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Everything can be adjusted, as they did with the IHFAQ.
which largely only addressed issues around stratagems, not the glut of free special rules being handed out like a bad internet fandex.
When we're getting to the point that units are almost sporting double digits worth of free special rules before even getting into unit abilities, something has gone off the deep end with subfactions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 15:36:04
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Ishagu wrote: Removed - BrookM Let's wait and see how the meta pans out after a few months.
I can tell you right now that the Ultras are in no way over-powered, and the stats for the last month or so confirm that. Clearly a chapter with a special doctrine doesn't automatically cause problems.
Everything can be adjusted, as they did with the IHFAQ.
We can wait here as long as we ask, but many people will just stop playing the game, because they feel helpless against SMBS.
UM not managing to beat other SM don`t prove they are not overpowered, since alot of people don`t play SM.
godardc wrote: I'm amazed we can have so many different numbers and stats for 40k. We truly live in a wonderful era. However, I'm not used to all of this, what is point earned vs point denied ?
I imagine it has a lot with how much the SM players win by.
When they lose a game it is close (20 to 19). And when they win it is big (35 to 15). At no time to they lose big so the faction tends to score more highly, because of a strong book. Something like that anyway.
Ishagu wrote: Removed - BrookM Let's wait and see how the meta pans out after a few months.
I can tell you right now that the Ultras are in no way over-powered, and the stats for the last month or so confirm that. Clearly a chapter with a special doctrine doesn't automatically cause problems.
Everything can be adjusted, as they did with the IHFAQ.
We can wait here as long as we ask, but many people will just stop playing the game, because they feel helpless against SMBS.
UM not managing to beat other SM don`t prove they are not overpowered, since alot of people don`t play SM.
They don't feel helpless because they have no reason to.
People have been playing against UM for quite a while now, as i did. They are strong but nothing really OP.
I find that I can't show up to tournaments playing DA/SW/BA or DW without getting pitty looks and feeling out of place.
It's not only the rofl stompings I'd get (wulfen vs any marine list with a TFC, everything I have "real" marines have something that is better for cheaper) it's the additional feeling that it's not fair for me to show up and give away free wins against marine opponents. It does a disservice to the competitive integrity of the game, whatever marine player that gets matched up against me gets a free win (unless they are really, really bad).
My armies have never been powerhouses (some of the worst win % in the game) but I have a solid win % using them. I'm by no means a pro but I'm not terrible. I've played a tournament pretty much every month since 8th dropped, a GT and a major and I've lost all desire to play competitive with my armies.
It's embarrassing how bad my armies are against "real" marines and there is no relief anywhere in the near future (a couple of months at the earliest for CA 2019 and who knows how long until SW/DA/DW get any kind of help and what that help will be).
I can only think back to the first couple months of 8th when marines got the first dex and the rest of the armies were playing with one hand behind their backs (although the power discrepancy seems even more pronounced from where I'm sitting).
I could re-paint hundreds of hours of painting over thousands of points of marines or I can just sit it out. I think a lot of players are feeling like I am and I hope GW figures it out soon. I'd be interested to see tournament participation numbers over the next couple months (until other armies get something) vs where they were at last year.
Some of the more powerful builds out of the good dexes should still be okay albeit not as dominating (which is a good thing) but anything that wasn't good before is at such a disadvantage now I don't see the point in continuing to play at anything other than a narrative level (nids, fake marines, crons, ?)...
I was supposed to play in a team Tournament next week but due to what lists we had available and how it pairs up against the new marine meta we decided to not go. Not worth it to travel and just lose 1/4 games in each matchup.
We had custodes, knights, guard, ba, da and casual IF(who wouldnt be able to use their new supplement so it would suck).
It isnt only that we couldnt field a good marine army ourselves but that most of our lists also gets worse due to the meta changes. If people start playing around normal marines and build more for that armies like custodes, BA and DA gets relative worse as well.
bananathug wrote: I find that I can't show up to tournaments playing DA/SW/BA or DW without getting pitty looks and feeling out of place.
It's not only the rofl stompings I'd get (wulfen vs any marine list with a TFC, everything I have "real" marines have something that is better for cheaper) it's the additional feeling that it's not fair for me to show up and give away free wins against marine opponents. It does a disservice to the competitive integrity of the game, whatever marine player that gets matched up against me gets a free win (unless they are really, really bad).
My armies have never been powerhouses (some of the worst win % in the game) but I have a solid win % using them. I'm by no means a pro but I'm not terrible. I've played a tournament pretty much every month since 8th dropped, a GT and a major and I've lost all desire to play competitive with my armies.
