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Just a thought that popped into my head. Open topped means that the units inside a vehicle suffer the same penalties & modifiers as the vehicle (specifically calling out for moving & shooting).

If a SAG mek moves to a battlewagon and gets in, and the battlewagon doesn't move, is the SAG mek at -1 to hit when he shoots for having a heavy weapon?

 some bloke wrote:
Just a thought that popped into my head. Open topped means that the units inside a vehicle suffer the same penalties & modifiers as the vehicle (specifically calling out for moving & shooting).

If a SAG mek moves to a battlewagon and gets in, and the battlewagon doesn't move, is the SAG mek at -1 to hit when he shoots for having a heavy weapon?

Open Topped does not say they no longer suffer their own penalties, so the model still counts as moving even if it's open-topped transport did not. When they do so all restrictions and modifiers that apply to this model (the open-topped) also apply to the shooting model... But not ONLY the restrictions and modifiers that apply to this model (the open-topped transport)...

As usual GW haven't written the rules properly so it's ambigious as to what the truth is.

On the one hand, the unit moved to embark. On the other, units in transports cannot normally be effected by things.

Transports
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked.

The minus to hit would affect it in any way. So no, you dont suffer the penalty. If, however, the open topped vehicle would get any hit modifications the embarked passengers would get those as well.

It moved, so it moved. Not sure what else there is to say here, other than attempted rules stapling-together.

 p5freak wrote:

Transports
Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked.

The minus to hit would affect it in any way. So no, you dont suffer the penalty. If, however, the open topped vehicle would get any hit modifications the embarked passengers would get those as well.

It is not a "normal" situation, as they have been given permission to shoot. Therefore usual effects of shooting apply.

The unit moved, so it suffers the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Open Topped does not say Replace the unit's status with the vehicle's status, it says the unit has the same status as the vehicle. So IN ADDITION to being inside the stationary Open Topped vehicle, the unit moved to embark and counts as moving.

If you really want to fry your noodle, start wondering if a model that DIDN'T need to move to embark counts as moving for entering an open topped transport and then shooting. If the unit is already within 3" before the open topped transport moves, they can embark. Debarking specifically says the model counts as moving, even if they don't move another inch. Embarking has no such callout.

Dadavester wrote:
The unit moved, so it suffers the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Citation please where it says the unit that wants to embark has to to make a move if it wants to embark on a vehicle.

 p5freak wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
The unit moved, so it suffers the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Citation please where it says the unit that wants to embark has to to make a move if it wants to embark on a vehicle.

This is a good point. Removing a unit from the table does not necessarily mean they've moved.

It's somewhat similar to the deepstriking Executioner debate from the other day, except in this instance we are not explicitly told to count the unit as having moved.

So the question here with a unit going from a location on the battlefield to 'null' location, does that constitute moving in itself?

I don't know if a citation is necessarily required, because the unit is clearly not where it was, so it has certainly in a sense moved. The question is what the counts as in game.

I'm leaning to this being a grey area that has no RAW solution.

 p5freak wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
The unit moved, so it suffers the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Citation please where it says the unit that wants to embark has to to make a move if it wants to embark on a vehicle.

The Op's question was if a unit moved to, and embarked upon, a battlewagon So the unit did move before embarking and as such suffers the -1.

Now if the question was regarding a stationary unit embarking on an open-topped transport and then shooting? That is different and tbh RAW probably doesn't count as moving. HIWPI is it suffers the -1, as would all of my group, but I accept that is maybe not strict RAW.

Dadavester wrote:

The Op's question was if a unit moved to, and embarked upon, a battlewagon So the unit did move before embarking and as such suffers the -1.

But if it suffers -1 to hit it would be affected in any way, which isnt allowed by the transports rule.

I run Orkz and, honestly, this seems a bit too cheesy to use in friendlies. But, I agree. Technically, once you Embark, you'd no longer take the penalty to hit. You could even Advance the unit and still shoot a Heavy weapon inside it. Again, this is VERY cheesy and likely to upset your opponent immensely, but it IS RAW.

Here's the Open-Topped Rule, for reference.

Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on.

As you can see, because of the Transport rule saying that a unit is unaffected by, and cannot do, anything while embarked, the Open-Topped rule only applies the following caveats to that: the unit inside can shoot and any modifiers or restrictions the Transport has applies to the occupants as well. The only RAW way to reconcile both rules so they both work is that any modifiers or restrictions that apply only to the embarked unit would no longer apply once Embarked.

