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If you hated something that much why wouldn't you build weapons against it? It's a bit like saying Eldar hate Slaanesh so have no weapons against it.

pm713 wrote:
If you hated something that much why wouldn't you build weapons against it? It's a bit like saying Eldar hate Slaanesh so have no weapons against it.

They... Don't? Yes, they've structured their society to be resistant to her influence, but they don't really have specific doctrines that let them deal with Daemons in general or Slaanesh Daemons in particular. Necrons have their blackstone installations and gloom prisms. Americans can protect themselves against missiles, but it's not like every US marine is walking around with anti-missile defence systems, partially because AFAIK those are kind of gak. It is not so weird that Necrons would be unable to deal with psykers on a scale smaller than a factory-sized building, relatively tiny to have 5-50 of those on each tomb world, but not something you'd casually bring into battle when you could've had another 10 Monoliths instead. Same way you see anti-missile systems to deal with nukes against your country, but you don't have your average infantryman with an anti-missile system, maybe some tanks are getting tested with anti-missile systems but they're not an I-win button. If Necrons had an I-win button against psychic powers they wouldn't be so distraught by the Tyranids, sure the Tyranids are ignoring them, just like an ant-colony might ignore the rock used to anchor your picknick blanket while eating the cake on your picknick blanket, but that's not helping your cake.

Necrons care about humans because several dynasties are interested in having humans to enslave and many want to study the biology of sentient races to figure out a way to become biological lifeforms.

pm713 wrote:
If you hated something that much why wouldn't you build weapons against it? It's a bit like saying Eldar hate Slaanesh so have no weapons against it.

Do the Pylons count?

I beat on this drum often, but Drukhari need more HQ choices, so that they can field two kabalite battalions or two wych battalions while respecting the RO3 and without having to take special characters. Examples could include sub-Archons (Dracons), jetbike or hoverboard Succubi, and "super-Scourges" (perhaps with a sniper rule, since both Craftworlds and Harlequins have sniper characters but not Drukhari).

I've also suggested rules for a Command Barge, which would harken back to Asdrubael Vect's Dais of Destruction.

.

DudleyGrim wrote:
I ended up selling my Necrons due to how boring and vanilla of a faction they felt, especially after 6th edition revamped them.

HQs need some SERIOUS buffs, an Overlord should be a HELL of a lot better in CC for example. Crypteks NEED more utility and wargear options.

Stronger melee options in general. As a Xenos army, they need more tools to stand on their own. Buffs to units like Flayed Ones, and Tomb Spyders (Bring back scarab spam!) would greatly help add some diversity to the roster.

Lastly, more defense vs psykers. These guys HATE the warp and should have a few better options than a Warlord Trait and Tomb Spyders. Perhaps C'Tan could attempt to deny?

I know this isn't everybody's view on Necrons, but I have always felt that they were kind of like a Xenos Space Marine army, well rounded and fairly tough. A good army for beginners who aren't great at painting yet, and want a fairly straight forward army.

Yeah, the HQ types should be powerhouses.
They should, funnily enough, play like Tomb Kings / Vampire Counts. Lots of weak infantry supported by magic (C'tan powers and Cryptek toys. Bring back 5th staves), Special and Rare units (Lychguard, Destroyers, ect) and Lords / heroes (HQ types)
Immortals would be like Tomb / Grave Guard, warriors closer to skeleton archers.

Right now GW is trying to do this thing where they are kind of like marines in terms of stats and they are also sort of generalists with an emphasis on mid range shooting, but worse because GW didn't translate their Gauss rule over that well into 8th and they have this odd idea that Resurrection Protocols is super strong, even though it doesn't scale that well in higher point games, and it doesn't really work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As someone with no connection to Necrons (don't play them or against them) C'tan having anti-psychic properties would be a no-brainer, as would various units with null rods etc. that mess with the Warp. A system like the Chaplain/Dark Apostle buff could work for C'tan too.

C'tan hate the warp and have no power over it, so it would not be a no-brainer unless you want to smash the fluff.

