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Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Segersgia wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Why don't we count up all of the new Marine models that have been released since 8th began and all the new models of other factions that have been released and see how the two compare?


I actually attempted to count up all of the releases of the different factions and with seeing this thread updated it with the new releases. It isn’t a perfect list, since I haven’t figured out quite well what to do with non—main-army miniatures like the gellerpox or the releases of Blackstone Fortress. (Thank you lexicanum for your miniature list)

The Imperium
Spoiler:

- The Imperium forces, minus all the characters of Blackstone fortress, the Elucidan Starstriders, and their terrain, stand at a whopping 47 releases. Of those 47 releases, 32 in total (I’m including the space marine heroes sets) are space marine releases, with 30 being Primaris releases. If I treat all the Lieutenants and Captain releases as seperate, you can add 11 more to that list. Only the Suppressors marines haven’t had their release yet outside of the Shadowspear box.

- The IG got only two releases; Sly Marbo and commissar Raine. That is it.

- I haven’t added in the new upcoming Sisters box with this list, but they currently do have one release with the one Sister Superior model we had a month ago.

-More than half of Imperium releases so far have been Astartes.


Chaos
Spoiler:

- Chaos has had the most releases so far, namely 52. Death Guard gained the most in this, with about 20 units solely for them.

-Chaos Daemons have gotten 18 units out of this. Though you can say this is also thanks to their cross compatibility with AoS. If you don’t count them, you only have 34 units left.

- The main Chaos Space marine army only had 12 units. And 4 of those aren’t available outside of Shadowspear.

-Chaos has had a decent release, but only thanks to AoS sharing units with 40k


Xenos
Spoiler:

- without terrain like the Mekboy Workshop and Blackstone units like Amallyn Shadowguide, Xenos only had 26 unit releases.

- Genestealer Cults have had it quite good. 12 units. Very good for a faction that only existed one edition ago.

-Orks come in second with their 6 different vehicles.

- Eldar this editon got 4 releases. A Spiritseer, Jain Zar, New Banshees, and their exarch. That is it.

- Dark Eldar only have 3 units, and all of them were just released with Phoenix Rising. Drazhar, Incubi, and a Klaivex.

- Harlequins actually got a new Shadowseer if you could believe it.

- Necrons only got a single Cryptek. And don’t tell me that the Seraptek counts, since that is a Forgeworld.

-Tyranids got nothing

- Tau got nothing

-All of the xenos faction together got less releases than Primaris got in this edition.


TL;DR Space marines have gotten more releases than all of the xenos combined this edition. Some of the xenos factions still haven’t gotten anything so far. Only Chaos has had more releases than the Imperium because they share units with AoS.

Also, people seem to forget that we still have more space marines to come. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars are definitely going to have stuff incoming.


I appreciate the effort here but some of your numbers are wrong - the Klaivex for DE and the Exarch for Banshees are sergeant models that exist in their respective unit bundles. They're equivalent models to SM Sergeants in their squads so the xeno numbers are even worse.

BrianDavion wrote:
I doubt we'll see much more then the odd special character for space wolves, black tempalrs etc. I could be wrong (there was a referance in the UM supplement to "Hellfuries") but that's generally how it goes.


No, that isn't generally "how it goes". Literally all evidence we have, not just this edition, but for many, many, many editions before is that Marine releases overshadow every other release both in terms of quantity and quality.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't really care how you cut it or rationalize it. The numbers are pretty shocking. Aside from a random character here or there, Xeno got butt all except for GSC. Which if you want to be true, they were also a relatively new army.

Even other imperial forces got relatively little to nothing. Guard since 8th, Sly Marbo who I forgot and a commissar model. Wow, pretty awesome.

No matter how you cut it, Marines have been literally stomping all over everything in relation to model releases anyways. Will this trend at this point ever dial back ? Lord only knows.


Agreed, it's shocking.

No, this trend will never change. The SM fanboys will REEE themselves silly if it did and GW aren't interested in any other factions unless they somehow make Marines seem even more cool/interesting (see Phoenix Rising book).
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Segersgia wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Why don't we count up all of the new Marine models that have been released since 8th began and all the new models of other factions that have been released and see how the two compare?


