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 Sentineil wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:


Look around- not in just this thread, many many others. The names and smarmy avatars change but the arguments don't. There are plenty of GW white knights on this site right now (and many over the years that have dropped off, but the "haters" remain. Why do you think that is?) that push their agenda of "Praise the mighty GW for everything they do or GTFO!". Some have even posted ITT, they are quite easy to spot and come out like Gollum to defend their precious whenever a thread like this appears as people they deem "haters" will inevitably show up too.

An example of this would be great.

I think, that pointing out flaws in people's arguments and laughing at the wildly inconsistent arguments is being chalked up as white knighting.

I’d name names but I feel that would violate rule 1. You know who they are. One of them started a thread on a similar topic to this just last week.

I'm sure I know who you have on your list, but I don't agree that they're white knighting, they're just people that happen to enjoy the hobby and be happy with its current state, even though it isn't perfect.

I have a similar list of people who I see as nothing but negative, with every post either bashing GW, Marines, or declaring anything and everything trash, garbage or OP.

I'm sure you'd disagree with my choices on that list too though.

What I'd like to see is a quote or example of a post that's white knighting though. It's often said here, but I'd say that 90% of "white knight" posts are just refuting an intellectually dishonest anti GW complaint, of which there are many.

It's tiring seeing post claiming "it only cost a couple of dollars to make a squad and GW sell for €75, rip off!" Or the usual, "GW makes new models OP for sales".

These arguments are blatantly wrong, yet crop up again and again. Every time they're refuted, and yet we still see them.

Complaining about something does not make you a negative person. Making complaints is a way to actually improve a company's product or service.

If your girlfriend complains about you farting on her in public, then you might want to listen- because if she didn't care and want to be with you, she wouldn't complain- she'd just leave. She's complaining because she wants to be with you, she just wants to make things a bit better and knows you can be better.

Anyway, that being said- there's valid complaints out there, and I have a few myself. But overall, it's more about how you complain, IMHO. That's not being negative, that's an essential part of a business' success- without customer feedback, companies crash and burn.

Of course, it's not like we have a shortage of people that "haven't played since 3rd" and just constantly hang around to talk about how everything sucks. And the people who, no matter what they get,will always complain because that gets them attention. And then we'll have me, complaining because Tau exist and I think Squatting them is the best direction possible for GW in the forseeable future.

Well GW prices are like any other luxury manufacturer a rip off. I saw some mantic starter boxes for what looked like 28mm imperial guard variants and they had newer and more detailed sculpts and it was 20 normal guys, 2 heavy weapon teams and a few characters for just above what 10 cadians cost. Even at the same price I bet GW would have higher profit margins yet they are 200% higher in price.

I only buy discount and preferably second hand from people who over bought so I pay on average 50-70% of the dollar/euro price for my gw plastic and it still feels a bit high at times.

Complaining is perfectly fine, there are issues with the game and no one is saying we should just ignore them or pretend they don't exist.

The issue, and "negative people" come in when every single thread without fail will rehash the same arguments.

If you think Xenos don't get enough love, that's fine, but my thread on peoples favourite sandwich doesn't need to hear about it. Likewise, every new release for a non-Xenos model goes down the same path. It creates an absurd situation where it seems like people are meant to feel guilty that they're getting new releases, or like they have to defend it.

 Sentineil wrote:

If you think Xenos don't get enough love, that's fine, but my thread on peoples favourite sandwich doesn't need to hear about it. Likewise, every new release for a non-Xenos model goes down the same path. It creates an absurd situation where it seems like people are meant to feel guilty that they're getting new releases, or like they have to defend it.

GAMES WORKSHOP: "We just wanted to say Happy Holidays, and this year we are donating $500,000 to the needy children. And Congratulations on Duncan's wedding. And our sincerest condolences to Peachy as he laments the passing of his pet armadillo, Clyde."

COMMENTS:

"GW you suck for not making better rules for Banshees and no other new Eldar units"

"bring back squats"

"grey knights codex needs to be redone"

"please delete Tau" (Note, this is probably me)

"Are you guys doing anything for Necromunda?"

