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2019/10/24 10:40:28
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
Ishagu wrote: Super Doctrines are a fantastic idea. They make units that are the same on paper play very differently from sub faction to sub faction.
There is nothing wrong with them at all. The only "problem" that remains is the IH flyer spam that will probably be fixed in a future FAQ addressing flyers in general. Not worth the panic.
I'm not entirely informed about those super-doctrinies, but in another thread you state that USRs affect different units differently and hence are bad....but if this super doctrines do it, it let's you "play the same unit very differently"
You have failed to grasp what I am saying, clearly. The super Doctrines are DIFFERENT rules. They aren't USRs. one chapter gets a certain Doctine, a different chapter gets another. These rules change the way units function and create more variety in the way armies play.
This isn't a USR issue, and more variety is good for the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyranid Horde wrote: The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
Stats don't tell the full picture. What if Marines are just as good as Eldar, but 4x more players bring them to tournaments? You'd expect them to win 4x more events. The Ultramarines have a 52% win rate after the new codex and supplement. That is certainly not broken. Other lists with more exotic rules need some time for the community to absorb and learn to play against.
It's too early to declare the whole Codex as over-powered. I have already said there are certain rules in supplements that need adjustments and GW has shown they are quick to do so. Before they adjusted the Iron Hands they were quick to neft the Chronus + Scorpius combo.
Is a two week wait for an FAQ too much for you?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 10:51:02
-~Ishagu~-
2019/10/24 10:49:56
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Tyranid Horde wrote: The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
You know what's getting really old is people throwing every marine under the bus because iron hands.
It's like saying all drukari are broken because of profits of flesh or Eldar are all alitoc and the codex should be nerfed for alitoc flyer spam to be balanced.
Knights got made an unplayable mess because of soup and then choas.
Choas is still a soupy mess requiring 3 Codex's and supliment to pic and mix.
Nerf the rules that are actually causing a problem and stop trying to ban marines for the sins on the iron hands.
2019/10/24 10:51:11
Subject: Re:3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
can we please stop arguing this fething point over and over and over like a fething broken record. it's beyond old. Marine players who are happy with their new toys are not going to suddenly burn their books/mini collection whatever, people whom have concluded Marine supplements are the anti-christ aren't going to be swayed by arguements (the only way eaither side is going to be swayed is getting out there are playing games) seriously, the horse is dead.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/10/24 10:52:11
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Agreed!
What's even more hilarious is that the Iron Hands were recently nerfed significantly, and there isn't enough information about their performance post nerf to accuse them of anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: can we please stop arguing this fething point over and over and over like a fething broken record. it's beyond old. Marine players who are happy with their new toys are not going to suddenly burn their books/mini collection whatever, people whom have concluded Marine supplements are the anti-christ aren't going to be swayed by arguements (the only way eaither side is going to be swayed is getting out there are playing games) seriously, the horse is dead.
Sure, go and complain in all the topics crying about "overpowered" Astartes and ask those to shut down.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 10:53:39
-~Ishagu~-
2019/10/24 10:54:20
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Tyranid Horde wrote: The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
You know what's getting really old is people throwing every marine under the bus because iron hands.
It's like saying all drukari are broken because of profits of flesh or Eldar are all alitoc and the codex should be nerfed for alitoc flyer spam to be balanced.
Knights got made an unplayable mess because of soup and then choas.
Choas is still a soupy mess requiring 3 Codex's and supliment to pic and mix.
Nerf the rules that are actually causing a problem and stop trying to ban marines for the sins on the iron hands.
I'm not throwing every marine under the bus, but the power level is very high for Raven Guard and Ultras and they've escaped pretty well based on their Iron Handed friends being stupid.
@Ishagu, what does it actually take for you to accept the point of view of others? Stats aren't enough? That's hard data and I would say most competitive players bandwagon onto the next most powerful thing quite quickly. I also did not declare the whole codex was overpowered, but stats don't lie, regardless of representation in a certain tournament. I highly doubt everyone who played in those tournaments had an Iron Hands army on their shelf lamenting "some day". The fact GW had to fix so much in a short space of time shows how little they understand their own game to release rules like those that were changed in the FAQ.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 10:58:22
Agreed!
