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drbored wrote:
1 post of positivity.

Roughly 9 pages worth of hot garbage.

Welcome to Dakka.

Thank you for this stunning insight that proves my point and let’s not forget there is no Dakka gestalt mind and if the was by posting you are a part of it and increased the negativity of the thread.

drbored wrote:
1 post of positivity.

Roughly 9 pages worth of hot garbage.

Welcome to Dakka.

1 post of positively, 9 pages of hot garbage, half a dozen posts trying to explain that the real problem is actually people being positivity police.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:

drbored wrote:
1 post of positivity.

Roughly 9 pages worth of hot garbage.

Welcome to Dakka.

Thank you for this stunning insight that proves my point and let’s not forget there is no Dakka gestalt mind and if the was by posting you are a part of it and increased the negativity of the thread.

you're abolutely right, and IMHO the problem is that the mods don't put a stop to some of the excessively negitive crap here. there are certain posters who absolutely should be taken aside and told "cut it out" with action taken if they do not. people who start a half dozen threads all basicly saying "YOU SUCK YOUR ARMY SUCKS! AND GW SHOULD REMOVE IT" etc. people who don't even play an army posting around trying to stirr up crap saying people should be "insulted" by it (like Slayer-fan attempting to stirr gak up when GW published the blood raven chapter tactics in the july WD, acting like we should all be offended because the rules aren't hopelessly broken)

SeanDrake wrote:

Seriously nobody could tarnish GW’s brand more than GW have over the years and if that didn’t scare people off the feth all is going to, besides GW have learned all you need is a FB page a small pr team and some willing shills erm sorry playtesters/you tubers and any tarnish polishes right off.

I don't think that's particularly fair.

Now let's be honest - gw have made some stupendously boneheaded decisions over the years, burned a lot of trust, burned even more egos, and made a hell of a lot more mistakes and missteps along the way. I'll be the first to say this. Absolutely. I left gw games entirely from about the end of fourth edition all the way through to about two years ago because of all their crap. And I had a fantastic time playing other games like Warmachine and Infinity.

That said, since Kirby has wandered off and Roundtree got the helm, from my POV they've been doing a lot more things right than wrong, especially in the last 2 years, and being honest, I've genuinely not had so much fun with painting and modelling projects in years. Ive probably dropped a grand or two on their stuff since roundtree has been on the scene. I've had a fantastic time gaming too. Shadespire was our game of choice for the last year or so, and I'm currently getting my warcry starter painted up - I'll be honest, I think this is a wee gem and probably the skirmish game two of my guys have been waiting for for years. And I've loved gw's social media presence - for me at least, they've made it 'fun' again with the regimental standard and all the other media they've released.

If all that stuff still makes you miserable and angry, I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. Maybe it's an age thing, or more probably the guys I play with, but my perspective over the years has definitely shifted, andi value different things now. The fact that the game is still broken as anything means less to me than it did, because we put a lot more emphasis on the 'gamebuilding' aspect of wargaming, than 'blind match ups'. I've also lost faith in the 'god' that is 'a balanced game' - ttgs are limited systems, with rough edges, and I think there's only so far they can be pushed (but thats a debate for another thread). I've also learned enough not to take their mistakes personally. Gw are not an abusive partner. They're just a company making products, some of which I buy and enjoy.

I guess the gaming side for you is not the same as my situation and that's a genuine shame. Still doesn't make us or them 'shills'.

SeanDrake wrote:

Never forget it was not that long ago that GW’s actual company policy was based on the hardcore fans being dribbling idiots who would stay no matter what state the games were in or how much it cost.

Very true!

Yeah, they relied on the whales a bit too much. To be fair, focusing in on a particular market is not in itself a bad thing, neither is reducing volume of sales but also reducing expenses (sell less stuff for more). But they did it with such contempt, and along with all the other crap they pulled - it's no wonder they bled customers for years. I've seen enough anecdotes to know that there were plenty folks in the company that looked at, and treated their customers with contempt too. Their upper management ran out of ideas, and could only conceive of one way of doing things.

And it was pushing them ever onwards to a wall.

I'm glad they've changed their approach. Im glad they were able to embrace fresh thinking, I'm glad I was also able to change my perspective on things too. Because at the end of the day, and speaking entirely for myself, im glad that I can actually embrace and enjoy the stuff again that gw puts out, and enjoy a side of the gaming universe that for years I stayed away from.

SeanDrake wrote:

drbored wrote:
1 post of positivity.

Roughly 9 pages worth of hot garbage.

Welcome to Dakka.

Thank you for this stunning insight that proves my point and let’s not forget there is no Dakka gestalt mind and if the was by posting you are a part of it and increased the negativity of the thread.

I'm more sad that we can't just... accept the positivity. There shouldn't be this many posts on this thread. It should be a couple of people saying, "Yeah, good point, you're right, maybe I'll reflect on that." and that's it.

But then posts like this inevitably turn into wit-offs, where we try to out-wit each other to prove who is the edgiest, wittiest, most negative person in the thread.

It honestly has a lot less to do with 40k and a lot more to do with Internet culture as a whole. In a real world situation, someone sitting down with their friends or their gaming group and explaining these things would probably be met with a lot of nodding of the head and a few 'you right' responses, and then everyone would actually have something to reflect on.

