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 greyknight12 wrote:
I think the point of “stop complaining about how OP Iron Hands are” is to keep the good suggestions from getting drowned out. We all know IH are potentially the most broken thing yet in 8th. We all know what their list does, and how play testing either failed or was non-existent. We get it.

The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm and try and come up with general solutions to beat the army because we’re probably going to have to play them at some point. It may be a doomed quest, but we’re going to try regardless. So stay on topic.

They are far easier to face than most of the stuff we had to cope with in this edition.

Yes they are though, but in terms of firepower they lag a lot behind old IG/BA/IK lists with unlimited CPs, and are quite short ranged and stopped in melee.

Yes they are a problem. No they hardly are "Potentially the most broken thing yet in 8th".

So in this spirit for a third time: any opinion in driving a suicide bomb (Cyclops, Hellhound, maybe even Malcador Infernus) into the buff bubble? The cyclops does not choose units to attack, thus I think it messes with some stratagems and abilities that trigger "when a unit is attacked" etc. (But I might be wrong). And a 60 points unit doing D3 MW in D6'' upon dying could be interesting against an enemy that clusters much more expensive models together.

Pyroalchi wrote:
So in this spirit for a third time: any opinion in driving a suicide bomb (Cyclops, Hellhound, maybe even Malcador Infernus) into the buff bubble? The cyclops does not choose units to attack, thus I think it messes with some stratagems and abilities that trigger "when a unit is attacked" etc. (But I might be wrong). And a 60 points unit doing D3 MW in D6'' upon dying could be interesting against an enemy that clusters much more expensive models together.

Inflicting scattered damage in the bubble will not really have that much effect, they have the iron father and second techmarine.

If you don't luck out and kill some HQs with the blasts then the damage will be repaired easily.

Pyroalchi wrote:
So in this spirit for a third time: any opinion in driving a suicide bomb (Cyclops, Hellhound, maybe even Malcador Infernus) into the buff bubble? The cyclops does not choose units to attack, thus I think it messes with some stratagems and abilities that trigger "when a unit is attacked" etc. (But I might be wrong). And a 60 points unit doing D3 MW in D6'' upon dying could be interesting against an enemy that clusters much more expensive models together.

My answer is "this probably isn't very efficient".

If you go first, and they don't move/screen at all, maybe you can get into D6" range by turn 2 - but its pretty obvious, and since they can move without consequence (beyond terrain) there is no real reason they should allow it to happen.

But they still get one round of shooting - probably two. Cyclopses especially are not very tough, and are likely to shower your own stuff in mortal wounds.

On the other hand they are really tiny and easy to hide. I'm not familiar with Iron Hands. Do they have good firepower out of line of sight?

On a different note: I'm aware that it sounds dumb and expensive, but whenever I read about an army having a very powerful combo relying on a thight buff bubble, I feel tempted to try the following:
1. Take a Valdor Tank hunter (for that nice 2D6'' D6 MW on 2+ explosion) Malcador Infernus (also 2D6'' D6 MW or 3 Artemia Pattern Hellhounds (6'' D6 MW) as Tallarn
2. put them in a Tallar ambush
3. drop out of 9'' turn 2
4. charge in (with command reroll), fingers crossed and hopefully reach CC (however badly damaged, it doesn't really matter)
5. get killed and explode violently

On the plus side my uneducated guess would be, that even iron hands would have problems killing a Malcador or even Hellhound using overwatch.
But I guess it is just to much of an investment pointswise and also very dependent on making that 9+'' charge. Anyway, an idea at least.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I think the point of “stop complaining about how OP Iron Hands are” is to keep the good suggestions from getting drowned out. We all know IH are potentially the most broken thing yet in 8th. We all know what their list does, and how play testing either failed or was non-existent. We get it.

The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm and try and come up with general solutions to beat the army because we’re probably going to have to play them at some point. It may be a doomed quest, but we’re going to try regardless. So stay on topic.

Strong disagree here. Iron Hands are powerful, but other armies have the tools to at least deal with them. This is nowhere near the clustertruck that early-edition Guard was, where they had some obscenely broken rules *and* nobody else had the capability to respond to it because their own good rules hadn't been printed yet.
If you said Iron Hands were in the top 5 for most OP, I'd possibly agree, (though I think we need to wait and see, my own experience has been that the massive durability buffs we can put out don't necessarily translate to easy wins,) but "the most broken thing yet" is way too far.

(Incidentally, my own 2c on Iron Hands: Their power comes from being easy to play. Activating their most potent abilities requires very little in the way of on-board strategy, so a mediocre Iron Hands player will have an easy time winning against a mediocre player of another faction. It's got an incredibly low skill floor. The skill ceiling, though, is also a little lower than some other factions - Maneuvering and tactics with a parking lot can only get you so far - so top players can still compete.)

