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It is really powerful even if against only vehicles. This means that you can load up on anti Infantry weapons and they still work well against vehicle. Usually anti tank weapons means you have less anti infantry weapons but this removes that weakness. Cost of opportunity is a thing.

You might think that its bad against infantry lists but you are wrong. Sure it might not directly do anything against non vehicles but thanks to it you will have more heavybolters in your list than any other marine player due to everyweapon is a anti tank weapon.

Heavy bolters and stalker pattern rifles will be really really good. With exploding 6s and ignores cover and ap 2-3 they will trash any infantry 36" away while still being really threatening against tanks and knights. I met 30 IF intercessors armed with the heavy weapon and chapter master+ lt in a guard list and they melted my marines. Now with supplement they will be even worse to face.

So, when can we expect the blue ultra-iron-imperial-fist-hand-marines?

 Xenomancers wrote:


Knights are vehicles. LOL. Imperial fist army is just going to be full of HB and AC and they will obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease. Much like an army buffed by gman without spending 400 points on a buff champion.

A fully boosted BS2+ quad HB CMortis does a whopping...5 wounds to a knight. A stationary (because I'm feeling generous) Asscannon razorback does a staggering...4.

Yup, them vees are just melting away.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Knights are vehicles. LOL. Imperial fist army is just going to be full of HB and AC and they will obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease. Much like an army buffed by gman without spending 400 points on a buff champion.

A fully boosted BS2+ quad HB CMortis does a whopping...5 wounds to a knight. A stationary (because I'm feeling generous) Asscannon razorback does a staggering...4.

Yup, them vees are just melting away.

So it does about the same as 4 lascannons? You seem to be missing the point. You also aren't giving rerolls...because why would a marine player put their entire army in a reroll hits aura...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Knights are vehicles. LOL. Imperial fist army is just going to be full of HB and AC and they will obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease. Much like an army buffed by gman without spending 400 points on a buff champion.

A fully boosted BS2+ quad HB CMortis does a whopping...5 wounds to a knight. A stationary (because I'm feeling generous) Asscannon razorback does a staggering...4.

Yup, them vees are just melting away.

So it does about the same as 4 lascannons? You seem to be missing the point. You also aren't giving rerolls...because why would a marine player put their entire army in a reroll hits aura...

Rerolls for both hits and wounds were factored into the equation. Try again.

I think these rules are borderline broken to be honest. Marines have become too strong.

It wouldn't be too bad if it was just a few rules, but the layers upon layers of buffs that Marines have received put them squarely on top with very little reasonable competition outside of their own supplements.

It's all well and good claiming that other factions will get brought up to their level with their 'v2' codexes but at the moment nothing indicates this. It's also extremely unlikely, as unless other factions get supplements, they just can't compete. I just don't get it - how can anyone think that it's balanced for a single faction to be able to take unlimited relics, have a ton more stratagems than others and get army-wide, massive buffs? Surely this doesn't even pass the laughter test? Surely common sense tells you this isn't balanced?

I don't begrudge Marines their time in the sun, they definitely deserve it. This is too much though. Way too much. It's like someone wish listed a bunch of rules into reality or something. The worst thing isn't the relative power either, one thing will always be better than another, it's the fact that it feels (yet again) that Marines are playing a different game to the rest of us. It was like this for the 18 months while I waited for the Ork dex, every faction with a codex was playing the game fully while I had to make do with a bum basic index and like 3 stratagems. It wasn't fun, not because I lost but because it was just boring. Players like agency and the ability to make decisions (it's fun), why do Marine players get to make triple the decisions I get to make?

Yeah thats why it would as good be made so that all the others can take them now too as it will surely be added later on. It can be easily arranged with the gaming group and it seems fair ?

That certainly would be better in game perspective to release all in full package. I really wish gw would act without marketing strategies.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think these rules are borderline broken to be honest. Marines have become too strong.