What's even more hilarious is that the Iron Hands were recently nerfed significantly, and there isn't enough information about their performance post nerf to accuse them of anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: can we please stop arguing this fething point over and over and over like a fething broken record. it's beyond old. Marine players who are happy with their new toys are not going to suddenly burn their books/mini collection whatever, people whom have concluded Marine supplements are the anti-christ aren't going to be swayed by arguements (the only way eaither side is going to be swayed is getting out there are playing games) seriously, the horse is dead.
Sure, go and complain in all the topics crying about "overpowered" Astartes and ask those to shut down.
I'm just tired of the arguement, no one's convincing anyone, and chances are in 3 months or so the community will have a new sign of the apoclypse or whatever. (I figure eldar are getting a new codex in 3-6 months.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 10:56:19
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/10/24 10:55:13
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
The Super Doctrine isn't a singular rule, and you categorically cannot state that it's a problem. How many games have you played using each chapter against every faction?
@Sunny Side Up
If a faction is the most powerful, but only wins a few extra % of games is it still OP? If you are expecting perfect balance you will NEVER find it. If your problem lies with Astartes being the best then you have a toxic attitude. You can't declare something as blanket OP until the community has adjusted to it after some time. There are certain examples of rules which are poorly written or obviously too strong, and GW has shown time and again that they will adjust them with FAQs.
soul burst was something that was one faction only, it got faqed multiple times, as were some of the units that were using it a lot.It did not fix a thing, other then maybe made people buy a few different units, unless someone started with a soup flyer list in8th. In the enditt took castellans and a GW ultra nerf to reign it in. And it is not like they made soul burst a mangable options for Inari armies. No, GW just killed the army with a WD codex. That is how they fix stuff in 8th. Instead of maybe checking if there is something wrong with tau commanders and suits internal balanced, with hive tyrants etc they just nerf whole rule sets in to the ground.
This is not a question of perfect balance. this is a question of armies with some armies sitting with win rates around 50-60%, and others being stuck at 30% or lower.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/10/24 11:01:54
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
52% win rate for Ultras since codex and supplement release doesn't indicate anything over-powered.
You're misreading me, I didn't say Ultras were overpowered, I said they were powerful. Very different there and it doesn't take a lot to read things properly. 52% win rate is pretty decent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 11:02:49
Very few factions are performing this badly, mainly old Astartes books and Grey Knights. I agree they need updates.
@Tyranid Horde
It's worse than Tau, Eldar, Orks. Yet people are claiming all Astartes need rules to be toned down. It's the exact Hysteria that this topic exposes and why I am telling people to use it as a lesson.
Where are the dozens of topics shouting for Ork nerfs, right now? They are literally winning more than the brand new Ultramarines book. It's the typical case of hobbyists who don't even play that much over-reacting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 11:04:56
-~Ishagu~-
2019/10/24 11:02:32
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Irrelevant in the grand scheme of the last few years since 8th edition. Astartes are the most popular faction, so you'll see more if they play well not just due to their strength.
The time window is kind of a relevant to to people that didn't play in 7th ed. I mean, am not suddenly warming inside, because of that fact that GK were awesome for a few months in 4th or 5th edition. Why should someone be happy that stuff is, maybe, different in 8th. Specially if their army is bad. Also I don't have enough knowladge about prior editions, but how the hell can the rules can be that different, when they are designed by the same people that designed the rules in prior editions. That is like saying that this time that party is not going to screw you over, because this time they have a new party name.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/10/24 11:03:49
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Tyranid Horde wrote: The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
You know what's getting really old is people throwing every marine under the bus because iron hands.
It's like saying all drukari are broken because of profits of flesh or Eldar are all alitoc and the codex should be nerfed for alitoc flyer spam to be balanced.
Knights got made an unplayable mess because of soup and then choas.
Choas is still a soupy mess requiring 3 Codex's and supliment to pic and mix.
Nerf the rules that are actually causing a problem and stop trying to ban marines for the sins on the iron hands.
I'm not throwing every marine under the bus, but the power level is very high for Raven Guard and Ultras and they've escaped pretty well based on their Iron Handed friends being stupid.
How is Ultramarines 49.04% win ratio with 45 lists for or October how is that very powerful?
Alitoc 69 lists with 50.13 win ratio
Catachan 35 lists 51.56 win ratio
2019/10/24 11:05:08
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I just have to shake my head. People claiming the super doctrine is fine. I can easily promise this, if all factions got such over the top treatment with similar strength given the salty sea of Marine tears would be legendary.