"i want gorkamorka back lol"

*Heresy meme*

"omg please fire that new chick she is so annoying"

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:

If you think Xenos don't get enough love, that's fine, but my thread on peoples favourite sandwich doesn't need to hear about it. Likewise, every new release for a non-Xenos model goes down the same path. It creates an absurd situation where it seems like people are meant to feel guilty that they're getting new releases, or like they have to defend it.

GAMES WORKSHOP: "We just wanted to say Happy Holidays, and this year we are donating $500,000 to the needy children. And Congratulations on Duncan's wedding. And our sincerest condolences to Peachy as he laments the passing of his pet armadillo, Clyde."

COMMENTS:

"GW you suck for not making better rules for Banshees and no other new Eldar units"

"bring back squats"

"grey knights codex needs to be redone"

"please delete Tau" (Note, this is probably me)

"Are you guys doing anything for Necromunda?"

"i want gorkamorka back lol"

*Heresy meme*

"omg please fire that new chick she is so annoying"

Thanks, Adeptus. for this excellent example of arguing in bad faith.

What bad faith?

Blastaar wrote:
Thanks, Adeptus. for this excellent example of arguing in bad faith.

I'm happy to help, and I greatly appreciate you returning the favor with a fine example of "Why you should read the other posts instead of just responding to one out of context". I'll make sure I save this one and avoid some embarrassment later.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
Thanks, Adeptus. for this excellent example of arguing in bad faith.

I'm happy to help, and I greatly appreciate you returning the favor with a fine example of "Why you should read the other posts instead of just responding to one out of context". I'll make sure I save this one and avoid some embarrassment later.

I did read the other posts. To which you opted to respond with a long version of "GW can't do or say a single thing, even if entirely unrelated to their products, without people yelling at them for the sake of it because GW players are so incredibly toxic."

Even if your extreme hypothetical were true, that GW receives this kind of ire on all fronts heavily suggests that a portion of their playerbase is deeply unhappy with the present state of the game, or their other products, and are not feeling their concerns are acknowledged. Games Workshop obviously knows that listening to the concerns of its customers is good for business- otherwise they would not have marketed 8th by framing it as the 40K "you asked for!" The thing is, GW hears, but they do not listen. Telling customers "hey, we understand your concerns, here is our solution" is just a marketing slogan for them. Their actions do not support the notion that their rules team understands the problems with their game and are working to resolve them.

Telling GW "grey knights are bad, fix them!" Is perfectly adequate feedback. It is not the responsibility of the players to provide GW detailed information on the problems with a product they sell- that is Games Workshop's job. Were the rules team competent, they would investigate the complaints, and work to fix the army. But they haven't.


Yes, I was being sarcastic, because your tone-deaf, outright angry and dishonest post called for it. Reread your response to me. Reflect on it. Perhaps, choosing the combative tone you did, and, as you are so often wont to do, dismissing people's concerns as "complaining for the sake of complaining" only contributes to the issue?

Blastaar wrote:

I did read the other posts. To which you opted to respond with a long version of "GW can't do or say a single thing, even if entirely unrelated to their products, without people yelling at them for the sake of it because GW players are so incredibly toxic."

So, you didn't read it. Got it.

Blastaar wrote:
Yes, I was being sarcastic, because your tone-deaf, outright angry and dishonest post called for it. Reread your response to me. Reflect on it. Perhaps, choosing the combative tone you did, and, as you are so often wont to do, dismissing people's concerns as "complaining for the sake of complaining" only contributes to the issue?

And here you go proving the point. And that thing about people being toxic? Yeah, I didn't say that but you kinda made that point for me as well.

Shine on, you shiny diamond.

Oh, and as far as 'angry and combative', I think that's you, buddy. Calm down and grow up.

TBH it was funny and accurate even if a little exaggerated but thats comedy for you.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:

If you think Xenos don't get enough love, that's fine, but my thread on peoples favourite sandwich doesn't need to hear about it. Likewise, every new release for a non-Xenos model goes down the same path. It creates an absurd situation where it seems like people are meant to feel guilty that they're getting new releases, or like they have to defend it.

GAMES WORKSHOP: "We just wanted to say Happy Holidays, and this year we are donating $500,000 to the needy children. And Congratulations on Duncan's wedding. And our sincerest condolences to Peachy as he laments the passing of his pet armadillo, Clyde."