It wouldn't be too bad if it was just a few rules, but the layers upon layers of buffs that Marines have received put them squarely on top with very little reasonable competition outside of their own supplements.

It's all well and good claiming that other factions will get brought up to their level with their 'v2' codexes but at the moment nothing indicates this. It's also extremely unlikely, as unless other factions get supplements, they just can't compete. I just don't get it - how can anyone think that it's balanced for a single faction to be able to take unlimited relics,

Honestly at this point, if i end up playing against iron hands, i probably will just concede the game to them. The marines supplements have completely turned me off of playing "competitively". So if i get paired agaisnt an iron hands player during our weekly games at my lgs, im gonna be sad. I don't want to feel like a deick because i tell a guy that i wont play him because of his army, but i also dont want to have 0 fun in the game.

Getting effectively tabled before getting my first turn from Mortars + character dreads + repulsors + all that BS is a gakky way to lose a game.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think these rules are borderline broken to be honest. Marines have become too strong.

It wouldn't be too bad if it was just a few rules, but the layers upon layers of buffs that Marines have received put them squarely on top with very little reasonable competition outside of their own supplements.

It's all well and good claiming that other factions will get brought up to their level with their 'v2' codexes but at the moment nothing indicates this. It's also extremely unlikely, as unless other factions get supplements, they just can't compete. I just don't get it - how can anyone think that it's balanced for a single faction to be able to take unlimited relics, have a ton more stratagems than others and get army-wide, massive buffs? Surely this doesn't even pass the laughter test? Surely common sense tells you this isn't balanced?

I don't begrudge Marines their time in the sun, they definitely deserve it. This is too much though. Way too much. It's like someone wish listed a bunch of rules into reality or something. The worst thing isn't the relative power either, one thing will always be better than another, it's the fact that it feels (yet again) that Marines are playing a different game to the rest of us. It was like this for the 18 months while I waited for the Ork dex, every faction with a codex was playing the game fully while I had to make do with a bum basic index and like 3 stratagems. It wasn't fun, not because I lost but because it was just boring. Players like agency and the ability to make decisions (it's fun), why do Marine players get to make triple the decisions I get to make?

Unlimited relics may become normal in the next round of codex releases, supplements aren't essential if the traits in the codex are good enough.

I think if the combat doctrines didn't include bonus ap ontop, it wouldn't feel quite such a spike, it's just too much stuff layered.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Honestly at this point, if i end up playing against iron hands, i probably will just concede the game to them.

Well I did beat them... Admittedly the guy near wiped me out, but in the process forgot about the objectives so I won on VPs.

But yes if I wanted an anti-tank squadron in my army I would be tempted to make it an IF one.

Simply cries in R&H.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Honestly at this point, if i end up playing against iron hands, i probably will just concede the game to them. The marines supplements have completely turned me off of playing "competitively". So if i get paired agaisnt an iron hands player during our weekly games at my lgs, im gonna be sad. I don't want to feel like a deick because i tell a guy that i wont play him because of his army, but i also dont want to have 0 fun in the game.

Getting effectively tabled before getting my first turn from Mortars + character dreads + repulsors + all that BS is a gakky way to lose a game.

With you brother.

Dudeface wrote:
Unlimited relics may become normal in the next round of codex releases, supplements aren't essential if the traits in the codex are good enough.

I think if the combat doctrines didn't include bonus ap ontop, it wouldn't feel quite such a spike, it's just too much stuff layered.

Man the reason I think supplements are stupid/required for all factions ASAP are because of the tons of stratagems they give the faction. Stratagems are the key to a competitive build and it's bogus that SM get twice as much as literally everyone else.

As well as the multiple layers of AP, Damage etc that you've already mentioned.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Honestly at this point, if i end up playing against iron hands, i probably will just concede the game to them. The marines supplements have completely turned me off of playing "competitively". So if i get paired agaisnt an iron hands player during our weekly games at my lgs, im gonna be sad. I don't want to feel like a deick because i tell a guy that i wont play him because of his army, but i also dont want to have 0 fun in the game.