I could just imagine the ranting rage fits if Guard had super doctrines. They aren't just fine. If you think so its just really because you benefit from them and so many other factions do not.
For what it's worth, I really hope GW likewise buff up all other forces like so, just so we see how awful of an idea it is.
The Super Doctrine isn't a singular rule, and you categorically cannot state that it's a problem. How many games have you played using each chapter against every faction?
@Sunny Side Up
If a faction is the most powerful, but only wins a few extra % of games is it still OP? If you are expecting perfect balance you will NEVER find it. If your problem lies with Astartes being the best then you have a toxic attitude. You can't declare something as blanket OP until the community has adjusted to it after some time. There are certain examples of rules which are poorly written or obviously too strong, and GW has shown time and again that they will adjust them with FAQs.
Yes, all the Super Doctrines are a single rule that are a perfect example of Power Creep and ruin the game. You have yet to show they are balanced.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/10/24 11:06:16
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Ice_can is showing exactly why the online hysteria is going too far. People do need to calm down, and they do need to stop worrying about things they don't even have to face in most games lol
@Slayer_Fan
49% win rate for Ultras with their super doctrine in the month of October is categorical proof that it isn't over-powered. You need to do some research before you start making hysterical statements.
You also made some really silly comment in the topic about the Impulsor. Haven't you learned yet? Calm down
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 11:08:44
-~Ishagu~-
2019/10/24 11:19:44
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Tyranid Horde wrote: The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
You know what's getting really old is people throwing every marine under the bus because iron hands.
It's like saying all drukari are broken because of profits of flesh or Eldar are all alitoc and the codex should be nerfed for alitoc flyer spam to be balanced.
Knights got made an unplayable mess because of soup and then choas.
Choas is still a soupy mess requiring 3 Codex's and supliment to pic and mix.
Nerf the rules that are actually causing a problem and stop trying to ban marines for the sins on the iron hands.
I'm not throwing every marine under the bus, but the power level is very high for Raven Guard and Ultras and they've escaped pretty well based on their Iron Handed friends being stupid.
How is Ultramarines 49.04% win ratio with 45 lists for or October how is that very powerful?
Alitoc 69 lists with 50.13 win ratio
Catachan 35 lists 51.56 win ratio
If you consider Alaitoc and their flyer spam to be powerful then a 1% difference isn't that much so that would mean Ultras are on the curve of powerful. Or if you want to consider Alaitoc to be balanced then Ultras are balanced.
Never said Marines aren't powerful. I said people need to stop being Hysterical about them being "omfg too powerful the game is ruined god save us all can't play anymore"
-~Ishagu~-
2019/10/24 11:36:01
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Ishagu wrote: Never said Marines aren't powerful. I said people need to stop being Hysterical about them being "omfg too powerful the game is ruined god save us all can't play anymore"
IMHO a lotta the hysteria is increased by general marine resentment. not saying it's baseless people whining about a faction they dislike, but people who resent marines getting stuff it acts as a bit of a "force multipler" for them
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/10/24 11:49:16
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Ishagu wrote: Never said Marines aren't powerful. I said people need to stop being Hysterical about them being "omfg too powerful the game is ruined god save us all can't play anymore"
Just wanna pop in here to point out that between you, Davion and a couple others, like...60-70% of the posts in this thread are people whining about people whining. You're posting nearly twice as much as anyone else who is actually complaining, and calling people 'hysterical' while claiming that people are calling you names like "marine apologist" which has only been typed in this thread by...you guys, complaining about it.
Personally, I'm glad marines got a power boost, they needed it. What annoys me is that A) it was a power boost in a very weird direction - I don't think I'm alone in thinking the main problem marines had was they felt like they were made of paper, and instead they got their damage cranked up to 9001 and B) they did so by slapping an extra layer of benefit onto them in the form of the doctrines that nobody else has, and the rumors from PA seem to indicate nobody else is getting, even Chaos Marines who suffer all the exact same problems marines had, or the (still terrible) other marine codexes that got 1/2 of the rules boosts but not the other 1/2.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 11:53:52
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/10/24 11:55:07
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
At the start of the edition, people were spamming conscripts to farm CP. To fix this, rather than, say tweak the way hordes interact with the game, they just raised the cost until they were virtually the same as regular guardsmen. I'm probably not the only one who though it felt like a all-too-small bandaid on an altogether too deep wound.
