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 Ordana wrote:
Better changes, some of which were proposed by the community.

Not touching the super doctrine still makes me think we will get a LOT of IH/successor lists top tournaments in the coming weeks/months.

What is the reason they use successor traits? Ironhands chapter tactic is hands down the best army trait in the game...There is literally no reason not to use it IMO. PLus if you soup marines you lose super doctrine. I see a lot of armies did that too. Seems almost like they were just actively gimping themselves.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Better changes, some of which were proposed by the community.

Not touching the super doctrine still makes me think we will get a LOT of IH/successor lists top tournaments in the coming weeks/months.

What is the reason they use successor traits? Ironhands chapter tactic is hands down the best army trait in the game...There is literally no reason not to use it IMO. PLus if you soup you lose super doctrine. I see a lot of armies did that too. Seems almost like they were just actively gimping themselves.

Stealthy gives you +1 save.
Master Artisan gives a lot of re-rolls.

IH chapter traits are good, no doubt about it. But it seems people would rather have over a dozen free re-rolls per turn.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Better changes, some of which were proposed by the community.

Not touching the super doctrine still makes me think we will get a LOT of IH/successor lists top tournaments in the coming weeks/months.

What is the reason they use successor traits? Ironhands chapter tactic is hands down the best army trait in the game...There is literally no reason not to use it IMO. PLus if you soup marines you lose super doctrine. I see a lot of armies did that too. Seems almost like they were just actively gimping themselves.

A number of winning tournament players disagree.

Why use overwatch if you intend to not get charged?
Why opt for a 6+++ when a 2+ can double your save against AP3?

Not everything is straightforward.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Better changes, some of which were proposed by the community.

Not touching the super doctrine still makes me think we will get a LOT of IH/successor lists top tournaments in the coming weeks/months.

What is the reason they use successor traits? Ironhands chapter tactic is hands down the best army trait in the game...There is literally no reason not to use it IMO. PLus if you soup marines you lose super doctrine. I see a lot of armies did that too. Seems almost like they were just actively gimping themselves.

A number of winning tournament players disagree.

Why use overwatch if you intend to not get charged?
Why opt for a 6+++ when a 2+ can double your save against AP3?

Not everything is straightforward.

It's also the double profile for degrading. +1 save is pretty big with Imperial fist being so strong though I'm pretty sure that wont be done anymore. 6+++ is always on too. They should really nerf that trait to not work on flyers as well...like the tyranids one...

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's also the double profile for degrading. +1 save is pretty big with Imperial fist being so strong though I'm pretty sure that wont be done anymore. 6+++ is always on too. They should really nerf that trait to not work on flyers as well...like the tyranids one...

Yea, but then you run things without a profile like land speeders and old dreads (and even vens who have 6+++ already).

There's quite a huge array of possibilities with these books that we're not going to scratch for a couple years at least.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's also the double profile for degrading. +1 save is pretty big with Imperial fist being so strong though I'm pretty sure that wont be done anymore. 6+++ is always on too. They should really nerf that trait to not work on flyers as well...like the tyranids one...

Yea, but then you run things without a profile like land speeders and old dreads (and even vens who have 6+++ already).

There's quite a huge array of possibilities with these books that we're not going to scratch for a couple years at least.

Take a regular dread then and save 20 points. You already reroll 1's naturally. It's not a clear upgrade at all and it prevented you from taking one of the best special characters ever released. I think it's just players trying to get fancy with it. Most of these lists aren't optimized. Doesn't really matter because prenerf ironhands is that busted.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So preliminary discussion predicted that IH would be OP, and named some particularly nasty units. IH did turn out to be OP, but the prediction of those specific units was wrong, so therefore the entire prediction was wrong?

Hahaha is that what happened? Because I seem to recall specifically saying that some parts of the prediction were right, other parts were wrong, and we should prooooobably stop pointing at the stuff we got wrong and using that to brag about how brilliant we were, but hey, I would expect that sort nuance to be lost on someone who was doing this in the first in the first place. It's not a complex thing, then again, I get the impression I'm not dealing with complex people.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
And not only that, but trying to predict things based on rules is unreliable as a whole? And not only that but it is OK that IH are OP because counters exist, and maybe something else just as bad will show up in the future?

Is this still at me? Because now it doesn't even resemble what I was saying. In fact I haven't seen anyone say any of that stuff since the results last weekend, but maybe I missed it.

Xeno, are you really saying tournament winners weren’t optimizing their lists?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Xeno, are you really saying tournament winners weren’t optimizing their lists?

I think he’s pointing out that this is early days for Iron Hands and even though they are crazy now, the lists will probably get fiercer in a bit of play experience to optimise them.

Well the tournament armies that are IH around here, use the shoty primaris dreads, and not leviathans or even normal dreads. There is, I think, still a good chance that not only the final version of the list isn't optimised, but also in some places didn't buy and paint all the models they need to get the best of the best for tournaments.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Xeno, are you really saying tournament winners weren’t optimizing their lists?