I actually attempted to count up all of the releases of the different factions and with seeing this thread updated it with the new releases. It isn’t a perfect list, since I haven’t figured out quite well what to do with non—main-army miniatures like the gellerpox or the releases of Blackstone Fortress. (Thank you lexicanum for your miniature list)

The Imperium
Spoiler:

- The Imperium forces, minus all the characters of Blackstone fortress, the Elucidan Starstriders, and their terrain, stand at a whopping 47 releases. Of those 47 releases, 32 in total (I’m including the space marine heroes sets) are space marine releases, with 30 being Primaris releases. If I treat all the Lieutenants and Captain releases as seperate, you can add 11 more to that list. Only the Suppressors marines haven’t had their release yet outside of the Shadowspear box.

- The IG got only two releases; Sly Marbo and commissar Raine. That is it.

- I haven’t added in the new upcoming Sisters box with this list, but they currently do have one release with the one Sister Superior model we had a month ago.

-More than half of Imperium releases so far have been Astartes.


Chaos
Spoiler:

- Chaos has had the most releases so far, namely 52. Death Guard gained the most in this, with about 20 units solely for them.

-Chaos Daemons have gotten 18 units out of this. Though you can say this is also thanks to their cross compatibility with AoS. If you don’t count them, you only have 34 units left.

- The main Chaos Space marine army only had 12 units. And 4 of those aren’t available outside of Shadowspear.

-Chaos has had a decent release, but only thanks to AoS sharing units with 40k


Xenos
Spoiler:

- without terrain like the Mekboy Workshop and Blackstone units like Amallyn Shadowguide, Xenos only had 26 unit releases.

- Genestealer Cults have had it quite good. 12 units. Very good for a faction that only existed one edition ago.

-Orks come in second with their 6 different vehicles.

- Eldar this editon got 4 releases. A Spiritseer, Jain Zar, New Banshees, and their exarch. That is it.

- Dark Eldar only have 3 units, and all of them were just released with Phoenix Rising. Drazhar, Incubi, and a Klaivex.

- Harlequins actually got a new Shadowseer if you could believe it.

- Necrons only got a single Cryptek. And don’t tell me that the Seraptek counts, since that is a Forgeworld.

-Tyranids got nothing

- Tau got nothing

-All of the xenos faction together got less releases than Primaris got in this edition.


TL;DR Space marines have gotten more releases than all of the xenos combined this edition. Some of the xenos factions still haven’t gotten anything so far. Only Chaos has had more releases than the Imperium because they share units with AoS.

Also, people seem to forget that we still have more space marines to come. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Black Templars are definitely going to have stuff incoming.


Ooof.
That to see written out, hurts.

I'd like a pie Diagramm of it.


Also DG are the chaos primaris equivalent it feels like, meanwhile other Spikey boys get Jack all.
Some of them don't even have a dex....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 11:38:54


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Not Online!!! wrote:
Also DG are the chaos primaris equivalent it feels like, meanwhile other Spikey boys get Jack all.
Some of them don't even have a dex....

Well, that would have something to do with Death Guard being introduced as a discrete Codex, no?

And I think a lot of people are expecting a World Eaters Codex and an Emperor's Children Codex at some point - and at that point, I'd expect those two to get a decent number of releases, too.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Dysartes wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Also DG are the chaos primaris equivalent it feels like, meanwhile other Spikey boys get Jack all.
Some of them don't even have a dex....

Well, that would have something to do with Death Guard being introduced as a discrete Codex, no?

And I think a lot of people are expecting a World Eaters Codex and an Emperor's Children Codex at some point - and at that point, I'd expect those two to get a decent number of releases, too.


Fine and Dandy and all but what about normal legions?
It allready took too long to finally get a kit update.

And what about non Slaanesh or khorne daemons.

What about Dex update for fw armies?

Don't get me wrong i would love to see EC or we but it feels like to me these factions could've been solved supplement style like sm now.

But alas

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Also DG are the chaos primaris equivalent it feels like, meanwhile other Spikey boys get Jack all.
Some of them don't even have a dex....