True, C'tan wouldn't be able to deny the witch like a psyker could, but they could use their reality warping powers to "correct" whatever nonsense the psyker is up to, which can be written as a Deny the Witch ability.
Crypteks should be able to Deny by default, as they are supposed to protect their equipment against the warp with special devices, as described in the 5th ed codex. Why wouldn't a cryptek carry around a gloom prism like device with him?

-Guardsman- wrote:
I beat on this drum often, but Drukhari need more HQ choices, so that they can field two kabalite battalions or two wych battalions while respecting the RO3 and without having to take special characters. Examples could include sub-Archons (Dracons), jetbike or hoverboard Succubi, and "super-Scourges" (perhaps with a sniper rule, since both Craftworlds and Harlequins have sniper characters but not Drukhari).

Can't Haemonculi get a weapon with sniper-like rules?

Frankly speaking though, quite a few armies are in the same place with regards to the concept of a 'lesser HQ'. Guard are there if someone wants to run Militarum Tempestus(there's 1 HQ choice for them that doesn't invalidate the doctrine), AdMech are in a similar spot(although theirs is mainly focused upon points for the HQs), and Tau are in a similar spot.
A lot of armies could benefit from a hard look at their HQ options...and it could potentially be exacerbated even more if GW decides to go with more restrictive doctrines down the road.


Regarding Necrons and Psyker tomfoolery:
I've always felt that it would be entirely appropriate to give them less of a 'Deny the Witch' rule and more of a 'Immutable Reality' rule. Give C'Tan(and Crypteks and maybe Overlords/Lords with a specific item) a rule allowing them and units within a certain distance to just potentially flatout ignore a Psyker's effects if the power is manifested within a range of them.

Necrons definately need some more diversity, and some help for their forces since Gauss lost it’s anti-tank ability (to equate it to pre-8th, it should have an ability that on a To Wound of 6, it should be AP -3 and do D6 damage).

 Stormonu wrote:
Necrons definately need some more diversity, and some help for their forces since Gauss lost it’s anti-tank ability (to equate it to pre-8th, it should have an ability that on a To Wound of 6, it should be AP -3 and do D6 damage).

Again, this isn't a faction specific thing. Anyone who had "Armourbane" can feel the same issue.

I really think though that Gauss being as strong as it could be versus vehicles needed to be addressed.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Necrons definately need some more diversity, and some help for their forces since Gauss lost it’s anti-tank ability (to equate it to pre-8th, it should have an ability that on a To Wound of 6, it should be AP -3 and do D6 damage).

Again, this isn't a faction specific thing. Anyone who had "Armourbane" can feel the same issue.

I really think though that Gauss being as strong as it could be versus vehicles needed to be addressed.

It absolutely is because Necrons had their haywire-esque gauss ability translated to -1 ap. It'd be like changing poison weapons to S4.

Gauss as AP-1 I think is fine, in terms of anti-vehicle effect it's not too far off from the original 3E/4E/5E functionality (autoglance on a 6), it's only in relation to 6E/7E vehicles when HP's were introduced (and the glut of rules and balance problems associated with them) that Gauss became really powerful. In all other cases, the AP -1 is substantially stronger than Gauss ever was previously.

The bigger issue is that the rest of the Necron AT options aren't particularly great, and you can't just throw unkillable Wraiths at everything and expect them to autoblend it to death anymore.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Necrons definately need some more diversity, and some help for their forces since Gauss lost it’s anti-tank ability (to equate it to pre-8th, it should have an ability that on a To Wound of 6, it should be AP -3 and do D6 damage).

Again, this isn't a faction specific thing. Anyone who had "Armourbane" can feel the same issue.

I really think though that Gauss being as strong as it could be versus vehicles needed to be addressed.

It absolutely is because Necrons had their haywire-esque gauss ability translated to -1 ap. It'd be like changing poison weapons to S4.

And Skitarii had Armourbane(2d6, added together, for armor penetration) on the Transauranic Arquebus to -2AP and D3 damage.
Galvanic Rifles went from having Precision Shots on to hit rolls of 6s to...wound rolls of 6s giving -1AP?

