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Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
The deathblob is relatively easy beatable if you have a lot off chaff.
How exactly? Like maybe a daemon horde who doesn't even care about the AP. Still a pretty good chance they just get shot off the table. That is certainly the reason ITC rewards killing. So you can't take 400 nurglings and win games.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Master Artisans seems like an odd choice here, given that he's spamming multi-shot weapons for the most part. Not sure what I'd replace with though and free rerolls are always good. Cool list though
It makes multishot weapons exquisitely reliable against their optimal targets, and viable against non-optimal targets. Taking Eliminators from 2 wounds to 3 wounds per squad for instance, is night and day difference. In conjunction with the super-doctrine it makes heavy weapons terrifying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 16:14:03
I am sort of struggling with "you idiots, you fools, IH are not remotely overpowered for castling up... They are in fact quite clearly overpowered for a different reason, as you can see by all the placings in this tournament".
But yeah, I think the key is going to be taking stuff that is pointed to take into account the penalty for moving, and then going "nah, and I reroll 1s. So I expect to get over 50% more damage out of it". I think the stone and 5++ save is however a great boon for ensuring your opening deployment doesn't get shot up if you go second versus certain armies. You can then spread across the table with penalty.
Nitro Zeus wrote: The funny thing is that the people saying that anchoring around a buff bubble with "unkillable" vehicles might not be a strategy that can actually win events, and people should play it out before whining about it... were entirely correct, based off these results.
Not a single Iron daddy, Leviathan, or Executioner in all those lists that placed high. Iron Hands are still very strong clearly, but not for any of the reasons you guys were complaining about, which is an excellent example of why we should wait to these things hit tournament before changing them, and why mathhammer and theorycrafting isn't equivalent to actual play experience. A the very least you get to know what to ask for changes to, if any, though I still say lets get a bit of a clearer picture first. And yeah, Iron Hands look very strong, but honestly Drukhari was putting up similar results after release and they have a playerbase the fraction of the size of marines.
There are a couple camps at play - those who hate ITC without playing it and those who don't play 40K who still come here to needle the game and IH was their best chance. I get that IH severely breaks single objective missions, which is exactly why you shouldn't use those competitively and IH still needs fixing, but a lot of these lists and nowhere near the hype. Remember when people said Chaincannons were going to wreck everything?
The winning list was this -- no 5+ overwatch; No 6+++; No bracket boost.
Basically he ran a bunch of 2+ vehicles. No 5++ from IFF. Good luck winning games with low AP weapons. Is this list unbeatable? No idea, but guess what he beat Round 1?
Round 1 - IFF, Levi, 2 Executioners
Round 2 - Basic Boyz mob w/ support
Round 3 - The ultimate in Eldar flyer spam
Round 4 - Haywire and Disintegrators
Round 5 - IFF, 2 Invictors, 5 Cents, Mortis
Round 6 - Smash cap; Smash chap; 6 Cents, 2 Mortis, 3 Stormtalons
Spoiler:
Iron Hands Successor -- Master Artisans (Salamanders single reroll to hit and wound); Stealthy (cover)
Captain on bike, SS Librarian, Jump
Librarian Phobos
Techmarine on Bike
Would love to know if he used the iron stone relic as successors can use the relics for CP and with a brigade of CP 1CP wasn't going to break the bank.
Some of those choices make sence, though combining master artisans, stealthy and the ironhands super doctrines is just filthy especially when your building around single model units
Master Artisans seems like an odd choice here, given that he's spamming multi-shot weapons for the most part. Not sure what I'd replace with though and free rerolls are always good. Cool list though
The extra range one is AMAZING. Remember how sometimes you just needed that extra couple of inches to make a charge? Now you just needed that extra inch to Rapid fire or that extra 3" to stay away from a charge. That + Stealthy are easily my favorite traits together.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Tyel wrote: I am sort of struggling with "you idiots, you fools, IH are not remotely overpowered for castling up... They are in fact quite clearly overpowered for a different reason, as you can see by all the placings in this tournament".
But yeah, I think the key is going to be taking stuff that is pointed to take into account the penalty for moving, and then going "nah, and I reroll 1s. So I expect to get over 50% more damage out of it". I think the stone and 5++ save is however a great boon for ensuring your opening deployment doesn't get shot up if you go second versus certain armies. You can then spread across the table with penalty.
But lets see with more tournaments.
Yeah, I remember seeing the stormhawk interceptor's points for the first time and going 'wait you get all that for so little points?" but wait, no PotM and you have to move so your effectively BS 4. Well that makes a big difference.