Getting effectively tabled before getting my first turn from Mortars + character dreads + repulsors + all that BS is a gakky way to lose a game.

With you brother.

Dudeface wrote:
Unlimited relics may become normal in the next round of codex releases, supplements aren't essential if the traits in the codex are good enough.

I think if the combat doctrines didn't include bonus ap ontop, it wouldn't feel quite such a spike, it's just too much stuff layered.

Man the reason I think supplements are stupid/required for all factions ASAP are because of the tons of stratagems they give the faction. Stratagems are the key to a competitive build and it's bogus that SM get twice as much as literally everyone else.

As well as the multiple layers of AP, Damage etc that you've already mentioned.

Yeah - exactly what I am saying. Totally in agreement that space marines are so far ahead of every army right now that it is bonkers. Seriously to the point where you shouldn't actually play against them casually and in tournaments you should just be playing them because they are OP extraordinar. What will the next books be like? Well - given GW's history...I'd say probably more OP.

I was under the impression everyone was scared of IH, knights, and Caladius tanks these days. Wouldn't this curb some of those things and force people to take more varied lists? Im dying to see the return of the classic "Take all comers" list instead of these heavy duty niche lists that use some borderline unfair combination of rules to smash their opponents. I personally love playing against quirky and fun lists at tournaments because I just dont know what to expect. Sure you can play 20 Caladius+32+Knight lists or you can play against an all harlequin list that seriously screws you up or an all knight melee list that is vulnerable yet hard hitting.

I hope that all all armies get some nice Mono only rules to give them some real flavor. Mono only armies like our Xenos pals Necrons, Tau, and Orks really need a little boost to even them out.

My necrons would normally welcome our new power armored +1 damage overlords, but after our best vehicle with QS got kicked in the junk with the fits/sits ITC ruling...not so much.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
I was under the impression everyone was scared of IH, knights, and Caladius tanks these days. Wouldn't this curb some of those things and force people to take more varied lists? Im dying to see the return of the classic "Take all comers" list instead of these heavy duty niche lists that use some borderline unfair combination of rules to smash their opponents. I personally love playing against quirky and fun lists at tournaments because I just dont know what to expect. Sure you can play 20 Caladius+32+Knight lists or you can play against an all harlequin list that seriously screws you up or an all knight melee list that is vulnerable yet hard hitting.

I am afraid that this will have an opposite effect. In a meta you might face the Imperial Fists you either need to take the most obscenely durable vehicles or not bother with vehicles at all.

I think attacking someone for wishing for a fair and balanced ruleset for his faction is weird, that should be what everyone wants, being top dog isn't great, it makes all you victories taste sour. I've seen so many people say that 8th is easy and doesn't feel good to win, I felt that way a thousand times in 7th, such an easy game as far as I remember. I don't remember playing with full-power Decurion in more than a handful of games.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Super Doctrines were a bad idea. The bloat alone of the number of Strats, Warlord Traits, and Relics is bad as is for the game, now we gotta deal with this crap outside of White Scars as, let's be honest, the game is already kinda decided by then.

Yes. And they also ruined the interesting decision making the doctrine system would have otherwise offered.

Doctrines being always on was a bad idea from the start, it gives a huge incentive to stay in dev doctrine all game. Then two thirds of Chapters get an incentive to move out of dev doctrine ASAP to get to a different doctrine and stay there all game, without that it'd just be dev doctrine the codex, so the doctrine benefits are actually needed to fix a fundamentally terrible concept. Dormant doctrines activatable for 1CP one turn and 2CP to activate the same one again would have been an interesting system, with choice and would give reasons for people to build tactical and assault elements into their armies to make the most of all three 1CP doctrines. The codex astartes is meant to show how Guilliman wanted Marines to field varied lists so they don't get blindsided by any one thing, meanwhile, Iron Hands build parking lots and flying circuses while Ultramarines have no dedicated melee units. It's terrible design because it's anti-fluff, it actively discourages building fluffy battle company lists or fluffy first company lists for Iron Hands for example.