Nearly every soup list you see at a high level to this day still uses horde infantry to farm CP.
When GWFAQ'd Iron Hands, it kinda felt like the same thing. Some nerfs, sure, like ferrios and the dred, but some stuff like mortars remains as high-powered as ever. Anyone wanting competitive Iron Hands kind of has no option but to use those same units, because their rules are still imbalanced, just in a slightly different way...
Super Doctrines seem to some to be a dangerous kind of power creep, despite the claim that 8th would learn from the mistakes of previous editions. But what, 2 years in, we've got the same flavour of the month mega-skew going on, while a host of armies languish with genuinely really poor rules. GW said that they were going to try and make a balanced game FROM THE OUTSET, and yet the consistently don't, and then when the time comes to fix it, they offer unconvincing quick fixes, with a promise that they'll tidy it up properly in chapter approved, just as long as the customer remembers to fork out for that.
For someone who trumpets that they've been in the hobby for 20+ years, you sure seem like you have a tough time accepting that other people might have different takes on things, without being "hysterical".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/24 11:55:54
2019/10/24 12:01:17
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Tyranid Horde wrote: The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
You know what's getting really old is people throwing every marine under the bus because iron hands.
It's like saying all drukari are broken because of profits of flesh or Eldar are all alitoc and the codex should be nerfed for alitoc flyer spam to be balanced.
Knights got made an unplayable mess because of soup and then choas.
Choas is still a soupy mess requiring 3 Codex's and supliment to pic and mix.
Nerf the rules that are actually causing a problem and stop trying to ban marines for the sins on the iron hands.
I'm not throwing every marine under the bus, but the power level is very high for Raven Guard and Ultras and they've escaped pretty well based on their Iron Handed friends being stupid.
How is Ultramarines 49.04% win ratio with 45 lists for or October how is that very powerful?
Alitoc 69 lists with 50.13 win ratio
Catachan 35 lists 51.56 win ratio
If you consider Alaitoc and their flyer spam to be powerful then a 1% difference isn't that much so that would mean Ultras are on the curve of powerful. Or if you want to consider Alaitoc to be balanced then Ultras are balanced.
Alitoc airforce is not a fun game and though that's more -3 or -4 to hit in a D6 system is terrible games design.
It's a very powerful/game breaking mechanic that probably hides very well how bad the base codex actually is.
It's like people saying Marinws 1.0 was fine because of Guilliman, no he was broken game design propping up a dumpster fire of a codex.
If we remove a lot of the problem rules I suspect short term the game balance will go terribly wrong but with some of the rules currently in place marines are inline with the field. Either a few other factions need the same or GW need to learn game design. Nerfing marines back to codex 1.0 power won't balance the game it's just creating another unplayable codex. Imperial Soup is Guard plus mostly knight's for a good reason.
2019/10/24 12:03:21
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Ishagu wrote: Super Doctrines are a fantastic idea. They make units that are the same on paper play very differently from sub faction to sub faction.
There is nothing wrong with them at all. The only "problem" that remains is the IH flyer spam that will probably be fixed in a future FAQ addressing flyers in general. Not worth the panic.
Do you want balanced game that encourages fluffy armies? If yes they are lol bad idea
2019/10/24 12:06:08
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Ishagu wrote: Never said Marines aren't powerful. I said people need to stop being Hysterical about them being "omfg too powerful the game is ruined god save us all can't play anymore"
IMHO a lotta the hysteria is increased by general marine resentment. not saying it's baseless people whining about a faction they dislike, but people who resent marines getting stuff it acts as a bit of a "force multipler" for them
I also think its a bit of the way people act, when people try and get 40k back here, it was 3 marine players telling players to jump back in. Even if GW fix nothing that we left over. In a sense, it was not a issue until they needed us after 40k collapse. But dont worry, No Eldar welcome was the first thing i hear expressing interest again.
But realistically, this was all created by GW. Marines get lots of support, good or bad. Some others just get to sit for years watching And then we get told, be happy with what you got by marine players. Off coarse, its not that simple. But sometimes its the way it feels.
2019/10/24 12:09:00
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Im not surprised you cant see the problem all the way from your high horse.... insulting and condescending people is a sure fire way to have them double down and disagree with your POV. Surely you should be able to accept the glaring OPness of some of the stuff?
