Switch Theme:

A wider problem with the new Marines...  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 DominayTrix wrote:
I think it would be a lot easier to stomach the marine supplements if we didn't have to hear about marines literally constantly. Chaos getting redone? LOOK AT THESE NEW PRIMARIS! Eldar approaching civil war in the new campaigns books? NEW MARINE SUPPLEMENTS GET THEM WHILE THEY ARE BROKEN. Admech finally getting a plastic transport? DON'T WORRY YOU CAN KILL IT WITH THE BRAND NEW PRIMARIS TANK. When marines get something we get to hear about it for months on end. When another army gets something they spit it out in 2 weeks tops.

As for why marines deserve special treatment? Squeaky wheel gets the grease and boy are there a lot of 3+ wheels. Before the supplements you could count on multiple "marines need a buff" threads being active at any given time and that was before you counted all the ones that got derailed on how HORRIBLY UNPLAYABLE marines were.


err we only saw a bit about primaris when shadowspear came out, which saw new primaris and chaos. When Chaos got their release it was all about chaos. Admech got their transport alongside the executioner but I don't recall GW ever marketing the executioner as a "admech tank killer" (they where marketed as "need more heavy firepower for apocylpse? check these out!")
the eldar thing was admittingly annoying (made worse by the primaris characters getting leaked as well) And I wish GW had moved a bit faster with the Marine release to avoid the issue.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Weazel wrote:
 Nym wrote:
 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I had to ask for the supplement to read the rules myself as some of the stuff in there was honestly sounding like a fan-rulebook.

This is basically how I felt when my opponent told me that each of his 37pts Aggressors would now fire 19 shots... after having advanced. At AP-1. For 0 CP. Next turn they were charging me with 4 S8 AP-3 DD3 attacks each.

In my Orks codex, there is a unit called "Meganobz" that costs 35pts a model for 4 shots at BS5+, AP0. And they have 3 S10 AP-3 DD3 attacks.

WTF is wrong with you GW ?


The thing is GW overvaluates 2+ saves. Terminators suffer for the same reason. There are just too many AP-3 or better weapons handed out and mortal wounds flying left right and center that the 2+ save isn't really all that special. Yet you pay through your nose for it.

Aggressors are 3+ so they're fine, obviously.

Cries in fellblade.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




The supplements are what happens when you're obsessed with having simple core rules.

You want to add more complexity and variety to your game, so it has to come from a supermarket-style assault on your senses with endless choice and combinations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/19 06:03:29


 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






-Guardsman- wrote:
...is that they seem to break unwritten limitations that all 8E armies had until now. It's as if the entire ruleset of 8th Edition is bending for them, and for no one else.

Take the Infiltrators, for a start. They can deploy within 9 inches of the enemy... and then they can move... and then they can charge. Until now, in the current edition, no infiltrator-type units could reliably get a successful charge after deploying or deep-striking within 9 inches of the enemy. For example, the Craftworlds/Drukhari stratagem "Fire and Fade", which lets you move after shooting, has a specific rule that disallows charging after making this move. The designers of the game clearly intended to make it possible to charge from deep strike, but far too unlikely to rely upon it as part of your battle plan, even with stratagems. But Marine Infiltrators change that. They are, to my knowledge, the only unit in the game that can move and charge after being set up 9 inches away from the enemy.

Other examples: the Impulsor lets models move out of the vehicle and shoot after the vehicle has moved, and Drop Pods can deep strike on turn 1 despite the blanket "no deep strike on turn 1" rule. Again, Marines are given things that no one used to have in 8th Edition, even armies that specialize in dirty tricks (such as Eldar and Tau). I feel like this is a slippery slope that may considerably worsen the game's imbalance.

In part, I blame the loss of USR's for this. If units stuck as closely as possible to a score of USR's, it would make it easier to either set up clear and universal limitations ("A unit that moves after deep-striking cannot charge this round. No exceptions!") or, if needed, give a blanket update to a whole bunch of units by errata-ing the USR ("All deep-striking units are now allowed to both move and charge"). No more special snowflake units.

.

