Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I believe the attitudes are starting to shift, albeit slowly. So... let's keep this civil.

I can accept that Primaris might have been a shock to the system of long term hobbyists when they were first unveiled. I certainly wasn't happy myself and I remember it very clearly!

Rewind back in time a few years. 7th edition was starting to wind down and the game was a bloated, broken mess - magnitudes worse than anything today. I had literally just completed a massive re-build of my extensive Ultramarines army. I had fallen in love with the Heresy era Mk4 armours and had painfully replaced most of the infantry in my army with these more exotic looking Astartes. I was also a big collector of Forgeword and had invested in multiple vehicles (I was also playing a lot of 30k back then too).
One day I stopped by my local GW and saw that the store manager was re-basing the store's Astartes army; He was putting every model on a raised base. I asked why he was doing this but he couldn't tell me. This was mere days before the Primaris reveal and I believe many of the store managers had been briefed about the huge release. He was literally trying to raise the Astartes to the same height as the up-coming Primaris. Funny enough he had only just completed the army – same as me with the Ultras...

The big reveal happened and at first I didn't know how to feel. I was both upset and mildly in disbelief and that feeling continued until I saw the models in person. That's when things changed for me and I decided to take the plunge.
As we all remember the rules were not particularly exciting when they first dropped - The Primaris were absolutely not required for an Astartes army to function, and the model line was extremely limited on top of that. I was actually grateful for this! I knew that this wouldn't be the case forever, and it allowed me to collect the army at a leisurely pace as there was no game related need to include the models or rush. Gradually over the course of a year I amassed a big army and continued to add to it as new things were released. I now find myself with over 4000 points of fully painted Primaris and have enjoyed using them very much - especially with the new codex.

I think a lot of people were upset or angry with the release and I do understand the feeling, however after two years I firmly believe it should be subsiding or even gone. I think GW focused heavily on the Ultras for a long time and that also upset people. The Primaris and the Ultramarines were merged as a single enemy of the lore and hobby in people's minds, even though this was not going to be the case in the long term - as we can evidently see now.
I also think that the lack of variety was turning people off as well, but again that was only ever going to be a temporary state for the Primaris. The old range wasn't released in its final state from the start - it began with a few basic kits and it grew over many years and releases. The new range was never going to compete with this in terms of sheer variety out of the gate. It's the same with the lore.

The new codex has been a great success for the hobby and fans of Astartes. The book is high in quality and powerful (perhaps too powerful) and the supplements are allowing for more unique ways to play the various chapters than ever before. Finally they are getting the lore and rules support they deserve and also quality, unique models in most cases. I think this is finally starting to separate the Primaris from the hated Ultras in people's minds lol.

So, more than two years after Primaris were revealed. After many months of complaining from certain parts of the community, after much rage and anger, are we finally starting to see the community shift?
I think so! I'm seeing more topics discussing the Primaris units that aren't being derailed and far less hostility, and the chapter unique models have been very well received by the vast majority - and that is not something that typically happens with a Primaris release! Of course there are still those who have pledged themselves to Nurgle and don't want to see any new releases or change of any kind....

Thoughts?

I think if GW had released the interview with Jes Goodwin where he talks about the Primaris before they were released it would have improved their reception.

The 40k timeline has moved on, and Primaris are part of that change so of course not everyone will embrace them. Personally I find the Infiltrators a bit too 'tacti-cool'.

It would also have helped if we knew what was happening with 'old' Marines - we've seen that they're working on event-exclusive Terminators, but there's not been any generic releases (and FW's releases have slowed down).

I don't think Primaris were ever badly received.

There's the general background noise of haters for every 40K miniature released ever, though I personally didn't feel Primaris Marines spiked above the average in ways that maybe Centurions, Dreadknights or the Stormraven or some of those releases initially did. Maybe the Suppressors and the Invictor got a few more memes than usual, but even that wasn't anywhere near what some GW releases get.

If anything, I always felt more people were disappointed that Primaris didn't have the rules to make them worth fielding for the many people who liked them.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't think Primaris were ever badly received.

There's the general background noise of haters for every 40K miniature released ever, though I personally didn't feel Primaris Marines spiked above the average in ways that maybe Centurions, Dreadknights or the Stormraven or some of those releases initially did. Maybe the Suppressors and the Invictor got a few more memes than usual, but even that wasn't anywhere near what some GW releases get.

If anything, I always felt more people were disappointed that Primaris didn't have the rules to make them worth fielding for the many people who liked them.

I think you're spot on. As usual 5% of people make up 95% of complaints!

I agree with the haters being more vocal than the rest.