I play eldar and ive been hating the alitoic trait CHE combo or ynnari because its unhealthy for the game, uniteractive and was/is sadly an auto take to.a lot of people because its soo good...
Would i say "nothing to see here its all fine" just because it benefits my beloved faction? Hell no. Id call it out for what it is advocate nerfs for my own broken stuff if it means better overall balance. The new CHE power is imo is an example. It's bad as it makes them more of an auto take.. I want my opponent to have a game they can enjoy and not get curb stomped on their friday night gameing session.
The fun lists i had to play with our sm players now dont offer a balanced game.. its a steamroll.. so being forced into taking an airwing and min maxing hardcore just to have an even footing on a casual? No thanks. Id not wish that on my opponents.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Tyranid Horde wrote: The domination of the faction and the broken rules that were fixed and those yet to be released set a precedent similar to how things were in 7th.
No game has perfect balance but if we use card games like MtG or Hearthstone for example, where thousands of games a day are played, the stats show that even a win rate of a few % higher is enough to be oppressively strong and the tournament data from the past two weeks shows the same for space marines except the win rate is a massive margin.
Get down from your high horse and stop insulting people for not sharing the same view as you. Marines are bad for the game like Taudar before it and many more, it's not a simple matter of people complaining because they're getting some love.
You know what's getting really old is people throwing every marine under the bus because iron hands.
It's like saying all drukari are broken because of profits of flesh or Eldar are all alitoc and the codex should be nerfed for alitoc flyer spam to be balanced.
Knights got made an unplayable mess because of soup and then choas.
Choas is still a soupy mess requiring 3 Codex's and supliment to pic and mix.
Nerf the rules that are actually causing a problem and stop trying to ban marines for the sins on the iron hands.
I'm not throwing every marine under the bus, but the power level is very high for Raven Guard and Ultras and they've escaped pretty well based on their Iron Handed friends being stupid.
How is Ultramarines 49.04% win ratio with 45 lists for or October how is that very powerful?
Alitoc 69 lists with 50.13 win ratio Catachan 35 lists 51.56 win ratio
If you consider Alaitoc and their flyer spam to be powerful then a 1% difference isn't that much so that would mean Ultras are on the curve of powerful. Or if you want to consider Alaitoc to be balanced then Ultras are balanced.
Alitoc airforce is not a fun game and though that's more -3 or -4 to hit in a D6 system is terrible games design. It's a very powerful/game breaking mechanic that probably hides very well how bad the base codex actually is. It's like people saying Marinws 1.0 was fine because of Guilliman, no he was broken game design propping up a dumpster fire of a codex.
If we remove a lot of the problem rules I suspect short term the game balance will go terribly wrong but with some of the rules currently in place marines are inline with the field. Either a few other factions need the same or GW need to learn game design. Nerfing marines back to codex 1.0 power won't balance the game it's just creating another unplayable codex. Imperial Soup is Guard plus mostly knight's for a good reason.
I'm not discussing internal balance here, GW can't do that very well either but if you're going to compare win rates, internal balance of a codex doesn't matter because those win rates represent the use of a few very powerful units. Using win rates is a pretty good estimation of how powerful a competitive army is, and a 1% difference shows that.
You're correct though, nerfing them into the ground just creates more problems, and there are already a lot of them in this game.
EDIT: +1 to Argive, sums up my sentiment about Eldar in their current state pretty well. Without an air wing, Eldar aren't bad but they're not great either. People will still complain about the codex as a whole based on the Crimson Hunter.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/24 12:13:47
They ARE fluffy. The IH flyer spam can be fixed by altering the matched play detachments.
Alter general rule to accomondate one exception.
That could've been seen from a mile away.
General rule is broken not the new actually breaking set of rules?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/10/24 12:14:42
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
Ishagu wrote: It's not one exception. Eldar and Dark Eldar also abuse them. Changing the detachment is better than nerfing units or unique rules.
Mhm.
Do you allways delete system32. when you have the issue with a browser aswell?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/10/24 12:20:11
Subject: 3 Months ago everyone was complaining that Astartes are useless and that GW can't fix them.
And then we get told, be happy with what you got by marine players. Off coarse, its not that simple. But sometimes its the way it feels.
Eldar- 4436 pts