Scouts can T1 charge. Drop Pods have a single storm bolter, all they do is give a unit deep strike, when other factions get the same for 1 CP the Drop Pod can't be more than at the very most 45 pts and still ever be worth taking. Trygons can transport units, but they're also Monsters with actual attacks of their own to attach that rule to, not just a hunk of plastic that can hold an objective and be used as a springboard for charging units to move around the board. Drop Pods did not break the meta, we might see the odd Drop Pod with Salamanders successors, but I don't believe in Drop Pod lists, at the end of the day it's too many pts tied into getting into range that are more of a liability after they come down. Drop Pods desperately needed this rule which I might add they've had in previous editions as well.

The Impulsor's rules might represent specialized tactics done by the Primaris to quickly and effectively disembark and fire, but I do think it's a silly rule for just one vehicle to have, on the other hand it's kind of silly for Drukhari transports to allow people inside to fire out but for Necrons not to be able to. Know what? I love the fact I can't sit inside my Ghost Arks and shoot, it doesn't bring the right feel and maybe Impulsors bring the right feel to Primaris, but would bring the wrong feel to Orks, Drukhari and Necrons. Another possibility is that they're testing out rules to give to other factions, it might be a thing all open-topped datasheets get 2-4 years from now, I can't think of any special rules that turned into rulebook rules that started out this way but I'm sure they existed if not currently exist.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/19 07:38:47


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Considering that the DROP pod also breaks the general 50%/50% restraint rule...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that the DROP pod also breaks the general 50%/50% restraint rule...

What's the problem with it breaking that rule?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ishagu wrote:
How can anyone blame the loss of USRs for anything when USRs are what created the invincible death starts of 7th edition?

People have terrible memories lol


I didn't know USRs wrote the rules ? They are clever creatures it seems.

GW game designers made those terrible invincible deathstars. They let them remain for long periods of time because they were too awful to FAQ them away in any reasonable quick manner. As well their awful alliance system let super best friends IoM groups all roll together.

USRs had nothing to do with that unless you are claiming they made the rules, didn't fix them, and then wrote allies as well.

As well if you really think these bespoke rules are better than USRs, that in itself is kind of funny. If every army there about has re rolls of 1, and calls it a different fluffy name, does it really end up being any different ? If anything USRs would clear up a good deal of bloat, allow everyone to mostly know what each others units do more easily. Those are all good things in my book.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that the DROP pod also breaks the general 50%/50% restraint rule...

What's the problem with it breaking that rule?


That marines now can nearly null deploy.
OR are we forgetting how annoying that was?

No, equal long pikes for everyone is something that would solve a lot of issue but alas .

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that the DROP pod also breaks the general 50%/50% restraint rule...

What's the problem with it breaking that rule?


That marines now can nearly null deploy.
OR are we forgetting how annoying that was?

No, equal long pikes for everyone is something that would solve a lot of issue but alas .

GSC can null deploy as well can't they? Good terrain essentially allows null deploy against armies without ignores LOS shooting. I'll see a problem when Drop Pods see tournament success, have they? You can just do your movement and end your turn if your opponent null deploys, I really don't see the problem. Null deploy and T1 DS was OP for Drukhari and Craftworlds, I don't believe it was ever a SM problem that they Drop Podded T1 and could null-deploy.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that the DROP pod also breaks the general 50%/50% restraint rule...

What's the problem with it breaking that rule?


That marines now can nearly null deploy.
OR are we forgetting how annoying that was?

No, equal long pikes for everyone is something that would solve a lot of issue but alas .

GSC can null deploy as well can't they? Good terrain essentially allows null deploy against armies without ignores LOS shooting. I'll see a problem when Drop Pods see tournament success, have they? You can just do your movement and end your turn if your opponent null deploys, I really don't see the problem. Null deploy and T1 DS was OP for Drukhari and Craftworlds, I don't believe it was ever a SM problem that they Drop Podded T1 and could null-deploy.


GSC precicesly got denied that ability.
That's the issue.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that the DROP pod also breaks the general 50%/50% restraint rule...

What's the problem with it breaking that rule?


That marines now can nearly null deploy.
OR are we forgetting how annoying that was?

No, equal long pikes for everyone is something that would solve a lot of issue but alas .

GSC can null deploy as well can't they? Good terrain essentially allows null deploy against armies without ignores LOS shooting. I'll see a problem when Drop Pods see tournament success, have they? You can just do your movement and end your turn if your opponent null deploys, I really don't see the problem. Null deploy and T1 DS was OP for Drukhari and Craftworlds, I don't believe it was ever a SM problem that they Drop Podded T1 and could null-deploy.