I personally love the new models and love seeing my friends field them as they truly look superhuman on the table regardless of rules.

Locally I see more and more people get into Primaris and the new codex has really made people embrace them evern further.

There are a number of design elements I dislike. Things they changed from established lore, that they didn’t really need to do, just to be different. Things like stubbers on the tanks. They could have just stuck with bolters and their kin. But I find it jarring. And the excessive amount of guns on tanks. It’s like they turned the knob up to 11, just because they could. It’s a bit of a slap in the face of decades of continuity and army theming. Which is part of why they have trouble being accepted.

But for the most part I like the models. I think the farther they stray from the basic marine the worse they get, but still not bad. Intercessors and hellblasters are very sharp looking, but agressors and inceptors are starting to look a little cartoonish and toy like. I’m OK with the tacti-cool nature of the phobos stuff.

I would have like there to be more downsides to their lore. Sure, they might be bigger, stronger, tougher, etc. then old marines, but have XX issues, or are more susceptible to YY. Something to make them not automatically invalidate all that came before them. I like how the new dread tends to burn out it’s pilots. That’s a good example. The new thing might be better, but not without cost. Of course, in the 40k universe, marines are willing to pay those costs to keep fighting the foes of mankind.

The GW business practices are not helping them either. No Model, No Rules needs to go die in a fire. It’s an artificial restriction that has no in-universe reason to be. Why can intercessor sargents take all sorts of CC toys, but reivers can’t (despite desperately needing them) or even hellblasters? If a captain wants a power fist, he needs to take a plasma pistol to go with it. but can’t take a power sword and plasma pistol, despite that being the classic wargear option of the well equipped character in most of the lore. A lot of old stuff got grandfathered in, with tons of options to help people cutomize their army. But primaris took it right on the chin.

--

I’ve got a chunk of primaris on the shelf. I’m not replaceing my old stuff, and only adding the things I like. But getting to the point where that’s 1,500 ish worth of new blood. I don’t love them, but can work past my issues and still enjoy them.

No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.

As for wargear mixing, this is a design change in Primaris and not really the topic of discussion. I have no issues with limiting wargear as it prevents spam of stronger combos - eg, smash captain. But again, not the topic.

The models are generally fine. My issues are more to do with what feels to me like a pretty jarring change in the 40K lore, where the Imperium are displaying signs of progress and innovation - hope, even... That's not the grimdark 'humanity is doomed and just staving off the inevitable' setting I'm used to.

It's largely academic to me though, as I don't actually collect imperial space marines - CSM and Dark Eldar.

 Ishagu wrote:
No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.

As for wargear mixing, this is a design change in Primaris and not really the topic of discussion. I have no issues with limiting wargear as it prevents spam of stronger combos - eg, smash captain. But again, not the topic.

One of the common reasons for people not accepting primaris. Is how they don’t fit into the universe. Part of that is all the new toys that Caul is handing out that break with established lore, but another is the out-of-universe restrictions imposed by GW’s rules and marketing team.

It is a barrier to full acceptance of the primaris line, which i thought was the topic of this thread.

Gradually more accepted, but as we've seen from the hate on Ultramarines and Grey Knights, the GW fanbase doesn't seem to let go of things.

So, if someone felt Primaris had issues in initial release, even if those issues have been largely removed or mitigated, there will still be resentment. This is even more amplified with those same people not wanting to read more into Primaris lore (because they don't like Primaris), and then perhaps they might not realise the misconceptions they had which caused them to dislike Primaris in the first place are actually addressed and discussed in said lore.
An example of this is people claiming that "Dark Angels would never accept Primaris because they're protective of their secrets!" - a valid point, until you realise that only one of the three types of Primaris Marines are external Marines reinforcing the DA. There's no reason why a newly inducted Marine who has the Primaris enhancements shouldn't be considered for future Inner Circle status, but a newly inducted Marine without those enhancements should - or that a Captain who has crossed the Rubicon Primaris is now unworthy of being Inner Circle.
Hell, we see in one of the more recent BA novels that Astorath (who can sense the onset of the Black Rage) feels a glimmer of it in some Primaris Marines, who are supposed to be immune.

Basically, I feel that there's a lot of grudge-holding because of initial presentation, and it may be a case that those grudges will be held until new generations come in long after Primaris were introduced and all the "new bad lore" that people dislike because it's new and came out of nowhere becomes well established and commonplace: Vigilus and Cadia being equally established and the Indomitus Crusade being just as well known as things like the Great Crusade.

The biggest problem with Primaris (still is) is that there is no crossover compatibility with the classic marine forces.

For example, normal marines can't go in Primaris transports, and Primaris can't even go in LAND RAIDERS.