Oops, turns out if you give it PotM and re-roll 1's for free it becomes an undercosted flyer.
But you can't just raise the points of the stormhawk because then it becomes utterly worthless for everyone that isn't an IH, so how do you fix it?
Any time a you gave away rules for free you creating another potential major balancing problem.
Tyel wrote: I am sort of struggling with "you idiots, you fools, IH are not remotely overpowered for castling up... They are in fact quite clearly overpowered for a different reason, as you can see by all the placings in this tournament".
But yeah, I think the key is going to be taking stuff that is pointed to take into account the penalty for moving, and then going "nah, and I reroll 1s. So I expect to get over 50% more damage out of it". I think the stone and 5++ save is however a great boon for ensuring your opening deployment doesn't get shot up if you go second versus certain armies. You can then spread across the table with penalty.
But lets see with more tournaments.
Yeah, I remember seeing the stormhawk interceptor's points for the first time and going 'wait you get all that for so little points?" but wait, no PotM and you have to move so your effectively BS 4. Well that makes a big difference.
Oops, turns out if you give it PotM and re-roll 1's for free it becomes an undercosted flyer.
But you can't just raise the points of the stormhawk because then it becomes utterly worthless for everyone that isn't an IH, so how do you fix it?
Any time a you gave away rules for free you creating another potential major balancing problem.
That's because the Super Doctrines were a poor idea and it's honestly just bizarre nobody caught it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
The deathblob is relatively easy beatable if you have a lot off chaff.
How exactly? Like maybe a daemon horde who doesn't even care about the AP. Still a pretty good chance they just get shot off the table. That is certainly the reason ITC rewards killing. So you can't take 400 nurglings and win games.
Or just charge something like 10 hormagaunts at it. They don't have to charge anything that overwatches decently but have all the necessary movement to pile in on whatever they want. Done, leviathan shut down. No, you can't heroically intervene with anything, since that is declared before the pile in happens.
Castling around a model that can be shut down in melee isn't really effective, especially when you are forced to not soup and your faction does not offer screens.
Castling around executioners is a bit better, but they are not invulnerable in the same way as a dreadnaught, and they don't offer the same firepower for the cost.
Tyel wrote: I am sort of struggling with "you idiots, you fools, IH are not remotely overpowered for castling up... They are in fact quite clearly overpowered for a different reason, as you can see by all the placings in this tournament".
But yeah, I think the key is going to be taking stuff that is pointed to take into account the penalty for moving, and then going "nah, and I reroll 1s. So I expect to get over 50% more damage out of it". I think the stone and 5++ save is however a great boon for ensuring your opening deployment doesn't get shot up if you go second versus certain armies. You can then spread across the table with penalty.
But lets see with more tournaments.
Yeah, I remember seeing the stormhawk interceptor's points for the first time and going 'wait you get all that for so little points?" but wait, no PotM and you have to move so your effectively BS 4. Well that makes a big difference.
Oops, turns out if you give it PotM and re-roll 1's for free it becomes an undercosted flyer.
But you can't just raise the points of the stormhawk because then it becomes utterly worthless for everyone that isn't an IH, so how do you fix it?
Any time a you gave away rules for free you creating another potential major balancing problem.
That's because the Super Doctrines were a poor idea and it's honestly just bizarre nobody caught it.
Super doctrines are firewalled. The problem is that everyone thought soup and CP were the cause of balance woes.
When you make units good and give free rules then it becomes more of a problem, but people asked for this - convinced they could bring down soup if they did so.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 17:24:38
Tyel wrote: I am sort of struggling with "you idiots, you fools, IH are not remotely overpowered for castling up... They are in fact quite clearly overpowered for a different reason, as you can see by all the placings in this tournament".
But yeah, I think the key is going to be taking stuff that is pointed to take into account the penalty for moving, and then going "nah, and I reroll 1s. So I expect to get over 50% more damage out of it". I think the stone and 5++ save is however a great boon for ensuring your opening deployment doesn't get shot up if you go second versus certain armies. You can then spread across the table with penalty.
But lets see with more tournaments.
Yeah, I remember seeing the stormhawk interceptor's points for the first time and going 'wait you get all that for so little points?" but wait, no PotM and you have to move so your effectively BS 4. Well that makes a big difference.
Oops, turns out if you give it PotM and re-roll 1's for free it becomes an undercosted flyer.
But you can't just raise the points of the stormhawk because then it becomes utterly worthless for everyone that isn't an IH, so how do you fix it?
