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if chaos gets anything new It'll be nice. minimal impact for me since my chaos is black legion, but I hope it's good stuff that the other chaos legionarres are happy with

BrianDavion wrote:
if chaos gets anything new It'll be nice. minimal impact for me since my chaos is black legion, but I hope it's good stuff that the other chaos legionarres are happy with

Considering kika claimed only wl traits and relics?

Doubt it.

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, i can just extrapulate how you feel, out of the perspective of someone that has a list even more cut to ribbons by GW.

Traits are worth jack if the army itself is not complete enough in roster thanks to cuts.

Pretty much.

The thing is, DE already has a pretty good selection of army traits. Maybe a couple could do with a slight leg-up but I think they're already one of the better aspects of the codex. Hence, adding a bunch more really isn't going to fix anything.

Know what I would have loved to see? Something like the new Exach powers for each of the DE HQs. Boom. We'd still only have 3 generic HQs, but at least you'd have a lot more options for customisation and/or better focusing them towards a particular role.

It's mostly an issue for armies that are supposedly determined by their individualistic HQ in their behaviour imo.

I've said it before and I'll say it a million times, that what 40k really needs is for EVERY army to have a box like the Space Marine Commander box. And IMHO the next time GW puts out one of their survey's we should press for it.

Yeah I was thinking about this recently- a lot of armies are well served in their overall range but single models are the detail thats missing and its where players/collectors really personalise their force. So needed for most factions.

Selfcontrol wrote:
From Kikasstout, the french rumor monger.

About Chaos Space Marines :

For those who are wondering, I red somewhere there will no modification to Chaos Traits in Psychic Awakening Volume 2. Only things planned are Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics for each legion (except BL, DG, TS and renegade chapters like Flawless Host).

Well, it was nice for the renegades to have something for a little while before being put to the back of the bus again.

And now that I'm looking through this thread again I'll respond. Not that I need to, Red Corsair has made all the relevant points already, that Venoms are pretty good as is and that the xisting Obsessions, particularly Flayed Skull IMO, gives them a lot already (Black Heart is the most popular trait for the obvious reason, Agents of Vect is the most powerful stratagem in the game, but the LGT showed there are a lot of people running Flayed Skull Battalions as well.) and we have yet to see anything in the mix and match that would combine to be as powerful overall for Venoms as we already have.

As for Burnage comment reagrding Drulhari players thinking Venoms are underpowered, thats not quite true as it's more about Splinter Weapons. Being Poison Weapons that wound on a fixed 4+ they are horribly ineffeciant against T3 units, of which we see a lot more of this edition. Add to that that the Splinter Cannon, a RF3 weapon, is a 10pt upgrade over the Twin Splinter Rifle, a RF2 weapon, and it's just too much to be worth it in most cases (the ranges are different, so playstyle has a big effect on wether you think the weapon is worth it or not).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Problem is, while diversity is nice, the Eldar stuff is functionally still a side-grade, not an upgrade to the Space Marines 8.5 power-level.

Iron Hands and Ulthwe were both a 6+++.

GW: Hey Iron Hands players, would you like to add 5+ overwatch, less degrading on vehicles, -1 AP to weapons, +1 attack on all units, move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty, free re-roll 1s on heavy weapons, extra wounds on more units, point drops, ridiculous new WL traits, strats, relics and more to go with that 6+++ ?

GW: Hey Ulthwe players, would you like to trade your 6+++ for a -1 AP to Shuriken under 12" (but not on the rending, and you'll lose Eldrad and the Ulthwe strat/relic/WL trait)?

This is a serious misrepresentation though. You're comparing a named sub faction to a single option in the build-your-own list, which is particularly egregious when you choose two traits, not just the one. Since Space Marines do this as well, why didn't you make that comparison too?

Also, your making the assumption that the existing Craftworld Traits and Obsessions are going to be left unchanged. Well, you know what they say about assumptions....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kirasu wrote:

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So GW are back to "40k is a setting, not a story", like so many of us have been saying since before the return of Roboute at the end of 7th

That's a good thing IMO. That's the way it should be.

What are you referencing? Everything so far seems to be about Drazhar's personal murder quest story, and nothing about the setting at all.

Voss wrote:
With SM as the harbinger of 8.5, expect more customization options everywhere. Just like how marines 8.0 didn't get <chapter> traits on vehicles, but later codexes did. Expect future 8.5 codexes (or as is more likely the case for other factions, their Psychic Awakening books) to hand out random blobs of customization like this eldar stuff.

I've always thought 8th Ed could do with more rules.

Certainly seems to be the path they're on. I'd personally go for a nice bout of cutting the special snowflake fat and more USRs.

If it was about Drazhar's fluff he should be fighting Karandras, instead of randomly fighting banshees.

Why is Drazhar only ever allowed to fight Karandras? Thats just dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Voss wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
I don't see how TC being +1 to wound can be anything other than a mistake, since this isn't an FAQ or errata so it can't change any of the codex rules, only add new ones.