It's embarrassing how bad my armies are against "real" marines and there is no relief anywhere in the near future (a couple of months at the earliest for CA 2019 and who knows how long until SW/DA/DW get any kind of help and what that help will be).
I can only think back to the first couple months of 8th when marines got the first dex and the rest of the armies were playing with one hand behind their backs (although the power discrepancy seems even more pronounced from where I'm sitting).
I could re-paint hundreds of hours of painting over thousands of points of marines or I can just sit it out. I think a lot of players are feeling like I am and I hope GW figures it out soon. I'd be interested to see tournament participation numbers over the next couple months (until other armies get something) vs where they were at last year.
Some of the more powerful builds out of the good dexes should still be okay albeit not as dominating (which is a good thing) but anything that wasn't good before is at such a disadvantage now I don't see the point in continuing to play at anything other than a narrative level (nids, fake marines, crons, ?)...
Sounds like the Angels need to be consolidated! You want consistency and updates? Get consolidated!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Smirrors wrote: They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.
So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.
Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?
Win ratio is only part of the story.
Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".
SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.
And if you look at marines excluding the busted ironhands they arn't a problem your using stats that a rarely broken down into subfactions and throwing every one under the bus.
It like saying SaimHan need nerfs becase they have a 2.27 to marines 2.37 first lost round avarage
Yet in subfaction saim han arnt the best subfaction for Asurani it beil tan with 74% win ratio
Even the poster boys of broken ironhands and imperial fists only achieved 71% and 73% respectively.
Nope.
Ignoring your bizarre attempted Saim Hann misdirection, universally Marines are better than other factions.
The numbers guys have broken down the individual subfactions and they are all over performing compared to others. This isn't just an IH issue. It's marine issue.
Smirrors wrote: They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.
So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.
Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?
Win ratio is only part of the story.
Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".
SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.
And if you look at marines excluding the busted ironhands they arn't a problem your using stats that a rarely broken down into subfactions and throwing every one under the bus.
It like saying SaimHan need nerfs becase they have a 2.27 to marines 2.37 first lost round avarage
Yet in subfaction saim han arnt the best subfaction for Asurani it beil tan with 74% win ratio
Even the poster boys of broken ironhands and imperial fists only achieved 71% and 73% respectively.
Nope.
Ignoring your bizarre attempted Saim Hann misdirection, universally Marines are better than other factions.
The numbers guys have broken down the individual subfactions and they are all over performing compared to others. This isn't just an IH issue. It's marine issue.
Ok ignore stats and go with your gut feeling.
The point was simple your including IronHands pre nerf data as proof that Ultramarines, Raven Guard etc are broken. Thats at best bad practice at worst intentionally misrepresent for an agenda.
Marines have been whipping boys for a year you might not like that they aren't that anymore.
While in typical GW classic style they over corrected some of the Supliment they have nerfed the worst offender and Imperial Fists loom likely to receive their much needed nerf you sound like some of the posters that won't be happy to marine's 2.0 is as powerful as codex 1.0 minus Gilliman aka unplayable trash.
Ultras are certainly strong. I feel like I am playing a top tier army like knights or DE/CWE when I play them now. It's not like ironhands pre nerf which would probably have felt something like 7.5 ynnari.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Smirrors wrote: They have been toned down enough. The already have an almost direct counter in IF which nerfs their vehicle lists now completely.
So everyone should start playing Space Marines ?
Cranking math and theories will not fix the issue with the insane SM damage.
To much shoots with good strength, with to much rerolls, with to good AP, to good in close combat, to many tricks.
Yea, SM armies will need alot of nerfs and point increases, but that will probably happened optimistically with the srping FAQ 2020.
Ignoring the now nerfed ironhands Ultramarines and ravenguard are both 50 and 52 % win ratios so please explain whats so dang broken and in need of nerfs in an army achieving a win ratio almost as closed to perfectly balanced as you can get and still performing worse than Drukari and Aldari and soup lists?
Win ratio is only part of the story.
Their TWIP, Points Earned vs Points Denied and most importantly, prevalence in the top 4s of all major tournaments consistently (55% last weekend) are the truly telling factors. The top 4 percentages in particular are way, waaay out of whack with what is considered "normal".
SM are a head above every other faction in the game as of now, almost directly because of their supplements.
And if you look at marines excluding the busted ironhands they arn't a problem your using stats that a rarely broken down into subfactions and throwing every one under the bus.