Any time a you gave away rules for free you creating another potential major balancing problem.
That's because the Super Doctrines were a poor idea and it's honestly just bizarre nobody caught it.
Super doctrines are firewalled. The problem is that everyone thought soup and CP were the cause of balance woes.
When you make units good and give free rules then it becomes more of a problem, but people asked for this - convinced they could bring down soup if they did so.
Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
The deathblob is relatively easy beatable if you have a lot off chaff.
How exactly? Like maybe a daemon horde who doesn't even care about the AP. Still a pretty good chance they just get shot off the table. That is certainly the reason ITC rewards killing. So you can't take 400 nurglings and win games.
Or just charge something like 10 hormagaunts at it. They don't have to charge anything that overwatches decently but have all the necessary movement to pile in on whatever they want. Done, leviathan shut down. No, you can't heroically intervene with anything, since that is declared before the pile in happens.
Castling around a model that can be shut down in melee isn't really effective, especially when you are forced to not soup and your faction does not offer screens.
Castling around executioners is a bit better, but they are not invulnerable in the same way as a dreadnaught, and they don't offer the same firepower for the cost.
No - those will not survive a round of combat with intercessors. Intercessors are an amazing screen. Typically they beat what is charging them or survive the round at the very least. Plus in the executioner setup - you literally CAN NOT touch my levithan without killing an executioner with -2 charge -1 damage 6+FNP and a 5++ save. Because there is literally no way to place. GOOD LUCK with that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 17:33:33
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I dont know that its terribly far off. People weren't losing their minds with UM or RG or WS (though I'm sure we'll discover their hidden talents, too). The boogeyman of IH is different in its actual application.
Things like the invictor being solidly efficient on top of unit dynamics that weren't easily exploited before makes a world of difference. And that on top of really useful stratagems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 17:38:11
Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
The deathblob is relatively easy beatable if you have a lot off chaff.
How exactly? Like maybe a daemon horde who doesn't even care about the AP. Still a pretty good chance they just get shot off the table. That is certainly the reason ITC rewards killing. So you can't take 400 nurglings and win games.
155 of morale immune mutants with T4.
Atleast for me that did the trick.
Well that and another 100 militia and another 50 command and regular disciples.
And that is R&H.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
The deathblob is relatively easy beatable if you have a lot off chaff.
How exactly? Like maybe a daemon horde who doesn't even care about the AP. Still a pretty good chance they just get shot off the table. That is certainly the reason ITC rewards killing. So you can't take 400 nurglings and win games.
155 of morale immune mutants with T4.
Atleast for me that did the trick.
Well that and another 100 militia and another 50 command and regular disciples.
And that is R&H.
Heck if that became popular Auto Boltguns on the intercessors would be a lot more preferable. Me personally I don't see any armies like that. Repulsor and invictor party would probably do best against an army like that.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Marin wrote: I think you are quite wrong, other chapters are also super good, it was shown on London GT - atleast 5 undefeated lists, took part of atrleast other 2 Impirium undefeated list.
They were only beaten by the aeldar flyers spam, who will probably be addressed in CA and IH are already destroying that kind of army.
What people should stop repeating is SM die like space marines, most of the armies would dream that their troops die like SM. T4 2+ in cover is not easy thing to remove for most armies and usually you have to dedicate 2x more costly units.
The release of SM 2.0 was really big mistake that really can push alot of people out of the game.
I don't know why anyone should stop saying that Space Marines die like Space Marines, because they mostly still do. Aggressors and Centurions got a little bit harder, IH and RG tanks got a little bit harder, but overall Codex 2.0 Marines die just as fast as Codex 1.0 Marines.
The problem Codex 1.0 Marines had is that they had the strats and equipment of an army that could shrug off a turn or two of enemy fire and deliver decisive damage over three or four turns, but in practice a Marine army got blown off the table turn-one just like everyone else. An individual Marine is a lot tougher than most troops, but not nearly by enough for the state of the game.
I get the impression (just a feeling mind you) that GW started with trying to make Marines tough enough to actually tank fire for two or three turns and realized it just wasn't going to work with the current rules without getting really un-fun to play against and increased their effective firepower and melee ability instead.
Marin wrote: I think you are quite wrong, other chapters are also super good, it was shown on London GT - atleast 5 undefeated lists, took part of atrleast other 2 Impirium undefeated list.
They were only beaten by the aeldar flyers spam, who will probably be addressed in CA and IH are already destroying that kind of army.
