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Made in us
Spawn of Chaos




Bellevue

Massive alpha strike/ turn 1 dominance
Unpenatrable gun lines
Power multipliers being applied to units 3-5 times more powerful than intended
Turn 1 charges
Power creep all over the game as a result of key units being overpowered
Weird rules/ gaming the system
Cheaters

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 brazenjaw wrote:

Cheaters


I'm not quite sure how your list is a proposed rule thing; or rather what the context is besides generic complaining; but cheaters are nothing to do with the rules system. A cheater can be in any game from chess to snakes and ladders to warhammer.

Now mistakes can be more commonplace in a wargame in general because of the complexity of rules; because of edition changes; because of inaccuracies in gameplay (measuring etc...); however those are mistakes not cheats. Though often its hard to tell the two apart and often cheaters are only spotted because they will not only make repeat mistakes, but make mistakes that nearly always benefit themselves in the situation.

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Are there any proposed rules here?

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 brazenjaw wrote:

1: Massive alpha strike/ turn 1 dominance
2: Unpenatrable gun lines
3: Power multipliers being applied to units 3-5 times more powerful than intended
4: Turn 1 charges
5: Power creep all over the game as a result of key units being overpowered
6: Weird rules/ gaming the system
7: Cheaters

1: Not a game function, you'd have to go in to every single problem rule and cost in the game and address them individually. Like what has been suggested for Necrons in a thread here, nerfs to some of the big alpha strike stratagems. The Doomscythe Stratagem that wins you the game against Tau if it goes off by doing 20 MWs on a good turn. Nerfing the Destroyer Stratagem that improves their shooting by 40-80% for a turn. The same thing would have to be done for every single problem unit and stratagem/trait/relic, there's also a thread up for wish-listing pts for CA2019 which might fix a lot of these issues.
2: That's just a measure of inbalance between the two armies, there is no unbreakable wall, you just haven't brought the right tool for the job.
3: Again you'd have to go in and limit individual rules and Stratagems like making Tesla not work on 6+ but unmodified 6+ so it doesn't scale with +1/+2 to hit. You'd have to change things like Orks More Dakka Stratagem so it doesn't work when a unit shoots a second time in the same shooting phase. Create rules that replace available aura buffs from your faction instead of adding to them, no +1 to hit Stratagems for SM, instead re-roll hit rolls of 1 Stratagems. Increase the cost of certain Stratagems based on the PL or pts cost of the target.
4: Nerf the individual rules, alternatively you can make a rule where on the first battle round you can't pile into or consolidate into a unit you did not charge. Make it impossible to combo with certain other things, like if you Veil of Darkness you cannot use the Fight twice Stratagem in the same turn. Or just make some of these Stratagems unavailable turn 1.
5: It might also be an effort to increase sales in the short term, that has been a reason for it in the past, it might also just be GW seeing some things never getting used. Like the Necron relic that gives a 5+ FNP is never used, so we'll try and make a Ynnari Relic that halves all damage and gives a 5+ FNP. It might be a misguided effort not to power creep, but simply create rules that are on the power curve and are an option, but fail and become even more OP than the OP choices of yesterday. The answer is to nerf the relevant rules on an individual basis, there are threads for individual factions and I mentioned the pts thread, if you want to discuss the rules for a faction then you could just start a new thread for it and make your suggestions or write up your thoughts.
6: I already made a thread for weird/gamey rules and suggestions for making the game less about knowing the mechanics of the game and instead have a focus on just having fun/more general strategy.
7: Take it up with your opponent when you catch them, tell them that it won't fly. Ask people they've played with if it's a habit, go to community leaders and judges and warn them. As others have said it's hard to create rules for this. One part is making simple rules, it's harder to obfuscate and confuse your opponent if there are fewer rules to think about. Another part is having clear rules for how the game should be played, should you pick up your hits and roll them or pick away the misses and then pick up the hits? The latter makes it harder to cheat, but it's not in the rules so you can do whatever you want. Not having rules with tiny margins of error or things that humans are bad at, limit the amount of math required to play the game, get rid of rules like scatter dice which requires you to understand and visualize vectors in a 2d gaming board in a 3d world. These are things that computers and robots like me might be good at, but is harder for players to do.