Well, that would have something to do with Death Guard being introduced as a discrete Codex, no?

And I think a lot of people are expecting a World Eaters Codex and an Emperor's Children Codex at some point - and at that point, I'd expect those two to get a decent number of releases, too.


Fine and Dandy and all but what about normal legions?
It allready took too long to finally get a kit update.

And what about non Slaanesh or khorne daemons.

What about Dex update for fw armies?

Don't get me wrong i would love to see EC or we but it feels like to me these factions could've been solved supplement style like sm now.

But alas

They could've helped a lot of the legions with a few lines in the main csm codex.
Raptors count as troops in night lords detachments.
There is that so fething hard? I've also heard that salamanders have a votlw equivalent strategem now that works for all their units not just infantry. Our best strategem but better. That's. Fething. Gak.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Wait?!? That's a joke right?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Marines have been objectively bottom-tier trash for most of this edition's existence, and yet people immediately fly off the handle about "favouritism" when the buff finally happens.**

You can't claim that there isn't any favouritism when if you look at GW's available pre orders there are 31 items, 22 of which are Space Marines and 7 are Eldar. There are triple the amount of Marines, who were released already, than Eldar who are reaching the fruition of weeks of buildup. Even taking into account duplicate products and the potential 4 releases that Eldar might have soon there are still more Marines. They may not be the competitive top dogs but Marines, are and have been for a long time, the clear favourites.


you mean when space Marines just had a new release because they've been dragging it out? Christ man, I could if I timed it right use your "proof" to "prove" that GW favors fething adeptus Titanicus over 40K.


Space Marines got a codex, multiple new units, and multiple supplements. Four Eldar armies combined have less than that in their new release. One release is far bigger than the other. On top of that Marines are getting another three new characters for some reason. Eldar got two redone characters both of which replacing models that are older than me. Oh and their other new units replace things in Finecrap. Must be nice for Marines who get plastic units then get those replaced super fast.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

That's what they said on moarhammer. Hoping they misspoke and it's just infantry. But given what we've seen so far I doubt it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait?!? That's a joke right?

D6 evolution saying the same. So yeah looks like it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 14:21:45


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait?!? That's a joke right?
GW has no clue how to fix Space Marines so they just threw a literal bucket of special rules at them.

That is the problem with new marines. There was no attempt at balancing marines to be competitive in the existing game. They just throw a load of special rules at the army,

Army wide +1 attack, -1 ap.
Better rules of everyones existing rules.
Lets give them turn 1 deepstrikes....
ect ect.

Its just stupid, lazy and incompetent.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Chillicothe, OH

Hell just look at the number of rules. How many rules, including chapter tactics do a simple tac marine have?

And yet, Nids still dont have a LoW

My Painting Blog, UPDATED!

Armies in 8th:
Minotaurs: 1-0-0
Thousand Sons: 15-3

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Ordana wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait?!? That's a joke right?
GW has no clue how to fix Space Marines so they just threw a literal bucket of special rules at them.

That is the problem with new marines. There was no attempt at balancing marines to be competitive in the existing game. They just throw a load of special rules at the army,

Army wide +1 attack, -1 ap.
Better rules of everyones existing rules.
Lets give them turn 1 deepstrikes....
ect ect.

Its just stupid, lazy and incompetent.


So let me get this straight, they literally take one of the best stratagems (due to their bad wounding table),which allready could be problematic and decide to slap it on in a doctrine for a whole army?!?!?!

Like wtf?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

It only applies to Flamers and Melta weapons in Tactical Doctrine. But it's still pretty potent.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I disagree with any of these wider problems...

Drop pods cost 65 points where several armies can deploy much more powerful units for the cost of a relic turn 1. Drop pods are in fact pretty garbage. Without several stratagems going off and spending a ton on the units to go inside the pod you are at best looking at a really expensive suicide unit.

Impuslors are pretty good but can only hold intercessors/hellblasters and you can't charge after. So basically if just gets you in range to shoot with short range guns...hardly an issue in a game with first turn charges being a common thing.

