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 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Simply cries in R&H.

I actually managed to win against ih with mine.
Otoh i fielded 250 geq

My csm on the otherhand just get outdone by numarines.
And that even though we are supposedly a v2.0 dex allready.

Makes you wonder.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Simply cries in R&H.

I actually managed to win against ih with mine.
Otoh i fielded 250 geq

My csm on the otherhand just get outdone by numarines.
And that even though we are supposedly a v2.0 dex allready.

Makes you wonder.

Csm 2.0 was a bad joke. Hoping pa 2 is the real 2.0. Probably not if the leeks are true.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Simply cries in R&H.

I actually managed to win against ih with mine.
Otoh i fielded 250 geq

My csm on the otherhand just get outdone by numarines.
And that even though we are supposedly a v2.0 dex allready.

Makes you wonder.

Csm 2.0 was a bad joke. Hoping pa 2 is the real 2.0. Probably not if the leeks are true.

Isn't something new for csm to be updated but still Stuck in another edition.

Altough i still find it disgusting that a bunch of marines is capable to nearly fry my meatgrinder clogger ups.
I was done to militia at the end of the battle, my muties were dead!

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Simply cries in R&H.

I actually managed to win against ih with mine.
Otoh i fielded 250 geq

My csm on the otherhand just get outdone by numarines.
And that even though we are supposedly a v2.0 dex allready.

Makes you wonder.

Csm 2.0 was a bad joke. Hoping pa 2 is the real 2.0. Probably not if the leeks are true.

Isn't something new for csm to be updated but still Stuck in another edition.

Altough i still find it disgusting that a bunch of marines is capable to nearly fry my meatgrinder clogger ups.
I was done to militia at the end of the battle, my muties were dead!

Yes but you still beat them. With an army without a codex or even strategems. So they aren't invincible. Just not fun to play against.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Simply cries in R&H.

I actually managed to win against ih with mine.
Otoh i fielded 250 geq

My csm on the otherhand just get outdone by numarines.
And that even though we are supposedly a v2.0 dex allready.

Makes you wonder.

Csm 2.0 was a bad joke. Hoping pa 2 is the real 2.0. Probably not if the leeks are true.

Isn't something new for csm to be updated but still Stuck in another edition.

Altough i still find it disgusting that a bunch of marines is capable to nearly fry my meatgrinder clogger ups.
I was done to militia at the end of the battle, my muties were dead!

Yes but you still beat them. With an army without a codex or even strategems. So they aren't invincible. Just not fun to play against.

Yay, great me, i just brought the ultimate anti skew list and won hurray, i played the same list before with my csm, guess what the result was there.
And if the only way to beat them is vomitting 2 companies worth of militia and mutants and their respective morale buffers and imunizers on the table and rolling hot on critical rolls then yes, most armies stand infront of a problem they themselves can't solve.

Also unbeatable is not the standard for broken imo.
A too high winrate allready is.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Simply cries in R&H.

I actually managed to win against ih with mine.
Otoh i fielded 250 geq

My csm on the otherhand just get outdone by numarines.
And that even though we are supposedly a v2.0 dex allready.

Makes you wonder.

Csm 2.0 was a bad joke. Hoping pa 2 is the real 2.0. Probably not if the leeks are true.

Isn't something new for csm to be updated but still Stuck in another edition.

Altough i still find it disgusting that a bunch of marines is capable to nearly fry my meatgrinder clogger ups.
I was done to militia at the end of the battle, my muties were dead!

Yes but you still beat them. With an army without a codex or even strategems. So they aren't invincible. Just not fun to play against.

Yay, great me, i just brought the ultimate anti skew list and won hurray, i played the same list before with my csm, guess what the result was there.
And if the only way to beat them is vomitting 2 companies worth of militia and mutants and their respective morale buffers and imunizers on the table and rolling hot on critical rolls then yes, most armies stand infront of a problem they themselves can't solve.

Also unbeatable is not the standard for broken imo.
A too high winrate allready is.

Didn't say they weren't broken. They definitely need nerfs. Lots of nerfs. If they aren't fun to play against and you need to list tailor for them they're broken.

Who else thinks that in 12 months time when several new codexes are released marines will just be another mild mid tier footnote at the local tourney scene?

Enjoy the power creep now is all I can say, because it never lasts for marines

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Who else thinks that in 12 months time when several new codexes are released marines will just be another mild mid tier footnote at the local tourney scene?

Enjoy the power creep now is all I can say, because it never lasts for marines

I'd bet money on it TBH. we're already seeing eldar getting their own create a chapter and new psykic powers. eneugh that I can tell you exactly what'll happen. Space Marines came out with some new abilities, GW thinks these are a good idea and introduces them to everyone else, however as time goes by the space Marine stuff, which had been fairly restrained, is over shadowed as GW abandons restraint for some new factions and produces disgustedly broken ones.

