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Vankraken wrote:Your example doesn't really illustrate much of anything beyond a lack of unity. The point I'm trying to say is that GW is trying to paint the picture of Space Marines being the heroes who fight the bad guys. There is "hope" with Gulliman being able to rally the IoM and the reintroduction of technology instead of the regression that the IoM has endured for thousands of years. It's less grimdark and the store front introduction to the hobby is painting the space marines as the heroes.
From the Dark Imperium box set on GW's website.
"Mighty warriors and fearless protectors, equipped with the greatest weapons and armour the Imperium can provide, the Space Marines are heroes one and all. The product of ten thousand years’ labour by Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl, the Primaris Space Marines were forged from fragments of the Emperor’s original experiments – they are immensely powerful and capable warriors, even more intimidating in stature than any of their previous brethren, created on the order of none other than Roboute Guilliman himself."
Granted what writers put in their books are going to differ but the material coming direct from GW aimed at attracting new players paints them as the heroes of the setting.

The problem with this point is (and you touch on it yourself) that GW have been doing that for decades already, since before Primaris were even on the horizon. Space Marine have nearly always been initially marketed as "fearless defenders of mankind, demigods of war, genetically superior to any mortal man, armed with the mightiest weapons and finest armour!" or words to that effect. You don't see the whole "oh yeah, they fight for a theocratic totalitarian empire, are massively xenophobic, and progress and enlightenment is painfully slow" until you actually scratch the surface - which, if people did with Primaris Marines, would realise that all the "bestest ever!!!" marketing fluff (which has already been used for regular Space Marines, might I emphasise) is exactly that: marketing fluff.

I'm willing to bet that if regular Space Marines hadn't existed up until now and were released with all their bells and whistles, people would be saying exactly the same about them as they are the Primaris. I imagine one of the only reasons one is accepted more widely over the other is because Primaris are new and Firstborn are not.

I'm sorry but this grumbling bit is hardly conflict or compelling story telling. The problem is that GW hand waves the existance of this Primaris project and everybody accepts it despite this being the zogging IoM where anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility. There's enough fanatics in the IoM that view big E as infaliable so anything done to his holy work (space marines) to change them would be extreme heresy. There are entire orders dedicated to living and dying for the Emperor and yet not one of them raised arms against this ancient toaster clanking around "improving" what their god created?

Except when that ancient toaster is a personal friend/acquaintance of the Emperor himself, an ally of a Primarch (who just happens to also have returned to the Imperium, and, like all Primarchs, is venerated in his own right by practically everyone, even by other Chapters of Space Marines) and coming to the Imperium's aid during one of it's most devastating crises, I think that it genuinely would be accepted.

Who's going to argue with one of the 9 Primarchs, the one who's arguably the second most respected and admired by the Imperium as a whole (1st being Sanguinius, obviously)? Who's going to argue with the Custodes? Who's going to argue with someone the Emperor knew personally and personally instructed to build the Primaris? As much as the Imperium's a place where "anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility", it's also fanatically devoted to the God-Emperor and his divine sons. A Primarch or one of the Ten Thousand come knocking? You're going to be on your knees before you even know what they came to ask.

That's why the Primaris were accepted. The Imperium was in shreds, a literal divine being was asking, and the Primaris themselves were actually impressive.

Badab War was an interesting conflict and it would be even more interesting to have a major conflict between IoM worlds in which there is no true good or bad side but a conflict of ideologies, survival, and circumstance. Again a means to muddy the waters and tell more interesting stories than just "the hero marines/humans fight valiantly against the dangerous chaos/xenos threat".

And you don't need a civil war to show that "there's no good or bad side" - that's just lazy. It reeks of "how can we show the conflict between these idealogies? Let's make them punch eachother!" which just feels dull.