It;s becoming harder to blend classic and primaris. It seems to be you either knuckle down and try to field a basically 5th edition army, or you go all out Primaris.

IMO they should have made Primaris a completely separate codex and just buffed the classic marines a bit more.

 Ishagu wrote:
No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.

It's the result of the fallout from the Chapterhouse case and GWs intepretation of it. Most miniature companies dont have a "No model, no rules" policiy and manage just fine.

I can accept that Primaris might have been a shock to the system of long term hobbyists when they were first unveiled. I certainly wasn't happy myself and I remember it very clearly!

Primaris is a logical step of development / evolution.
Tactical Marines are the cornerstone of the dark age,
while the Primaris are the upheaval to a new age, renaissance.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Gradually more accepted, but as we've seen from the hate on Ultramarines and Grey Knights, the GW fanbase doesn't seem to let go of things.

So, if someone felt Primaris had issues in initial release, even if those issues have been largely removed or mitigated, there will still be resentment. This is even more amplified with those same people not wanting to read more into Primaris lore (because they don't like Primaris), and then perhaps they might not realise the misconceptions they had which caused them to dislike Primaris in the first place are actually addressed and discussed in said lore.
An example of this is people claiming that "Dark Angels would never accept Primaris because they're protective of their secrets!" - a valid point, until you realise that only one of the three types of Primaris Marines are external Marines reinforcing the DA. There's no reason why a newly inducted Marine who has the Primaris enhancements shouldn't be considered for future Inner Circle status, but a newly inducted Marine without those enhancements should - or that a Captain who has crossed the Rubicon Primaris is now unworthy of being Inner Circle.
Hell, we see in one of the more recent BA novels that Astorath (who can sense the onset of the Black Rage) feels a glimmer of it in some Primaris Marines, who are supposed to be immune.

Basically, I feel that there's a lot of grudge-holding because of initial presentation, and it may be a case that those grudges will be held until new generations come in long after Primaris were introduced and all the "new bad lore" that people dislike because it's new and came out of nowhere becomes well established and commonplace: Vigilus and Cadia being equally established and the Indomitus Crusade being just as well known as things like the Great Crusade.

This is sadly true. We have literally seen people in this topic say that the setting is less Grim Dark. I am baffled by this opinion. Clearly there is little to no exposure to the new lore.
Read Spears of the Emperor if you want to see a Grim Dark Primaris story!

 Nevelon wrote:
There are a number of design elements I dislike. Things they changed from established lore, that they didn’t really need to do, just to be different. Things like stubbers on the tanks. They could have just stuck with bolters and their kin. But I find it jarring. And the excessive amount of guns on tanks. It’s like they turned the knob up to 11, just because they could. It’s a bit of a slap in the face of decades of continuity and army theming. Which is part of why they have trouble being accepted.

*snip*

I mostly concur with Nevelon.

Fundamentally for me I am never going to like the concept, in part for stuff like the above (the cartoony models, especially the desire to put all the guns on a tank, the departure from 'elite' weapons to use the cheap and cheerful mortal weapons like Heavy Stubbers, what I see as poor rules choices, etc. etc.), but mostly because it ruined much of my suspension of disbelief in the setting. Oh and model scale. Come on, the table isn't getting any bigger, why are the models for every faction...

We had space marines, both humanities saviours and its greatest threat, being meekly replaced with super space marines. They explicitly have no flaws, are whiter than white etc. I could get behind this being a massive upheaval for the Astartes system. I would have looked forward to chapters engaging in effect in a civil war, perhaps realising the High Lords fears around the number of Ultra successors being the basis for a legion. But instead, in a setting renowned for grimdark internal conflict, prideful marines becoming renegades and traitors, the smallest changes resulting in religious schisms lasting centuries... they all went, well these big bad boys are handy, we will promptly replace ourselves. Barely a word about the morale implications and the like - I mean Astartes only seem balanced up to a point...

And the shoehorning seems to be excessive - we don't need for example primaris infantry in the Ravenwing and Deathwing simply because you haven't realeased any suitably fast attack choices or a bigger suit of terminator armour. Just wait for heavens sake rather than upset a fixed and liked part of the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In terms of acceptance, a lot of gaming friends were planning to replace their marines with the new bigger ones. That hasn't happens for a variety of reasons. New players are just getting Primaris, but the replacement plans for friends at least seem to have been shelved for now.

One thing I find is a lot of people where quick to dismiss primaris without sufficant info, but now that the info is coming out people are, not nesscarily entirely sold but certainly a lot more accepting then they where 2 years ago.