GSC precicesly got denied that ability.
That's the issue.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that. If I'm not mistaken the rules on null deployment as far as the Drop Pods isn't fully settled on whether you just need 50% army in Drop Pods or 100% army in Drop Pods to null deploy if it's meant to be the second one I don't really see the issue as you're paying 100s of pts to null-deploy and not just a batch of CP. Have you actually played against a null-deploy Marine army or seen it being player or heard of it being played or is it just something you oppose because it created issues for other factions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/19 09:57:13


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that the DROP pod also breaks the general 50%/50% restraint rule...

What's the problem with it breaking that rule?


That marines now can nearly null deploy.
OR are we forgetting how annoying that was?

No, equal long pikes for everyone is something that would solve a lot of issue but alas .

GSC can null deploy as well can't they? Good terrain essentially allows null deploy against armies without ignores LOS shooting. I'll see a problem when Drop Pods see tournament success, have they? You can just do your movement and end your turn if your opponent null deploys, I really don't see the problem. Null deploy and T1 DS was OP for Drukhari and Craftworlds, I don't believe it was ever a SM problem that they Drop Podded T1 and could null-deploy.


GSC precicesly got denied that ability.
That's the issue.

Fair point, I'd forgotten about that. If I'm not mistaken the rules on null deployment as far as the Drop Pods isn't fully settled on whether you just need 50% army in Drop Pods or 100% army in Drop Pods to null deploy if it's meant to be the second one I don't really see the issue as you're paying 100s of pts to null-deploy and not just a batch of CP. Have you actually played against a null-deploy Marine army or seen it being player or heard of it being played or is it just something you oppose because it created issues for other factions?


Yes i have seen it and was on the reciving end aswell.
Playing a mass model army is annoying especially when i need to get into melee because the new Bolters just shred what little armor i have on my average unit.

Additionally: the FAQ to my knowledge is out due to beeing for Codex 2.0 and i find it questionable that GSC got this denied from them but marines all off a sudden are no issue supposedly.
Especially considering the reason stated to deny such Alpha strike possibilities and Null deployment due to "beeing not fun" which also lead to a lot of nerfs for such stratagems.

So yes i take issue with it because it is inconsitent, annoying as feth and depending on your army absurd and not really able to work around.
And whilest it isn't top tier it is still questionable due to the inconsistency.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/19 10:10:05


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Drukhari break the rules by shooting out of their transports. Khorne Berzerkers break the game by having a 3CP stratagem stapled on them for free. Warptime* and the Swarmlord lets a unit get a free extra movement phase. Bloodletters get a 97%+ chance to make a charge from Deepstrike. Where are the dedicated threads complaining about these?

The difference, I posit, between these and Drop Pods is that Drop Pods belong to Marines, and as we all know the uninspiring, overhyped, boring, baby-eating, candy-stealing Marines shouldn't be allowed good things ever or they're completely broken (see Leviathan Dreadnought for another example of this mentality). Neither the examples above nor the Drop Pod break the game, but the edgy counter-culture revolts against Space Marines because they're "the man".

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

*And no, this doesn't mean I'm saying Chaos is perfectly fine and doesn't need a bunch of changes.

**Note that I'm talking about rules here, not model releases.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Drukhari break the rules by shooting out of their transports. Khorne Berzerkers break the game by having a 3CP stratagem stapled on them for free. Warptime* and the Swarmlord lets a unit get a free extra movement phase. Bloodletters get a 97%+ chance to make a charge from Deepstrike. Where are the dedicated threads complaining about these?

The difference, I posit, between these and Drop Pods is that Drop Pods belong to Marines, and as we all know the uninspiring, overhyped, boring, baby-eating, candy-stealing Marines shouldn't be allowed good things ever or they're completely broken (see Leviathan Dreadnought for another example of this mentality). Neither the examples above nor the Drop Pod break the game, but the edgy counter-culture revolts against Space Marines because they're "the man".

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

*And no, this doesn't mean I'm saying Chaos is perfectly fine and doesn't need a bunch of changes.

**Note that I'm talking about rules here, not model releases.


I agree with this. It's fine for factions to have fancy stuff that other factions dont get. Imo that's a good thing.

Balance is the key, not that's not the same thing as " every army can do the same thing/has the same mechanics."