The balance remains to be seen once all of them have been released, there might be some internal rock-paper-scissoring going on, which would be fine if it was just for SM vs SM battles, but this isn't Horus Heresy where these rules that massively change how each sub-faction builds their lists might be more appreciated, It's too easy to get by simply not souping, which I guess was the name of the game previously, yay for less soup at least. So far Ultra successors, Iron Hands and White Scars have succeeded, a nerf to Feirros and the stupid stone relic then each SM sub-faction might keep opportunities open for White Scars and Ultras and allow Raven Guard to have some time in the limelight.

As a Necron player I'm not too happy about the Imperial Fists doctrine, not that it's the most craziest OP option, it's just really good against Quantum Shielding because it obviously benefits 1 and 2 damage weapons more than 3 and D6 damage weapons which I doubt IF players will take anymore. I'd rather it just doubled damage because Monoliths are gak anyways, I rarely use Doom Scythes and there is no way that a Seraptek Heavy Construct is going to survive regardless of whether it's a bunch of heavy bolters with damage 2 or a bunch of lascannons with 2d6 damage.

*Edit, I thought it affected all weapons not just heavy weapons. I guess you wouldn't want more than one possible IF list, it not affecting regular bolters is good news for me at least.

 vict0988 wrote:

As a Necron player I'm not too happy about the Imperial Fists doctrine, not that it's the most craziest OP option, it's just really good against Quantum Shielding because it obviously benefits 1 and 2 damage weapons more than 3 and D6 damage weapons which I doubt IF players will take anymore. I'd rather it just doubled damage because Monoliths are gak anyways, I rarely use Doom Scythes and there is no way that a Seraptek Heavy Construct is going to survive regardless of whether it's a bunch of heavy bolters with damage 2 or a bunch of lascannons with 2d6 damage. It's also not terribly fluffy or makes any sense, since when did bolters or heavy bolters become the preferred anti-tank weapon of the Imperial Fists? Thunder hammers? Who needs them when you can have your 2D lightning claw with your storm shield, because that's the fluffiest IF melee weapon right? I know thunder hammers still deal twice as much damage, but 6 pt 2D power claw>40 pt 4D thunder hammer. At least it does affect melee weapons, something that I think is nice, will IF players bring melee other than Assault Cents and Aggressors though? I doubt it.

The doctrine damage bonus applies only to Heavy type weapons. It has zero effect on melee weapons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Knights are vehicles. LOL. Imperial fist army is just going to be full of HB and AC and they will obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease. Much like an army buffed by gman without spending 400 points on a buff champion.

A fully boosted BS2+ quad HB CMortis does a whopping...5 wounds to a knight. A stationary (because I'm feeling generous) Asscannon razorback does a staggering...4.

Yup, them vees are just melting away.

So it does about the same as 4 lascannons? You seem to be missing the point. You also aren't giving rerolls...because why would a marine player put their entire army in a reroll hits aura...

EDIT: lol nevermind I completely misread

Hahahaha I called it in the last Xeno thread his um would be blue fist before they ever got to be blue IH.

With all the knee jerking going on recently there must be a lot of people walking around like John Cleese

While we have not seen all there stuff yet fists don’t seem more than high mid tier just among the marines.

 Continuity wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Knights are vehicles. LOL. Imperial fist army is just going to be full of HB and AC and they will obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease. Much like an army buffed by gman without spending 400 points on a buff champion.

A fully boosted BS2+ quad HB CMortis does a whopping...5 wounds to a knight. A stationary (because I'm feeling generous) Asscannon razorback does a staggering...4.

Yup, them vees are just melting away.