Everyone had something go wonky with the initial conversion to 8th. You're not as special as you think you are, Necrons.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

DudleyGrim wrote:
I ended up selling my Necrons due to how boring and vanilla of a faction they felt, especially after 6th edition revamped them.

HQs need some SERIOUS buffs, an Overlord should be a HELL of a lot better in CC for example. Crypteks NEED more utility and wargear options.

Stronger melee options in general. As a Xenos army, they need more tools to stand on their own. Buffs to units like Flayed Ones, and Tomb Spyders (Bring back scarab spam!) would greatly help add some diversity to the roster.

Lastly, more defense vs psykers. These guys HATE the warp and should have a few better options than a Warlord Trait and Tomb Spyders. Perhaps C'Tan could attempt to deny?

I know this isn't everybody's view on Necrons, but I have always felt that they were kind of like a Xenos Space Marine army, well rounded and fairly tough. A good army for beginners who aren't great at painting yet, and want a fairly straight forward army.

Yeah, the HQ types should be powerhouses.
They should, funnily enough, play like Tomb Kings / Vampire Counts. Lots of weak infantry supported by magic (C'tan powers and Cryptek toys. Bring back 5th staves), Special and Rare units (Lychguard, Destroyers, ect) and Lords / heroes (HQ types)
Immortals would be like Tomb / Grave Guard, warriors closer to skeleton archers.

Right now GW is trying to do this thing where they are kind of like marines in terms of stats and they are also sort of generalists with an emphasis on mid range shooting, but worse because GW didn't translate their Gauss rule over that well into 8th and they have this odd idea that Resurrection Protocols is super strong, even though it doesn't scale that well in higher point games, and it doesn't really work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As someone with no connection to Necrons (don't play them or against them) C'tan having anti-psychic properties would be a no-brainer, as would various units with null rods etc. that mess with the Warp. A system like the Chaplain/Dark Apostle buff could work for C'tan too.

C'tan hate the warp and have no power over it, so it would not be a no-brainer unless you want to smash the fluff.

True, C'tan wouldn't be able to deny the witch like a psyker could, but they could use their reality warping powers to "correct" whatever nonsense the psyker is up to, which can be written as a Deny the Witch ability.
Crypteks should be able to Deny by default, as they are supposed to protect their equipment against the warp with special devices, as described in the 5th ed codex. Why wouldn't a cryptek carry around a gloom prism like device with him?

Yeah, see this is exactly what I was thinking. The c'tan may not be able to directly face warp powers but they might use their mastery over the physical universe to strengthen the very fabric of space, making it harder for warp chicanery to weasel thru.

That was what I had in mind as well. If the Warp is anathema to the C'tan, then an argument could very well be made that they are anathema to the Warp as well.

I don't need new Xenos releases. I need the miniatures in the current armies I own brought up to date with modern materials and sculpts....

At the same time, I don't though, as I will not be paying GW's prices...so it's a bit of a non-factor for me.

Honestly new phoenix lord models and three new phoenix lords... Namely... The Warp Spider Phoenix Lord, the Shining Spear's Phoenix Lord, and the Phoenix Lord of the Eagle Pilots. I want to see more diversified eldar, and not just this hyper focus on the Ynnari who are just bland currently.

I would love to see a new kit for Dire Avengers that gives them more weapon diversity and a natural +6 invulnerable that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to have.

And hopefully I don't have to pay 230$ for subpar phoenix lord with gak stats, and removing their best skill....

I'd like a few new necron characters. Maybe a particularly vicious and cunning flayed one that can buff a FO unit. Also a master assassin who is basically a high powered deathmark, with better saves, stealth rules and a nastier rifle.

 Sobekta wrote:
I'd like a few new necron characters. Maybe a particularly vicious and cunning flayed one that can buff a FO unit. Also a master assassin who is basically a high powered deathmark, with better saves, stealth rules and a nastier rifle.

I would love for their to be a mr. jekyl and mr hyde Necron who is on the verge of the flayer virus and he can transition between the two when he activates his weapon and turns into a raving lunatic....