The transport rule is,

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."

Where does it say the -1 to hit doesn't apply? It doesn't. It states abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect. The -1 to hit from moving is not an ability.

So a unit that has moved and embarked suffers the -1 to hit. If you disagree can you provide a citation showing it?

Well, right in your quote: "...cannot be affected in any way..." Emphasis mine. Unless you can come up with a coherent argument that applying a penalty to hit is somehow not being affected in any way, then the rules technically allow moving, embarking, and then firing without penalty. You may not like it (I sure as hell don't, and it ain't something I would allow in any game I'd play), but if you wanna argue RAW, you gotta have your RAW straight. If you wanna argue HIWPI, that's fine, but be sure to make that distinction.

 flandarz wrote:
I run Orkz and, honestly, this seems a bit too cheesy to use in friendlies. But, I agree. Technically, once you Embark, you'd no longer take the penalty to hit. You could even Advance the unit and still shoot a Heavy weapon inside it. Again, this is VERY cheesy and likely to upset your opponent immensely, but it IS RAW.

Here's the Open-Topped Rule, for reference.

Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on.

As you can see, because of the Transport rule saying that a unit is unaffected by, and cannot do, anything while embarked, the Open-Topped rule only applies the following caveats to that: the unit inside can shoot and any modifiers or restrictions the Transport has applies to the occupants as well. The only RAW way to reconcile both rules so they both work is that any modifiers or restrictions that apply only to the embarked unit would no longer apply once Embarked.

As you can see the Open Topped Rule does not say any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the passenger no longer apply to the passenger. And the restrictions/modifiers of "movement" on shooting are not abilities that affect other units within a certain range. A unit of sniper scouts that jumped on a Land Speeder Storm still get to pick not closest characters. And having typed that out, I'm now thoroughly entertained. I'm just wondering if I'm entertained enough to do this.

But the Transport rule DOES say that, in that it states "...cannot be affected in any way..." The second sentence of the rule is a separate clause, specifying that, to paraphrase, auras don't work when Embarked. As I stated, the only way to reconcile both the Transport rule and the Open-Topped rule is that the latter provides specific exceptions to the former, and that anything not specified under Open-Topped still falls under the Transport rule.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Dadavester wrote:
The unit moved, so it suffers the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Citation please where it says the unit that wants to embark has to to make a move if it wants to embark on a vehicle.

This is a good point. Removing a unit from the table does not necessarily mean they've moved.

It's somewhat similar to the deepstriking Executioner debate from the other day, except in this instance we are not explicitly told to count the unit as having moved.

So the question here with a unit going from a location on the battlefield to 'null' location, does that constitute moving in itself?

I don't know if a citation is necessarily required, because the unit is clearly not where it was, so it has certainly in a sense moved. The question is what the counts as in game.

I'm leaning to this being a grey area that has no RAW solution.

This. No RAW to cover it so a thread trying to pull the syntax apart isn’t going to bear fruit. If you’re trying to pretend the unit teleported into their vehicle because RAWblahblah then it’s gamey guff that’s really not in the spirit of the game. In-universe they moved so HIWPI is treat them as moving. A unit that moved and fires Heavy suffers the -1.

 flandarz wrote:
But the Transport rule DOES say that, in that it states "...cannot be affected in any way..." The second sentence of the rule is a separate clause, specifying that, to paraphrase, auras don't work when Embarked. As I stated, the only way to reconcile both the Transport rule and the Open-Topped rule is that the latter provides specific exceptions to the former, and that anything not specified under Open-Topped still falls under the Transport rule.

It says they cannot NORMALLY do anything or be affected in any way. We're already outside of normal into Special Case by the fact that they can shoot.

Can Shotgun scouts in a Storm that advances still shoot their assault shotguns? I mean not counting the RAW Assault Weapons can't shoot after advancing meme...

Do Orks get their bonus shots on 6's?

On the turn it moves and embarks, the unit has their own status, and their transport's status. After that they just have their transport's status until they disembark (because they're not on the table to generate their own)

Breton wrote:

It says they cannot NORMALLY do anything or be affected in any way. We're already outside of normal into Special Case by the fact that they can shoot.

Absolutely agreed. The extremist interpretation of the rule is really ridiculous and not worth engaging with.

Despite the lack of concise wording, it would be disingenuous to say you count as moving when disembarking but you do not when you're embarking. FWIW, being removrd via embark mechanics is still nonetheless a form of displacement that occurs during movement phase. YMMV, as always however.