The issue with marines is doctrine are very powerful and every marine just got +1 attack across the board. This puts marines at top tier currently. With certain busted super doctrines like Imperial fist and Iron hands - they are clearly the best option in the game right now BUT every army is going to be getting updated rules most likely...so we have no idea what the power level of this 8.5 edition is going to be like.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
I disagree with any of these wider problems...

Drop pods cost 65 points where several armies can deploy much more powerful units for the cost of a relic turn 1. Drop pods are in fact pretty garbage. Without several stratagems going off and spending a ton on the units to go inside the pod you are at best looking at a really expensive suicide unit.

Impuslors are pretty good but can only hold intercessors/hellblasters and you can't charge after. So basically if just gets you in range to shoot with short range guns...hardly an issue in a game with first turn charges being a common thing.

The issue with marines is doctrine are very powerful and every marine just got +1 attack across the board. This puts marines at top tier currently. With certain busted super doctrines like Imperial fist and Iron hands - they are clearly the best option in the game right now BUT every army is going to be getting updated rules most likely...so we have no idea what the power level of this 8.5 edition is going to be like.
Yeah... I'm not nearly as confident that every army is going to get similar updates in short order.
And even if they do I still don't like it. 8th edition is already a very lethal edition that has seen GW scramble to limit alpha strike, increasing the power of everyone is a mistake.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Xenomancers wrote:
I disagree with any of these wider problems...

Drop pods cost 65 points where several armies can deploy much more powerful units for the cost of a relic turn 1. Drop pods are in fact pretty garbage. Without several stratagems going off and spending a ton on the units to go inside the pod you are at best looking at a really expensive suicide unit.

Impuslors are pretty good but can only hold intercessors/hellblasters and you can't charge after. So basically if just gets you in range to shoot with short range guns...hardly an issue in a game with first turn charges being a common thing.

The issue with marines is doctrine are very powerful and every marine just got +1 attack across the board. This puts marines at top tier currently. With certain busted super doctrines like Imperial fist and Iron hands - they are clearly the best option in the game right now BUT every army is going to be getting updated rules most likely...so we have no idea what the power level of this 8.5 edition is going to be like.


Xenomancer isn't wrong here, no one was taking droppods because 65 points to deepstrike was excessive. and he's not wrong to note that well marines are powerful now, within 6 months they could be trash tier again.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Ordana wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait?!? That's a joke right?
GW has no clue how to fix Space Marines so they just threw a literal bucket of special rules at them.

That is the problem with new marines. There was no attempt at balancing marines to be competitive in the existing game. They just throw a load of special rules at the army,

Army wide +1 attack, -1 ap.
Better rules of everyones existing rules.
Lets give them turn 1 deepstrikes....
ect ect.

Its just stupid, lazy and incompetent.


"They are my Angels of Death. My Space Marines.

...and they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!"



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Grimtuff wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Wait?!? That's a joke right?
GW has no clue how to fix Space Marines so they just threw a literal bucket of special rules at them.

That is the problem with new marines. There was no attempt at balancing marines to be competitive in the existing game. They just throw a load of special rules at the army,

Army wide +1 attack, -1 ap.
Better rules of everyones existing rules.
Lets give them turn 1 deepstrikes....
ect ect.

Its just stupid, lazy and incompetent.


"They are my Angels of Death. My Space Marines.

...and they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!"



Yes because Space Marines have NEVER had crappy rules before

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 20:03:42


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






When did you start playing? Because SMs have ALWAYS had rules that circumvent or outright ignore restrictions put in the rulebook the rest of the other armies have to follow (literally ATSKNF. First codex out the gate in 3rd ed and one of the game's core rules was already circumvented).

If they fell behind due to the inevitable codex creep, GW would bump them back up again. Loads of AP2 weapons? Time for Termies to get and invulnerable save. (which admittedly was needed, but it still reinforces my point).



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

I'd also like to know where all the outrage was when Orks got the Black Templars Chapter Tactic except strictly better across their entire army on top of getting clan tactics or where the anger was when Slaanesh Marines got a strictly better version of the Black Helm, since having better versions of someone else's rules is apparently now a deadly sin.