It like saying SaimHan need nerfs becase they have a 2.27 to marines 2.37 first lost round avarage
Yet in subfaction saim han arnt the best subfaction for Asurani it beil tan with 74% win ratio
Even the poster boys of broken ironhands and imperial fists only achieved 71% and 73% respectively.
Nope.
Ignoring your bizarre attempted Saim Hann misdirection, universally Marines are better than other factions.
The numbers guys have broken down the individual subfactions and they are all over performing compared to others. This isn't just an IH issue. It's marine issue.
Ok ignore stats and go with your gut feeling.
I am literally referencing stats.
The point was simple your including IronHands pre nerf data as proof that Ultramarines, Raven Guard etc are broken. Thats at best bad practice at worst intentionally misrepresent for an agenda.
Your point is wrong. As I have said - ALL the different marine sub factions are over performing
Marines have been whipping boys for a year you might not like that they aren't that anymore.
While in typical GW classic style they over corrected some of the Supliment they have nerfed the worst offender and Imperial Fists loom likely to receive their much needed nerf you sound like some of the posters that won't be happy to marine's 2.0 is as powerful as codex 1.0 minus Gilliman aka unplayable trash.
You sound like you like to argue ad hominems rather than actual points. Instead of assuming I hate marines for some insane reason perhaps you should take a look at yourself. Could it be that you are biased because you play marines? Could your desperate attempts to defend them stem from the fact that you play them?
I want marines to be balanced like all armies should be balanced. They shouldn't be broken good because they were awful for so long. That's ridiculous.
I don't think they are half as broken as people keep trying to make out they are
Ultramarines, RavenGuard, Whitescars (great player exploitable otherwise meh) Salamanders (needs proof rewritten to actually have functional strategums) dont look or feel broken from results.
Iron hand Broken
Imperial Fists Broken
I play Tau have played Knights and Marines though it's got so much FW it's more HH than 40k units probably now.
I want marines to not be the useless suckfest that resulted in me trying to give my buddies 200 points or more advantage to make it fair.
My non optomised Tau wiped my opponents marine 1.0 army in 2 turns more than once.
They were a joke against mono Knights while Guard went blow for blow for 5 turns.
I'm defending marines because trying to keep people playing when their army requires handicap points isn't balanced or good for the game. Most people complaining about marines play soup or Eldar of some form. It really sounds like sour grapes that another list architype exsist and they aren't achieving the same wins, placings they used to and want marines nerfed just so they can go back to placing better.
Ice_can wrote: I don't think they are half as broken as people keep trying to make out they are
Ultramarines, RavenGuard, Whitescars (great player exploitable otherwise meh) Salamanders (needs proof rewritten to actually have functional strategums) dont look or feel broken from results.
Iron hand Broken
Imperial Fists Broken
I play Tau have played Knights and Marines though it's got so much FW it's more HH than 40k units probably now.
I want marines to not be the useless suckfest that resulted in me trying to give my buddies 200 points or more advantage to make it fair.
My non optomised Tau wiped my opponents marine 1.0 army in 2 turns more than once.
They were a joke against mono Knights while Guard went blow for blow for 5 turns.
I'm defending marines because trying to keep people playing when their army requires handicap points isn't balanced or good for the game. Most people complaining about marines play soup or Eldar of some form. It really sounds like sour grapes that another list architype exsist and they aren't achieving the same wins, placings they used to and want marines nerfed just so they can go back to placing better.
Well, not everyone who has issue with powecreep are riding that same wave. I play Necrons, who are not very good right now, and fair poorly versus the new marines. Am I simply just looking for free wins, or is there more to it?
I'm defending marines because trying to keep people playing when their army requires handicap points isn't balanced or good for the game. Most people complaining about marines play soup or Eldar of some form. It really sounds like sour grapes that another list architype exsist and they aren't achieving the same wins, placings they used to and want marines nerfed just so they can go back to placing better.
I want to make sure people don't mistake my posts for whining or anything. AA seem to be in a good spot even if a little strong. I'm just looking forward to CA to sort some other pieces out.
Ice_can wrote: I don't think they are half as broken as people keep trying to make out they are
Ultramarines, RavenGuard, Whitescars (great player exploitable otherwise meh) Salamanders (needs proof rewritten to actually have functional strategums) dont look or feel broken from results.
Iron hand Broken
Imperial Fists Broken
I play Tau have played Knights and Marines though it's got so much FW it's more HH than 40k units probably now.
I want marines to not be the useless suckfest that resulted in me trying to give my buddies 200 points or more advantage to make it fair.
My non optomised Tau wiped my opponents marine 1.0 army in 2 turns more than once.