I don't know where you got that idea. When they updated the daemon kits in Wrath and Ruin, they changed their rules.

Dataslates maybe but not old stratagems.

Didn't isn't can't. They weren't shy about obliterating or altering stratagems in the new SM codex, regardless of whether they came from the previous codex or Vigilus.

Right, except that was a new codex.... This isn't...

Well spotted. Its an overhaul and partial replacement for two. For all their gibber about a 'campaign' (with... no mention of campaign rules so far), this is Eldar and Dark Eldar 8.5.
It seems pretty obvious that GW is setting out to deliberately change things in the two elf books, so the idea that they won't touch certain things seems odd and weird.

It seem more likely to me that they made changes while making updates in the new book, not that they made multiple errors in the preview article.

For most of us we're hoping it's a mistake because otherwise that means that one of the few really good stratagems in the codex has changed from reroll all failed wounds in combat on Coven units for 2CP to +1 to wound in combat for Coven units for 2CP, which means it becomes a much worse version of Veterans of the Long War for twice the cost. That would be a really bad and uneccessary change.

Well, Torturer's Craft clearly is in the rules-mix somehow as one non-Prophets coven trait now gives a discount on the strat, which is in itself "new".

Also, why add the brackets explaining what the strat does in the first place? They name-drop plenty of rules in the article without ever telling or hinting at what these rules actually do.

I am super excited for the idea of pick-your-own-traits coming to every army.

My wife is getting into Drukhari and particularly likes Scourges, so we plan to look through the list together and figure out what would fit that unit.

I have been building an army of crab-themed Tyranids, but none of the hive fleets available to me really capture the 'feel' I'm going for (high durability, close combat focused).

And for my Renegade Guard, this'll be the ticket for properly representing them as zealous rabble, rather than shoehorning them into either Catachan (for the melee focus) or Valhallan (for the ignoring morale). Back in 4th Ed you could pick doctrines to augment your army in characterful ways, so this seems to be coming full circle.

I'm sure that the ability to further min-max is going to play merry hell on competitive balance. But as a non-competitive player, I'm looking forward to Your Dudes really becoming Your Dudes.

Well, Scourges don’t get Kabal/Cult/Coven traits unfortunately..

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, Scourges don’t get Kabal/Cult/Coven traits unfortunately..

Well I can safely say that Scourges could get absolutely disguting to use with some traits. Like with Flayed Skull trait.

Sotahullu wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, Scourges don’t get Kabal/Cult/Coven traits unfortunately..

Well I can safely say that Scourges could get absolutely disguting to use with some traits. Like with Flayed Skull trait.

Honestly Scourges could probably use the boost, without Obsessions they're outshone by other heavy weapon platforms that Drukhari have access to.

Sotahullu wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, Scourges don’t get Kabal/Cult/Coven traits unfortunately..

Well I can safely say that Scourges could get absolutely disguting to use with some traits. Like with Flayed Skull trait.

Um...How, exactly? +3" movement doesn't really matter since they deep strike and then immediately die 99% of the time, most of their guns aren't Rapid Fire besides Splinter Cannons, which would be nowhere near the best loadout even with RR 1s to hit, and ignore cover...kind of matters? But, just Ignore Cover in and of itself is a weak enough trait that in Codex: SM they gave them a second half of their power. And it's not like SM Devs and Havocs can't get Ignores Cover...why is it OP on scourges, which are basically the same thing but flimsier and deep striking?

The thing with Scourges is that they're heavy-weapon platforms that are based on speed, yet still suffer the normal penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons.

I will say once again that 7th edition Corsair Balestrike Bands were everything Scourges should have been.

 catbarf wrote:
I am super excited for the idea of pick-your-own-traits coming to every army.

My wife is getting into Drukhari and particularly likes Scourges, so we plan to look through the list together and figure out what would fit that unit.

I have been building an army of crab-themed Tyranids, but none of the hive fleets available to me really capture the 'feel' I'm going for (high durability, close combat focused).

And for my Renegade Guard, this'll be the ticket for properly representing them as zealous rabble, rather than shoehorning them into either Catachan (for the melee focus) or Valhallan (for the ignoring morale). Back in 4th Ed you could pick doctrines to augment your army in characterful ways, so this seems to be coming full circle.

I'm sure that the ability to further min-max is going to play merry hell on competitive balance. But as a non-competitive player, I'm looking forward to Your Dudes really becoming Your Dudes.

Is there something to suggest this pick-your-own-traits thing is coming to armies beyond loyalist Astartes and Eldar/Dark Eldar? I haven't been keeping a very close eye on things.

 vipoid wrote:
The thing with Scourges is that they're heavy-weapon platforms that are based on speed, yet still suffer the normal penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons.

I will say once again that 7th edition Corsair Balestrike Bands were everything Scourges should have been.