Rules made for robots rather than humans makes it harder to see when a player is cheating and when they are making a mistake. What's 27*4? That's something a lot of people will get wrong over the course of hundreds of thousands of 40k games. How about counting, talking and counting at the same time? Then there is time, use chess clocks when you don't have infinite time for your games. Learn to use a chess clock and make them mandatory if either player wants to use them. Write easily understandable rules and amazing errata and FAQs that leave nothing up to interpretation.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/09/16 15:55:33


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Turn 1 charges are hardly game breaking considering that the worst "offender" would be berzerkers and that involves A LOT of steps & CP's & lucky dice rolls to pull off.

Assault in 8th ed in general is broken in literal sense - in that it fails to have any meaningful impact despite the efforts required to pull it off.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 skchsan wrote:
Turn 1 charges are hardly game breaking considering that the worst "offender" would be berzerkers and that involves A LOT of steps & CP's & lucky dice rolls to pull off.

Assault in 8th ed in general is broken in literal sense - in that it fails to have any meaningful impact despite the efforts required to pull it off.


(berzerkers can't one turn charge though? anymore)

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1. This stems from two issues; the ease of getting to attack with every model every turn, and the poor durability/damage balance. If it were harder to attack and attacks didn't kill things as much the alpha strike wouldn't be as punishing, but that requires you bring back things like no-move-and-fire-at-all weapons, vehicle arcs, no splitting fire, and restat/recost just about everything.

2. This is similarly derived from the damage/durability imbalance in that if things are too easy to kill a ranged army can leafblower a melee army off the table before they get close enough to do damage.

3. This is based on two problems; the desire for simpler rules means we get more global buffs to all attacks this unit makes, and scale creep means you can't accurately cost the buff if it could affect a five-man Dire Avenger unit or a Wraithknight (for instance). You could address it by limiting the effect of the buffs (imagine, for instance, a reroll ability that let you reroll only three dice when a unit attacks instead of rerolling all of them), or you could address it by restricting the scale creep by restricting big expensive killy things.

4. See 1 and 2 for why turn 1 charges are necessary for melee armies to function in the game. Address that and you don't need the turn 1 charges.

5. ...This is the root of all the problems?

6. Examples? Flamers auto-hitting aircraft and the tri-point melee lock are the obvious examples, but those are accidental consequences of the simplification of 8th and if you want to address those you need to significantly rewrite both weapon/unit keywords and the concept of being 'engaged in melee'.

7. Vict has the right of it. You can't stop cheaters but if the game is simpler you can make it harder for them to obfuscate the fact that they're cheating/accidentally do things they're not allowed to do and then get accused of cheating.

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 skchsan wrote:
Turn 1 charges are hardly game breaking considering that the worst "offender" would be berzerkers and that involves A LOT of steps & CP's & lucky dice rolls to pull off.

Assault in 8th ed in general is broken in literal sense - in that it fails to have any meaningful impact despite the efforts required to pull it off.


Ork boys, Genestealers, tzaangors, smash captains are all pretty common occurences.

But this point that OP made contradicts another of his points : Gunlines being unpenetrable. The best counter to a stacked gunline is to send some melee units into it to lock as many models as possible.
   
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

I’ll add

- CP Batteries
- Excessive Deepstrike abilities
- Inequality of stratagems and stratagem combinations
- Aura effects (primarily 1 vs. multiple unit efficiency)
- IGOUGO polarization
- FNP creep (roll to hit, reroll to hit, roll To Wound, reroll To Wound, roll to save, reroll save, roll to save yet again, regenerate and then take a shot before removed from play)

It never ends well 
   
 
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