Wow, so now we’re getting derailed with apologists instead. Sorry for trying.

/shrug

We also always had Castellan apologists. Caladius apologist. Ynnari apologists. Etc.. There'll always be people who seem incapable of seeing the obvious.



Are Iron Hands beatable? Yes.

But that doesn't mean they are not too good compared to most other armies (and even compared to "only" tournament armies, which is only comparing it to the most powerful 0.1% or so of mathematically possible 40K lists to begin with) and beating them is usually uphill fight on a pure numbers-basis, which it shouldn't be in a (reasonably) balanced game.



Is it doom-and-gloom and the end of 40K as we know it? No.

But it would be nice if GW fixes them quickly and it doesn't take over a year or more as it did with the Castellan or Ynnari.



Does it mean we don't wanna see Marines be competitive? No.

But competitive on an even footing with everyone else, not overshadowing other armies.

On topic, the repulsor list costs roughly 1200 pts for the 2 HQs (including feirros) and 3 executioners. So if you can stay outside of range (36 except for the laser cannons) you can dance around the Death Star.

As far as attacking the thing itself, a couple ideas come to mind.
Massive sniper fire on the characters, mainly the one with the ironstone. Getting rid of the half damage will allow your anti-tank damage to actually get through.
Mortal wounds are good, either through shooting (Cawl bots, Necrons), psychic attacks (Chaos), or others (exploding vehicles).
Melee with something that can suck up the overwatch and deal enough damage to the repulsors to kill them through the -1 damage. Knights are pretty much the best option to do this with fists and chainswords.

Note though, there isn't a single Repulsor in those 6 or so Iron Hands lists that are in the BFS Top 10.

It'll all about Stormtalons, Stormhawks, sprinkled with maybe 1-2 Character-Mortis Dreads, etc.. Nick Rose has 3 Landspeeders, Incursors and 3 Invictor Suits. Jack Harpster has Iron Hand Assault Centurions and some IH Smash Captains.

They all take up lots of board-space and maximize the ability of Iron Hand units to be out alone, unsupported. And all have combat units, rather than just shooty castles.

At the moment, two much needed and dare I say it, sensible nerfs to begin with on the Iron Hands subject I can see are:

Iron Father Ferrios = increase to 150-160pts

Ironstone Relic = Can only effect a single vehicle within 6" per turn.

Dreadnought Character Stratagem = One model per army only.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Note though, there isn't a single Repulsor in those 6 or so Iron Hands lists that are in the BFS Top 10.

It'll all about Stormtalons, Stormhawks, sprinkled with maybe 1-2 Character-Mortis Dreads, etc.. Nick Rose has 3 Landspeeders, Incursors and 3 Invictor Suits. Jack Harpster has Iron Hand Assault Centurions and some IH Smash Captains.

They all take up lots of board-space and maximize the ability of Iron Hand units to be out alone, unsupported. And all have combat units, rather than just shooty castles.

This is because so much of the SM codex is strong that they are one of the few factions that is able to take a variety of units in a competitive list and still perform. Not only are the SM supplements at a higher level competitively than all others right now, but they are also incredibly well balanced internally.

Why am I raising this here? Because it comes incredibly hard to tailor against a specific faction when the faction has so many competitive options open to it. I think Stormtalons and Stormhawks are going to be very common, mind.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Wow, so now we’re getting derailed with apologists instead. Sorry for trying.

So place 1-4 go to ih.

Question is, was the competition just bad or this a taste of the things to come?

Sunny Side Up 781287 10597728 wrote:Note though, there isn't a single Repulsor in those 6 or so Iron Hands lists that are in the BFS Top 10.

It'll all about Stormtalons, Stormhawks, sprinkled with maybe 1-2 Character-Mortis Dreads, etc.. Nick Rose has 3 Landspeeders, Incursors and 3 Invictor Suits. Jack Harpster has Iron Hand Assault Centurions and some IH Smash Captains.

They all take up lots of board-space and maximize the ability of Iron Hand units to be out alone, unsupported. And all have combat units, rather than just shooty castles.

Do iron hand centurions get some option to deploy close to enemy like the RG ones, or were they use to defend home base, I wonder. All those flyers without -1 to hit from turn one, and with +++6 and possible repairs sound nice too. Flyers in general break a lot of basic 8th ed rules.

Who knows, maybe the repulsors and leviathans are just going to be non tournament armies bane, same way mono knights were.