This whole gnashing and wailing about how Marines are always overpowered is conflating having a disproportionate amount of model releases with having too powerful rules.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Chillicothe, OH

 Xenomancers wrote:
I disagree with any of these wider problems...

Drop pods cost 65 points where several armies can deploy much more powerful units for the cost of a relic turn 1. Drop pods are in fact pretty garbage. Without several stratagems going off and spending a ton on the units to go inside the pod you are at best looking at a really expensive suicide unit.

Impuslors are pretty good but can only hold intercessors/hellblasters and you can't charge after. So basically if just gets you in range to shoot with short range guns...hardly an issue in a game with first turn charges being a common thing.

The issue with marines is doctrine are very powerful and every marine just got +1 attack across the board. This puts marines at top tier currently. With certain busted super doctrines like Imperial fist and Iron hands - they are clearly the best option in the game right now BUT every army is going to be getting updated rules most likely...so we have no idea what the power level of this 8.5 edition is going to be like.


I mean, my drop pods (tyrannocytes) cost 110+ points and cant drop turn 1..... id kill for 65


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'd also like to know where all the outrage was when Orks got the Black Templars Chapter Tactic except strictly better across their entire army on top of getting clan tactics or where the anger was when Slaanesh Marines got a strictly better version of the Black Helm, since having better versions of someone else's rules is apparently now a deadly sin.

This whole gnashing and wailing about how Marines are always overpowered is conflating having a disproportionate amount of model releases with having too powerful rules.


The problem here is you are mentioning one army and one rules. Marines are getting MASS new rules and rules breaks, buffs and everything else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 20:17:05


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Armies in 8th:
Minotaurs: 1-0-0
Thousand Sons: 15-3

 
   
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Krieg! What a hole...

 Grimtuff wrote:
When did you start playing? Because SMs have ALWAYS had rules that circumvent or outright ignore restrictions put in the rulebook the rest of the other armies have to follow (literally ATSKNF. First codex out the gate in 3rd ed and one of the game's core rules was already circumvented).

If they fell behind due to the inevitable codex creep, GW would bump them back up again. Loads of AP2 weapons? Time for Termies to get and invulnerable save. (which admittedly was needed, but it still reinforces my point).



You can go back even earlier with Marines being immune to those grenades that could otherwise wipe an entire army before the game started. That was what, RT/2nd Ed era?

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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 JNAProductions wrote:
It only applies to Flamers and Melta weapons in Tactical Doctrine. But it's still pretty potent.


With the ammunt of flamers posible and T1 delivery systems that are guaranteed, think it is still preety bonkers.
And they should've known such effects are strong allready, they had their fieldstudy so to speak.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Not Online!!! wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
It only applies to Flamers and Melta weapons in Tactical Doctrine. But it's still pretty potent.


With the ammunt of flamers posible and T1 delivery systems that are guaranteed, think it is still preety bonkers.
And they should've known such effects are strong allready, they had their fieldstudy so to speak.
Tactical Doctrine doesn't start till turn 2 at the earliest.

There's ways to make one or two units count as a different doctrine, I think, but the overall army has to start in Devastator.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimtuff wrote:
When did you start playing? Because SMs have ALWAYS had rules that circumvent or outright ignore restrictions put in the rulebook the rest of the other armies have to follow (literally ATSKNF. First codex out the gate in 3rd ed and one of the game's core rules was already circumvented).

If they fell behind due to the inevitable codex creep, GW would bump them back up again. Loads of AP2 weapons? Time for Termies to get and invulnerable save. (which admittedly was needed, but it still reinforces my point).



Sure. Most of 40k from Rogue Trader to today was horribly balanced.

It's not that there wasn't a terrible 40K-tradition of OP / stupid rules and that Nu-Marines don't fit nicely into the line with Chaos 3.5, Matt Ward Grey Knights, TauDar or Screamer Stars. In the long view, nothing new here.

It's that there was a strange, miraculous and in hindsight likely unintended 6 month or so period between the Castellan getting finally fixed and this new Marine book coming out, which kinda felt different. Where people were winning tournaments with Orks, Tau, GSC, Eldar, Chaos .. and yes, even Marines. It was a time when people had success if they knew there armies well, not if they simply were the people who could 3-colour-paint the latest rules-hickup fastest. It wasn't perfect by any means. But it was a time when the game was curiously diverse.