COMMENTS:

"GW you suck for not making better rules for Banshees and no other new Eldar units"

"bring back squats"

"grey knights codex needs to be redone"

"please delete Tau" (Note, this is probably me)

"Are you guys doing anything for Necromunda?"

"i want gorkamorka back lol"

*Heresy meme*

"omg please fire that new chick she is so annoying"

This is sorta correct to an extent. There are tons of people on their Facebook and Instagram that don't anything constructively.

HOWEVER they don't listen to even a lot of constructive points on appropriate settings.

If anyone was looking for examples of negativity actively trying to turn people away from the hobby:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/781999.page

Not even a full page before someone asking for advice was told to find a better hobby. GG Dakka.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

I did read the other posts. To which you opted to respond with a long version of "GW can't do or say a single thing, even if entirely unrelated to their products, without people yelling at them for the sake of it because GW players are so incredibly toxic."

So, you didn't read it. Got it.

Blastaar wrote:
Yes, I was being sarcastic, because your tone-deaf, outright angry and dishonest post called for it. Reread your response to me. Reflect on it. Perhaps, choosing the combative tone you did, and, as you are so often wont to do, dismissing people's concerns as "complaining for the sake of complaining" only contributes to the issue?

And here you go proving the point. And that thing about people being toxic? Yeah, I didn't say that but you kinda made that point for me as well.

Shine on, you shiny diamond.

Oh, and as far as 'angry and combative', I think that's you, buddy. Calm down and grow up.

I am calm. You are projecting.

 Sentineil wrote:
If anyone was looking for examples of negativity actively trying to turn people away from the hobby:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/781999.page

Not even a full page before someone asking for advice was told to find a better hobby. GG Dakka.

Bruh...

If you think that is an example of negativity then you are truly grasping at straws.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Look around- not in just this thread, many many others. The names and smarmy avatars change but the arguments don't. There are plenty of GW white knights on this site right now (and many over the years that have dropped off, but the "haters" remain. Why do you think that is?) that push their agenda of "Praise the mighty GW for everything they do or GTFO!". Some have even posted ITT, they are quite easy to spot and come out like Gollum to defend their precious whenever a thread like this appears as people they deem "haters" will inevitably show up too.

It's funny to read this given how I was once widely derided as GW White Knight back in the day when debating about GW's financial health. You still think I'm on their paycheque?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
If anyone was looking for examples of negativity actively trying to turn people away from the hobby:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/781999.page

Not even a full page before someone asking for advice was told to find a better hobby. GG Dakka.

Bruh...

If you think that is an example of negativity then you are truly grasping at straws.

Ah, so someone asking for advice and being told to find a different game is a beacon of positivity that's going to grow the hobby and community?

I think you might actually just be too deep in your hateful rabbit hole to even recognise negative behaviour. Just another tree in the forest bruh.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Firstly, grav-tanks have always been a thing in the Imperium. Grav tanks have belonged to the Custodes and SoS for time immemorial, the Admech have it, and Land Speeders are hardly "gothic" looking, yet are iconic Space Marine vehicles.

Sure they had. All of them were outliers, to show off remnants of the former glory and prowess of the Imperium. By contrast, Xenos races underlined their technological advancement with grav-tanks which were standard equipment of their armies. So yes, giving a grav tank as a line vehicle for Imperium is indeed stepping outside of the implicit former boundaries, and undermines the fundamental concept of the Imperium of Man, which is slow fight against the decline. It's one reason why I don't like Primaris marines - another is that many of the units look quite derp, but that is another story.

It's like giving Tau effective close combat troops with powerful weaponry, and arguing that what's the big deal, they always had close combat units like Aun'shi, Farsight, Kroot...it's a change of the paradigm. One could argue that it is not necessarily bad change, but one cannot argue that it isn't change.

Blastaar wrote:

Even if your extreme hypothetical were true, that GW receives this kind of ire on all fronts heavily suggests that a portion of their playerbase is deeply unhappy with the present state of the game, or their other products, and are not feeling their concerns are acknowledged.

Does it?

Another take is thst there is a subset of bitter, miserable customers who will never be satisfied with anything that is presented to them. And who cannot ever be pleased.

With respect, while this is hyperbole, I have met enough gamers who I could only describe as self centred, entitled and bitter to see at least some of that in all the negativity that gets posted.