We had space marines, both humanities saviours and its greatest threat, being meekly replaced with super space marines. They explicitly have no flaws, are whiter than white etc. I could get behind this being a massive upheaval for the Astartes system. I would have looked forward to chapters engaging in effect in a civil war, perhaps realising the High Lords fears around the number of Ultra successors being the basis for a legion. But instead, in a setting renowned for grimdark internal conflict, prideful marines becoming renegades and traitors, the smallest changes resulting in religious schisms lasting centuries... they all went, well these big bad boys are handy, we will promptly replace ourselves. Barely a word about the morale implications and the like - I mean Astartes only seem balanced up to a point...

At risk of breaking "no negativity", the bolded parts are exactly what I mean by people not actually having read some Primaris lore.
Both the bolded elements are addressed and actually disproved in some places (we can clearly see that Salamanders Primaris still have mutated skin, Space Wolf Primaris are affected by the Canis Helix, and even Astorath can sense the stirrings of the Black Rage in Primaris Marines who, according to Cawl, shouldn't have it). In fact, the Cawl part is the important bit - we only have Cawl's word that they're actually free of genetic problems. Even Guilliman can't be sure if Cawl isn't fudging numbers somewhere, or even if Cawl hasn't used traitor geneseed despite explicit instruction not to. I mean, for how many years were regular Space Marines considered be the apex of what humanity's warriors could be?

As for the "Ultramarine legion" fears, only one generation of Primaris were tube-created. Every generation since has been recruited like how old Marines have been. Furthermore, if the HLOT had any fears about the threat of an Ultramarine "legion", don't you think they'd have been worried that 3/5ths of ALL Space Marine Chapters (and only increasing) were Ultramarine descendants?

On the "barely a word about morale implications", many sources (Knights of Macragge and the White Dwarf Blood Ravens fluff spring to mind) deal with this. However, we don't have things like old Marines taking up arms against them, which I arguably think is better than just more civil war. More civil war just feels overplayed now, and kind of generic - having them actually fight together, understanding that it's necessary for the Imperium, but still having problems with it, feels far more mature.

Again, not to treat this as a personal thing, but just to highlight my point earlier - many of the problems people have with Primaris are based on outdated fluff, and because of their initial issues with them, don't care about learning more, further reinforcing their disapproval, and repeating the circle.

I have to admit, I haven't read any of the Primaris fiction after Dark Imperium, because I didn't enjoy that book at all, and it made me decide to just stick with the Horus Heresy... But the background for the Primaris was really secondary. For me, the turnoff for Primaris was the thinly disguised scale creep. Calling them a new type of marine doesn't really change the fact that the models are just bigger marines.

They sure are pretty, though.

GW's mistake was them mess with the lore and trying to explain true scale marines with Cawl's genius and such. True scale miniatures with new powerful rules would have been more than enough.

Mess with the setting too much, and you get people burning their armies on camera AoS-style.

Every game needs its own 4th edition D&D, eh?

I seem to remember it was more the fluff than the models that raised the real ire, along with 'is x marine subfaction getting left behind', and the perception that it heralded more years of non-stop marine releases after years of heresy and chaos marine releases - between that and forgeworld the game was leaning very heavily to marinebowl 40k.


As usual with the passing of time the players who felt they were being left behind have either found they weren't, or have wandered off to wait it out.

I have been playing in a group with a fair number of new players that don't have the baggage of pre-8th edition for the most part. When it comes to marines, most of them start with Primaris because they think the models look better and they are cheaper via boxed sets. That said, some of them are starting to add non-Primaris marines because there are things Primaris can't do/don't do the same that non-Primaris can. This is mostly vet squads with power weapons or Devastators with las cannons. The point is, they never had an issue with Primaris marines seeing them as an update to model line. It was only after playing a bit did they realize that non-Primaris still have a place at least currently.

I agree that it is mostly people you won't ever meet on the internet griping the loudest. They sometimes have a gris-gris of why they don't like Primaris and probably never will at this point. I know I didn't like the idea of Primaris and never really looked at their models or lore until Shadowspear. It was only when I was painting up the models did I really appreciate the quality of them. For me, the Infiltrators and Phobos armor in general was got me to start a full army of Primaris. I think GW did an excellent job of blending Sci-Fi/SpecOps/Fantasy Ranger/Rogue into a single model. Everything that is 40k to me.

I know several people only see the tacticool elements of Phobos armor. Which I find kinda strange since many of its elements are the same GW use in their fantasy line. It can't help to notice how many fantasy models have bucket boots. I also figure if someone wants to baroque up their models, they probably have a bunch bits they could use or even green stuff something. I like the empty canvas approach rather than having to scrap off all the grimdark/Gothic stuff I might not want.