For me the first thing to do to beat the iron hands is to kill the character with the iron stone.
I played with the army some times i think it's a good first step.
Take ways to kill characters.

Ps: On the other side i am happy than the eldar flyer list has a counter :p

Not Online!!! wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Wow, so now we’re getting derailed with apologists instead. Sorry for trying.

So place 1-4 go to ih.

Question is, was the competition just bad or this a taste of the things to come?

its going to get worse before things get better as IH lists are refined and people paint up the models they are missing.

 Ordana wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Wow, so now we’re getting derailed with apologists instead. Sorry for trying.

So place 1-4 go to ih.

Question is, was the competition just bad or this a taste of the things to come?

its going to get worse before things get better as IH lists are refined and people paint up the models they are missing.

Yeah altough i am happy that these lists aren't deathblob of doom it still feels ashen.
To the point where index brimstone + malefic seems humane contrary.
Also top4 only one faction is highly questionable and rings quite a few bells.
Then again i am not surprised if the inferior deathblob could eat my whole infantry just dedicated to clogg up the meatgrinder alone...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Note though, there isn't a single Repulsor in those 6 or so Iron Hands lists that are in the BFS Top 10.

It'll all about Stormtalons, Stormhawks, sprinkled with maybe 1-2 Character-Mortis Dreads, etc.. Nick Rose has 3 Landspeeders, Incursors and 3 Invictor Suits. Jack Harpster has Iron Hand Assault Centurions and some IH Smash Captains.

They all take up lots of board-space and maximize the ability of Iron Hand units to be out alone, unsupported. And all have combat units, rather than just shooty castles.

This is because so much of the SM codex is strong that they are one of the few factions that is able to take a variety of units in a competitive list and still perform. Not only are the SM supplements at a higher level competitively than all others right now, but they are also incredibly well balanced internally.

Why am I raising this here? Because it comes incredibly hard to tailor against a specific faction when the faction has so many competitive options open to it. I think Stormtalons and Stormhawks are going to be very common, mind.

in the same vein mind you, this is also something you WANT, ignroing iron hands for a moment (when everyone else gets 2 chapter traits and they get 3, there is no denying they're unbalanced) the space marine codex is a great codex. Whereas with Codex Adeptus Adepts I might be locked into 1 or 2 decent builds, Marines have a huge number of options that are solid. everyone focuses on Iron Hands, but IMHO Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are both really good too. (and IMHO make the the "top marines trinity" right now) And Raven Guard and Scars have their uses.

Generally it seems most of the chapters are designed with a specific build in mind. Iron Hands are intended as the "tank chapter" Imperial Fists are the "devestator marine" chapter. White scars the "RUN INTO CLOSE COMBAT AND BASH HEADS" chapter. Raven Guard are clearly designed to operate with a mix of close assault and ranged to kill enemy commanders and then shatter disrupted lines. Salamnders are a close range assault faction. And Ultramarines are the flexable donkey-caves with a tool for every situation.

Haha, it`s not strong its broken, IH just make it more obvious because their rules are absurd.
SM units are to good and most of them to cheap with their current rules and the stratagems, auras, powers and litanies make the army too good and flexible vs every opponent.
You can select random chapter put random units in the detachments and you still have chance to win games.

Marin wrote:
Haha, it`s not strong its broken, IH just make it more obvious because their rules are absurd.
SM units are to good and most of them to cheap with their current rules and the stratagems, auras, powers and litanies make the army too good and flexible vs every opponent.
You can select random chapter put random units in the detachments and you still have chance to win games.

I highly doubt that, considering random means more likely non primaris.

Aren't primaris heavy armies with scout doing alright right now? Am not talking winning big tournaments with skew builds, but store games or smaller store events? They seem to be very popular in Poland. And it ain't just IH, WS and RG , even ultras are all very popular.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Wow, so now we’re getting derailed with apologists instead. Sorry for trying.

Question:
I'm looking at those tournament results right now, and it was Kurt Clauss, not Mark Hertel, who came in third place. Why does this screenshot not match the results on BCP?

Karol wrote:
Aren't primaris heavy armies with scout doing alright right now? Am not talking winning big tournaments with skew builds, but store games or smaller store events? They seem to be very popular in Poland. And it ain't just IH, WS and RG , even ultras are all very popular.

Basically dex 2.0 made primaris in all rainbow colours good choices.
And good in a sense of good.

BrianDavion wrote:
in the same vein mind you, this is also something you WANT, ignroing iron hands for a moment (when everyone else gets 2 chapter traits and they get 3, there is no denying they're unbalanced) the space marine codex is a great codex. Whereas with Codex Adeptus Adepts I might be locked into 1 or 2 decent builds, Marines have a huge number of options that are solid. everyone focuses on Iron Hands, but IMHO Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are both really good too. (and IMHO make the the "top marines trinity" right now) And Raven Guard and Scars have their uses.

