is blue and clouds are white. To be correct, you need to talk about the wavelength of blue light and scattering because of air molecules.

The correct answer to the question is the same answer to ADEPTUS ASTARTES and Space Marine Detachment vs Adeptus Astartes or Space Marines, a technical game rule reading vs a more generic meaning - not Because Everyone who agrees with me says so, or a riff on Wimpy's offer to pay you tomorrow for a hamburger today - when it's never Tomorrow and always Today.

Breton wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Twisting the words doesn’t help anyone. At no point do the words on the card change to say “last turn”. Read the sentence as it is written. Don’t add words or meaning that isn’t there.

Funny, I say the same thing. At no point do the rules say that This Turn continues onto the next turns.

It does not need to.

By saying this turn, it literally means the turn in which you check for objectives.

At no point do the rules say that This Turn means last turn, or The turn you drew the objective card.

BRB says
"At the end of every turn (yours and your enemies) you check to see if you have achieved any of your active tactical objectives"

This is a state based action.
You check at the end of each turn.
Meaning you read the effect of the objective at the end of each turn.
Meaning its context refers to the timing of when you are reading.
Thus, "this" can not mean anything but at what ever turn it is you are in when the state based action triggers.

That is standard rules parsing.

AKA
if end of a turn = YES then
Check objectives (Meaning read objectives) [this is done at a certain state (i.e. end of either players turns), and at this state is when "this" is referring to (As the word "this" is not a variable that stores the timing of when you drew it, rather, it is a word that refers to the current state of time)]
if objective is achieved gain victory points.

You do not "check" objectives when you draw them (the turn you draw them is not a current state for "this" to apply)
You check objectives at the end of a turn (thus the end of every turn is the "this").

I can't really cite why the word "this" refers to the current state,,, its only one of the oldest words in the English language. That's on you to figure out.
Therefor, it is always "this turn" otherwise the card would have to say "that turn."

Just like if I had a formal letter that said "pay your bills on this day" with no specific date.
Reading the letter is a state based action for me to do.
So my bills could never be late,,, it doesn't say to pay them by "that date."

There is nothing in either the BRB that states you replace the word "this" with "turn 1, 2 , 3" respectively when you draw it. There is also nothing about the objective itself that says this.

For example:
If I wrote in this thread
"This is how grammar and English reading works"
You are reading it here and now, this is the context of your "state"
I am clearly not referring to an older post.
If you claimed I was,,, that would be a stretch.

If you check it every turn, as per the BRB then "this" is re-read every turn as a state based action. Therefor the only way to read "this" is to apply it to the current turn. If you don't like it, go talk to some angle-saxons who were developing old english for the first time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:


You're told to check every turn.
The Card asks if you did the thing this turn.
If you did, you score it. If you did it next turn, its no longer this turn, so you can never score it, and should discard it.
Simples.

Your treating it as though time doesn't move forward lol.
You do not check / claim the objective the turn before you achieved it... so you did not achieve it next turn.
Next turn hasn't happened when you check and read the objectives.
You check and read the objectives at the end of each turn.
So when you check and read the objectives it IS "this turn".
Next turn isn't until next turn...... but when we get there,,,,, it will become this turn..... and what was "this turn" becomes last turn.... because the state changes.
Its called future v.s. present v.s. past tense . How we interpret those things change as time itself passes.

For example
If I had a note that stated "This will be a great morning"
and I read it every morning. I wouldn't go "Oh damn, the day I got that note was a great morning."
I also don't go "I wish this said have a great next morning so it would count tomorrow"
What I do do is read it in the context of the current state. So every day my note means it will be a great morning.

And we are done here.