So it does about the same as 4 lascannons? You seem to be missing the point. You also aren't giving rerolls...because why would a marine player put their entire army in a reroll hits aura...

You can't make an assertion that an IF army that spams HB and AC will "obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease" and then suddenly whip out 4 lascannon when the numbers prove you wrong

Sounds like some playground pretend-fight to me.

If you are going to be snide at least be right. Lascannons average about 1 damage to a vehicle with bs 3+.
Twin las 2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)x3.5 = 2.06
a Twin heavy bolter that does 2 damage to a vehicle does
6x(2/3)(1/3)(2/3)x2 = 1.78 (this doesn't even factor in 6's generating 2 hits which actually puts it a little over a LC) that turns it to 2.22 average damage.

Twin HB is 17 and a twin LC is 40....which is the more effective anti tank weapon? You don't have to answer - it's a rhetorical question.

Basically I am right and you are wrong. Imperial fists HB is more effective against tanks than a lascannon...So they don't even have to take lascannons - all they have to do is take anti infantry and they have a TAC list. It's just how I ran Ultramarines before they nerfed Gman...everyone said it was OP then. Now it's knee jerking though. Even though Imperial fists get this for free. FREE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Hahahaha I called it in the last Xeno thread his um would be blue fist before they ever got to be blue IH.

With all the knee jerking going on recently there must be a lot of people walking around like John Cleese

While we have not seen all there stuff yet fists don’t seem more than high mid tier just among the marines.

They aren't as good as Ironhands cause defense wins in the end almost always and ironhands have a lot of goof offensive buffs too. Imperial fists auto win vs any opponent with lots of armor though so...there is a real issue with that to if you are like...using vehicles. Unless your ironhands...

Kinda funny how everyone gets mad at Xeno for complaining about marine power levels being too low, and now when he does something principled and complains about the buffs for his own faction being ridiculous, people still call him a whiner..

I agree that all the new bonuses are quite silly. The game already plays like rocket tag with massive lethality to the point that most games are pretty much decided by turn 2 or 3. This doesn't help. I want to play a game where my models actually spend a little time on the table, being positioned and moving around, rather than just unpacking a physical manifestation of an efficient math formula and then removing most everything in short order.

Hell, some of my group has already been discussing just doubling the wounds for everything across the board to make the game less of a meat grinder. With this addition, we may end up doing that or perhaps moving towards 50PL apocalypse, which I've heard does 40k better than 40k does. I would normally hope that 9th edition would roll around and scale back all the damage, but with the new continuous update, chapter-approved style of things, I imagine we will just see more bloat and power creep until the game collapses and forces a refresh.

ManTube wrote:
Kinda funny how everyone gets mad at Xeno for complaining about marine power levels being too low, and now when he does something principled and complains about the buffs for his own faction being ridiculous, people still call him a whiner..

I agree that all the new bonuses are quite silly. The game already plays like rocket tag with massive lethality to the point that most games are pretty much decided by turn 2 or 3. This doesn't help. I want to play a game where my models actually spend a little time on the table, being positioned and moving around, rather than just unpacking a physical manifestation of an efficient math formula and then removing most everything in short order.

Hell, some of my group has already been discussing just doubling the wounds for everything across the board to make the game less of a meat grinder. With this addition, we may end up doing that or perhaps moving towards 50PL apocalypse, which I've heard does 40k better than 40k does. I would normally hope that 9th edition would roll around and scale back all the damage, but with the new continuous update, chapter-approved style of things, I imagine we will just see more bloat and power creep until the game collapses and forces a refresh.

It's not the direction of his opinion that sparks umbrage. It's the extremism and ... questionable... claims.

If someone says "I'm so hungry I'll starve to death today, if I don't get food", then eats a hot dog, then says "I'm so stuffed, I need to lie down", they're not principled. They're either hyperbolic or clueless. Probably both.