Absolutely this is what I want, for all codexes. You're 100% correct with that. GW have done a great job with the Marine dex and supplements, it's just a shame they look so strong compared to everything else. I really hope other codexes get this treatment sooner rather than later.

Also, in addition, I looked at the three most recent events labeled as Grand Tournaments on BCP. (I'm not subscribed, so I can't look at events more than three days old.)

The top five factions in each were:
Michigan GT:
Iron Hands
Imperial Soup
Orks
Space Marine Soup
Knights

Armageddon Series GT:
Space Marine Soup
Iron Hands
White Scars
Tau
Chaos

BFS GT X: (The tournament cited above)
Iron Hands
Iron Hands
Asuryani
Iron Hands
Space Marine Soup


In other words, Iron Hands are doing quite well, but they're not unbeatable. Selectively citing only the tournament where they were most dominant while ignoring the others where they perform well but see other competition is incredibly disingenuous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
in the same vein mind you, this is also something you WANT, ignroing iron hands for a moment (when everyone else gets 2 chapter traits and they get 3, there is no denying they're unbalanced) the space marine codex is a great codex.

This is an incredibly stupid and ridiculous line of argument that I keep seeing. The flat number of abilities doesn't matter, the effectiveness of those abilities matters.

Imagine, for a moment, that Iron Hands got only one ability, but that ability was 4+ FNP instead of 6+. Would you still be arguing that the number of abilities is what dictates their power? Or would you be reasonably pointing out that Iron Hands' one ability is flatly better than anyone else's and that is what makes it stronger?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Marin wrote:
Haha, it`s not strong its broken, IH just make it more obvious because their rules are absurd.
SM units are to good and most of them to cheap with their current rules and the stratagems, auras, powers and litanies make the army too good and flexible vs every opponent.
You can select random chapter put random units in the detachments and you still have chance to win games.

I highly doubt that, considering random means more likely non primaris.

Do they need to be primaris? Mini marines still get all the benefits of doctrines strategem etc plus access to drop pods and are now cheaper than csm and non codex equivalents.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Marin wrote:
Haha, it`s not strong its broken, IH just make it more obvious because their rules are absurd.
SM units are to good and most of them to cheap with their current rules and the stratagems, auras, powers and litanies make the army too good and flexible vs every opponent.
You can select random chapter put random units in the detachments and you still have chance to win games.

I highly doubt that, considering random means more likely non primaris.

Do they need to be primaris? Mini marines still get all the benefits of doctrines strategem etc plus access to drop pods and are now cheaper than csm and non codex equivalents.

Primaris atm are just, well better at what they do.
Most oldmarines units entries are also some that never really see daylight.
Don't forget that, on all good oldmarines unit there are 2-3 meh to bad ones.
Atleast imo.

This is a popular version of IH played around here, anyone has any ideas how to beat this specific list with necrons or dark angles?

Vanguard Detachment <IRON HANDS> +1CP

HQ1: Captain of Bike (88), Storm Bolter (2), Twin bolter (2), Lightning claw (6) [98pts] Iron Stone (Relict), WARLORD: Target Protocols (Chapter Master -2CP)

Elite1: Redemptor Dreadnought (105), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Onslaught Gatling Cannon (16), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), Icarus Rocked Pod (6), Redemptor Fist (0) [161pts]
Elite2: Redemptor Dreadnought (105), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Onslaught Gatling Cannon (16), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), Icarus Rocked Pod (6), Redemptor Fist (0) [161pts]
Elite3: Redemptor Dreadnought (105), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Onslaught Gatling Cannon (16), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), Icarus Rocked Pod (6), Redemptor Fist (0) [161pts]

Transport1: Impulsor (75), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Shield Dome (18), Ironhail heavy stubber [103pts]
Transport2: Impulsor (75), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Shield Dome (18), Ironhail heavy stubber [103pts]
Transport3: Impulsor (75), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Shield Dome (18), Ironhail heavy stubber [103pts]

Spearhead Detachment <IRON HANDS> +1CP

HQ1: Iron Father [110pts]

