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BrianDavion wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Never said Marines aren't powerful. I said people need to stop being Hysterical about them being "omfg too powerful the game is ruined god save us all can't play anymore"

IMHO a lotta the hysteria is increased by general marine resentment. not saying it's baseless people whining about a faction they dislike, but people who resent marines getting stuff it acts as a bit of a "force multipler" for them

This is really it. If it wasn't dragged out for literal months it wouldn't be as big of an issue. Marines get the most toys and they get them before anyone else which is annoying but also fine. The new Chapter Tactics were previewed on Aug 5th. Its approaching the end of October. Other than the Eldar PA book the last time another faction got something was July 6th when the Chaos Knight pre-orders went up. Add in the fact that unlike codexes there is no guarantee that other armies will get the same treatment, combine it with "aHAhahaHA GW never said Year of the Xenos" so people won't believe the all the Wave 2.0 speculation, and it makes sense why people start to hate marines. It's equally annoying that marine players have been complaining "OMG STUNTY MARINES AREN'T GOING TO BE SUPPORTED ANYMORE" without any evidence to support this while turning around to state "Don't worry your army will totally be supported just like marines were" again without any evidence.

I guess it's only ok to freak out over things that hurt marines and every other army needs to shut up and take it.

In fairness there was a substantial model release, and it can't all be done at once. Death Guard were dragged out even further, as they had even more models being released.

 Ishagu wrote:
If you're happy with Alaitoc flyer spam that's good for you. Just stop crying and being Hysterical about anything else.

You don't even know what I mean by detachment limitation

I'm not. The failure to change Alaitoc to mirror RG in the eldar """""""""""""""""""""""""2.0"""""""""""""""""" release that just happened was one of the biggest failings of it. Eldar chapter tactics are still hideously badly balanced vs each other and other factions. Alaitoc is way too good, and look at all the stuff IH got piled onto their 6+++ trait to make it worth considering - Ulthwe didn't get any of that lol.

Alaitoc is still broken.

Ulthwe or one of the better combos of pick-your-own tactics is what you choose if you don't want your opponents to hate you.

Saim-Hann, Iyanden, and Biel-Tan are still trash.

Good balance, 2.0 achieved?

This is why I am suggesting a limitation on the flyer detachment. Make it a single air wing detachment per 2k points, and each detachment is 1-3 flyers.

The models and rules are just as good, but no one flooding the board with 6 - 10 flyers. Leads to more varied lists without putting models out of play.

 Ishagu wrote:
This is why I am suggesting a limitation on the flyer detachment. Make it a single air wing detachment per 2k points, and each detachment is 1-3 flyers.

The models and rules are just as good, but no one flooding the board with 6 - 10 flyers. Leads to more varied lists without putting models out of play.

is there still a flyer slot in the battalion detachment? Because I can still take 5 CHs with your flyer wing fix and a battalion. Seems like not a fix.

Yeah that would have to go as well. Units shouldn't be made irrelevant, eg: Castellan.

But if flyers were limited in number it stops the spam whilst keeping the actual models just as potent in a more varied list.

 Ordana wrote:
And I will argue GW didn't know how to fix them either, and still doesn't.

They threw an entire bucket of special rules at Space Marines instead of trying to balance the army in the existing framework.

Blanket +1 attack, semi blanket -1 ap. On top of the Super Doctrine bonus and some hilariously broken stratagems.

Two of the MOST COMMON complaints about marines were lack of melee prowess and no AP on bolters. Tah dah!

It's also a little backwards for people to talk all day long how predators et al are trash (knights being the gold standard of what to kill), because they don't have an invuln. Now that marines punch armor better its a huge problem for models without an invuln. Pick a lane, guys.

 Ishagu wrote:
...Hysterical...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 Ishagu wrote:

You don't even know what I mean by detachment limitation

Given that this is a discussion board perhaps you should explain it better (or at all) then? I do find it funny that apparently there's no big problem but we just need to wait for GW to fix the broken mess of IH rules, and possibly the IF rules, maybe Black Templar (who knows at this point?). Then, hopefully, SM won't be so dominant in the future - fingers crossed! Oh, and while we're at it, we can mess about with the detachment system too. But everything's fine, honest!

I know exactly what I means, and it applies to the frothing and outraged minority who spam this forum with complaints and posts about their fears instead of actually going out and playing the game.
Maybe you need to check the definition yourself.

 Ishagu wrote:
I know exactly what I means, and it applies to the frothing and outraged minority who spam this forum with complaints and posts about their fears instead of actually going out and playing the game.
Maybe you need to check the definition yourself.

Oh irony, thy name is the Chemical Ali of Dakka...

I don't complain about the game, and I'm perfectly happy to defend something I like. I certainly didn't make the multiple topics on this forum that are all about incessant complaining.