BrianDavion wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Who else thinks that in 12 months time when several new codexes are released marines will just be another mild mid tier footnote at the local tourney scene?

Enjoy the power creep now is all I can say, because it never lasts for marines

I'd bet money on it TBH. we're already seeing eldar getting their own create a chapter and new psykic powers. eneugh that I can tell you exactly what'll happen. Space Marines came out with some new abilities, GW thinks these are a good idea and introduces them to everyone else, however as time goes by the space Marine stuff, which had been fairly restrained, is over shadowed as GW abandons restraint for some new factions and produces disgustedly broken ones.

Sm stuff allready got bonkers though, in regards to restraint.

Basically we are back at power-creep town

BrianDavion wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Who else thinks that in 12 months time when several new codexes are released marines will just be another mild mid tier footnote at the local tourney scene?

Enjoy the power creep now is all I can say, because it never lasts for marines

I'd bet money on it TBH. we're already seeing eldar getting their own create a chapter and new psykic powers. eneugh that I can tell you exactly what'll happen. Space Marines came out with some new abilities, GW thinks these are a good idea and introduces them to everyone else, however as time goes by the space Marine stuff, which had been fairly restrained, is over shadowed as GW abandons restraint for some new factions and produces disgustedly broken ones.

We’re seeing nothing of the sort. Nothing in Phoenix Rising comes even remotely close to the stack of rules and buffs that SM enjoy from their supplements. There is no comparison. They also haven’t been restrained with the Marines at all. They are laughably imbalanced.

You’re living in cloud cookoo land if you think this same treatment will roll out for anyone but the remaining marine factions and if Phoenix rising is anything to go by it won’t happen during PA.

If the eldar book is anything to go by these psychic awakening books won't be massive buffs.
The eldar book is actually fun and interesting which does buff some underperforming units but it's nothing on the scale of the marine books.

kingheff wrote:
If the eldar book is anything to go by these psychic awakening books won't be massive buffs.
The eldar book is actually fun and interesting which does buff some underperforming units but it's nothing on the scale of the marine books.

I'm beginning to wonder just how much the writers of these books actually communicate with each other. Do the rules team have a coordinated plan? Or do they just turn different groups of writers loose on each book, let them work in a vacuum, without communicating with the other teams working on other books, and just see what happens? And then just throw it out there without play testing any of it.

The Newman wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Everything was fine when the meta was all about Guilliman, and when it was all about Shadowswords, and when it was all about Pox walkers, and when it was all about Ynnari, and when it was all about tzaangor bombs, and both times it was all about eldar fliers, and when it was all about castellans...but now that it might be all about multiple different space marines chapters, everyone loses their minds.

Having space marines in general become useful is worth having the top meta spot switch to Iron Hands (and maybe Imperial fists) for a bit. I doubt it'll stay there long. Is the meta even worth discussing much until Psychic Awakening is all out? We're in the middle of basically a new edition of army rules. That armies who have gotten updated are more powerful than those who haven't isn't worth all this fuss.

This might be the most level-headed thing anyone has had to say about anything in the Marine 2.0 codex and expansions. Being in any way surprised that the latest codex is also the strongest * is like being surprised that water is wet. GW has always had issues with that, it's why 40k has a lethality issue in general.

Honestly while I do feel like Marines have gotten stronger, I also think they have pretty much the same weaknesses they had to begin with. All those new rules and buffs are being layered on top of what was and still is the weakest profile in the game for the points.

* - I'm not saying that I think Codex 2.0 Marines are the top of the heap now. IG still curb-stomps them, but I've come around to the belief that has more to do with the rock-paper-scissors nature of the 40k rules than it does with their relative power levels.

Curb stomps enough that first GT after IH codex came out had 8 IH in top-8.

Yep yep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Who else thinks that in 12 months time when several new codexes are released marines will just be another mild mid tier footnote at the local tourney scene?

Enjoy the power creep now is all I can say, because it never lasts for marines

I'd bet money on it TBH. we're already seeing eldar getting their own create a chapter and new psykic powers. eneugh that I can tell you exactly what'll happen. Space Marines came out with some new abilities, GW thinks these are a good idea and introduces them to everyone else, however as time goes by the space Marine stuff, which had been fairly restrained, is over shadowed as GW abandons restraint for some new factions and produces disgustedly broken ones.

Nice way of skipping that the eldar ones aren't nearly as big or extensive as what marines got.

To be fair, CWE were already quite good (maybe too good) in external balance, what they lacked was internal balance.
PA gave them a better internal balance without touching the external one mostly.

Marines lacked external balance, so they were given an all around buff. As many times happens though, when you touch external balance, you fumble the internal one.

kingheff wrote:
If the eldar book is anything to go by these psychic awakening books won't be massive buffs.
The eldar book is actually fun and interesting which does buff some underperforming units but it's nothing on the scale of the marine books.

