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Apple fox wrote:
I had wonder recently if the 8th ediition rules are so basic, that is getting in the way of the game itself a lot. They have a lot of ideas but that the game just cannot handle them.

Sorta putting themselves into a worse position that where in even before hand. Honestly i think 40k just needs a rewrite and a sitdown on where they want things to go, and what they want to achieve.
Some of there rules make the units a bit of a joke, and space marines themselves are rather bland due to all the supermen level ups they get.

Say it with me, “STREEEEAAAMMLINED”.

 Smirrors wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
..
Take the Infiltrators, for a start. They can deploy within 9 inches of the enemy... and then they can move... and then they can charge. Until now, in the current edition, no infiltrator-type units could reliably get a successful charge after deploying or deep-striking within 9 inches of the enemy.
.

Couldnt scouts do this whole edition? Am I missing something?

The only marine army that can do what your say more effectively is Ravenguard.

All other marine armies dont play that style typically although they can be built to do it but it may not be that effective.

All marines now have the invictor warsuit and a few more phobos units. And by making everything better than it used to be with better tactics, doctrines and stratagems you dont have to be ravenguard to infiltrate a sizable and threatening force.

200pts of scouts isnt that bad but add 3 133pt warsuits(that shoot like a predator and hits harder than a dreadnought and deploy like a scout yet are cheaper than a pred?!) with a phobos Librarian and infiltrator/incursors and now its half the army deploying 9" from your lines instead of 24"

Pancakey 781494 10602429 wrote:
Say it with me, “STREEEEAAAMMLINED”.

The problem is that GW thinks that streamlining one faction to two rules, out of which one is always shot at +3 and the other if you kill something or something dies shot again, is equal to someone rolling -1 D6 on morale and +1Ld of they own.

I understand that stuff never is equal, that something has to be just better. But the gap between w40k normal and bad is so big, some armies may as well not be playing the same game.

I mean lets say WB vs any of the new marines. Both updated to 8.5ed , but one feels as if it was ment for something that maybe have been good in the past, or at least I hope it was good in the past, and the other is a powerhouse in its 2 cycle of hormons.

 Nym wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

This is basically how I felt when my opponent told me that each of his 37pts Aggressors would now fire 19 shots... after having advanced. At AP-1. For 0 CP. Next turn they were charging me with 4 S8 AP-3 DD3 attacks each.

In my Orks codex, there is a unit called "Meganobz" that costs 35pts a model for 4 shots at BS5+, AP0. And they have 3 S10 AP-3 DD3 attacks.

WTF is wrong with you GW ?

The thing is GW overvaluates 2+ saves. Terminators suffer for the same reason. There are just too many AP-3 or better weapons handed out and mortal wounds flying left right and center that the 2+ save isn't really all that special. Yet you pay through your nose for it.

Aggressors are 3+ so they're fine, obviously.

Klickor 781494 10602451 wrote:
200pts of scouts isnt that bad but add 3 133pt warsuits(that shoot like a predator and hits harder than a dreadnought and deploy like a scout yet are cheaper than a pred?!) with a phobos Librarian and infiltrator/incursors and now its half the army deploying 9" from your lines instead of 24"

yep. and the rest is 3 units of devastators in pods along side 2 HQs and a unit of sterguard, and you can get almost tabled turn 1. Very negative thing to expiriance, but at least the game is short.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weazel wrote:


The thing is GW overvaluates 2+ saves. Terminators suffer for the same reason. There are just too many AP-3 or better weapons handed out and mortal wounds flying left right and center that the 2+ save isn't really all that special. Yet you pay through your nose for it.

Aggressors are 3+ so they're fine, obviously.

Maybe termintors should have a rule that says, never lower save then +3, and the Stormshield ends up doing something else. Like re-roll saves or something.