Want to show the conflict? Have the characters actually talk about it. Argue between themselves. Show that Guilliman is needing to compromise on his own values, and then reveal that his many compromises have made him just as bad as the Emperor he sought to be better than. Have some Primaris Marines refuse to aid one of the more savage Chapters (Marines Malevolent), and then due to their refusal to aid them, lose a whole warzone because they expected better from the other Space Marines.

Conflict can be shown in more than civil wars and punching brawls.

@Smudge (Don't feel like editing quote boxes on a phone).
Your right in that GW has been shifting things that way for a while. Its just the combination of the IoM having some hope and them playing up Primaris as the fix to a problem (IoM still has massive problems so its not rainbows and sunshine) is moving things away from grimdark more. Its not a binary thing but a shift in the scales towards less hopelessness which is something that I believe is done to draw in a younger crowd.

When you put it that way (about all the higher ups accepting this change) it does makes some sense but it also highlights just how terribly done the fluff is on the subject. Cawl is very hand wavy and way to influential for a character that never existed before and yet turns the entire setting upside down while weakening a lot of the themes of the setting. Its sloppy writing damaging the strongest aspect of 40k which is its setting (and this isn't bad writing that can be ignored like something made by C.S. Goto for example).

You say that a civil war is lazy but armed conflicts between sides is the bread and butter of how humanity has acted throughout history. I would say that "talking about it" is weak because what happens is you get some grumbling but ultimately everyone falls in line and bands together because the big bad threat makes them see past their differences and realize they are on the same team. If there was more to it like active resistance to these changes and political intrigue (the Inq should be having a gak fit) then maybe but for the most part it comes down to Papa Gman telling the chapters to take their Primaris supplements and some chapters might pout but they ultimately accept them even if they don't like it. You don't have meaningful conflict between ideologies if the side that objects just rolls over. That being said this is 40k and part of the zogging tag line is "Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war"

Again the major fluff hang up I have about Primaris is that GW wrote the plot to fit the goal of having Primaris replace old marines (firstborn is what they call them now?) using some very lazy and destination serving events to make this "fit". It damages some of the themes of 40k and IMO weakens the franchise as a whole. This is a front and center change so its not something that can be ignored. Ultimately though its a change made for marketing purposes to create a new line of Space Marines that gives new products to sell (fair enough) and also eventually invalidate the old line of marines (anti consumer forced obsolescence).

As someone who started around the end of RT and start of 2nd, I like Primaris, but there are certain elements that I find regretful in how they've rolled out.

The first is that it would have been much cooler to have the fluff be more like experienced marines get to go through this new genetic process, but it's so new and rare that only the most battle hardened marines get it. Which, is kind of the Rubicon, but I just wish that was "how babby made" rather than the superior baby marines from the tanks in mars. It just undermines any cool sort of sense of progression and replaces it with, well, a sense of replacement which causes lots of unease. Everyone loves their favorite character getting new hotness in wargear and cooler sculpts, not everyone likes their favorite character getting Old Yeller'ed.

The second part is the lack of compatibility (you can't tell me at least LRs could carry one primaris per teminator...) coupled with the lack of options. Clearly the Impulsor is the new Rhino, which is fine, but A) it's not even out yet and B) we're left to "guess" why it has an el-camino bed that's perfectly square where one might stick say a whirlwind missile launcher looking thing, or a predatorish turret, or an AAA gun, etc.

It's a fact of life that models get refreshed and replaced, but this seems a bit more secretive and it's needless and causing rampant speculation.

Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

Yeah, it's pretty clear where they all come from. I like the awoken, more badass crusade marines kick ass.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?

I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.

 Crimson wrote:
I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.

Or just hearsay from other people that also don't know the fluff. I'm not big on fluff, I got the cliff notes. I'm more into painting and collecting while playing when I can. But I'm not trying to win arguments with my cliff notes. Maybe with all this money GW is making they can commission Stephen King to write a couple novels

Isn't Stephen King the guy that writes those horrible horror books? Wouldn't it be better to hire some really good sci fi writer, or someone who can build interesting world?
I mean if GW took Stephen King, they may as well hire people writing for the historical harlequin line of books. those sell very good.