What people should stop repeating is SM die like space marines, most of the armies would dream that their troops die like SM. T4 2+ in cover is not easy thing to remove for most armies and usually you have to dedicate 2x more costly units.
The release of SM 2.0 was really big mistake that really can push alot of people out of the game.
I don't know why anyone should stop saying that Space Marines die like Space Marines, because they mostly still do. Aggressors and Centurions got a little bit harder, IH and RG tanks got a little bit harder, but overall Codex 2.0 Marines die just as fast as Codex 1.0 Marines.
The problem Codex 1.0 Marines had is that they had the strats and equipment of an army that could shrug off a turn or two of enemy fire and deliver decisive damage over three or four turns, but in practice a Marine army got blown off the table turn-one just like everyone else. An individual Marine is a lot tougher than most troops, but not nearly by enough for the state of the game.
I get the impression (just a feeling mind you) that GW started with trying to make Marines tough enough to actually tank fire for two or three turns and realized it just wasn't going to work with the current rules without getting really un-fun to play against and increased their effective firepower and melee ability instead.
Just the FNP would have been enough. -1 damage aura is nutts. Like dude...have you ever shot at a wave serpent? It's pretty unsatisfying.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Wave serpents aren't T8 and don't put out any meaningful firepower for their points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 18:35:02
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: Wave serpents aren't T8 and don't put out any meaningful firepower for their points.
exactly. I ignore serpents until there is nothing left. You cant ignore an executioner - it will destroy you.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Fair points there...I really have no idea which will be best. I know they way I'd want to run it would be double executioner and levi dread with lots of intercessors. You only run deathblob if you need to - everything in this army can spread out and reroll 1's while on the move with no move penalties. Objectively - it plays objective game better than anyone gives it credit for.
In my mind I see Mass character dreads as probably being the strongest. Also Ironstone + Mass landspeeders and flyers seems pretty broken too.
Really - the thing no one is being honest about is how much iron hands benefits basically every unit better than any other chapter - or at least some build with that unit is superior. Regardless of what the powerlevel on this next wave of codex this needs to be addressed. Ether by buffing the weaker chapter aspects to be on par with the field or nerfing iron hands to be on par with the feild (also likely nerfing IF as well).
The deathblob is relatively easy beatable if you have a lot off chaff.
How exactly? Like maybe a daemon horde who doesn't even care about the AP. Still a pretty good chance they just get shot off the table. That is certainly the reason ITC rewards killing. So you can't take 400 nurglings and win games.
155 of morale immune mutants with T4.
Atleast for me that did the trick.
Well that and another 100 militia and another 50 command and regular disciples.
And that is R&H.
Heck if that became popular Auto Boltguns on the intercessors would be a lot more preferable. Me personally I don't see any armies like that. Repulsor and invictor party would probably do best against an army like that.
Tbf it was mostly a test match against a long standing mate, i did the same match with my csm list, the result was decidedly in favour of nu marines.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I dont know that its terribly far off. People weren't losing their minds with UM or RG or WS (though I'm sure we'll discover their hidden talents, too). The boogeyman of IH is different in its actual application.
Things like the invictor being solidly efficient on top of unit dynamics that weren't easily exploited before makes a world of difference. And that on top of really useful stratagems.
I actually lost my mind about White Scars until I discovered there's literally NO way to get the benefit until T3.
Tyel wrote: I am sort of struggling with "you idiots, you fools, IH are not remotely overpowered for castling up... They are in fact quite clearly overpowered for a different reason, as you can see by all the placings in this tournament".
But yeah, I think the key is going to be taking stuff that is pointed to take into account the penalty for moving, and then going "nah, and I reroll 1s. So I expect to get over 50% more damage out of it". I think the stone and 5++ save is however a great boon for ensuring your opening deployment doesn't get shot up if you go second versus certain armies. You can then spread across the table with penalty.
But lets see with more tournaments.
Yeah, I remember seeing the stormhawk interceptor's points for the first time and going 'wait you get all that for so little points?" but wait, no PotM and you have to move so your effectively BS 4. Well that makes a big difference.
Oops, turns out if you give it PotM and re-roll 1's for free it becomes an undercosted flyer.
But you can't just raise the points of the stormhawk because then it becomes utterly worthless for everyone that isn't an IH, so how do you fix it?
Any time a you gave away rules for free you creating another potential major balancing problem.
That's because the Super Doctrines were a poor idea and it's honestly just bizarre nobody caught it.
Super doctrines are firewalled. The problem is that everyone thought soup and CP were the cause of balance woes.