The problem is more that Marines have a TON of units, and now a ton of sub-faction rules. In order to differenntiate them they wind up with more and more stacking pecial rules. That's currently the issue, imo.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Drukhari break the rules by shooting out of their transports. Khorne Berzerkers break the game by having a 3CP stratagem stapled on them for free. Warptime* and the Swarmlord lets a unit get a free extra movement phase. Bloodletters get a 97%+ chance to make a charge from Deepstrike. Where are the dedicated threads complaining about these?

The difference, I posit, between these and Drop Pods is that Drop Pods belong to Marines, and as we all know the uninspiring, overhyped, boring, baby-eating, candy-stealing Marines shouldn't be allowed good things ever or they're completely broken (see Leviathan Dreadnought for another example of this mentality). Neither the examples above nor the Drop Pod break the game, but the edgy counter-culture revolts against Space Marines because they're "the man".

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

*And no, this doesn't mean I'm saying Chaos is perfectly fine and doesn't need a bunch of changes.

**Note that I'm talking about rules here, not model releases.


Nah. The difference is that Marines get so many of these game-breaking abilities now seemingly just for the heck of it, rather than it fitting their characterization as an army.

Yeah, Drukhari can shoot out of transports. That's their thing. They're an extremely mobile glass hammer army, hyper-specialized into use of fast transports, so they get the single rule-breaking ability of having transports that they can shoot out of, and that largely defines their gameplay style.

Meanwhile, the jack-of-all-trades Space Marines can move and then disembark, prevent nearby DS, DS turn 1, null-deploy, move and charge after DS deployment, and largely ignore morale. That's not even touching on what they can additionally do with stratagems or army traits; those are just unit and army-wide abilities.

If GW wanted to push Marines towards being an alpha-strike army and make T1 DS 'their thing', I'd be completely fine with that. It's when they get every other rule-breaking buff in the book too that it looks less like characterization and more like favoritism. Like I said on the first page, not because it's unbalanced, but because it hurts the flavor of the game if it boils down to 'Marines are best at everything'.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/19 20:21:36


   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Drukhari break the rules by shooting out of their transports. Khorne Berzerkers break the game by having a 3CP stratagem stapled on them for free. Warptime* and the Swarmlord lets a unit get a free extra movement phase. Bloodletters get a 97%+ chance to make a charge from Deepstrike. Where are the dedicated threads complaining about these?

The difference, I posit, between these and Drop Pods is that Drop Pods belong to Marines, and as we all know the uninspiring, overhyped, boring, baby-eating, candy-stealing Marines shouldn't be allowed good things ever or they're completely broken (see Leviathan Dreadnought for another example of this mentality). Neither the examples above nor the Drop Pod break the game, but the edgy counter-culture revolts against Space Marines because they're "the man".

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

*And no, this doesn't mean I'm saying Chaos is perfectly fine and doesn't need a bunch of changes.

**Note that I'm talking about rules here, not model releases.


Except that Gw just literally removed all similar abilities due to beeing unfun.
And just reimplement them again?
That is bs.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

You can't claim that there isn't any favouritism when if you look at GW's available pre orders there are 31 items, 22 of which are Space Marines and 7 are Eldar. There are triple the amount of Marines, who were released already, than Eldar who are reaching the fruition of weeks of buildup. Even taking into account duplicate products and the potential 4 releases that Eldar might have soon there are still more Marines. They may not be the competitive top dogs but Marines, are and have been for a long time, the clear favourites.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

pm713 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

You can't claim that there isn't any favouritism when if you look at GW's available pre orders there are 31 items, 22 of which are Space Marines and 7 are Eldar. There are triple the amount of Marines, who were released already, than Eldar who are reaching the fruition of weeks of buildup. Even taking into account duplicate products and the potential 4 releases that Eldar might have soon there are still more Marines. They may not be the competitive top dogs but Marines, are and have been for a long time, the clear favourites.


What part of "I'm talking about rules, not models" was unclear?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

You can't claim that there isn't any favouritism when if you look at GW's available pre orders there are 31 items, 22 of which are Space Marines and 7 are Eldar. There are triple the amount of Marines, who were released already, than Eldar who are reaching the fruition of weeks of buildup. Even taking into account duplicate products and the potential 4 releases that Eldar might have soon there are still more Marines. They may not be the competitive top dogs but Marines, are and have been for a long time, the clear favourites.