I didn't know crimson hunter exarcs were an under performing unit, given they do tend to see play in flyer spam lists.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Who else thinks that in 12 months time when several new codexes are released marines will just be another mild mid tier footnote at the local tourney scene?

Enjoy the power creep now is all I can say, because it never lasts for marines

I'd bet money on it TBH. we're already seeing eldar getting their own create a chapter and new psykic powers. eneugh that I can tell you exactly what'll happen. Space Marines came out with some new abilities, GW thinks these are a good idea and introduces them to everyone else, however as time goes by the space Marine stuff, which had been fairly restrained, is over shadowed as GW abandons restraint for some new factions and produces disgustedly broken ones.

We’re seeing nothing of the sort. Nothing in Phoenix Rising comes even remotely close to the stack of rules and buffs that SM enjoy from their supplements. There is no comparison. They also haven’t been restrained with the Marines at all. They are laughably imbalanced.

You’re living in cloud cookoo land if you think this same treatment will roll out for anyone but the remaining marine factions and if Phoenix rising is anything to go by it won’t happen during PA.

I'm not living in cookoo land, I'm just cynical. the inital codices after marines where pretty on par with Marines power level wise, but that didn't stop GW from ramping up the creep. Just you wait. in a few months the new necron (or whatever) rules will make iron hands look mild.

So far the common theme of battle reports I have seen fall mostly into the category that most games IH won were ITC house rule games, most games IH lost were 40k games.

So basicly if you play the minatures equivalent of fortnight then IH are likely at an advantage if you play the actual game properly then IH are not much of a challange.

So as normal the issue is less the codex and more the house rules that people use. I don't believe anything should be changed just yet and I also don't think GW should be "balancing" there game based on a 3rd parties implementation of it. GW lack the competence to do balance when they wrote the rules never mind someone else.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Did GW really just give Imperial fists +1 damage to all heavy weapons while in dev doctrine? LOL. Like...seriously? Is anyone going to play this game anymore?

This is the beginning of 8th Edition Wave 2 - in which they give seriously good rewards for playing pure faction and subfaction armies. Which to be fair a lot of players were asking for. They are not nerfing soup armies, they are rewarding pure armies and the purer they are the bigger the reward.

Now maybe as a Crimson Fists player I am not unbiased but this is limited to working against vehicles and buildings. I see vehicles across the table from me in about half my games and buildings almost never, so it is really powerful about half the time.

While other factions wait for their purity rewards those factions upgraded to Wave 2 are going to have an advantage, this is going to be especially the case for factions that do not soup well. It is a shift in game design that needs to be worked through the whole game over time, we are only in about the 2nd month of this so there is a long way to go. I know there is a lot of salt from Eldar players about their new stuff but honestly when they work through what the new Exarch abilities do they will see a significant uptick in their capability on the table. I expect similar stop-gaps for other factions as they roll out the new Psychic Awakening stuff and then a much slower roll out of codex upgrades.

I'm beginning to wonder at what point this hyperbolic blubbering nonsense will fail to impart the proper panic and folks will turn to ALL CAPS to truly freak the feth out.

Relax. Keep calm. Everything is going to be okay.

This is a bonus that applies to but one weapon type, few of which synergize with the Chapter Tactic, and where half the targets it is valid for do not exist in any real or perceived sense. If your list relies on vehicles to win a game, then you've just found your biggest weakness. An army that can do that to you is something you need to prepare for, whether it's yellow marines or not.

Edit: I accidentally a word

kingheff wrote:
If the eldar book is anything to go by these psychic awakening books won't be massive buffs.
The eldar book is actually fun and interesting which does buff some underperforming units but it's nothing on the scale of the marine books.

They also buff adequately performing units and the most over-performing unit in the Eldar codex - the Crimson Hunter Exarch.

It is still just a stopgap update in my opinion but if it had happened outside the context of the new SM codex and supplements it would have been widely declared the most broken thing in 40K - because it would have been a significant and free buff to an already top tier unit.

Lemondish wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder at what point this hyperbolic blubbering nonsense will fail to impart the proper panic and folks will turn to ALL CAPS to truly freak the feth out.

Relax. Keep calm. Everything is going to be okay.

This is a bonus that applies to but one weapon type, few of which synergize with the Chapter Tactic, and where half the targets it is valid for do not exist in any real or perceived sense. If your list relies on vehicles to win a game, then you've just found your biggest weakness. An army that can do that to you is something you need to prepare for, whether it's yellow marines or not.

Edit: I accidentally a word

BUT A WARHAMMER 40K ARMY MIGHT BE OVER POWERED! WHATEVER SHALL WE DO!? THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!