When you make units good and give free rules then it becomes more of a problem, but people asked for this - convinced they could bring down soup if they did so.
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 19:29:13
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I dont know that its terribly far off. People weren't losing their minds with UM or RG or WS (though I'm sure we'll discover their hidden talents, too). The boogeyman of IH is different in its actual application.
Things like the invictor being solidly efficient on top of unit dynamics that weren't easily exploited before makes a world of difference. And that on top of really useful stratagems.
I actually lost my mind about White Scars until I discovered there's literally NO way to get the benefit until T3.
Me too. I think I made a case that Ultras were going to be unstoppable OP (currently 5-0 with them after release...) Literally never beat my friends CWE with marines all edition until this release...now I trounce him so bad all we can do is laugh.
Lets just look at this example here. Cronus in a stalker has always been good...but if I had to move to get in range to shoot his spears I'd be at a -1 then he could go to -2 (hittin on 4's and cant reroll 2/3) for 2 CP and I'd still only be AP -1 so if he was in cover he'd get a 3+ save.
Now I can use the same unit. Except for 1 CP I am hitting on 2's rerolling everything with +1 to wound and ap-2 instead of 1...it will literally result in double damage or more. Killing 1-2 spears is a big difference between killing 2 or 3. It's like the across the board for literally everything that shoots in this army now. An additional -1 AP on every gun and likely hitting better to because I can reroll more shots. It is day and night in comparison. Plus with the addition of invictor dreads...I'm not sure I will lose to CWE again for some time.
This is just Ultras too..Ironhands would be even more disgusting.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
Most of what a TFC encompasses is irrelevant to IH. It shoots out of LOS so a 6+++ is irrelevant. For mostly the same reason so it a 5+ overwatch. It doesn't move. BS2 is a better buff than reroll 1s (together they're a little silly). An extra AP is about the only buff without strings.
Are people taking them for BS2 AP2 heavy bolter shots? I doubt it. 92 points for 8 HB shots is nothing game breaking. Double shooting with Tremor Shells, however, is quite useful - neither of which require IH.
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
Most of what a TFC encompasses is irrelevant to IH. It shoots out of LOS so a 6+++ is irrelevant. For mostly the same reason so it a 5+ overwatch. It doesn't move. BS2 is a better buff than reroll 1s (together they're a little silly). An extra AP is about the only buff without strings.
Are people taking them for BS2 AP2 heavy bolter shots? I doubt it. 92 points for 8 HB shots is nothing game breaking. Double shooting with Tremor Shells, however, is quite useful - neither of which require IH.
TFC is typically not in your reroll bubble so the reroll 1's for it is big. As it wants to be out of LOS so it can shoot twice at the same target out of LOS. The ability to move and shoot without pentalty is also big for it as it can move behind something and blast at you out of LOS rerolling all hits on 2's. It's not a phenomenal unit though...it's pretty terrible without the stratagem. Ironhands land speeders though...jezz...who woulda thought they had the best speeders?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
Most of what a TFC encompasses is irrelevant to IH. It shoots out of LOS so a 6+++ is irrelevant. For mostly the same reason so it a 5+ overwatch. It doesn't move. BS2 is a better buff than reroll 1s (together they're a little silly). An extra AP is about the only buff without strings.
Are people taking them for BS2 AP2 heavy bolter shots? I doubt it. 92 points for 8 HB shots is nothing game breaking. Double shooting with Tremor Shells, however, is quite useful - neither of which require IH.
TFC is typically not in your reroll bubble so the reroll 1's for it is big. As it wants to be out of LOS so it can shoot twice at the same target out of LOS. The ability to move and shoot without pentalty is also big for it as it can move behind something and blast at you out of LOS rerolling all hits on 2's. It's not a phenomenal unit though...it's pretty terrible without the stratagem. Ironhands land speeders though...jezz...who woulda thought they had the best speeders?
One note: You *can't* fire twice with the stratagem if you move. Even with Iron Hands, the TFC will want to stay stationary.
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
Most of what a TFC encompasses is irrelevant to IH. It shoots out of LOS so a 6+++ is irrelevant. For mostly the same reason so it a 5+ overwatch. It doesn't move. BS2 is a better buff than reroll 1s (together they're a little silly). An extra AP is about the only buff without strings.
Are people taking them for BS2 AP2 heavy bolter shots? I doubt it. 92 points for 8 HB shots is nothing game breaking. Double shooting with Tremor Shells, however, is quite useful - neither of which require IH.