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I'd like a few new necron characters. Maybe a particularly vicious and cunning flayed one that can buff a FO unit. Also a master assassin who is basically a high powered deathmark, with better saves, stealth rules and a nastier rifle.

I would love for their to be a mr. jekyl and mr hyde Necron who is on the verge of the flayer virus and he can transition between the two when he activates his weapon and turns into a raving lunatic....

That's an idea!

 Sobekta wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Sobekta wrote:
I'd like a few new necron characters. Maybe a particularly vicious and cunning flayed one that can buff a FO unit. Also a master assassin who is basically a high powered deathmark, with better saves, stealth rules and a nastier rifle.

I would love for their to be a mr. jekyl and mr hyde Necron who is on the verge of the flayer virus and he can transition between the two when he activates his weapon and turns into a raving lunatic....

That's an idea!

There was a necron in one of the Blood Angel's book where one had Alzheimers and believes he is a living breathing Necrontyr. He was abosolutely crazy, setting up a dinner, and having a winery and everything, and most of his subjects had the flayer virus. So yeah would be cool.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Necrons definately need some more diversity, and some help for their forces since Gauss lost it’s anti-tank ability (to equate it to pre-8th, it should have an ability that on a To Wound of 6, it should be AP -3 and do D6 damage).

Again, this isn't a faction specific thing. Anyone who had "Armourbane" can feel the same issue.

I really think though that Gauss being as strong as it could be versus vehicles needed to be addressed.

It absolutely is because Necrons had their haywire-esque gauss ability translated to -1 ap. It'd be like changing poison weapons to S4.

Some guy on fb had an idea to make necrons more effective against armor and make gauss weapons more effective. He suggested bacons be allowed to fire gauss weapons eh masse at a vehicle (titan, dreadnought, whatevs) and score extra mortal wounds above any normal damage based on hits. For every so many hits a MW is scored due to thecumulative effect of massed gauss fire causing extra disintegration.

There was a lot of debate on how many hits to get a mw. 4-5 seemed right, and if there needed to be a cap on them, like 4-5. But it seemed like a good idea in general to bring back a little old necron flavor and make gauss weapons look like super advanced high tech weapons beyong human comprehension.

Honestly if GW had to follow WYSIWYG gauss weapons would have to be a lot better than they are. They build up necrons as just so super advanced and incredibly high technology, and their weapons basically don't really outdo bolters or tau pulse rifles. In fact they're way less powerful that tai pulse rifles in most ways.

If the effect of gauss weapons had to match the background they'd probably have to work like this.
https://youtu.be/Jjd_ry0p2F0

This might see more immortals with gauss showing up instead of mostly tesla immortals.

Hear me out, I'mma get crazy.

Look at Necromunda. That's a pretty dope-ass system, I tell you. Lots of fun, lots of things to do.

Now, look at Kill-Team. It's a gateway drug to 40k, and it's good for the new players, and good for people who wanna do a 40k thing but don't wanna spend a lot of money or drag out their whole army for a game.

Now, look at Kill-Team again and ask, "What if we took this concept and merged it with Necromunda to make a more robust skirmish game?"

Now, look at the potential for Xenos factions when you don't have to worry about making a full-spectrum force with them. Just a few dudes for a skirmish.

Do that, and the options are massive.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Hear me out, I'mma get crazy.

Look at Necromunda. That's a pretty dope-ass system, I tell you. Lots of fun, lots of things to do.

Now, look at Kill-Team. It's a gateway drug to 40k, and it's good for the new players, and good for people who wanna do a 40k thing but don't wanna spend a lot of money or drag out their whole army for a game.

Now, look at Kill-Team again and ask, "What if we took this concept and merged it with Necromunda to make a more robust skirmish game?"

Now, look at the potential for Xenos factions when you don't have to worry about making a full-spectrum force with them. Just a few dudes for a skirmish.

Do that, and the options are massive.

Enslavers... Hrud.... Crosairs.... Exodites.... Guevasa....

Yeah there is and it would be really awesome looking tbh.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Enslavers... Hrud.... Crosairs.... Exodites.... Guevasa....