Some elements of the primaris I like quite a bit - for example, the longer, more rifle-ish Boltguns with rails. They look great.

Generally I like the armor better. I don't really like how reivers have skull helmets, because previously for loyalists that was only Chaplains and I don't like how they watered it down.

I resentfully enjoy the new Dreadnought because even though I love the boxy washing machines.... I know in my heart the new ones are really good.

Some things are just goofy, though. They floating guys with the two guns? Lame idea. The vehicle they have that looks like a floating landraider that someone hit Ctrl-V on guns with too much? Also lame.

On the other hand, some things are so goofy they looped back into cool. I bought my first Primaris model the other day - the Invictor Dread. It was that stupid heavy bolter pistol that did it; I too must have the toughest cowpoke in the grimdark future, pardner. Yes, he will have a star and cowboy hat.

The community is still split after the primaris release. The dislike come from veterans of the hobby, where about half the players seem to hate them. All new players swallow the primaris stuff whole or never get into the hobby anyways.

I think the tone of the discussion around primaris is very agressive or defensive and pulls the players apart instead of bringing them together every time.

I'm not gonna go into yet again why I despise primaris, but I know alot of friends in the hobby that feel the same. The numbers some posters pull like 95% love primaris it is pure BS.

Gitdakka wrote:
The numbers some posters pull like 95% love primaris it is pure BS.

Oh, absolutely, and the inverse applies.
While I'm pretty sure that most people (and by most, I simply mean 50+%) are either indifferent or actively positive of Primaris, it's hard not to argue that the multitude of anti-Primaris threads are not necessarily indicative of how many people actually dislike them. It's why I really do hope that the "no negativity" in this thread is maintained and respected.

So, just registered to the forums, but this is definately a topic I want to give me 2 cents in.

Basially, I'm very much in the camp that doesn't much care for the Primaris, and mostly due to the fluff and how forced the whole thing feels, just in order to sell the idea of bigger figures in-universe (or that's what it looks like to me). Still, I mostly side step the whole issue, in that I pretend the whole 8th edition, fluff nor rules, exist, as I don't have to worry about gaming and can just use the older Codex's as guidelines for my collection. Don't know if that qualifies as "negtivety" but it's what I do.

As for the miniatures, they're Tru-Scale Marines. End of. I quite like the way the miniatures look and I will be updating my old custom Chapter using them once I get the money and time to do so, but that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned. So in summary: fluff sucks, rules don't matter and minis are fine.

Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.

I like some, hate others. The Intercessors and Hellbalsters are pretty good. The new Phobos stuff is OK, but getting a little too tacti-cool for my liking. The Inceptors, Aggressors and Reivers are pretty terrible looking IMO, as are all the vehicles - far too many guns on all of the vehicles and just some really bad ideas for the other models, poorly executed. I dislike the lack of flexibility and how the model line reinforces no model, no rules. And no, it's not because of the evils of Chapterhouse, it's GW's continued misinterpretation of the consequences of the ruling that are the problem there.

The lore is, AFAIC, rubbish. I understand more lore has been written recently which may be better, but the problem GW have is similar to the problems they had when they released AoS. If your initial lore doesn't grab me and interest me, I'm not going to go seeking out the new stuff without very good reason. The whole "they're the best, better than anyone else and perfect in every way" feel of the initial reveal was jarring and poorly handled, IMO. They missed a huge opportunity to move the background forward with a schism within the Imperium itself as these new types of Marines and Guilliman himself appear to upset the status quo. Reading the Codices, there's no evidence of this new and improved background either. Saying it's there, but in a bunch of novels most people won't even have heard of, isn't really a great response to those complaining about their views on the background. GW needs to work harder to push this new and improved background in publications their customers actually read.

They're lovely models. The Inceptors in particular remind me of the Dorvak models I built as a young child. It would be cool if they could all have those heat-shield hoods over their helmets.

However, I don't particularly want to own them, and my urge to play has gradually evaporated since they came out. Haven't figured out if it's related though, so YMMV.

I think as a Dark Angels player I have handled it perfectly.
I was opposed to them in the beginning, I didn't like the aesthetic, didn't want to put my tac marines on the shelf, no place for them in my Ravenwing and Deathwing.....very stubborn. I've accepted a few now....3 aggressors, some hellblasters, even promoted an Lt. But still, their introduction has been very, very slow and deliberate. I haven't met this Lazarus fellow yet so we'll see.

On the other hand, I was sitting on a box of Shadowspear models that just didn't fit with my DAs......and then the Ravenguard came out, and a warsuit. So besides a single squad of vanguard veterans, and a few scouts here and there, the army is full primaris.