Blastaar wrote:

Telling GW "grey knights are bad, fix them!" Is perfectly adequate feedback. It is not the responsibility of the players to provide GW detailed information on the problems with a product they sell- that is Games Workshop's job. Were the rules team competent, they would investigate the complaints, and work to fix the army. But they haven't.

'X is bad, fix it!' Without any additional direction is white noise. It is not 'perfectly adequate' feedback. And it has nothing to do with competency either. I mean, how do they 'fix' them, if they don't know what the customer wants. They can't make everyone happy either.

Some of my friends playtested for gw back in the day. Two even got their names into a couple of codices and rulebook in the 'special thanks' section. And it's not just gw. I also remember with privateer press' mk2 public playtest, and their requests for the mk3 cid/player feedback, where they said quite clearly this approach had no value. It gives them nothing to work with, no idea of what's wrong, or what direction to go in order to fix it.They wanted specifics in terms of what was wrong and feedback in terms of changes and directions to go.

Feel free to disagree, by all means, but to me, saying 'It's not our responsibility to do anything' is a copout and a handwaving away of our role and our ability to play a part in our enjoyment of our hobby.

 Sentineil wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
If anyone was looking for examples of negativity actively trying to turn people away from the hobby:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/781999.page

Not even a full page before someone asking for advice was told to find a better hobby. GG Dakka.

Bruh...

If you think that is an example of negativity then you are truly grasping at straws.

Ah, so someone asking for advice and being told to find a different game is a beacon of positivity that's going to grow the hobby and community?

I think you might actually just be too deep in your hateful rabbit hole to even recognise negative behaviour. Just another tree in the forest bruh.

And there you go tarring me with the same brush...

We’re done here.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Bruh...
If you think that is an example of negativity then you are truly grasping at straws.

Could not disagree more with your statement and assessment. If that post in the other thread was meant as a lighthearted jab at the game's lack of proper balancing, then it missed the goal by a long shot. The OP is doing something really good. Instead of just taking the hardest net list he can find, he is asking for advice how to make it a good experience for everybody involved. You can complain that 40k is bad at internal as well as external army balancing and that there are much better system out there if balance is important for you, but this is not the advice OP asked for and thus not the right place to state your complain and add nothing of value to the thread.

Deadnight wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

Even if your extreme hypothetical were true, that GW receives this kind of ire on all fronts heavily suggests that a portion of their playerbase is deeply unhappy with the present state of the game, or their other products, and are not feeling their concerns are acknowledged.

Does it?

Another take is thst there is a subset of bitter, miserable customers who will never be satisfied with anything that is presented to them. And who cannot ever be pleased.

With respect, while this is hyperbole, I have met enough gamers who I could only describe as self centred, entitled and bitter to see at least some of that in all the negativity that gets posted.

Blastaar wrote:

Telling GW "grey knights are bad, fix them!" Is perfectly adequate feedback. It is not the responsibility of the players to provide GW detailed information on the problems with a product they sell- that is Games Workshop's job. Were the rules team competent, they would investigate the complaints, and work to fix the army. But they haven't.

'X is bad, fix it!' Without any additional direction is white noise. It is not 'perfectly adequate' feedback. And it has nothing to do with competency either. I mean, how do they 'fix' them, if they don't know what the customer wants. They can't make everyone happy either.

Some of my friends playtested for gw back in the day. Two even got their names into a couple of codices and rulebook in the 'special thanks' section. And it's not just gw. I also remember with privateer press' mk2 public playtest, and their requests for the mk3 cid/player feedback, where they said quite clearly this approach had no value. It gives them nothing to work with, no idea of what's wrong, or what direction to go in order to fix it.They wanted specifics in terms of what was wrong and feedback in terms of changes and directions to go.

Feel free to disagree, by all means, but to me, saying 'It's not our responsibility to do anything' is a copout and a handwaving away of our role and our ability to play a part in our enjoyment of our hobby.

Since GW doesnt have a clear line of communication and dont have a place we can give good feedback and know they will take part of it having lots of people shouting all over the place is what you get. Hopefully GW will see that "GK suck pls fix it" and then do their own research for what needs to be done. They have the resources and ability if they want to. PP on the other hand were quite public with their whole beta rules and had forum interactions with the player base on their own forum so of course people could give better feedback there. It was back and forth communication there while from GW its mostly one way.