TFC is typically not in your reroll bubble so the reroll 1's for it is big. As it wants to be out of LOS so it can shoot twice at the same target out of LOS. The ability to move and shoot without pentalty is also big for it as it can move behind something and blast at you out of LOS rerolling all hits on 2's. It's not a phenomenal unit though...it's pretty terrible without the stratagem. Ironhands land speeders though...jezz...who woulda thought they had the best speeders?
One note: You *can't* fire twice with the stratagem if you move. Even with Iron Hands, the TFC will want to stay stationary.
That is a good point but - the option is always there. Like if you are out of CP or had no where to hide to shoot twice anyways without moving. It's true the move and shoot is not that important for the TFC. The reroll 1's is. Also - staying in devastator doctrine with it is also big. This is one of the few units that is hands down better as another chapter with no argument - Imperial fist TFC is best TFC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 20:19:11
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Tyel wrote: I am sort of struggling with "you idiots, you fools, IH are not remotely overpowered for castling up... They are in fact quite clearly overpowered for a different reason, as you can see by all the placings in this tournament".
Dakka spent weeks complaining about things that weren't even used at the event and then wants to act like this one GT is vindication.
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
Most of what a TFC encompasses is irrelevant to IH. It shoots out of LOS so a 6+++ is irrelevant. For mostly the same reason so it a 5+ overwatch. It doesn't move. BS2 is a better buff than reroll 1s (together they're a little silly). An extra AP is about the only buff without strings.
Are people taking them for BS2 AP2 heavy bolter shots? I doubt it. 92 points for 8 HB shots is nothing game breaking. Double shooting with Tremor Shells, however, is quite useful - neither of which require IH.
The BS2+ and the 6+++, which the Gun didn't have before, are 0retty relevant. This means now I can use a piece of artillery besides something from the Guard.
Really, that's how you incentivize something. You make stuff worth taking on their own merit. If I wanted Guard artillery, it should be because I just wanted to take them rather than being forced to because Marine artillery is bad.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
Most of what a TFC encompasses is irrelevant to IH. It shoots out of LOS so a 6+++ is irrelevant. For mostly the same reason so it a 5+ overwatch. It doesn't move. BS2 is a better buff than reroll 1s (together they're a little silly). An extra AP is about the only buff without strings.
Are people taking them for BS2 AP2 heavy bolter shots? I doubt it. 92 points for 8 HB shots is nothing game breaking. Double shooting with Tremor Shells, however, is quite useful - neither of which require IH.
The BS2+ and the 6+++, which the Gun didn't have before, are 0retty relevant. This means now I can use a piece of artillery besides something from the Guard.
Really, that's how you incentivize something. You make stuff worth taking on their own merit. If I wanted Guard artillery, it should be because I just wanted to take them rather than being forced to because Marine artillery is bad.
Considering guard field artillery sucks anyways i am unsure why you're wanting them in the first place.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Why is everyone losing their minds about Iron Hands?
I played two games over the weekend, one against Iron Hands and one against Ultramarines. Personally, I found the ultramarines to be a lot harder.
Abaddon made quick work of that iron father character without taking a single wound. My Obliterators and Plasma Marines made quick work of the rest of the army.
I found the "fall back and shoot hellblasters at full Ballistic Skill" to be a lot more scary than the iron hands being super durable.
The only way you stop allies is not making your units suck. NOW I have incentive to take TFCs for example because they use the BS2+ again.
Most of what a TFC encompasses is irrelevant to IH. It shoots out of LOS so a 6+++ is irrelevant. For mostly the same reason so it a 5+ overwatch. It doesn't move. BS2 is a better buff than reroll 1s (together they're a little silly). An extra AP is about the only buff without strings.
Are people taking them for BS2 AP2 heavy bolter shots? I doubt it. 92 points for 8 HB shots is nothing game breaking. Double shooting with Tremor Shells, however, is quite useful - neither of which require IH.
TFC is typically not in your reroll bubble so the reroll 1's for it is big. As it wants to be out of LOS so it can shoot twice at the same target out of LOS. The ability to move and shoot without pentalty is also big for it as it can move behind something and blast at you out of LOS rerolling all hits on 2's. It's not a phenomenal unit though...it's pretty terrible without the stratagem. Ironhands land speeders though...jezz...who woulda thought they had the best speeders?
I might be misreading you Xenomancer, but I've read over that strat several times since the wording is a bit odd and I'm pretty darn sure it just says that it only works on a weapon that can fire at a target it doesn't have LoS to, not that there must be such a target available.