They were a joke against mono Knights while Guard went blow for blow for 5 turns.
I'm defending marines because trying to keep people playing when their army requires handicap points isn't balanced or good for the game. Most people complaining about marines play soup or Eldar of some form. It really sounds like sour grapes that another list architype exsist and they aren't achieving the same wins, placings they used to and want marines nerfed just so they can go back to placing better.
Well, not everyone who has issue with powecreep are riding that same wave. I play Necrons, who are not very good right now, and fair poorly versus the new marines. Am I simply just looking for free wins, or is there more to it?
Honestly GW still owes you a functional codex.
Tiny bright side QS does ironically make IF weaker against your vehicals.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 19:51:53
Ice_can wrote: I don't think they are half as broken as people keep trying to make out they are
Ultramarines, RavenGuard, Whitescars (great player exploitable otherwise meh) Salamanders (needs proof rewritten to actually have functional strategums) dont look or feel broken from results.
Iron hand Broken
Imperial Fists Broken
I play Tau have played Knights and Marines though it's got so much FW it's more HH than 40k units probably now.
I want marines to not be the useless suckfest that resulted in me trying to give my buddies 200 points or more advantage to make it fair.
My non optomised Tau wiped my opponents marine 1.0 army in 2 turns more than once.
They were a joke against mono Knights while Guard went blow for blow for 5 turns.
I'm defending marines because trying to keep people playing when their army requires handicap points isn't balanced or good for the game. Most people complaining about marines play soup or Eldar of some form. It really sounds like sour grapes that another list architype exsist and they aren't achieving the same wins, placings they used to and want marines nerfed just so they can go back to placing better.
Well, not everyone who has issue with powecreep are riding that same wave. I play Necrons, who are not very good right now, and fair poorly versus the new marines. Am I simply just looking for free wins, or is there more to it?
Honestly GW still owes you a functional codex.
Tiny bright side QS does ironically make IF weaker against your vehicals.
No it doesn't really. Assault cannons is GG for DDA. 4+ to wound and they get a 6+ save followed by a 5+(essentially). You are getting 100% more damage for them to get a 16% reduction in failure of QS save. I think you are still better off with autocannons too. Suppressors might be the perfect weapon for taking them down actaully. wound on 3's and they get a 4+ save only (from QS) in you are in dev doctrine.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 20:20:23
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Ultras are certainly strong. I feel like I am playing a top tier army like knights or DE/CWE when I play them now. It's not like ironhands pre nerf which would probably have felt something like 7.5 ynnari.
Well well well... Never thought this day would come.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 22:36:00
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
bananathug wrote: I find that I can't show up to tournaments playing DA/SW/BA or DW without getting pitty looks and feeling out of place.
It's not only the rofl stompings I'd get (wulfen vs any marine list with a TFC, everything I have "real" marines have something that is better for cheaper) it's the additional feeling that it's not fair for me to show up and give away free wins against marine opponents. It does a disservice to the competitive integrity of the game, whatever marine player that gets matched up against me gets a free win (unless they are really, really bad).
My armies have never been powerhouses (some of the worst win % in the game) but I have a solid win % using them. I'm by no means a pro but I'm not terrible. I've played a tournament pretty much every month since 8th dropped, a GT and a major and I've lost all desire to play competitive with my armies.
It's embarrassing how bad my armies are against "real" marines and there is no relief anywhere in the near future (a couple of months at the earliest for CA 2019 and who knows how long until SW/DA/DW get any kind of help and what that help will be).
I can only think back to the first couple months of 8th when marines got the first dex and the rest of the armies were playing with one hand behind their backs (although the power discrepancy seems even more pronounced from where I'm sitting).
I could re-paint hundreds of hours of painting over thousands of points of marines or I can just sit it out. I think a lot of players are feeling like I am and I hope GW figures it out soon. I'd be interested to see tournament participation numbers over the next couple months (until other armies get something) vs where they were at last year.
Some of the more powerful builds out of the good dexes should still be okay albeit not as dominating (which is a good thing) but anything that wasn't good before is at such a disadvantage now I don't see the point in continuing to play at anything other than a narrative level (nids, fake marines, crons, ?)...
well DA/SW/BA where marine 'dexs and where drasticly underpowered just like vanilla marines before their dex. if GW refused to update marines for fear of making them weaker none of these armeis would get any needed buffs. a lotta the rumors suggest marine releases are being front loaded in the PA stuff so with any luck BAs,DAs and SWs will be brought up to par.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Eldar- 4436 pts