If GW made an open space and showed that they would listen to the feedback there then I think you would get better criticism. Its not the players fault but GWs in this case. They want it this way. As it is now they dont even have to defend themselves they get others to do it for them. They can just ignore everything and spout their own PR over at WarhammerCommunity and actually interacting with the playerbase would make that so much harder and they would have to put in serious effort to listen if they were to do that.

Backfire wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Firstly, grav-tanks have always been a thing in the Imperium. Grav tanks have belonged to the Custodes and SoS for time immemorial, the Admech have it, and Land Speeders are hardly "gothic" looking, yet are iconic Space Marine vehicles.

Sure they had. All of them were outliers, to show off remnants of the former glory and prowess of the Imperium. By contrast, Xenos races underlined their technological advancement with grav-tanks which were standard equipment of their armies. So yes, giving a grav tank as a line vehicle for Imperium is indeed stepping outside of the implicit former boundaries, and undermines the fundamental concept of the Imperium of Man, which is slow fight against the decline.

But then another facet of the Imperium was the discovery and utility of barely understood technologies, and how their tech was always far more brutal and direct than some of their xenos counterparts.

Let's compare the grav vehicles of three types of faction: Space Marines, Eldar/Necrons and T'au. For the Eldar and Necrons and similar old races, this is because they haven't suffered massive technological strife. Their equipment is top notch, understood, and refined. We see this in their design, and their fluff - they are elegant, fast, almost skimming more like light aircraft than an hover vehicle.
Then the T'au, who have such tech because of their technological mastery and rapid development. Larger engines, but still very sleek, very *designed* - visually inferior and certainly more militarily focused than the old races, but shows technological advancement.
And the Space Marines, who have a massive angular box, festooned with guns, cargo, the same blocky silhouette and layered plates iconic to the Imperium. This is not an elegant weapon, this is a hunk of metal and armour designed only for war. And the description of how it floats - it doesn't project some elegant fancy antigrav field like Eldar or Tau or even Land Speeders, it punches the ground until it can hover and turns the battlefield to glass behind it. That's the most Space Marine thing I've heard, on something that apparently doesn't suit their identity.

It doesn't abandon the "fighting against the loss of technology" side, it reinforces it. We're looking at something so clearly retrofitted, clearly cobbled together it might as well be Orky, taking the few relic elements the Imperium has and brutally appropriating them to last just a little bit longer. This isn't the same grav-tech as Legion Jetbikes and Land Speeders - this is a whole other affair.

TL;DR, I don't think anti-grav alone is what defines the xenos tech from the Space Marines, but how it is executed and implemented, and I still feel that Space Marines keep their core identity even if their tanks float now.

It's like giving Tau effective close combat troops with powerful weaponry, and arguing that what's the big deal, they always had close combat units like Aun'shi, Farsight, Kroot...it's a change of the paradigm. One could argue that it is not necessarily bad change, but one cannot argue that it isn't change.

With no change to their story or the T'au race as a whole? Sure, even though the Farsight Enclaves and certain Ethereals/Commanders/Kroot do have close combat training and weaponry. But how about with the increased exposure to Daemons and Neverborn, the T'au get get into more conflicts with them, and come to the same discovery the Ultramarines did during the Battle of Calth: that daemons are significantly weaker to melee weaponry and more "primitive" forms of combat? That may actually prompt the Empire to consider the use of selected melee troops and equipment to combat Daemonic threats, and bada bing, bada boom, you've got Crisis Suits with flamers and swords, maybe with some kind of hexgrammatic ward or null-field generator-equivalent. For me, that sounds absolutely like something the T'au would invest in - they're all about adaptive warfare, and the only reason they didn't spec into melee initially was because their shooting was capable against conventional targets. With ethereal threats that are resistant to advanced ranged weapons (like Daemons are in lore), the most efficient solution for the T'au would be the adoption of small, specially trained melee teams.

I honestly don't see that as a change to the T'au dynamic. Is it a *change*, yes, is it a change to their core identity? No, if anything, this reinforces it.

Klickor wrote:

Since GW doesnt have a clear line of communication and dont have a place we can give good feedback and know they will take part of it having lots of people shouting all over the place is what you get. Hopefully GW will see that "GK suck pls fix it" and then do their own research for what needs to be done. They have the resources and ability if they want to. PP on the other hand were quite public with their whole beta rules and had forum interactions with the player base on their own forum so of course people could give better feedback there. It was back and forth communication there while from GW its mostly one way.