Stephen King writing for the Warhammer Horror imprint could be interesting, oddly.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.

Or just hearsay from other people that also don't know the fluff. I'm not big on fluff, I got the cliff notes. I'm more into painting and collecting while playing when I can. But I'm not trying to win arguments with my cliff notes. Maybe with all this money GW is making they can commission Stephen King to write a couple novels

What would be the point if people can't even read three paragraphs in the Codex?

And it's not like we haven't had plenty of novels already that expand on Primaris. there's some awkwardness and some holes yes but I expect those will be filled over time.

Stephen King also wrote the Dark Tower series, Shawshank, Green Mile, etc. He's kind of a "jack of all trades" writer who's just remembered for his horror books because when he was writing those, there was a big horror renaissance going on in the media.

Edit: he also wrote The Stand, which is basically modern Grim-Dark.

 flandarz wrote:
Stephen King also wrote the Dark Tower series, Shawshank, Green Mile, etc. He's kind of a "jack of all trades" writer who's just remembered for his horror books because when he was writing those, there was a big horror renaissance going on in the media.

Edit: he also wrote The Stand, which is basically modern Grim-Dark.

Now, if GW hired King, do you think they’d be able to convince him to drug up again? That was how IT was written, after all.

How about Karen Travis she could write a horriable series of stories about a mary sue and her space Marine lvoer who was horrificly recruited to the Marines and made to be a soldier and how aweful the Imperium is for doing that with Marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?

IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.

Flak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?

IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.

"The Indoctrinated" are the new batches of Marines, who are literally being brought in as Primaris.

They're still serving in Scout Companies until they get the Primaris treatments, same as it was before with Marines.

Yeah, no idea what's going on with that Imperial Fist. As we see with the story of Brother Pollandus, he starts as a Scout, is implanted with Primaris upgrades - therefore, even all-Primaris Chapters seem to have Scouts.

My 2 cents on the topic:
I would be completely fine with Primaris if they had the same base stats as old marines (or vice versa, though I would prefer 2W 2A base for all marines, with grey knights and veterans getting 3A etc..). Anyway, the way I see it, old and new should be similar enough that the enhancements simply don't affect in-game stats (similar to how phobos and tacticus armors have the same save). More importantly, if the oldies do get squatted, then I would like them to go out with some umph and I'd hate for Chaos to have inferior marines in the long run. (plus, chaos marines are very nearly as tall as primaris sooo...)

My other gripes are largely aesthetic, and so don't really matter.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.

Or just hearsay from other people that also don't know the fluff. I'm not big on fluff, I got the cliff notes. I'm more into painting and collecting while playing when I can. But I'm not trying to win arguments with my cliff notes. Maybe with all this money GW is making they can commission Stephen King to write a couple novels

What would be the point if people can't even read three paragraphs in the Codex?

That's a fair point

Another thing is that regardless of the Primaris fluff being good or bad it is absolutely not the first time something bad has been written and it seems like right after the gathering storm everything before is taken as gospel now.

The fluff quality has been going downhill since the third edition.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?

Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.

I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?

Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.

I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.

actually a new novel came out about Cawl just now,. it's by Guy Haley whose written the HH story Cawl appered in as well as dark Imperium, Haley seems to be making Cawl "his" character, which ensures constant characterizatrion

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?

Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.

I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.

actually a new novel came out about Cawl just now,. it's by Guy Haley whose written the HH story Cawl appered in as well as dark Imperium, Haley seems to be making Cawl "his" character, which ensures constant characterizatrion

Oh do tell and put spoilers up for those who care!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?

Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.

I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.

actually a new novel came out about Cawl just now,. it's by Guy Haley whose written the HH story Cawl appered in as well as dark Imperium, Haley seems to be making Cawl "his" character, which ensures constant characterizatrion

Oh do tell and put spoilers up for those who care!

afraid I've not read it myself yet. I've often thought it suprising that the 40k lore subforum doesn't have a "revelations from the latest novel" thread everytime a new novel comes out

 Kanluwen wrote:

Flak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?

IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.

"The Indoctrinated" are the new batches of Marines, who are literally being brought in as Primaris.

They're still serving in Scout Companies until they get the Primaris treatments, same as it was before with Marines.

Ok then maybe my SM codex is a misprint, there's absolutely no mention of the "awoken" being anything but indoctrinated new primaris with no experience. I guess I'm just missing where some of these guys are actual HH marines and hardened combat veterans.

Flak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Flak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.

The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.

What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?

IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.

"The Indoctrinated" are the new batches of Marines, who are literally being brought in as Primaris.

They're still serving in Scout Companies until they get the Primaris treatments, same as it was before with Marines.

Ok then maybe my SM codex is a misprint, there's absolutely no mention of the "awoken" being anything but indoctrinated new primaris with no experience. I guess I'm just missing where some of these guys are actual HH marines and hardened combat veterans.

“The Awoken” is an expansion on the lore introduced in the first 8th edition Spaces Marines codex. Within, on page 21, section “The Indomitus Crusade,” subsection “Seeds of Hope:”

Flak wrote:
Ok then maybe my SM codex is a misprint, there's absolutely no mention of the "awoken" being anything but indoctrinated new primaris with no experience. I guess I'm just missing where some of these guys are actual HH marines and hardened combat veterans.

They're not necessarily HH "veterans", like I don't think they ever fought in the Legions, but they were all Legion recruits. They had all the same standards of training that a baseline Legionary would have, just put in stasis before they saw combat. As a result, they're trained to the same standard I imagine any 30k Legionary would be, so are hardly a slouch.

However, what's important to remember is that this was just one generation of Primaris, the first ones. Every new Primaris Marine since the Indomitus Crusade is now either Indoctrinated (a normal Space Marine recruit just with Primaris enhancements) or an Ascended (an old Marine given the enhancement). Any Awoken Primaris will be the last of their kind, and so judging the entire Primaris army on the Awoken alone is a dangerous oversimplification.

yeah it's pretty clear to me that the awoken wheren't old time legionares but folks accepted into the legions who where transfered to what amounted to a black projects division.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Spoiler:

After the fighting was done, the Crimson Fists marvelled at the return of Roboute Guilliman, but were even more grateful for the arrival of Primaris Space Marines bearing their own heraldry. Here were warriors whose genetic composition was closer to their own Primarch, Rogal Dorn, than had ever before existed. For his raw material, Cawl had selected warriors of Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed, some had been held in stasis since the days of the Great Crusade; a few of the Primaris Space Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself. Again and again the crusaders watched the same tale unfold. When those of the Ultima Founding were brought before their Chapters, it was like a meeting of brothers separated at birth.

That seems a little odd, given that the Horus Heresy novels made such a big thing of the division in many legions between the terrans and the later 'true' legionaries. This goes back to what someone referred to earlier - it doesn't feel 'right' that the Primaris additions would have been received with open arms by their Chapters. Everything we've been shown previously suggests that they would have at best been viewed with suspicion and barely tolerated until they could prove themselves, and at worst (particularly for those Chapters with a little less regard for Guilliman, like the Space Wolves or Dark Angels) would have been flat out rejected.

Obviously, it's GW's story, and they can advance it however they choose - but it's discrepancies like this that make it harder to accept them. It would have made more sense for the ready-made Terran Primaris to have been confined to the Ultramarines, where Guilliman could personally oversee their integration and smooth things over where necessary, while sending out tech-adepts to other Chapters to show them how to improve their conversion processes on their own recruits. Some Chapters would still have resisted, and discrepancies would likely have crept in, but the end result would have actually belonged to the Chapter. That latter bit seems to be where they're heading long term, but it would have fit better without the initial 'You get new Marines! And you get new Marines!'

Just IMO.