HS1: Repulsor Executioner (215), Heavy Laser Destroyer (40), 2 Fragstorm Grenade Luncher (8), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), 2 Storm Bolter (4), Twin Heavy Bolter (17), Twin Icarus Ironhail heavy Stuber (10), Auto Luncher (0), Iron hail heavy Stuber (6), Icarus Rocked Pod (6) [336pts]
HS2: Repulsor Executioner (215), Heavy Laser Destroyer (40), 2 Fragstorm Grenade Luncher (8), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), 2 Storm Bolter (4), Twin Heavy Bolter (17), Twin Icarus Ironhail heavy Stuber (10), Auto Luncher (0), Iron hail heavy Stuber (6), Icarus Rocked Pod (6) [336pts]
HS3: Thunderfirecannon (55), Techmarin gunner (26), flamer (6), plazma cutter (5) [92pts]

Outrider Detachment <IRON HANDS> +1CP

HQ1: Lieutnant (60), 2x Lightning claw (10) [70pts]

FA1: Land Speeder (45), Heavy bolter (10) [55pts]
FA2: Land Speeder (45), Heavy bolter (10) [55pts]
FA2: Land Speeder (45), Heavy bolter (10) [55pts]

Karol wrote:
This is a popular version of IH played around here, anyone has any ideas how to beat this specific list with necrons or dark angles?

Vanguard Detachment <IRON HANDS> +1CP

HQ1: Captain of Bike (88), Storm Bolter (2), Twin bolter (2), Lightning claw (6) [98pts] Iron Stone (Relict), WARLORD: Target Protocols (Chapter Master -2CP)

Elite1: Redemptor Dreadnought (105), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Onslaught Gatling Cannon (16), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), Icarus Rocked Pod (6), Redemptor Fist (0) [161pts]
Elite2: Redemptor Dreadnought (105), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Onslaught Gatling Cannon (16), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), Icarus Rocked Pod (6), Redemptor Fist (0) [161pts]
Elite3: Redemptor Dreadnought (105), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Onslaught Gatling Cannon (16), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), Icarus Rocked Pod (6), Redemptor Fist (0) [161pts]

Transport1: Impulsor (75), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Shield Dome (18), Ironhail heavy stubber [103pts]
Transport2: Impulsor (75), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Shield Dome (18), Ironhail heavy stubber [103pts]
Transport3: Impulsor (75), Storm Bolter x2 (4), Shield Dome (18), Ironhail heavy stubber [103pts]

Spearhead Detachment <IRON HANDS> +1CP

HQ1: Iron Father [110pts]

HS1: Repulsor Executioner (215), Heavy Laser Destroyer (40), 2 Fragstorm Grenade Luncher (8), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), 2 Storm Bolter (4), Twin Heavy Bolter (17), Twin Icarus Ironhail heavy Stuber (10), Auto Luncher (0), Iron hail heavy Stuber (6), Icarus Rocked Pod (6) [336pts]
HS2: Repulsor Executioner (215), Heavy Laser Destroyer (40), 2 Fragstorm Grenade Luncher (8), Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon (30), 2 Storm Bolter (4), Twin Heavy Bolter (17), Twin Icarus Ironhail heavy Stuber (10), Auto Luncher (0), Iron hail heavy Stuber (6), Icarus Rocked Pod (6) [336pts]
HS3: Thunderfirecannon (55), Techmarin gunner (26), flamer (6), plazma cutter (5) [92pts]

Outrider Detachment <IRON HANDS> +1CP

HQ1: Lieutnant (60), 2x Lightning claw (10) [70pts]

FA1: Land Speeder (45), Heavy bolter (10) [55pts]
FA2: Land Speeder (45), Heavy bolter (10) [55pts]
FA2: Land Speeder (45), Heavy bolter (10) [55pts]

I'm not well versed in Dark Angels or Necrons, but I'm seeing a serious lack of screens and infantry here. If you can get into CQC or use snipers to take out the Chapter Master, then the rest of the army should fall like dominos to good anti-tank. There's no dreadnoughts to take advantage of the half damage stratagem, either.

He also only has one unit that can fire without LOS, so make sure you're using sufficient terrain (ITC levels seem to be the best balanced in my experience, with the first floors of ruins always blocking LOS) so that you can avoid being gunned down too early. Deep Striking to get into good firing position should help as well, since almost nothing in his army can use Auspex Scan to repel your shooting. Dark Angels have Drop Pods, right?

Ok. I'll admit now that I was on the wrong and Iron Hand are way too powerfull.

I mean, I always tought they deserved some nerfs but didn't believed they were all that BAD. But when optimized they really are.

I believe they just get too much bonuses. Something like the 1 cp stratagem to deny powers, for example. Is like. Why? It doesn't make any kind of sense for them, Iron Hands have nothing to do with psychic power in their fluff, so why have they something like that? Is like someone wrote the supplement with the idea of giving them ALL OF THE TOOLS.
And then some.