Karol wrote:

Klickor 781494 10602451 wrote:
200pts of scouts isnt that bad but add 3 133pt warsuits(that shoot like a predator and hits harder than a dreadnought and deploy like a scout yet are cheaper than a pred?!) with a phobos Librarian and infiltrator/incursors and now its half the army deploying 9" from your lines instead of 24"

yep. and the rest is 3 units of devastators in pods along side 2 HQs and a unit of sterguard, and you can get almost tabled turn 1. Very negative thing to expiriance, but at least the game is short.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weazel wrote:


The thing is GW overvaluates 2+ saves. Terminators suffer for the same reason. There are just too many AP-3 or better weapons handed out and mortal wounds flying left right and center that the 2+ save isn't really all that special. Yet you pay through your nose for it.

Aggressors are 3+ so they're fine, obviously.

Maybe termintors should have a rule that says, never lower save then +3, and the Stormshield ends up doing something else. Like re-roll saves or something.

Well not sure if I understood you correctly, always having at least 3+ save would be just bonkers. Storm Shields are fine for just that. And they already have 5++ so -3 is the worst that can affect them. However Meganobz have no invuln outside of Deffskulls Klan trait so they're really fethed over. I wouldn't mind ditching the usesless shooting for some sort of Orky shield that gave them 4++ or even 5++.

Well not sure if I understood you correctly, always having at least 3+ save would be just bonkers

why? the is already about mulit shot, bonus to D weapons. If the only counter to termintors was a 45pts lascannon+model carrying it, then yeah termintors would be really good. But in a world where units roll 100+shots and have options to upgrade the damage on their weapons, view relics, buffs or stratagems, I don't think it is too over the top.
Storm shields are a horrible pice of equipment, because every type of terminator model that can have them is automaticly bad, because +5 inv doesn't save a darn thing for models that cost 40-60pts.

The issue as I see it... GW needs to learn restraint. The rules writers want to give every single unit 2, 3, 4... 7 'cool' abilities to make them 'interesting'. They need to hold back. Maybe keep it to one, maybe two abilities and leave it at that.

 bullyboy wrote:

That picture shows nothing. It has bikes, dreadnoughts, etc....where Centurions would fit. You obviously missed the part of my post where I mentioned "my RG force" where they don't fit. Are you going to tell me that Centurions are stealthy like vanguard units? I'm sure that those Centurions didn't "infiltrate" into that battle....which is what is happening on the tabletop.

This is where the term "infiltrate" needs to be really understood.

It's not just "stealthy movement into the area". That's a big component of it certainly, but there's nothing suggesting that they did this in the dead of night and absolutely quietly. It wasn't uncommon for, in the Real World(tm), attacks to be launched specifically to allow for infiltration and embedding of heavier assets into an area so that they can be used when needed. There's even some mention of stuff like that with the 6th Company(which use a large amount of bikes) for the Raven Guard.

Karol wrote:

Well not sure if I understood you correctly, always having at least 3+ save would be just bonkers

why? the is already about mulit shot, bonus to D weapons. If the only counter to termintors was a 45pts lascannon+model carrying it, then yeah termintors would be really good. But in a world where units roll 100+shots and have options to upgrade the damage on their weapons, view relics, buffs or stratagems, I don't think it is too over the top.
Storm shields are a horrible pice of equipment, because every type of terminator model that can have them is automaticly bad, because +5 inv doesn't save a darn thing for models that cost 40-60pts.

Yeah, I'm with Karol here. When you're handing out 12 S5 AP-2 shots that ignore move and shoot heavy to a fething razorback, things have gotten wack.

Looks to me like TC is crying about thematic rules.

I don't particularly like the fact that Guardsmen can move faster across the board than the superhuman Astartes because someone yells at them.

The game is full of special rules and the give armies flavour. Astartes are elite, and should have more abilities to offset the low model count nature of the army.

 Ishagu wrote:
Looks to me like TC is crying about thematic rules.

I don't particularly like the fact that Guardsmen can move faster across the board than the superhuman Astartes because someone yells at them.

The game is full of special rules and the give armies flavour. Astartes are elite, and should have more abilities to offset the low model count nature of the army.

I'll take my massive buffs to Custodes now please.

 Ishagu wrote:
Looks to me like TC is crying about thematic rules.

I don't particularly like the fact that Guardsmen can move faster across the board than the superhuman Astartes because someone yells at them.

The game is full of special rules and the give armies flavour. Astartes are elite, and should have more abilities to offset the low model count nature of the army.