What part of "I'm talking about rules, not models" was unclear?

Sadly, even if you try (which I don't think you did seeing as you complained about how Marines are percieved) you can't neatly separate rules from everything else. The ultimate truth is that Marines are a favourite product for GW and whatever their reasoning is for it that has an impact on how people are going to view them which in turn affects their reactions to rules.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





pm713 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

You can't claim that there isn't any favouritism when if you look at GW's available pre orders there are 31 items, 22 of which are Space Marines and 7 are Eldar. There are triple the amount of Marines, who were released already, than Eldar who are reaching the fruition of weeks of buildup. Even taking into account duplicate products and the potential 4 releases that Eldar might have soon there are still more Marines. They may not be the competitive top dogs but Marines, are and have been for a long time, the clear favourites.


you mean when space Marines just had a new release because they've been dragging it out? Christ man, I could if I timed it right use your "proof" to "prove" that GW favors fething adeptus Titanicus over 40K.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

You can't claim that there isn't any favouritism when if you look at GW's available pre orders there are 31 items, 22 of which are Space Marines and 7 are Eldar. There are triple the amount of Marines, who were released already, than Eldar who are reaching the fruition of weeks of buildup. Even taking into account duplicate products and the potential 4 releases that Eldar might have soon there are still more Marines. They may not be the competitive top dogs but Marines, are and have been for a long time, the clear favourites.


What part of "I'm talking about rules, not models" was unclear?

Well… arguably, if you look up at the amount of rules available, there are way more rules available for purchase for marines! They got 4 supplements with two more coming!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/19 22:37:37


"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

You can't claim that there isn't any favouritism when if you look at GW's available pre orders there are 31 items, 22 of which are Space Marines and 7 are Eldar. There are triple the amount of Marines, who were released already, than Eldar who are reaching the fruition of weeks of buildup. Even taking into account duplicate products and the potential 4 releases that Eldar might have soon there are still more Marines. They may not be the competitive top dogs but Marines, are and have been for a long time, the clear favourites.


you mean when space Marines just had a new release because they've been dragging it out? Christ man, I could if I timed it right use your "proof" to "prove" that GW favors fething adeptus Titanicus over 40K.

Why don't we count up all of the new Marine models that have been released since 8th began and all the new models of other factions that have been released and see how the two compare?

This isn't the only massive new release marines have enjoyed. Nor could GW stop themselves having smaller marine releases in between their larger ones. The favouritism is obvious, alienating and impossible to deny.

As to the OP - I fully agree with them. Marines are playing a different game now with their new codexes where they get to break every rule that other factions must follow. Not all of these lead to OP or even strong combinations, but many do. In addition, they now enjoy access to more stratagems and relics than any other faction in the game. Balance has been thrown out.

Rumours are that BT are in next PA, then BA, then Wolves. After that no doubt it'll be DA and GK. Oh and the worse GW perceive the Marine army, the more new stuff its going to get. The Marine train isn't gonna slow for no one. I can't wait for the next PA where xenos feature with Marines and get a quarter of what the Marines get in the same release. GW are fething this right up.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





What are you saying ?

Guard got so many 8th edition model releases...wait..I know Dark Eldar did..wait...I know Tau did...oh..

Well. Yeah. Does seem pretty dry for some factions yeah ?
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






AngryAngel80 wrote:
What are you saying ?

Guard got so many 8th edition model releases...wait..I know Dark Eldar did..wait...I know Tau did...oh..

Well. Yeah. Does seem pretty dry for some factions yeah ?

Yea, that's exactly what I'm saying - some factions have had little or no model releases and that's a bad thing when one faction has a literal never ending swathe of new model releases.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I still clump in the Dark Eldar with the none really. As so far the only ones have been the incubi and drazhar.

Yeah if you look at it, it's pretty sad. Yet marines, marines every where. I even play marines but it's a bit much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 08:56:34


 
   
Made in be
Regular Dakkanaut





 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Why don't we count up all of the new Marine models that have been released since 8th began and all the new models of other factions that have been released and see how the two compare?