And what if 'their own research' identifies 'x' as a problem to be fixed but a bunch of people elsewhere say 'y' is the problem?

Pp went public, true and it was pretty good but a lot of the feedback was not 'better' - it was white noise, wth little or no value, precisely because people just said 'this is bad, FIX IT'. There is a reason they didn't repeat it with mk3, and did a different take on the public playtest that time. The noise to signal ratio was huge in the mk2 playtest, I actually remember even hearing (at least it was told to me anecdotally) that one of the developers even got death threats (I have absolutely no way to confirm this and I am... more than somewhat sceptical, to be fair!) out of it. The pp forums were pretty useless too - they were just an echo chamber and group think and as time went on, they turned into a salt mine. I remember a lot of people complaining how 'pp never listened' etc.

Klickor wrote:

If GW made an open space and showed that they would listen to the feedback there then I think you would get better criticism. Its not the players fault but GWs in this case. They want it this way. As it is now they dont even have to defend themselves they get others to do it for them. They can just ignore everything and spout their own PR over at WarhammerCommunity and actually interacting with the playerbase would make that so much harder and they would have to put in serious effort to listen if they were to do that.

I don'tthink they would get 'better' feedback at all. You put too much faith in gamers. While plenty blame rightfully lies with gw, There's plenty fault on the side of the players too - there's too many selfish, bitter gamers out there who have no intention of listening and who only spout poison and who would do nothing good at all with any open space presented to them. And with respect, you only need a handful of these to tarnish a brand. And There's a lot more to it than 'nah, we really just don't want to listen to you' or 'don't want to defend ourselves'. I remember the gw forums back in the day and they were a toxic mess with very little to redeem them. It was terrible from a pr and an image perspective. There is a reason both gw and pp nuked their forums.

Deadnight wrote:

Klickor wrote:

Since GW doesnt have a clear line of communication and dont have a place we can give good feedback and know they will take part of it having lots of people shouting all over the place is what you get. Hopefully GW will see that "GK suck pls fix it" and then do their own research for what needs to be done. They have the resources and ability if they want to. PP on the other hand were quite public with their whole beta rules and had forum interactions with the player base on their own forum so of course people could give better feedback there. It was back and forth communication there while from GW its mostly one way.

And what if 'their own research' identifies 'x' as a problem to be fixed but a bunch of people elsewhere say 'y' is the problem?

Pp went public, true and it was pretty good but a lot of the feedback was not 'better' - it was white noise, wth little or no value, precisely because people just said 'this is bad, FIX IT'. There is a reason they didn't repeat it with mk3, and did a different take on the public playtest that time. The noise to signal ratio was huge in the mk2 playtest, I actually remember even hearing (at least it was told to me anecdotally) that one of the developers even got death threats (I have absolutely no way to confirm this and I am... more than somewhat sceptical, to be fair!) out of it. The pp forums were pretty useless too - they were just an echo chamber and group think and as time went on, they turned into a salt mine. I remember a lot of people complaining how 'pp never listened' etc.

Klickor wrote:

If GW made an open space and showed that they would listen to the feedback there then I think you would get better criticism. Its not the players fault but GWs in this case. They want it this way. As it is now they dont even have to defend themselves they get others to do it for them. They can just ignore everything and spout their own PR over at WarhammerCommunity and actually interacting with the playerbase would make that so much harder and they would have to put in serious effort to listen if they were to do that.

I don'tthink they would get 'better' feedback at all. You put too much faith in gamers. While plenty blame rightfully lies with gw, There's plenty fault on the side of the players too - there's too many selfish, bitter gamers out there who have no intention of listening and who only spout poison and who would do nothing good at all with any open space presented to them. And with respect, you only need a handful of these to tarnish a brand. And There's a lot more to it than 'nah, we really just don't want to listen to you' or 'don't want to defend ourselves'. I remember the gw forums back in the day and they were a toxic mess with very little to redeem them. It was terrible from a pr and an image perspective. There is a reason both gw and pp nuked their forums.