Oops, opened a can of worms here!

Just to clarify, I would never play it that I didn't move to get in the vehicle. I was just curious as to whether there was any such RAW to explain such a scenario.

I don't have the rulebook to hand, but I'm pretty sure that:

1: a unit can move 0" and, providing it declares it, count as moving.
2: Embarking will state "A unit which ends its move within 3" of a transport...", meaning you have to start a move to finish a move, ergo you moved.

As for the whole "cannot normally be affected" scenario, I've said my piece enough times on that one. I'll just say that you are affected because shooting isn't normal, and leave it at that.

Guys just go with RAW and stop interpreting so much. Saying it’s not a normal case because it can shoot doesn’t matter. The unit does not count as being in existence on the battlefield EXCEPT for whatever is mentioned explicitly. They do not count as having moved and the rule specifically says it takes on the vehicles status. You cannot have your own status if you don’t exist for any other purposes.

 skchsan wrote:
Despite the lack of concise wording, it would be disingenuous to say you count as moving when disembarking but you do not when you're embarking. FWIW, being removrd via embark mechanics is still nonetheless a form of displacement that occurs during movement phase. YMMV, as always however.

Can you give me a citation for that ? If you cant then there is no move necessary to embark. And embarked unit dont count as having moved.

 p5freak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Despite the lack of concise wording, it would be disingenuous to say you count as moving when disembarking but you do not when you're embarking. FWIW, being removrd via embark mechanics is still nonetheless a form of displacement that occurs during movement phase. YMMV, as always however.

Can you give me a citation for that ? If you cant then there is no move necessary to embark. And embarked unit dont count as having moved.

Page 183 of the BRB, "Embark:

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it.

to end your move, you have to have moved - it's the end of a move, not the end of a movement phase, thus the model must move to end it's move within 3".

Citation provided!

 some bloke wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Despite the lack of concise wording, it would be disingenuous to say you count as moving when disembarking but you do not when you're embarking. FWIW, being removrd via embark mechanics is still nonetheless a form of displacement that occurs during movement phase. YMMV, as always however.

Can you give me a citation for that ? If you cant then there is no move necessary to embark. And embarked unit dont count as having moved.

Page 183 of the BRB, "Embark:

Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it.

to end your move, you have to have moved - it's the end of a move, not the end of a movement phase, thus the model must move to end it's move within 3".

Citation provided!

To add, movement of 0", as is the case where the transport has moved within 3" rather than the unit trying to embark having moved, is still nonetheless a movement. As per RAW, if you declared the unit embarking has not moved for that turn, it cannot embark on a transport as it has not moved, because the unit trying to embark must end its move within 3" of a friendly transport.

GameDadZ wrote:
Guys just go with RAW and stop interpreting so much. Saying it’s not a normal case because it can shoot doesn’t matter. The unit does not count as being in existence on the battlefield EXCEPT for whatever is mentioned explicitly. They do not count as having moved and the rule specifically says it takes on the vehicles status. You cannot have your own status if you don’t exist for any other purposes.

As others have proved, your take is not the RAW.

Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.

Open-topped: Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model Fell Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on.

The two rules in question. The former is the "normal" rules for units that are embarked. The latter provides specific exceptions to those rules. Anything it does not provide an exception for still remains "off the table". That includes penalties, bonuses, special abilities, etc.

Again, this is RAW but NOT HIWPI. And, seemingly, not how anyone else would play it either. It's stupid, cheesy, lame, and counterintuitive. But, it wouldn't be the first time that some real dumb RAW was ignored by the entire community (including GW themselves). *looks at Assault Weapons*

 some bloke wrote:


to end your move, you have to have moved - it's the end of a move, not the end of a movement phase, thus the model must move to end it's move within 3".

Citation provided!

No, sorry. I can select a unit to move, dont move it, and it has ended its movement within 3" of the transport, if the transport moved within 3" of the unit who wants to embark.

 p5freak wrote:

 some bloke wrote:


to end your move, you have to have moved - it's the end of a move, not the end of a movement phase, thus the model must move to end it's move within 3".

Citation provided!

No, sorry. I can select a unit to move, dont move it, and it has ended its movement within 3" of the transport, if the transport moved within 3" of the unit who wants to embark.

By selecting a unit to move, and move it 0", and ending its movement within 3" of a transport still fulfills the condition of having ended the move within 3".

A unit which all of its models are within 3" of a transport that is not selected to move in the movement phase cannot embark on a transport because it did not end a move.