On the other hand Scourges have access to only 1 Heavy weapon, the Dark Lance, so thats not really such a big deal. Agreed about the Balestrike Bands though. Of the Obsessions the only one that would be any real benefit to them is Obsidian Rose's +6" range.

Sunny Side Up wrote:Well, Scourges don’t get Kabal/Cult/Coven traits unfortunately..

Oops. Knew there was something I was forgetting.

Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Is there something to suggest this pick-your-own-traits thing is coming to armies beyond loyalist Astartes and Eldar/Dark Eldar? I haven't been keeping a very close eye on things.

Not really, but it would seem really weird for GW to only do that with Marines and the participants of the first Psychic Awakening book. I figure at this point it's a pretty safe bet that they'll be implementing the same system, or something like it, for each participant in the new sets. I could always be disappointed.

Aside from losing Disarming Strike, has Jain Zar changed at all? It seems bizarre that GW are hyping up all of the abilities that she... already had?

 Burnage wrote:
Aside from losing Disarming Strike, has Jain Zar changed at all? It seems bizarre that GW are hyping up all of the abilities that she... already had?

Nope. I just compared and she is exactly the same. Same stat line, same wargear with the same stats, same special rules.

Just lose Disarming Strike for the rule they showed off 3?? weeks ago.

Also is it me or did Drazhar win the combat round 3 but they just went "no wait actually Jain zar totally did a backflip and ninja killed him!!!!"??

Dudeface wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
From Kikasstout, the french rumor monger.

About Chaos Space Marines :

For those who are wondering, I red somewhere there will no modification to Chaos Traits in Psychic Awakening Volume 2. Only things planned are Warlord Traits, Stratagems and Relics for each legion (except BL, DG, TS and renegade chapters like Flawless Host).

Well, it was nice for the renegades to have something for a little while before being put to the back of the bus again.

Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?

No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place

 Burnage wrote:
Aside from losing Disarming Strike, has Jain Zar changed at all? It seems bizarre that GW are hyping up all of the abilities that she... already had?

I would argue she was nerfed. At least against other characters, without Disarming strike, she stands no chance against current era of 3++ and damage 3 pwnhammerz.

It is a fight between invalids from begone era.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Maybe it's because Renegades shouldn't be handled in the CSM codex in the first place and handled in the base Vanilla SM codex?

No. Renegades should absolutely be in the CSM codex and legions should be left in the 30k game in the first place

I guess we could talk about "should" all day, though I see little point. They're both in the CSM codex. Nothing stopping anyone from using CSM models to make a loyalist list, though.

Maybe Renegades should be placed in their own "Codex: Blackshields"...

 Shadenuat wrote:

 Burnage wrote:
Aside from losing Disarming Strike, has Jain Zar changed at all? It seems bizarre that GW are hyping up all of the abilities that she... already had?

I would argue she was nerfed. At least against other characters, without Disarming strike, she stands no chance against current era of 3++ and damage 3 pwnhammerz.

It is a fight between invalids from begone era.

Yes, I'd agree she's been nerfed. Storm of Silence is massively inferior to the old Disarming Strike.

Jacob29 wrote:

Also is it me or did Drazhar win the combat round 3 but they just went "no wait actually Jain zar totally did a backflip and ninja killed him!!!!"??

Yeah, I also got that impression. Unless the second time fighting from Drahzar was already accounted in the description of him doing 4 wounds. Otherwise they basically copped out and had him lose even though he would have had another set of attacks.

Well... Todays article is disappointing. I expected more changes to be made to Jain, or at least some kind of Invuln save etc.

Can't see the point of the "Duel" either, as it's pretty clear that whoever charges the other will win 99% of the time - just like with most characters when charging into their "optimum" targets.

Lots of hype for the new models, yet, as others have said, completely pointless as the model, game wise, hasn't changed.

That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).

Glad to see Drazhars ability has changed from +1 to hit to +1 to wound, this is far better as he gets to benefit from it and Incubi will definitely want that buff to wounding.

So disappointed to see them keep Phoenix Lords underwhelming. With a chance to create unit diversity in the Eldar codex...they instead chose to do nothing.

Sterling191 wrote:
That is an absolute trash statline for Jain. Unless she's clockin in at ~80 points she's never going to see play (and even then there will be faaaaaaaar better options).

Yeah, I scoffed when I read her stats. Destroyer Lords have better stats. Higher toughness, higher strength, same number of attacks, same wounds. The only thing that it loses out on is WS and BS, but its 3+ rerolls 1, so almost 2+.

Looks like a big buff for Incubi if that is accurate. Lethal precision on the unit, not just the champion is great. With a +1 to wound on top, they are petty deadly killers getting 3D on 5s and wounding most things on 3s or 4s. They'll really do a number on primaris, but each wound will need to be rolled individually, which will be a pain with the numbers of attacks involved.