Seriously nobody could tarnish GW’s brand more than GW have over the years and if that didn’t scare people off the feth all is going to, besides GW have learned all you need is a FB page a small pr team and some willing shills erm sorry playtesters/you tubers and any tarnish polishes right off.

Never forget it was not that long ago that GW’s actual company policy was based on the hardcore fans being dribbling idiots who would stay no matter what state the games were in or how much it cost.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Complaining about something does not make you a negative person. Making complaints is a way to actually improve a company's product or service.

Sure. You can click my profile and see recent posts from me that criticize GW.

Yet, I'm a white knight compared to the people who come in here in bad faith, like some here, and say some of the most ridiculous gak.

Some want to claim 40k is like MtG? I'll disagree and provide my thoughts on why.

Some want to claim

There is absolutely nothing about Games Workshop to be positive about.

supported by conspiracies? That's not useful criticism. It's not going to change anything GW is doing. It isn't going to win support.

There were a rash of totally obscene posts when the Executioner went up in points, too. Feel free to go review them, because they're illuminating in the context of the strong rules marines got.

And I'm going to go as far to say the "non white knights" need to call this gak out more. Otherwise your silence is implicit support.

 Grimtuff wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
But it seems to me, these positivity threads. The people who promote positivity and push against the negative people are really Negative and promote both pushing people out of the hobby and make wild accusations, assumptions and often seem to forget that for a lot of people GW is not the sole part of the hobby.

Reading a lot of reply here, I think some of the people pushing this Positive thinking are the most negative to the Hobby, Both GW and the miniature hobby as a whole.

Would you please elaborate on these parts with examples from this thread?

Look around- not in just this thread, many many others. The names and smarmy avatars change but the arguments don't. There are plenty of GW white knights on this site right now (and many over the years that have dropped off, but the "haters" remain. Why do you think that is?) that push their agenda of "Praise the mighty GW for everything they do or GTFO!". Some have even posted ITT, they are quite easy to spot and come out like Gollum to defend their precious whenever a thread like this appears as people they deem "haters" will inevitably show up too.

gee I dunno, could it be because the putridly toxic community is one they don't enjoy interacting with? because no one likes to try to enjoy their lollypop when they're surrounded by people screeching about how aweful lollypops are and it should have been a cookie, and it's the wrong flavor of lollypop anyway? And if you actually like the Lollypop you're clearly just a shill for the greedy confections company. and how they're absolutely insenced that they're being forced to buy lollypops?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
But it seems to me, these positivity threads. The people who promote positivity and push against the negative people are really Negative and promote both pushing people out of the hobby and make wild accusations, assumptions and often seem to forget that for a lot of people GW is not the sole part of the hobby.

Reading a lot of reply here, I think some of the people pushing this Positive thinking are the most negative to the Hobby, Both GW and the miniature hobby as a whole.

Would you please elaborate on these parts with examples from this thread?

Look around- not in just this thread, many many others. The names and smarmy avatars change but the arguments don't. There are plenty of GW white knights on this site right now (and many over the years that have dropped off, but the "haters" remain. Why do you think that is?) that push their agenda of "Praise the mighty GW for everything they do or GTFO!". Some have even posted ITT, they are quite easy to spot and come out like Gollum to defend their precious whenever a thread like this appears as people they deem "haters" will inevitably show up too.

gee I dunno, could it be because the putridly toxic community is one they don't enjoy interacting with? because no one likes to try to enjoy their lollypop when they're surrounded by people screeching about how aweful lollypops are and it should have been a cookie, and it's the wrong flavor of lollypop anyway? And if you actually like the Lollypop you're clearly just a shill for the greedy confections company. and how they're absolutely insenced that they're being forced to buy lollypops?

Build it and they will come.

Yeah but there are people who will still defend the company when it’s pointed out the raspberry labelled lollypop is in fact gak flavour and will ignore the warnings and eat anyway and then try and explain that it’s ok because the company have made the best tasting gak flavoured lolly anyway.

Seriously part of the toxicity of the community if that is even the case, is as much the white knights who will argue even against mathematics and common sense that a rule is not garbage as long as it’s official and there’s even the slimmest edge case for its use. I don’t know like a chapter tactic that only kicks in if titans and super heavies shoot infintry.

1 post of positivity.

Roughly 9 pages worth of hot garbage.

Welcome to Dakka.