I can honestly say I don't know. It just seems they were trying to get cute or stand out or step away from the grain of the obvious choice. When I looked at the IH supplement I was at first enraged that it was so much better than ultramarines and then just started thinking of all the busted combinations. Giving up the best tactic in the game never occured to me but I can see a few cases where it makes sense...like with ven dreads or flyers. The really didn't have a lot of time to play it out. It really might have come down to the fact they didn't have the ferros model yet because it was hard to get a hold of in the beginning. Overall though it is a net loss. 6+ FNP is amazing in the tornament meta where a always in cover ability is easily ignored.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Xeno, are you really saying tournament winners weren’t optimizing their lists?

I think he’s pointing out that this is early days for Iron Hands and even though they are crazy now, the lists will probably get fiercer in a bit of play experience to optimise them.

Yeah somewhat - we'd need more time to really figure out what is best but successor Ironhands really strikes me as..."this book is so good I am just going to do something that is cheeky" or "Oh I'm not painted as Ironhands so this makes me feel better" Something like that.

This FAQ nerfed all existing IH builds.

It nerfed the parking lots out of existence.

It nerfed the flyers lists by removing the alpha strike protection and the huge repair capabilities which are essential for that kind of list.

It nerfed the dnaught spam by limiting the character dreads to a maximum of 1.

It nerfed the soup IH lists, since now the greatest boons of the faction come from the super doctrine, so they are much less soup friendly now.

Add the increased CP consumption of them, and you have probably the biggest and most complete nerf in 8th edition.

That said, IH will still be around, but at least you have an actual choice between them and other chapters.

I wasn't expecting about 14 page when I made this thread but ...
Glad it was useful !
What do you think of post Faq IH ? Do they still deserve the hate or have they been toned down enough ? Salamanders seem to be the new IH now.

They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

 godardc wrote:
I wasn't expecting about 14 page when I made this thread but ...
Glad it was useful !
What do you think of post Faq IH ? Do they still deserve the hate or have they been toned down enough ? Salamanders seem to be the new IH now.

The FAQ nerfed IH well enough, but it is not to say IH lost all viable builds now. I can see some combination still being decent.

a). 3 Devastator squads in Rhinos parked near Ferriors, hard hitting heavy weapons being protected by a "tough for its points" metal boxes. And if it is destroyed, enemy still have to go through 5++/6+++ to remove your heavy weapons. You can add sniper scouts and Eliminators to this castle too.
b). Flying potatoes spam. Storm talons and stormhawks. Hard to hit plus the FnP is not bad. You are also free to their respective preferred targets on a 2+ even if you moved.
c). Ironclad Dreadnought character surrounded by Contemptor Dreadnoughts to form a dreadnought rush box, bonus with Ironstone carrier follows behind them. This will at least likely let the Ironclad Dreadnought reach combat and wreck some face, before the Ironclad Dreadnought will just die on the route getting in. Just don't forget the "duty eternal".

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.

Marin wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.

Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.

Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?

Win ratio is only part of the story.

Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".

SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.

Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?

Win ratio is only part of the story.

Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".

SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.

And if you look at marines excluding the busted ironhands they arn't a problem your using stats that a rarely broken down into subfactions and throwing every one under the bus.

It like saying SaimHan need nerfs becase they have a 2.27 to marines 2.37 first lost round avarage

Yet in subfaction saim han arnt the best subfaction for Asurani it beil tan with 74% win ratio
Even the poster boys of broken ironhands and imperial fists only achieved 71% and 73% respectively.

Ice_can wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.

Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?

Win ratio is only part of the story.

Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".

SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.

And if you look at marines excluding the busted ironhands they arn't a problem your using stats that a rarely broken down into subfactions and throwing every one under the bus.

It like saying SaimHan need nerfs becase they have a 2.27 to marines 2.37 first lost round avarage

Yet in subfaction saim han arnt the best subfaction for Asurani it beil tan with 74% win ratio
Even the poster boys of broken ironhands and imperial fists only achieved 71% and 73% respectively.

Your numbers are way off. How many pure Biel-tan or Saim Han factions have you saw ?
https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results
How many tournaments have pure Biel-tan or Saim Han won ?

Just lol for SM protectors, who try to use numbers to explain their faction don`t need "MASSIVE NERF".

Marin wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.

Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?

Win ratio is only part of the story.

Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".

SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.

And if you look at marines excluding the busted ironhands they arn't a problem your using stats that a rarely broken down into subfactions and throwing every one under the bus.

It like saying SaimHan need nerfs becase they have a 2.27 to marines 2.37 first lost round avarage

Yet in subfaction saim han arnt the best subfaction for Asurani it beil tan with 74% win ratio
Even the poster boys of broken ironhands and imperial fists only achieved 71% and 73% respectively.

Your numbers are way off. How many pure Biel-tan or Saim Han factions have you saw ?
https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results
How many tournaments have pure Biel-tan or Saim Han won ?

Just lol for SM protectors, who try to use numbers to explain their faction don`t need "MASSIVE NERF".

Look at the results for 12th and 19th of October.

My numbers arnt off you just dont like that they don't fit your narative. I'm not saying ironhands needed nerfed or that imperial fists don't need nerfed but ultramarine certainly dont whitescars don't ravenguard may but they arn't exactlly the most winning subfaction in the stats.