They do.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Looks to me like TC is crying about thematic rules.

I don't particularly like the fact that Guardsmen can move faster across the board than the superhuman Astartes because someone yells at them.

The game is full of special rules and the give armies flavour. Astartes are elite, and should have more abilities to offset the low model count nature of the army.

I'll take my massive buffs to Custodes now please.

*Sounds of Draigo crying in the warp*

 Ishagu wrote:
Looks to me like TC is crying about thematic rules.

I don't particularly like the fact that Guardsmen can move faster across the board than the superhuman Astartes because someone yells at them.

The game is full of special rules and the give armies flavour. Astartes are elite, and should have more abilities to offset the low model count nature of the army.

Well they must have missed some of the marines rules when they were writing some books though. Ultramarines have like a whole page of extra rules to all of their units, and two pages of stratagems and a bucket of special heroes, while someone playing lets say WB gets one rule, that other armies get for free.

I think it would be a lot easier to stomach the marine supplements if we didn't have to hear about marines literally constantly. Chaos getting redone? LOOK AT THESE NEW PRIMARIS! Eldar approaching civil war in the new campaigns books? NEW MARINE SUPPLEMENTS GET THEM WHILE THEY ARE BROKEN. Admech finally getting a plastic transport? DON'T WORRY YOU CAN KILL IT WITH THE BRAND NEW PRIMARIS TANK. When marines get something we get to hear about it for months on end. When another army gets something they spit it out in 2 weeks tops.

As for why marines deserve special treatment? Squeaky wheel gets the grease and boy are there a lot of 3+ wheels. Before the supplements you could count on multiple "marines need a buff" threads being active at any given time and that was before you counted all the ones that got derailed on how HORRIBLY UNPLAYABLE marines were.

Why is there an uproar over infiltrators but not any GSC units? I might be missing something but I'm pretty sure GSC infiltrates way better than marines.

Infiltrators are terrible dude...Invictor dread...now that is scary.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Why is there an uproar over infiltrators but not any GSC units? I might be missing something but I'm pretty sure GSC infiltrates way better than marines.

It’s not even in the same ball park, the GSC have a way better selection of infiltration/burrowing units and they have some really nasty infiltration/burrowing units.

Yeah, but they're not the Great Satan, so they don't count.

Tend to agree with the OP. However this started imo with Knights.
Their abilities to ignore move/heavy weapon penalties, fall back/shoot even though not a flyer, take relics/upgrades as vehicles and have stratagems where they can move/advance, charge to me was always a slippery slope.....

Karol wrote:

Klickor 781494 10602451 wrote:
200pts of scouts isnt that bad but add 3 133pt warsuits(that shoot like a predator and hits harder than a dreadnought and deploy like a scout yet are cheaper than a pred?!) with a phobos Librarian and infiltrator/incursors and now its half the army deploying 9" from your lines instead of 24"

yep. and the rest is 3 units of devastators in pods along side 2 HQs and a unit of sterguard, and you can get almost tabled turn 1. Very negative thing to expiriance, but at least the game is short.

Marines have been in that boat most of 8th. "You go first, I don't have enough left to bother with my first turn. I go first, then you go, then I don't have enough left to bother with my second turn." The only thing that's changed is that Marines are now one of the armies that can hit hard enough to end a game on turn one.

That's not a problem with Marines, that's a problem with 40k in general. The system is so stupidly lethal that if you have two armies from non-garbage factions put together by competent players then the dice roll to decide who goes first generally decides the game unless you have so much terrain on the table you can't see each other's deployment zones.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Why is there an uproar over infiltrators but not any GSC units? I might be missing something but I'm pretty sure GSC infiltrates way better than marines.

It’s not even in the same ball park, the GSC have a way better selection of infiltration/burrowing units and they have some really nasty infiltration/burrowing units.

That's kinda my point. GSC to my knowledge is entirely based on getting into combat turn 1. Marine infiltrate abilities set up the model 9" from enemy deployment zone. GSC: "yeah you can put most of your army in tunnels, DS turn 1, but also place down these tokens so you don't have to commit to where you place your units" .