I actually attempted to count up all of the releases of the different factions and with seeing this thread updated it with the new releases. It isn’t a perfect list, since I haven’t figured out quite well what to do with non—main-army miniatures like the gellerpox or the releases of Blackstone Fortress. (Thank you lexicanum for your miniature list)

The Imperium
Spoiler:

- The Imperium forces, minus all the characters of Blackstone fortress, the Elucidan Starstriders, and their terrain, stand at a whopping 47 releases. Of those 47 releases, 32 in total (I’m including the space marine heroes sets) are space marine releases, with 30 being Primaris releases. If I treat all the Lieutenants and Captain releases as seperate, you can add 11 more to that list. Only the Suppressors marines haven’t had their release yet outside of the Shadowspear box.

- The IG got only two releases; Sly Marbo and commissar Raine. That is it.

- I haven’t added in the new upcoming Sisters box with this list, but they currently do have one release with the one Sister Superior model we had a month ago.

-More than half of Imperium releases so far have been Astartes.


Chaos
Spoiler:

- Chaos has had the most releases so far, namely 52. Death Guard gained the most in this, with about 20 units solely for them.

-Chaos Daemons have gotten 18 units out of this. Though you can say this is also thanks to their cross compatibility with AoS. If you don’t count them, you only have 34 units left.

- The main Chaos Space marine army only had 12 units. And 4 of those aren’t available outside of Shadowspear.

-Chaos has had a decent release, but only thanks to AoS sharing units with 40k


Xenos
Spoiler:

- without terrain like the Mekboy Workshop and Blackstone units like Amallyn Shadowguide, Xenos only had 26 unit releases.

- Genestealer Cults have had it quite good. 12 units. Very good for a faction that only existed one edition ago.

-Orks come in second with their 6 different vehicles.

- Eldar this editon got 4 releases. A Spiritseer, Jain Zar, New Banshees, and their exarch. That is it.

- Dark Eldar only have 3 units, and all of them were just released with Phoenix Rising. Drazhar, Incubi, and a Klaivex.

- Harlequins actually got a new Shadowseer if you could believe it.

- Necrons only got a single Cryptek. And don’t tell me that the Seraptek counts, since that is a Forgeworld.

-Tyranids got nothing

- Tau got nothing

-All of the xenos faction together got less releases than Primaris got in this edition.


TL;DR Space marines have gotten more releases than all of the xenos combined this edition. Some of the xenos factions still haven’t gotten anything so far. Only Chaos has had more releases than the Imperium because they share units with AoS.

Also, people seem to forget that we still have more space marines to come. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars are definitely going to have stuff incoming.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





I doubt we'll see much more then the odd special character for space wolves, black tempalrs etc. I could be wrong (there was a referance in the UM supplement to "Hellfuries") but that's generally how it goes.

I think it's worth breaking things down to look at the releases. Primaris Marines are effectively a new army (one that coincidntly works with their most popular army) and got a lot of releases. deathguard also new and got the lion's share of the new chaos stuff (in addition to demons that where part of new AOS armies) other armies with signfcigent releases, GSCs, custodes. Imperial Knights.

all of these have something in common, they're all fairly new armies that GW wants to flesh out.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/606224.page

BTW useful data in that poll, according to it, (the thread is still active in 2019, although it was started in 2014 so the data has been collected long term) Space Marines (Vanilla, BA, DA and space wolves, whom all benifit from the primaris release) make up over a quarter of the army of those who play 40k. Orks are the most popular xenos race, and Chaos Marines are the most popular non imperial faction (and second most popular army)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




It is really fethed up, GK were designed with 1st turn deep strike in mind and non of the 50% stuff, the units have the cost of it in rules they lack, models and gear options, stats and point costs. GSC the same, the mechanics were deemed unfun, so something that mechanicaly made sense for them was removed. And SM come and get those mechanics or ways to go around those mechanics, just like that. And they get it for free, well aside for the books cost.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't really care how you cut it or rationalize it. The numbers are pretty shocking. Aside from a random character here or there, Xeno got butt all except for GSC. Which if you want to be true, they were also a relatively new army.

Even other imperial forces got relatively little to nothing. Guard since 8th, Sly Marbo who I forgot and a commissar model. Wow, pretty awesome.

No matter how you cut it, Marines have been literally stomping all over everything in relation to model releases anyways. Will this trend at this point ever dial back ? Lord only knows.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 11:04:40


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Quick question, Segersgia - are the HB Exarch and Klaivex not part of the Howling Banshee and Incubi sprues, not separate sprues?

I haven't looked at the sprues yet, but squad leaders are normally part of the unit.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: