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Alright, so after further input from other players on the site I overhauled the army yet again. This time I have the Bullgryns taking the Brute Shields instead of slab. Each of the infantry squads has been changed so that they either have two meltaguns or two plasma guns to make them more specialized. Also one of the Astropaths was changed out for a Primaris Psycher so that I was able to divide the army and form two battalion detachments instead of one.

Militarum Tempestus 2K

{Battalion Detachment #1}

<HQ>
• Tempestor Prime [53 Points Total]
- Tempestus Command Rod
- Powerfist

• Primaris Psycher [44 Points Total]
- Psychic Stave

<ELITES>
- Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [70 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hotshot Laspistol (2)
- Hotshot Lasgun (1)
- Hot-Shot Volley Gun (2)
- Medi-Pack
- Vox Caster

- Bullgryn Squad [126 Points Total]
• Bullgryn (3)
- Bullgryn Maul (3)
- Frag Bomb
- Brute Shield

- Bullgryn Squad [126 Points Total]
• Bullgryn (3)
- Bullgryn Maul (3)
- Brute Shield
- Frag Bomb

• Astropath [32 Points]
- Telepathic Stave

<TROOPS>
- Militarum Tempestus Scions [77 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (1)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Plasma Guns (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hotshot Laspistol

- Militarum Tempestus Scions [77 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (2)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Plasma Gun (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hot-Shot Laspistol

- Militarum Tempestus Scions [77 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (1)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Plasma Gun (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hot-Shot Laspistol

- Militarum Tempestus Scions [77 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (1)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Plasma Gun (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hot-Shot Laspistol


{Battalion Detachment #2}

<HQ>
• Tempestor Prime [53 Points Total]
- Tempestus Command Rod
- Powerfist

• Tempestor Prime [53 Points Total]
- Tempestus Command Rod
- Powerfist

<ELITES>
-Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [70 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scions (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (2)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (1)
- Hot-Shot Volley Gun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Medi-Pack

• Officer of the Fleet
- Laspistol

• Officer of the Fleet
- Laspistol

• Officer of the Fleet
- Laspistol

<Troops>
- Militarum Tempestus Scions [83
Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (1)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Meltagun (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hot-Shot Laspistol

- Militarum Tempestus Scions [83 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (1)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Meltagun (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hot-Shot Laspistol

- Militarum Tempestus Scions [83 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (1)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Melta Gun (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hot-Shot Laspistol

- Militarum Tempestus Scions [83 Points Total]
• Tempestus Scion (4)
- Hot-Shot Laspistol (1)
- Hot-Shot Lasgun (2)
- Vox Caster
- Meltagun (2)
• Tempestor
- Chain Sword
- Hot-Shot Laspistol

<FLYERS>
- Valkyrie Squadron
• Valkyrie [137 Points Total]
- Heavy Bolter (2)
- Multi-Laser (1)
- Multiple Rocket Pods (2)
• Valkyrie [133 Points Total]
- Heavy Bolter (2)
- Multi-Laser (1)
- Hellstrike Missiles (1)
• Valkyrie [137 Points Total]
- Heavy Bolter (2)
- Multi-Laser (1)
- Multiple Rocket Pods (2)

• Vendetta Gunship [246 Points Total]
- Heavy Bolter (2)
- Twin Lascannon (3)

I would be more inclined to run the Bullgryns in one large unit, so that all of them can benefit from Nightshroud and/or Psychic Barrier. As for Vendettas, they're just bad for their points. A 246 point flyer that when it moves hits on 5+ with its Lascannons and Heavy Bolters just doesn't impact the game in any meaningful way. All it does is eat up 12% of your points allotment. You would be better off running a couple of Taurox Primes with Autocannons and Missile Launchers. They'll provide far more reliable long-range fire support.

The Bullgryns had to be divided so that they could fit in the Valkyries so I could drop them in close.

I took the Vendetta because I wanted to keep the drop-troop aesthetic, I figured the officers of the fleet could help improve their accuracy, and because I already own the upgrade kit. Taking Taurox's would just break the theme, and going along with aesthetic I think they look terrible.

I guess if you don't want advice on models, then why have you asked the forum for opinions?

The Vendetta is objectively a really poor model on the tabletop.

I could always try a vulture?

It ultimately depends on what you’re trying to achieve with the unit. I plan to use 3 vulture with punisher gattling to clear chaff turn one for my scions to drop in t2.

I have t primes with missiles and auto cannons for the high toughness units and t primes with gattling and hot shot volley to take units up.

I don’t run Bullgryns in my scions list but I run 8 in my cadian/ catachan force. 8 strong 4 slab 4 brute. Priest and Astropath support with psykic barrier. They are a durable distraction which your opponent has to deal with or face getting walked over by them. 3 man units just are just easier to move and can’t be buffed as strongly.

But at the end of the day you should play and build your army to the theme you want with the models you like.

teratroopa wrote:
It ultimately depends on what you’re trying to achieve with the unit. I plan to use 3 vulture with punisher gattling to clear chaff turn one for my scions to drop in t2.

I have t primes with missiles and auto cannons for the high toughness units and t primes with gattling and hot shot volley to take units up.

I don’t run Bullgryns in my scions list but I run 8 in my cadian/ catachan force. 8 strong 4 slab 4 brute. Priest and Astropath support with psykic barrier. They are a durable distraction which your opponent has to deal with or face getting walked over by them. 3 man units just are just easier to move and can’t be buffed as strongly.

But at the end of the day you should play and build your army to the theme you want with the models you like.

I've heard people like running blobs of Bullgryns now, are they really that durable and frustrating to deal with?

They they are t5 with 3 wounds. You can get them up to a 1+ and a 3++ (1s always fail ofc). They can also get crazy amount of attacks with the right character support.

I think the optimal bullygryn group has a fairly even ratio of brute to slab shields (like that last guy mentioned his 8) -- forcing your opponent to switch back and forth between weapon styles can play hell with his effective kill efficiency. Especially with a big, _+1 save spell buffed unit of 9 bullygryn lurking also in cover and such, you have given your enemy a real headache -- and its nothing really EASY to kill, even if you don't get a chance to buff it, because you start those 2+ armor saves in cover on your first turn, even if you have to spend the CP to do that with a strategem. To a battle cannon on a leman russ, that still puts your save at a 3, just standing there unbuffed, which is nothing at all to overlook.

In an air mobile force, however, remember bully groups that exceed FOUR can't be flown, ever.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I think the optimal bullygryn group has a fairly even ratio of brute to slab shields (like that last guy mentioned his 8) -- forcing your opponent to switch back and forth between weapon styles can play hell with his effective kill efficiency. Especially with a big, _+1 save spell buffed unit of 9 bullygryn lurking also in cover and such, you have given your enemy a real headache -- and its nothing really EASY to kill, even if you don't get a chance to buff it, because you start those 2+ armor saves in cover on your first turn, even if you have to spend the CP to do that with a strategem. To a battle cannon on a leman russ, that still puts your save at a 3, just standing there unbuffed, which is nothing at all to overlook.

In an air mobile force, however, remember bully groups that exceed FOUR can't be flown, ever.

Yep, which is why I have the 2 seperate 3 model teams.

I often run two of them as ogryn bodygaurd characters -- just kit them out in bullygryn plate and a good shield and maul -- and they can be tucked into the odd transport (or even one can accompany the 3 man unit) ... they can heroically intervene and they help keep any support characters you send forward alive, and in a pinch, they can hide behind the valkry till extraction happens.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
I often run two of them as ogryn bodygaurd characters -- just kit them out in bullygryn plate and a good shield and maul -- and they can be tucked into the odd transport (or even one can accompany the 3 man unit) ... they can heroically intervene and they help keep any support characters you send forward alive, and in a pinch, they can hide behind the valkry till extraction happens.

My god, that is brilliant both tactically and in fluff. Well done sir.

Alternatively you can give an ootf the dagger of tu sakh and infiltrate your unit of Bullgryns

Being someone who loves and plays drop troops all the time, I second the 'Don't bother with the Vendetta' crowd.

Take another Valkayrie, or take a vulture. Stormtroopers are pretty poor at dealing with hoards, vulutures are a great counter and a great distraction!

You know if you dropped an officer of the fleet you are 266 of 274 points to buying TWO new valkryies for your pack. 5 acting in concert, that's 10d6 assault rockets and 30 heavy bolter shots, and 15 multilaser. Drop the fleet into hover mode over a bile of deathgaurd, for example, and your antihorde comes from the one thing gaurd always should bring.

Backup.

teratroopa wrote:
Alternatively you can give an ootf the dagger of tu sakh and infiltrate your unit of Bullgryns

Can't actually, they need to be from the same regiment, and OoTF has no regiment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, wouldn't the Valkyries be more for taking out armor as opposed to hordes? Seems like the Scions would be fairly capable of taking down infantry by themselves or at least in conjunction with Bullgryn

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Also, wouldn't the Valkyries be more for taking out armor as opposed to hordes? Seems like the Scions would be fairly capable of taking down infantry by themselves or at least in conjunction with Bullgryn

The Scions are actually better at cracking armour than the Valkyries because they have BS 3+ Meltaguns and Plasma Guns that can combine with the Elimination Protocols Sanctioned order. Valks can only take a single Lascannon and Hellstrike that both hit on 5+ when you move, which isn't very reliable. Assault 2D6 Rocket Pods, on the other hand, are pretty nice to have against infantry.

Also I was looking into it, would I be any better off taking Crusaders instead of Bullgryn?

They have a 3+ invulnerable save (which could be boosted to 2+), and for every one bullgryn (weapon included) I could have 3 crusaders with power swords. If I add in a priest, they could all dish out 3 Powersword attacks (which are much weaker attacks but with better AP), and I could resurrect one of the crusaders each turn

I use crusaders a lot, They have several subtle advantages over a line of bullygryns. They can define a lot more space with a long line of their bases than 3 bullys can for the samish price. They can go to 2+ invulnerabile saves -- but they are more vulnerable to going second because the cover strat. won't save them from massed bolter fire.. They have some self healing and a few other miracles like fighting twice in a round (very powerful next to a priest, that is potentially 6 swings a model, rerolling all misses, which shreds light infantry like they were paper). Big guns firing at them waste all sorts of hit points that would get a single bullygryn killed. There is nothing in the game funnier than watching someone desperate to end the shieldwall sinking lazcannon, battlecannon, and basilisk fire into 2+ shields and yelling "why won't you ... DIE? Crusader units can be as small as 2 guys, which makes them ridiculously flexible as objective holders or to tuck out of line of sight If you must control terrain without cover in it, they edge out the performance of large bullygryn groups because in those, you lose the ability to pick which part of the unit dies to enemy fire, the first hits are on the uncovered portion, and a few big gun shots can ruin a few bullygryn fast.
Thus, crusader lines without buffs tend to be more vulnerable to massed low power shots but relatively demure about the chacne of a lazcannon being shot at the shieldwall, ( AND the full 30 to 60 swings of the 10 crusaders. Its a brutal little deathstar, and can also hide a couple meleecentric officers from enemy fire -- but not from heroically intervening.

Crusaders are a speedbump that self repairs. Bullygryn are a speedbump that damages things trying to pass it. That being said, I have brought down (or greatly injured) demon princes, biker spam, you name it, with just crusaders. They are also a rather obscure unit, and many players underestimate their tenacity and capacity beacuse they look like medieval gaurdsmen or something. That is not a mistake often made while looking at a bullygryn bomb.

So which would you opt for in my case?

 counterwavecounter wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Also, wouldn't the Valkyries be more for taking out armor as opposed to hordes? Seems like the Scions would be fairly capable of taking down infantry by themselves or at least in conjunction with Bullgryn

The Scions are actually better at cracking armour than the Valkyries because they have BS 3+ Meltaguns and Plasma Guns that can combine with the Elimination Protocols Sanctioned order. Valks can only take a single Lascannon and Hellstrike that both hit on 5+ when you move, which isn't very reliable. Assault 2D6 Rocket Pods, on the other hand, are pretty nice to have against infantry.

4+ If you're in hovermode.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 counterwavecounter wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Also, wouldn't the Valkyries be more for taking out armor as opposed to hordes? Seems like the Scions would be fairly capable of taking down infantry by themselves or at least in conjunction with Bullgryn

The Scions are actually better at cracking armour than the Valkyries because they have BS 3+ Meltaguns and Plasma Guns that can combine with the Elimination Protocols Sanctioned order. Valks can only take a single Lascannon and Hellstrike that both hit on 5+ when you move, which isn't very reliable. Assault 2D6 Rocket Pods, on the other hand, are pretty nice to have against infantry.

4+ If you're in hovermode.

Yes, 4+ in hover mode. I still wouldn't rely on the Valkyries to do the heavy lifting on anti-tank duty. This is also a Drop Force, so with Grav Chut Commando those Meltaguns and Plasma Guns hit on 2+ exploding on 5s if withing half range.

Both crux and bully are useable if you go with a slightly smaller 7 man crux squad and a 3 man bully, you have exactly enough points to put a ministerium priest with chainsword in to buff the hits of both. This giv es you an experiment to use side by side

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Both crux and bully are useable if you go with a slightly smaller 7 man crux squad and a 3 man bully, you have exactly enough points to put a ministerium priest with chainsword in to buff the hits of both. This giv es you an experiment to use side by side

An experiment I shall happily attempt