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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




U.k

ORKS should have access to a field of some sort. They always have in the fluff and in earlier editions. It’s as simple as that really, maths aside.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 vict0988 wrote:
These are the last ten Orks listed posted on 40kstats so the stats aren't hidden behind a paywall like with BCP, please PM me if any of this is wrong.
Spoiler:

One Footboss w. PK:
3rd Place Tom Higginbottom - Glasshammer Open
1st Place Steven Pampreen - Warzone: Montreal
3rd Place Steven Pampreen - CCBB

One Footboss w. PK and one Footboss w. BC:
2nd Place Chris Hanes - Warzone: Montreal

One Bikeboss w. PK:
2nd Place Rasmus Olesen - Midtcon
1st Place Nick Sutherland - Iron Halo
3rd Place Marc Parker - Nova Open
4th Place Charles Velazquez - Wargamescon XI
2nd Place Jeff Poole - Hammer of Wrath

Two Footbosses w. PK:
4th Place Andreas Drachmann - Midtcon

Footboss w. PK and Bikeboss w. PK:
3rd Place Elliott Levy - Michigan GT

The one Footboss w. PK is more common in general than at the top tables. But lists with no Warbosses are very unpopular both at the top and bottom, more or less half the lists on BCP actually write KK on their Warboss but I assume everyone that has a PK Warboss takes KK, I think must be less than 25% that don't take KK between those that run no Warboss and just big choppas. I don't think I've seen any Ork list without a Warboss. I've only scrolled through all the top 4s on 40kstats and a couple dozen on BCP and maybe there was one or two, can't say for sure.


Good work on the stats, hopefully that helps illustrate the point we are trying to make? The 11th Ork list (Isaac Jones - Gork's Grand Open, 4th) happens to have no Warboss. Not that it particularly matters. The topic at hand is in relation to Warbosses on foot specifically, which lack the delivery mechanisms to make best use of the KK. It is worth noting that in all of the lists you've posted, many more SAG Big Meks and Weirdboys are taken than Warbosses. Despite their prevalence I don't think they need a nerf, their usage is due to a crux of their abilities (Da Jump) or the ability to fulfil a niche that isn't easily filled by many Ork models (SAG is a backfield objective camper).

Balance is a complicated mess of interlocking things and any attempt to balance the game is probably going to be messy and without proper playtesting it probably won't get a tonne better than what GW does. Destroying vehicles in melee was a very rewarding experience previously, I recommend you try and make the most of your pile-in and consolidation moves and capture enemy tanks as captives to survive the enemy Shooting phase, melee can still be a rewarding experience and lead to victories both at the casual and competitive level.


You're not wrong about balance. I think you're not seeing the woods through the trees with the focus on vehicles though, Orks are somewhat lacking in reliable anti-armour, this is a role that any PK wielding unit used to fulfil in previous editions.

The KK Warboss is certainly tilted heavily in the direction of glass cannon and requires real finesse to get value from, on the other hand if you give him a 4++ and 5+++ he can also get moderately tough.


Do you mean by taking the Bad Moonz WL trait and Super Cybork Body? That's a complete waste of a trait and relic, which is why it's never taken competitively. The unit should have a 4++ (perhaps only in cqc) or 5+++ as standard to be honest, it won't give them much of an edge if they take the KK but it will enable them to survive small arms fire to a degree.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 An Actual Englishman wrote:



You're not wrong about balance. I think you're not seeing the woods through the trees with the focus on vehicles though, Orks are somewhat lacking in reliable anti-armour, this is a role that any PK wielding unit used to fulfil in previous editions.

Do you mean by taking the Bad Moonz WL trait and Super Cybork Body? That's a complete waste of a trait and relic, which is why it's never taken competitively. The unit should have a 4++ (perhaps only in cqc) or 5+++ as standard to be honest, it won't give them much of an edge if they take the KK but it will enable them to survive small arms fire to a degree.


As a recent returner to 40k from 3rd/4th edition, I was floored with how useless the Power Klaw is now. It's just too unreliable. The Big Choppa with flat damage, no negative hit modifier, and cheaper, is simply a better option (Although is a bit sad against terminator armour). Anti-tank is always the one part of my list I struggle to include that doesn't involve spamming units I'd actually rather not include in large amounts... (multiple Big Meks, Mek Guns).

It's very odd that Orks should be expected to expend a relic, a WL trait just to get *basic* survivability that comes with other HQs which are supposed to fill a similar role. The Warboss being comparable to the Smash Captain in role seems legitimate, which should go along with any points increase. Let me spend 100-130 points on a badass Warboss.
I can make it cheap as chips at 72 points, but it's boring as feth.
   
Made in eu
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






The ork warboss used to have 5++ save from cybork until that insult of a codex in 7th came along and nerfed everything semi-decent into the ground, including cybork because it used to stack with painboyz.

Cybork should simply go back to providing 5++ and be available to nobz and warbosses like it used to.

@Warbosses are used in tournaments: Warbosses are often used in gretchin hordes because they provide the same aura as runtherds do, but they also fill an HQ slot, so they are cheaper than buying a runtherd+unneeded weirdboy. Big Choppa is minimal option, by the way.
Foot bosses also see some play since some tournaments are already banning indexes and the Killa Klaw alone is worth fielding one - to counter-charge melee knights or simply walk across the board hidden from view, moving through terrain (biker boss needs to go around).
One of the players bringing two warbosses also commented on his list that he simply didn't own any other HQ models.

Without doubt is a warboss without Killa Klaw only useful for keeping gretchin in line.