I'm amazed we can have so many different numbers and stats for 40k. We truly live in a wonderful era. However, I'm not used to all of this, what is point earned vs point denied ?

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.

Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?

Win ratio is only part of the story.

Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".

SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.

And if you look at marines excluding the busted ironhands they arn't a problem your using stats that a rarely broken down into subfactions and throwing every one under the bus.

It like saying SaimHan need nerfs becase they have a 2.27 to marines 2.37 first lost round avarage

Yet in subfaction saim han arnt the best subfaction for Asurani it beil tan with 74% win ratio
Even the poster boys of broken ironhands and imperial fists only achieved 71% and 73% respectively.

Your numbers are way off. How many pure Biel-tan or Saim Han factions have you saw ?
https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results
How many tournaments have pure Biel-tan or Saim Han won ?

Just lol for SM protectors, who try to use numbers to explain their faction don`t need "MASSIVE NERF".

Look at the results for 12th and 19th of October.

My numbers arnt off you just dont like that they don't fit your narative. I'm not saying ironhands needed nerfed or that imperial fists don't need nerfed but ultramarine certainly dont whitescars don't ravenguard may but they arn't exactlly the most winning subfaction in the stats.

You mean the OP Saim-Hann with the mighty 36% WR and Biel-Tan winning percentage is probably because Sean Nayden list is wrongly labeled Biel-Tan ?
Those pesky Biel-Tan witches sure are good.
Or is it because 3 people bring lists(probably wrongly labeled) and have good win percentage, compared of factions played by over 50 people
I mean IF have higher WR for the some dates, played by 5 times more players and without supplement.

Search trough BCP and please find me this winning "pure" Biel-Tan lists. I`m really interested to find some amassing new aeldar lists.

 godardc wrote:
I'm amazed we can have so many different numbers and stats for 40k. We truly live in a wonderful era. However, I'm not used to all of this, what is point earned vs point denied ?

It's because of Beast Coast Pairings and 40kstats. Points earned is the average amount of victory points earned by a faction/sub-faction, points denied is how many enemies get on average. If you get a lot of victory points on average while your opponents get very few you're probably stomping some people so they don't get any VP. Twip is the data for how many games a faction plays on average while going undefeated. Twip of 2 you are undefeated for 1 game on average, twip of 3 you are undefeated for 2 games on average. If you look at undefeated lists Astartes are head and shoulders above everyone else and despite IH players whinging about their faction being nerfed into the ground, the successors lost incredibly little and they are as strong or stronger than IH. They just lost Ironstone, that's it. In lists with 7-10 vehicles the Ironstone was never going to cover all of them anyways. IF are probably going to dominate IH because of the nerfs they got. Of course tournaments are incredibly diverse in 8th, so as long as you don't top tournaments you might very rarely play against Adeptus Astartes or at least IH.

 Smirrors wrote:
They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.

And if you don't play an army that's 99% identical except for a different Super-doctrine?

The super doctrines are a big issue. Where other factions get an army-wide special rule or two and a subfaction rule, these new SM lists are getting a bazillion.

At this point, an Iron Hands basic Space Marine is rerolling morale tests, have enhanced double-tap abilities on rapid fire guns, get extra attacks whenever they charge or get charged, get enhanced AP on attacks army-wide depending on what weapon they're using/what turn it is, not suffering the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons and rerolling hit rolls of 1, sporting 6+++ FNP, overwatching on 5's and 6's, and their vehicles get to double wounds for damage table purposes like Iyanden/Valhalla to boot. This is strongly indicative of design having gone off the rails, 9 distinct abilities is an insane number of special rules, particularly that apply to literally every unit in an army.

All of that is just baseline free abilities that apply across the board and don't rely on Stratagems, Characters, Auras, etc. The much bemoaned Catachan Guardsman by comparison gets...+1S and +1Ld (when near an officer) and some vehicles get a reroll for number of shots. Even a Chaos Space Marine is only like 4 abilities (bolter discipline, hateful assault, dttfe, plus substantially less powerful Legion traits).

Yeah, some of the other new SM factions are also just as silly and it's not just IH. Compared to other armies however, the raw number of special abilities here is getting more than a wee bit absurd, especially when they require little or no effort to bring into play or utilize.

Removed - BrookM Let's wait and see how the meta pans out after a few months.

I can tell you right now that the Ultras are in no way over-powered, and the stats for the last month or so confirm that. Clearly a chapter with a special doctrine doesn't automatically cause problems.

Everything can be adjusted, as they did with the IH FAQ.

I don’t care for the WAY they nerfed Feirros. I would have preferred a points increase. Or maybe make it so he can activate the vehicle invuln once per battle or something.

That’s pretty much it.

A player of the new overpowered faction saying we should wait a few months how the meta settles, how surprising.

Thepatriarch wrote:
A player of the new overpowered faction saying we should wait a few months how the meta settles, how surprising.

Argue the point, not the person.

The point is he is clearly biased, hence there is no point in trying to argue with him.