You are assuming that the crimson hunter exarch isn't going to see a price increase in CA, which i give almost for granted. At least make it a choice between crimson hunter and crimson hunter exarch.

Spoletta wrote:
You are assuming that the crimson hunter exarch isn't going to see a price increase in CA, which i give almost for granted. At least make it a choice between crimson hunter and crimson hunter exarch.

I hope it does get a well deserved points increase - but my point stands that there would be a lot of people posting in ALL CAPS about those new options if we were not all raging about nuMarines instead.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
You are assuming that the crimson hunter exarch isn't going to see a price increase in CA, which i give almost for granted. At least make it a choice between crimson hunter and crimson hunter exarch.

I hope it does get a well deserved points increase - but my point stands that there would be a lot of people posting in ALL CAPS about those new options if we were not all raging about nuMarines instead.

Which is the problem, no?

Pre-Nu-Marines, CHE deserved a hefty price increase.

Post-Nu-Marines, they would probably have to drop some 30-50 points and get another free -1 to hit to even be remotely viable in Iron Hands country, but likely wont because of the meta-lag in printing CA.

The benchmark simply has shifted. Tau, GSC, Orks, etc.. used to be competitive 2 weeks ago. Now they are trash.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
You are assuming that the crimson hunter exarch isn't going to see a price increase in CA, which i give almost for granted. At least make it a choice between crimson hunter and crimson hunter exarch.

I hope it does get a well deserved points increase - but my point stands that there would be a lot of people posting in ALL CAPS about those new options if we were not all raging about nuMarines instead.

Which is the problem, no?

Pre-Nu-Marines, CHE deserved a hefty price increase.

Post-Nu-Marines, they would probably have to drop some 30-50 points and get another free -1 to hit to even be remotely viable in Iron Hands country, but likely wont because of the meta-lag in printing CA.

The benchmark simply has shifted. Tau, GSC, Orks, etc.. used to be competitive 2 weeks ago. Now they are trash.

Ah, the notorious Dakkadakka Dichotomy®. If it hasn't won the last tournament, it's "trash". If it has, it's "broken".

Apparently there's no middleground. All solutions must be drastic.

"Reduce the points by 1/3!"
"Make them -3 to hit!"

Ridiculous.

It's the GW that has drastic no middle ground. Just look at how marines went from bad to way above any others. Marines are essentially playing different game to others. Where others explore earth marines are exploring different galaxies. That's GW for you. Players really should just take control of rules and say screw it to GW.

/shrug

People wanna hide in denial?

I don't care. I got my Marines to play with in the coming months.

You wanna run your CHE against them. Good luck and godspeed. Let me know how you do, lol.

Sunny Side Up wrote:


Which is the problem, no?

Pre-Nu-Marines, CHE deserved a hefty price increase.

Post-Nu-Marines, they would probably have to drop some 30-50 points and get another free -1 to hit to even be remotely viable in Iron Hands country, but likely wont because of the meta-lag in printing CA.

The benchmark simply has shifted. Tau, GSC, Orks, etc.. used to be competitive 2 weeks ago. Now they are trash.

No.

OK so Iron Hands were 4/10 top lists at a GT last weekend. Orks were 2/10 so are they half-way as broken as IH or are they trash? Various flavours of Aeldari were 3/10 - are they 75% as broken as IH?

Or is this all just a bit hyperbolic?

Yes the nuMarines are super-strong. Yes if they carry on being half of the top tables of tournaments then they will need some tweaks along the way to maintain a good healthy game. No everything else did not suddenly get trash tier, that is just he usual Dakka binary thinking on display.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Simply cries in R&H.

I actually managed to win against ih with mine.
Otoh i fielded 250 geq

My csm on the otherhand just get outdone by numarines.
And that even though we are supposedly a v2.0 dex allready.

Makes you wonder.

Csm 2.0 was a bad joke. Hoping pa 2 is the real 2.0. Probably not if the leeks are true.

Don't worry, in a year or so they'll chrage you for another "fix".

happy_inquisitor wrote:

kingheff wrote:
If the eldar book is anything to go by these psychic awakening books won't be massive buffs.
The eldar book is actually fun and interesting which does buff some underperforming units but it's nothing on the scale of the marine books.

They also buff adequately performing units and the most over-performing unit in the Eldar codex - the Crimson Hunter Exarch.

It is still just a stopgap update in my opinion but if it had happened outside the context of the new SM codex and supplements it would have been widely declared the most broken thing in 40K - because it would have been a significant and free buff to an already top tier unit.

True, che got a buff but that's the only real meta unit that did and chapter masters make the alaitoc flyer lists less viable in return. But little else will see much play in competitive. As others have pointed out, che will almost certainly receive a points increase in chapter approved.
I don't play competitive games so I'm happy with the buffs aspects received, I use them already so I'm glad they're better even if few will be competitive despite the buffs.