A daemon prince throws down 5+1 (sword) or 8 attacks (talons) hitting on twos and re-rolling ones and pretty much crushes any unit at will - without a relic. A captain is also five attacks, with a re-roll aura and gets a flat 3 damage weapon, also without needing a relic.
This is the league a warboss should be playing in.
He used to mirror the space marine captain, and got more wounds and toughness in exchange for less armor and invulnerable saves, but right now you're lucky if he manages to grind through a unit of guardsmen, and don't even try picking a fight with intercessors, they'll murder him.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




So perhaps he needs 5 attacks. I'm still for him getting a 6+++ and then Snakebites increases it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






A 6+++ would have to be free in order to do anything though. Cybork at 5 points it would actually make him less survivable per points spent.

Snakebites need a full overhaul to make sense anyways.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
A 6+++ would have to be free in order to do anything though. Cybork at 5 points it would actually make him less survivable per points spent.

Snakebites need a full overhaul to make sense anyways.

Oof, I did forget about the Cybork body.

I'm all for a free 5++ at minimum and an extra attack. Hell Warbosses could start with 6 attacks and I wouldn't bat an eye.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






Yeah, frankly, given how underwhelming PK (and power fists for that matter) are this edition, 6 attacks just about make him actually do something in CC. I would prefer PK were buffed, but giving him more attacks would be a start.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I am more surprised that GW didn't hand out the cybork invul for free as gw did with IG /R&H/ CSM/ SM HQ choices.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in eu
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Because 7th edition had to nerf everything that was ever good in the 4th edition codex to sell models.
The guys writing index just used that waste of paper as a basis.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Jidmah wrote:
Because 7th edition had to nerf everything that was ever good in the 4th edition codex to sell models.
The guys writing index just used that waste of paper as a basis.


This. I'd also like the More Dakka, Blastier and Shootier kustom jobs to make a return from the 3rd edition codex. Just for flavour, really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/05 12:27:45


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in eu
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Well, Flash gits right now basically have those three upgrade built-in, without the chance of killing themselves.
I don't think they have ever been in a better spot than they are now, in the 4th edition codex they were a horrible overcosted unit that was more of a joke than anything. Kind of like the stompa is now.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, Flash gits right now basically have those three upgrade built-in, without the chance of killing themselves.
I don't think they have ever been in a better spot than they are now, in the 4th edition codex they were a horrible overcosted unit that was more of a joke than anything. Kind of like the stompa is now.


Yeah, but I mean for being able to add them onto the guns of Warbosses, Nobz etc.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am more surprised that GW didn't hand out the cybork invul for free as gw did with IG /R&H/ CSM/ SM HQ choices.


And necrons. Overlords get phase shifters as basic gear, but not destroyer lords, oddly enough.
In fact, considering how the "standard" warboss is supposed to be grukk, who seems to have cyborg stuff on him, its really odd that warbosses don't come with cybork body as basic equipment.



Look at the powerklaw arm. See those pipes? That's some cybork stuff right there.


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
I am more surprised that GW didn't hand out the cybork invul for free as gw did with IG /R&H/ CSM/ SM HQ choices.


And necrons. Overlords get phase shifters as basic gear, but not destroyer lords, oddly enough.
In fact, considering how the "standard" warboss is supposed to be grukk, who seems to have cyborg stuff on him, its really odd that warbosses don't come with cybork body as basic equipment.



Look at the powerklaw arm. See those pipes? That's some cybork stuff right there.



Well.
Don't tell me, i was so infurated around 6th with my orks that the last bought models of orkz i own were the blitza bomba and the dakkajet.

There is a reason i didn't bother anymore with orkz.


oddly enough the above named HQ choices that all magically got a baseline invulnerable never had one modeled onto, and I own all of them, especially the small IG / R&H ones.
Otoh carapace armour also magically vanished from R&H even though this DUDE:

Has clearly Makeshift carapace armour.
(not mine, need to touch up on mine a bit since he is no more in my standards, if anyone has good tips to remove paint from resin miniatures please PM

But generally quite a lot of books don't make sense that way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/05 14:01:07


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in eu
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






That's just the regular powerklaw though.
Cybork is usually displayed by some metal plate on their head or a fully mechanical limp.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Jidmah wrote:
That's just the regular powerklaw though.
Cybork is usually displayed by some metal plate on their head or a fully mechanical limp.


So what, like i said in my exemple above, there never was te invul equipment modelled onto R&H charachters, now all have them. For some unknown reason.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

How is a piece of machinery that's been grafted onto an organism via a series of pipes not cybernetic? That's like the definition of cyborg.

The other powerklaws don't have that. I don't see pipes from the powerklaws going into flesh on my plastic and metal nobs. Its only Grukk who has those pipes inserted into his arm. He's totally a cybork.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/05 14:05:15


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in eu
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






The AOBR warboss has it though, as does the banner nob. It's also implied in at least one of the PKs from the nobz box. In general, a PK always replaces the arm of an ork, he cannot just pull it off like marines take off their power fists.

Cybork refers to a major bodypart (head, legs, arms, spine) being replaced with cybernetics, like you can see on Thrakka, Gortznik or Zagstrukk, the KBB crew or the cybork heads and limbs from the nobz box.

That said, Grukk could go either way. For me, he is too little cybork compared to those models who clearly are and orks don't do subtle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/05 14:18:53


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Jidmah wrote:
That's just the regular powerklaw though.
Cybork is usually displayed by some metal plate on their head or a fully mechanical limp.


Well, they started out as the Bionik Bonce (+1 to armour save) and Bionic Arm (1 automatic S4 hit at I6 against an enemy in base contact plus counts as extra ccw) upgrades and then the Cybork Body upgrade (5+ invulnerable save) representing major modifications to the whole Ork (extensive rebuild is the description in the 3rd ed codex). That could very much be internal and within the torso, where it is normally covered by the armour.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/05 14:44:29


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
 
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