While his argument is kinda valid, infiltrators are on the table ready to be shot, plus they really only get to melee turn one if you put things on your line to be charged turn one. GSC you move in position to shoot a blip and it could be a poor target to shoot or it could straight up be a false blip.

Point is GSC infiltrates circles around marines and are awesome!

Isn't this what they've done for every release? This new race has an ability that NO ONE ELSE HAS! GSC's had a few. Orks had a few, etc.

Then after 2-3 months after the purchase firestorm dies down, they cry foul and nerf the hell out of them.

It's like that internet meme where the guy shoots the other guy in the chair, and then blames something not related....

GW creates the problem to sell units, then nerfs the problem to create balance, while releasing the next super broken thing. Look at the spike in IH purchases.....or before that Knight purchases....

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Isn't this what they've done for every release? This new race has an ability that NO ONE ELSE HAS! GSC's had a few. Orks had a few, etc.

Then after 2-3 months after the purchase firestorm dies down, they cry foul and nerf the hell out of them.

It's like that internet meme where the guy shoots the other guy in the chair, and then blames something not related....

GW creates the problem to sell units, then nerfs the problem to create balance, while releasing the next super broken thing. Look at the spike in IH purchases.....or before that Knight purchases....

Personally I think all armies should have something unique. In my opinion GSC are the most unique army in the game. I guess being the last codex out really paid off(well barring sisters I suppose)

 Argive wrote:
The supplements show an inherent problem with costing ifentical unit across 6 different factions...

Is an IH vehicle (any vehicle really) worth the same as a vanilla vehicle?

This is an easy example but it can be applied to kraken vs non kraken genestealers, old ynnari everything vs cwe vanilla everything and the list goes on.


Points dont fix everything. I am a big prononent of that. But with no attempt at internal balance its one of the things that should be adressed.

This is mostly an issue with the way GW has sold subfactions as their own faction. If instead of insisting on each chapter being its own faction, GW had a list of "Detachment Tactics" for marines that were based on but not tied to Chapters, it wouldn't be an issue. Instead of building an Iron Hands detachment you gave your detachment the "Armored Company" Tactics, it would all work fine. You'd arrange your army into 3 detachments with your Tacticals being in the "Ground Forces" group, the Vanguards charging with the "Emperor's Fury" tactics, and the vehicles in you Armored Company. People would think its brilliant, but lose their minds if you make a force divided into Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Iron Hands. Rules wise, its exactly the same, but we've been sold the idea as if these same grey models are somehow different factions.

Apple fox wrote:
I had wonder recently if the 8th ediition rules are so basic, that is getting in the way of the game itself a lot. They have a lot of ideas but that the game just cannot handle them.

Sorta putting themselves into a worse position that where in even before hand. Honestly i think 40k just needs a rewrite and a sitdown on where they want things to go, and what they want to achieve.
Some of there rules make the units a bit of a joke, and space marines themselves are rather bland due to all the supermen level ups they get.

Nope. The problem is the giant pile of special snowflake rules, and that each individual thing increasingly 'needs' four or five of the bloody things, to the point that the potential interactions are ridiculous. And then you add traits, stratagems and artifacts which are all unique special snowflakes themselves (outside the basic underpowered ones in the main book- really, one CP for a reroll, when rerolls are tossed out for free by whole swaths of special snowflake rules? Insanity.)

The more interactions you have, the more likely you are to run into problem areas. So each SM unit has 3-4 rules, each chapter has two, plus combat doctrines, plus special chapter doctrines plus ~30 strategems plus 20(?) more chapter strategems, 18(?) psychic powers, 24? warlord traits, 12 artifacts plus 6 more artifacts... you're running into a basic proliferation by multiplication that yields tens of thousands possible combinations. That isn't sane or good for the game.

I always thought the REAL rule behind 9" away and everything else is "thou shalt not get flamer weapon shooting on turn one or after deep strike."

By ensuring units that CAN get closer cannot have a flamer weapon all is well according to GW.

 fraser1191 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Why is there an uproar over infiltrators but not any GSC units? I might be missing something but I'm pretty sure GSC infiltrates way better than marines.

It’s not even in the same ball park, the GSC have a way better selection of infiltration/burrowing units and they have some really nasty infiltration/burrowing units.