Yeah there is and it would be really awesome looking tbh.

Oh, and it's a perfect way to bring in the Inquisition.

And if GW wants to be hesitant about "small skirmish game" models? Okay, so be it-

Add them to Blackstone Fortress, make Kill-Team and 40k rules for them, and let the players do the rest.

So I am thinking of like a warbands 40k essentially but focusing on wierd races, so it would be called War Hosts?

 Asherian Command wrote:
So I am thinking of like a warbands 40k essentially but focusing on wierd races, so it would be called War Hosts?

You wanna hear the best possible thing they could do, in my opinion?

Release all these little 'mini-factions' like the ones we discussed- all those oddball Xenos. Then all the little small factions like Inquisition, Rogue Traders, Arbites, variant Chaos Cults (for each god). Make them usable in Blackstone Fortress, that way there's more than one reason to buy and possibly more than one type of player that will buy it. Give these mini-factions KIll-Team and 40k rules, because you gotta. Now, just right here- you've got 3 reasons to buy some of these models, not counting "just to have the new models".

Now, take Necromunda's basic system, but make it D10 rather than D6 so the threshold of the stats accommodates a wider range of abilities beyond regular humans. Keep all the cool little customization that makes Necromunda cool, with all the options to really make each person an individual character in their own way. Allow 'customized units' so people can create whatever they feel best suits whatever stats they choose, and incorporate all the 40k stuff from Aeldari to Astartes, and all the flavors from Xenos to Heretics to Loyalists.

Add in some option for some kind of 'lite role-playing' narrative, dungeon crawling, and if you want- repack some of the terrain and sell it for this game. Why not, right?

Call it "Inquisitor".

Yes, like the old game. Less clunky, and now damned near any box of dudes on the shelf is an option for your game. Now, these cool unique factions have a perfect little home for their narrative. Now you're buying kits you never knew you'd want, just to make that really crazy campaign with your friends.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That was what I had in mind as well. If the Warp is anathema to the C'tan, then an argument could very well be made that they are anathema to the Warp as well.

Fire is anathema to humans, do humans carry around fire extinguishers on themselves at all times? When you introduce a rule that lets them deny what story are you telling on the tabletop? That C'tan can easily dispel powers or that they can't control it? When a C'tan gets destroyed by Smite despite his 4+ invul, does that tell the story of someone that can easily dispel powers or that they can't control it? Now if you want to tell the story that they can't control it which option do you go for? You could say that Astra Militarum don't like being on fire, so of course, they bring fire extinguishers into battle, but that would tell the opposite story on the tabletop, they actually don't mind fire that much, they can deal with it pretty easily with their fire extinguishers. Maybe instead C'tan should be vulnerable to psychic powers, so when you bring them it might be worth it to have a lot of Warriors to shield them or Spyders with gloom prisms to stop them from being hit by Smite, that's telling the story of your setting with appropriate game mechanics. Just like if Orks had a major weakness it would be more thematic if they had a fire truck than if they just all carried foam grenades to quell flamers, you'd never see their weakness, only the tools they developed to combat it. Now I want an Ork firetruck, with a big bubble sprayer and flamers, bubble sprayer for extinguishing flames and flamers for setting things on fire.

What if all Necron units were harder to target with Psykic powers because of their lack of presence in the Warp, with some variation, Warriors dampen the Warp, making Psykers within X" have a penalty to thier rolls? They could guve us Blackstone Pylons as fortifications, they'd make all Psykers in Y" (big, say 12") roll an extra die and take the lowest 2 when casting. Canoptek (non gloom prism) and C'tan Shard units would have no effects either way, Lychgaurd and other Pariah descendants could have an ever stronger dampening effect than Warriors.

We shouldn't stop all Psyker powers, we should make them Very Difficult, it's still one of the goals to seal the Warp from Realspace, the Great Work, still exists?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Necrons definately need some more diversity, and some help for their forces since Gauss lost it’s anti-tank ability (to equate it to pre-8th, it should have an ability that on a To Wound of 6, it should be AP -3 and do D6 damage).

Again, this isn't a faction specific thing. Anyone who had "Armourbane" can feel the same issue.

I really think though that Gauss being as strong as it could be versus vehicles needed to be addressed.

It absolutely is because Necrons had their haywire-esque gauss ability translated to -1 ap. It'd be like changing poison weapons to S4.

And Skitarii had Armourbane(2d6, added together, for armor penetration) on the Transauranic Arquebus to -2AP and D3 damage.
Galvanic Rifles went from having Precision Shots on to hit rolls of 6s to...wound rolls of 6s giving -1AP?

Everyone had something go wonky with the initial conversion to 8th. You're not as special as you think you are, Necrons.

Transauranic arquebuses are an improvement over your basic gun while firing at tanks right? You still have another specialist weapon in the plasma caliver to deal with tanks right? Necrons came out with Doomsday Arks, Doom Scythes, Heavy Destroyers, Monoliths and Triarch Stalker in terms of ranged anti-vehicle at the start of 8th (none of which were amazing), with the codex Destroyers and Tesseract Vaults also became anti-vehicle units and the Doomsday Ark improved as an anti-tank unit. Necrons lost Warriors, gauss Immortals and Tomb Blades, Ghost Arks, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes and Obelisks in terms of ranged anti-vehicle, no you didn't have it as bad as the Necrons. You didn't have to bring a FW unit just to have some proper anti-tank in your list because your core troops stopped having an effect on vehicles, because you had another specialist weapon for it. Haywire guns became less deadly in 8th, but gauss lost the effect entirely and no losing precision shots is not the same as losing access to the core anti-tank guns of your faction. Because Doomsday Arks were not meant to be tank hunters, Triarch Stalkers and Monoliths are support units, so Necrons were reduced to a couple of lascannons strapped to a model that is forced to move every turn with -1 to hit and Heavy Destroyers from having the greatest anti-tank arsenal in the game. So stop imagining you were in the same boat as Necrons. Anti-tank is so much of the Necron identity and they lost it with 8th.

Gauss as AP-1 I think is fine, in terms of anti-vehicle effect it's not too far off from the original 3E/4E/5E functionality (autoglance on a 6), it's only in relation to 6E/7E vehicles when HP's were introduced (and the glut of rules and balance problems associated with them) that Gauss became really powerful. In all other cases, the AP -1 is substantially stronger than Gauss ever was previously.

The bigger issue is that the rest of the Necron AT options aren't particularly great, and you can't just throw unkillable Wraiths at everything and expect them to autoblend it to death anymore.

It's also not any better than a boltgun in tactical doctrine or three lasguns, I am not satisfied with that. Gauss got stronger against Sv 2+, 3+ and 4+, weaker against 5+, stayed the same against 6+, no it was not an improvement over 6th/7th, it might be an improvement over 4th. 108 shots killed a Rhino or Land Raider in 4th, now it takes 99 and 432 to kill a Rhino and a Land Raider respectively and you'll have a lesser effect on it until it is fully destroyed than in 4th. I do think 27 and 36 shots of 6th/7th was too little, but tanks were weak to haywire effects in this era.

Necron AT options are perfectly okay currently, but try and make a list relying on Warriors, Ghost Arks, Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes to destroy tanks and you'll destroy 1 tank a game. Especially Leman Russes are impossible to do anything to, something that'd be easily dealt with in the past.

Maybe c'tan could be given anti tank powers... Somethjng really good at armor cracking.

 Sobekta wrote:
Maybe c'tan could be given anti tank powers... Somethjng really good at armor cracking.

I think it would be a mistake to tie necrons anti-tank to c'tans myself I can't imagine necrons have sufficant numbers of c'tan shards that they can afford to deploy them in every battle, so something as simple as tank support is something they should have an answer too. that said, Necon anti-tank should be designed with the eldar in mind (given the whole back story) so their anti-tank should be designed for fast moving ahrd to hit fragile tanks more so then optimized to take on brutish land raiders and the like (this would mean medium strength, rapid fire so that's awesome for the 'crons this addition)

you could then make Ct'ans something the necrons could bring out if they need to crack heavy heavy heavy armor.