The disappointment isn't that Nu-Marines are just the same-old-same-old Leafblower-Screamer-Star-whatever nonesense we've seen from GW consistently for 20 years. The disappointment is that we've had an every so tiny taste of what 40K could've been instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 20:35:05


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
When did you start playing? Because SMs have ALWAYS had rules that circumvent or outright ignore restrictions put in the rulebook the rest of the other armies have to follow (literally ATSKNF. First codex out the gate in 3rd ed and one of the game's core rules was already circumvented).

If they fell behind due to the inevitable codex creep, GW would bump them back up again. Loads of AP2 weapons? Time for Termies to get and invulnerable save. (which admittedly was needed, but it still reinforces my point).



Sure. Most of 40k from Rogue Trader to today was horribly balanced.

It's not that there wasn't a terrible 40K-tradition of OP / stupid rules and that Nu-Marines don't fit nicely into the line with Chaos 3.5, Matt Ward Grey Knights, TauDar or Screamer Stars. In the long view, nothing new here.

It's that there was a strange, miraculous and in hindsight likely unintended 6 month or so period between the Castellan getting finally fixed and this new Marine book coming out, which kinda felt different. Where people were winning tournaments with Orks, Tau, GSC, Eldar, Chaos .. and yes, even Marines. It was a time when people had success if they knew there armies well, not if they simply were the people who could 3-colour-paint the latest rules-hickup fastest. It wasn't perfect by any means. But it was a time when the game was curiously diverse.

The disappointment isn't that Nu-Marines are just the same-old-same-old Leafblower-Screamer-Star-whatever nonesense we've seen from GW consistently for 20 years. The disappointment is that we've had an every so tiny taste of what 40K could've been instead.



Quite litterally shattered by the supplements iron hand.

I'll go back to my bunker now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
It only applies to Flamers and Melta weapons in Tactical Doctrine. But it's still pretty potent.


With the ammunt of flamers posible and T1 delivery systems that are guaranteed, think it is still preety bonkers.
And they should've known such effects are strong allready, they had their fieldstudy so to speak.
Tactical Doctrine doesn't start till turn 2 at the earliest.

There's ways to make one or two units count as a different doctrine, I think, but the overall army has to start in Devastator.


Well that is something.
Still quite an amazing buff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 20:37:35


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
It only applies to Flamers and Melta weapons in Tactical Doctrine. But it's still pretty potent.


With the ammunt of flamers posible and T1 delivery systems that are guaranteed, think it is still preety bonkers.
And they should've known such effects are strong allready, they had their fieldstudy so to speak.

And for a whopping 1cp more they get another +1 to wound on ANY unit with ANY weapon. Infantry? 1cp. Tank? 1cp. Fething super heavy? 1cp. Csm get it on infantry only for the same cost. And it's one of our few good strategems. It's not that sm got good rules. They got all the good rules but made better.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The real issue is all y'all wanted more rules and more flavor and more flavored rules instead of a simple balance check.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The real issue is all y'all wanted more rules and more flavor and more flavored rules instead of a simple balance check.


? I wanted traits fixed and thought of them as a bad idea as soon as I saw them. *

I also wanted that soup gets deincentiveced not intencivice mono via buffs galore.

* i am not persay against them, i am against the fact that you just get them all for the same price, namely for free.
And gw /fw knew before that this ain't working that way because the proto traits that were found in IA 13 for demagogues also had differing point costs....
It's like 1 step forwards 5 steps back all over the damn place.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/20 20:59:06


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The real issue is all y'all wanted more rules and more flavor and more flavored rules instead of a simple balance check.

It's not the rules that add flavor that people are complaining about. No one is complaining about rg. Why should ih overwatch like tau? Why should salamanders be better votlw than actual votlw? Why do ih get the same defense against psykers as the psyker hating we and bt?
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Dunno ask the supplement writers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/20 20:57:47


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
 
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