 Ishagu wrote:
In fairness there was a substantial model release, and it can't all be done at once. Death Guard were dragged out even further, as they had even more models being released.

But were Death Guard the only army getting things at the time? I highly doubt there were 2 months of almost completely uninterrupted Death Guard. Between now and July the ONLY non-Loyalist faction to get something were the Eldar. Btw the answer is no because the IG got their Codex October 2017 while the Death Guard got theirs September 2017.

 Ishagu wrote:
The most powerful combos aren't worth worrying about as you will very rarely face them on the tabletop

In my casual group, Marines now hit harder than any other faction and can take more punishment in return. Nobody else's basic troops compare with 17pt Intercessors firing twice at AP-2 out to 30" whether or not they moved. For all the discussion over how OP Guardsmen are, even Tac Marines now beat Guardsmen in a straight fight, let alone Intercessors. They outshoot Tau, for that matter. Good on GW for finally making it such that a fluffy list can also be an effective one, but for us non-Marine players it's an unpleasant experience.

Competitive players may look at how Marines perform against Alaitoc air wing, triptide, Knights/loyal 32/smash caps, and other meta lists, and declare the balance to be fine. Good for them. That's not the same game we're playing, and the new Marine rules have broken ours.

 Ishagu wrote:
I don't complain about the game, and I'm perfectly happy to defend something I like. I certainly didn't make the multiple topics on this forum that are all about incessant complaining.

This thread is about complaining....it literally says so in the title

Slipspace wrote:

What's interesting is that the power of the new Space Marines has been backed up by tournament data and player analysis and also forced GW into a fairly unprecedented nerfing of the IH less than two weeks after they came out. That tells you how badly designed and balanced they are.

No. This tells you how reactive and balance-minded GW is.

At the end of 7th, they released the monster that was electro-displacement.
A deathstar list so dumb anyone could wreck most good players with it, and it was outlawed in many serious events that prior to that never even thought of nerfing Taudar, Seer Council, Beaststar and other builds that were definitely nasty.
To my knowledge, GW did not fix ED, and certainly did not fix it in two weeks.



What is laughable is the "good old days" people who constantly tell us it's the worst it's ever been.
I'd like to see in what rules balance way 8th is worse than 7th, 7th worse than 6th, 6th worse than 5th and so on.

All those with their eyes open have witnessed that 8th is infinitely more balanced and has seen more diversity at the top than any other prior edition.
7th was also much better than 6th, and saw more variety
etc.

Or did you really forget about:

2nd ed general WTF
3rd ed exarchs
4th ed some crap
5th ed Leafblower / GK
6th ed croissants / Tau / Seerstar
7th ed Electro Displacement

None of these horrible dominating builds lived less than 6 months, and here we get a nerf to some OP crap in two fething weeks.

I'll say, thanks GW.

Argive wrote:Im not surprised you cant see the problem all the way from your high horse.... insulting and condescending people is a sure fire way to have them double down and disagree with your POV. Surely you should be able to accept the glaring OPness of some of the stuff?

I play eldar and ive been hating the alitoic trait CHE combo or ynnari because its unhealthy for the game, uniteractive and was/is sadly an auto take to.a lot of people because its soo good...

Would i say "nothing to see here its all fine" just because it benefits my beloved faction? Hell no. Id call it out for what it is advocate nerfs for my own broken stuff if it means better overall balance. The new CHE power is imo is an example. It's bad as it makes them more of an auto take.. I want my opponent to have a game they can enjoy and not get curb stomped on their friday night gameing session.

The fun lists i had to play with our sm players now dont offer a balanced game.. its a steamroll.. so being forced into taking an airwing and min maxing hardcore just to have an even footing on a casual? No thanks. Id not wish that on my opponents.

thats my main problem with the marine release, even in casual games, i have to pull out a strong list if i want to compete.

Ishagu wrote:I know exactly what I means, and it applies to the frothing and outraged minority who spam this forum with complaints and posts about their fears instead of actually going out and playing the game.
Maybe you need to check the definition yourself.

What if i told you that i did play games against the new marines multiple times. What if i also told you that even when they were bringing casual lists, my stronger lists were stuggling.What if i told you that factions getting 5+ free rules was impossible to balance and especially if the points value are all the same no matter which color your power armor is.

I'm glad that marines got updated, the old book sucked. Now they have better options and are definetly more powerful. but the way they chose to buff them is simply impossible to balance in the end. They introduced too many different rules combination and yet chose to keep a single pts cost for the models.

Also, cut out that condescending crap, its really fething annoying and makes people just want to argue more with you.

I don't understand Galois theory. It must be borken and therefore banned.

I'm leaving this locked as nothing good will come from this all.