Bharring wrote:

ManTube wrote:
Kinda funny how everyone gets mad at Xeno for complaining about marine power levels being too low, and now when he does something principled and complains about the buffs for his own faction being ridiculous, people still call him a whiner..

I agree that all the new bonuses are quite silly. The game already plays like rocket tag with massive lethality to the point that most games are pretty much decided by turn 2 or 3. This doesn't help. I want to play a game where my models actually spend a little time on the table, being positioned and moving around, rather than just unpacking a physical manifestation of an efficient math formula and then removing most everything in short order.

Hell, some of my group has already been discussing just doubling the wounds for everything across the board to make the game less of a meat grinder. With this addition, we may end up doing that or perhaps moving towards 50PL apocalypse, which I've heard does 40k better than 40k does. I would normally hope that 9th edition would roll around and scale back all the damage, but with the new continuous update, chapter-approved style of things, I imagine we will just see more bloat and power creep until the game collapses and forces a refresh.

It's not the direction of his opinion that sparks umbrage. It's the extremism and ... questionable... claims.

If someone says "I'm so hungry I'll starve to death today, if I don't get food", then eats a hot dog, then says "I'm so stuffed, I need to lie down", they're not principled. They're either hyperbolic or clueless. Probably both.

^^^

*scurries back to do more data entry*

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Honestly at this point, if i end up playing against iron hands, i probably will just concede the game to them.

Well I did beat them... Admittedly the guy near wiped me out, but in the process forgot about the objectives so I won on VPs.

But yes if I wanted an anti-tank squadron in my army I would be tempted to make it an IF one.

except you can't ake an IF anti-tank squadron. to get this rule you have to 100% commit to Imperial fists. and apparently a number of their stratagiums are not that great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amai wrote:
So maybe its not that broken after all. Seems still way stronger than Ultra marines even they should be the ultimate marines which is stupid.

Ulrtramarines are noted for being tactically flexable.. jacks of all trades and it's shown in this. If you don't know what you want to take, it's ahrd to go wrong with ultramarines. meanwhile every other chapter tends to shoe horn you into a partiuclar style.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did GW really just give Imperial fists +1 damage to all heavy weapons while in dev doctrine? LOL. Like...seriously? Is anyone going to play this game anymore?

Against vehicles and buildings only.

And it doesn't stack with their Chapter Tactic's weapon buff in most cases. Heavy Bolters are the ones that get the most out of the combined tactic and doctrine.

Generally it looks like the idea is to let Imperial Fists peel the armour off of units in transports turn one before laying down a lot of bolter shots on turn two. Hardly a game breaker (keep your tanks out of LoS on turn 1 and you already go a long way to negating this buff), and staying in the heavy doctrine means not using the tactical doctrine (which they want to use to buff Aggressors if running Dorn's Moving Castle, or just to make Auto Bolt Rifles good).

Threat saturation (two is one, three is two) goes a long way as well as it means the Fists literally can't kill everything fast enough to take advantage of their other doctrines effectively.

Personally, I think the whole of the 40k forum are unwilling participants in some sort of meta bending piece of performance art. There can be no other explanation.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Basically I am right and you are wrong.

Slow clap for the quality of your argument and depth of insight.

I had a several year break from war gaming forums and really enjoyed my hobby - dipping back in the last few months has been an entirely negative experience and threads like this are just a shining example of the pure evil of the internet. Raging about a book not yet released, with no game time at all and getting literally the first thing being raged about completely wrong. I mean, we are literally drowning in irony.

At first I thought Wow, that's a really weak "super doctrine". What if you face tyranids, or infantry spam ? Then I realized: it's a good doctrine because you don't need AT guns, juts take loads of anti infantry guns and the super doctrine will make them good against vehicles if there are any !
Did we get any new information / confirmation about this super doctrine ?

-Guardsman- wrote:
Some of you are not acting like the people Mr. Rogers knew you could be.

What ?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Continuity wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


Knights are vehicles. LOL. Imperial fist army is just going to be full of HB and AC and they will obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease. Much like an army buffed by gman without spending 400 points on a buff champion.

A fully boosted BS2+ quad HB CMortis does a whopping...5 wounds to a knight. A stationary (because I'm feeling generous) Asscannon razorback does a staggering...4.

Yup, them vees are just melting away.

So it does about the same as 4 lascannons? You seem to be missing the point. You also aren't giving rerolls...because why would a marine player put their entire army in a reroll hits aura...

You can't make an assertion that an IF army that spams HB and AC will "obliterate both vehicals and infantry with ease" and then suddenly whip out 4 lascannon when the numbers prove you wrong

Sounds like some playground pretend-fight to me.

If you are going to be snide at least be right. Lascannons average about 1 damage to a vehicle with bs 3+.
Twin las 2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3)x3.5 = 2.06
a Twin heavy bolter that does 2 damage to a vehicle does
6x(2/3)(1/3)(2/3)x2 = 1.78 (this doesn't even factor in 6's generating 2 hits which actually puts it a little over a LC) that turns it to 2.22 average damage.

Twin HB is 17 and a twin LC is 40....which is the more effective anti tank weapon? You don't have to answer - it's a rhetorical question.

Basically I am right and you are wrong. Imperial fists HB is more effective against tanks than a lascannon...So they don't even have to take lascannons - all they have to do is take anti infantry and they have a TAC list. It's just how I ran Ultramarines before they nerfed Gman...everyone said it was OP then. Now it's knee jerking though. Even though Imperial fists get this for free. FREE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Hahahaha I called it in the last Xeno thread his um would be blue fist before they ever got to be blue IH.

With all the knee jerking going on recently there must be a lot of people walking around like John Cleese

While we have not seen all there stuff yet fists don’t seem more than high mid tier just among the marines.

They aren't as good as Ironhands cause defense wins in the end almost always and ironhands have a lot of goof offensive buffs too. Imperial fists auto win vs any opponent with lots of armor though so...there is a real issue with that to if you are like...using vehicles. Unless your ironhands...

Xeno, I'm running YOUR MATH, and getting different answers.

2*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3)*3.5=2.07, not 2.06.

Your Heavy Bolter math seems right, though how are you getting the same save from AP-2 and AP-4? What target are you shooting? And 6s generating an extra hit is, statistically, the same as hitting one point better. so that math at least seems accurate too.

But, even without the Ironstone, shooting at a Redemptor, Rhino, or Repulsor, you get...

2 Lascannon shots
4/3 hits
8/9 wounds
8/9 failed saves
28/9 damage, or just over 3.

6 HBolter shots
5 hits
5/3 wounds
10/9 failed saves
20/9 damage, or almost 2 and a quarter.

If you're up against something with Invulns, like, say, an Iron Hands parking lot with the Iron Father... Well, then they probably have the Ironstone too, meaning the Lascannon damage drops by about a quarter off the Ironstone and not quite half in total (from the 5++ and the Ironstone), but the HBolter drops completely in half.

And if we add in Prepared Positions, the HBolter drops from saving on 5s to on 4s, for another reduction of 25%, while the Lascannon still forces invulns, or 6+s if they don't have one.

Everything was fine when the meta was all about Guilliman, and when it was all about Shadowswords, and when it was all about Pox walkers, and when it was all about Ynnari, and when it was all about tzaangor bombs, and both times it was all about eldar fliers, and when it was all about castellans...but now that it might be all about multiple different space marines chapters, everyone loses their minds.

Having space marines in general become useful is worth having the top meta spot switch to Iron Hands (and maybe Imperial fists) for a bit. I doubt it'll stay there long. Is the meta even worth discussing much until Psychic Awakening is all out? We're in the middle of basically a new edition of army rules. That armies who have gotten updated are more powerful than those who haven't isn't worth all this fuss.