That's kinda my point. GSC to my knowledge is entirely based on getting into combat turn 1. Marine infiltrate abilities set up the model 9" from enemy deployment zone. GSC: "yeah you can put most of your army in tunnels, DS turn 1, but also place down these tokens so you don't have to commit to where you place your units" .

While his argument is kinda valid, infiltrators are on the table ready to be shot, plus they really only get to melee turn one if you put things on your line to be charged turn one. GSC you move in position to shoot a blip and it could be a poor target to shoot or it could straight up be a false blip.

Point is GSC infiltrates circles around marines and are awesome!

So...important question...have you ever played against GSC?

Because a couple things:

1) They cannot deep strike turn 1. They get Regular, The Same As Everybody But Marines deep strike. They have 1 stratagem for 2CP that enables them to DS 3" away (and shoot, but not charge) and 1 stratagem for 3CP that enables them to move 1d6" closer than 9". Imagine spending 3CP to move your unit 1", and still having only a 36% chance of getting into combat after that. Yeah lol, GSC sure out-infiltrate marines XDDDDDDD.

2) This means, by tactical reserves, 1/2 of their army has to be deployed on the board. They do get the blips ability for this. But Marines in drop pods and the new marine infiltrate rule both DO NOT COUNT towards the 1/2 of your army that is in deep strike AND they come in turn 1.

3) to add insult to fething injury, marine Infiltrators literally have an ability that cockblocks the ever loving feth out of GSC - no deep strike within 12" of those fethers!

A game with GSC vs IH numarines goes a bit like this:

-GSC deploys half their army on the table, generally gakky chaff units.

-The marine player plops all his gak onto the board, infiltrators and drop pod guys and invictus suits show right the feth up turn 1, killing most of the garbage chaff the GSC player puts down.

-The GSC player deep strikes on turn 2, with marines on every single objective, and has to work around giant 12" nope bubbles around each unit of infiltrators. MAYBE if he spends 3CP he gets to send one unit into 5+ overwatch - that is, if he doesn't roll so low that the repulsor fields push him beyond a 12" charge range anyway, lol.

-The marine player then goes into tactical doctrine and shreds all the 7PPM T3 5+ guardsman bodies that are the GSC deep strikers with AP-1 boltgun fire.

It's pretty much like a 5th ed game of Daemons vs GK at this point. I saw this game the last week I went to my 40k club, and all I could think of was "oh look, they brought back Warp Quake".

Voss wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I had wonder recently if the 8th ediition rules are so basic, that is getting in the way of the game itself a lot. They have a lot of ideas but that the game just cannot handle them.

Sorta putting themselves into a worse position that where in even before hand. Honestly i think 40k just needs a rewrite and a sitdown on where they want things to go, and what they want to achieve.
Some of there rules make the units a bit of a joke, and space marines themselves are rather bland due to all the supermen level ups they get.

Nope. The problem is the giant pile of special snowflake rules, and that each individual thing increasingly 'needs' four or five of the bloody things, to the point that the potential interactions are ridiculous. And then you add traits, stratagems and artifacts which are all unique special snowflakes themselves (outside the basic underpowered ones in the main book- really, one CP for a reroll, when rerolls are tossed out for free by whole swaths of special snowflake rules? Insanity.)

The more interactions you have, the more likely you are to run into problem areas. So each SM unit has 3-4 rules, each chapter has two, plus combat doctrines, plus special chapter doctrines plus ~30 strategems plus 20(?) more chapter strategems, 18(?) psychic powers, 24? warlord traits, 12 artifacts plus 6 more artifacts... you're running into a basic proliferation by multiplication that yields tens of thousands possible combinations. That isn't sane or good for the game.

That is a good summery of what I was sorta getting at, they try to simplify the game. But I think it’s more complicated than it’s every been, but still so shallow.
Everything kinda just happens, and there is only so much thought I can put into it for results when a random dice can decide if I have a chance this game or not.
And even now I think the community sort of looks down on thinking about the game to hard at times, don’t break it or it’s your fault. It’s like a game that encourage netlisting just so you do not end up on the wrong side of the coin. All why the devs think that sort of thing is bad.