Here, however, it's an all-you-can-eat buffet of 'gotcha' responses, strawman arguments, and people just trying to one-up each other.

In other words, hot garbage.

I find it my interest in the hobby at the lowest it's been since I started. I haven't played a game in 9 months, and don't have the drive to build or paint new stuff. I think it's hard to remain motivated when your faction gets neglected for years. There are other games that provide a better experience than 40k at this point, and I'm not sure if I can see myself putting myself in that same position again.

Darsath wrote:
I find it my interest in the hobby at the lowest it's been since I started. I haven't played a game in 9 months, and don't have the drive to build or paint new stuff. I think it's hard to remain motivated when your faction gets neglected for years. There are other games that provide a better experience than 40k at this point, and I'm not sure if I can see myself putting myself in that same position again.

A lot has changed in 9 months. What were you playing?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:

Build it and they will come.

Yeah but there are people who will still defend the company when it’s pointed out the raspberry labelled lollypop is in fact gak flavour and will ignore the warnings and eat anyway and then try and explain that it’s ok because the company have made the best tasting gak flavoured lolly anyway.

Seriously part of the toxicity of the community if that is even the case, is as much the white knights who will argue even against mathematics and common sense that a rule is not garbage as long as it’s official and there’s even the slimmest edge case for its use. I don’t know like a chapter tactic that only kicks in if titans and super heavies shoot infintry.

There's the other thing that bugs the ever living gak out of me:

"If it's not perfect its total gak". THAT is what toxic is. You people operate black and white and nothing else.

But, sure, only non white knights understand math and common sense. Thanks for saving us.

Blastaar wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
Thanks, Adeptus. for this excellent example of arguing in bad faith.

I'm happy to help, and I greatly appreciate you returning the favor with a fine example of "Why you should read the other posts instead of just responding to one out of context". I'll make sure I save this one and avoid some embarrassment later.

I did read the other posts. To which you opted to respond with a long version of "GW can't do or say a single thing, even if entirely unrelated to their products, without people yelling at them for the sake of it because GW players are so incredibly toxic."

Even if your extreme hypothetical were true, that GW receives this kind of ire on all fronts heavily suggests that a portion of their playerbase is deeply unhappy with the present state of the game, or their other products, and are not feeling their concerns are acknowledged. Games Workshop obviously knows that listening to the concerns of its customers is good for business- otherwise they would not have marketed 8th by framing it as the 40K "you asked for!" The thing is, GW hears, but they do not listen. Telling customers "hey, we understand your concerns, here is our solution" is just a marketing slogan for them. Their actions do not support the notion that their rules team understands the problems with their game and are working to resolve them.

Telling GW "grey knights are bad, fix them!" Is perfectly adequate feedback. It is not the responsibility of the players to provide GW detailed information on the problems with a product they sell- that is Games Workshop's job. Were the rules team competent, they would investigate the complaints, and work to fix the army. But they haven't.


Yes, I was being sarcastic, because your tone-deaf, outright angry and dishonest post called for it. Reread your response to me. Reflect on it. Perhaps, choosing the combative tone you did, and, as you are so often wont to do, dismissing people's concerns as "complaining for the sake of complaining" only contributes to the issue?

I quoted the whole post, but one thing I wanted to touch on was saying " GW, this is broke, fix it " I couldn't agree more that should be totally fine feedback. In fact I'd often consider it counter productive as the company that makes the productive should damn well know what they put out sucks. Me, or any of us, saying this sucks, and heres why, I doubt would get any better response as the game designers aren't going to say " Hey, ya know what ? Random internet person 9 says we should do this for them, well better listen to them then ! "

Often complaints to GW tend to be just as hard for anyone to phrase as listen to. Say whats wrong and how to fix it, and you're being arrogant that you can do their jobs, state the problem and just say it needs to be fixed and you're being vague and unhelpful. Get annoyed that lasting issues never get touched on and you're being combative. Obviously there will be some people who just complain and attack GW over everything because they are trolls and like to do that to near anyone or anything but that doesn't devalue the otherwise valid criticisms.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
I find it my interest in the hobby at the lowest it's been since I started. I haven't played a game in 9 months, and don't have the drive to build or paint new stuff. I think it's hard to remain motivated when your faction gets neglected for years. There are other games that provide a better experience than 40k at this point, and I'm not sure if I can see myself putting myself in that same position again.

A lot has changed in 9 months. What were you playing?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:

Build it and they will come.

Yeah but there are people who will still defend the company when it’s pointed out the raspberry labelled lollypop is in fact gak flavour and will ignore the warnings and eat anyway and then try and explain that it’s ok because the company have made the best tasting gak flavoured lolly anyway.

Seriously part of the toxicity of the community if that is even the case, is as much the white knights who will argue even against mathematics and common sense that a rule is not garbage as long as it’s official and there’s even the slimmest edge case for its use. I don’t know like a chapter tactic that only kicks in if titans and super heavies shoot infintry.

There's the other thing that bugs the ever living gak out of me:

"If it's not perfect its total gak". THAT is what toxic is. You people operate black and white and nothing else.

But, sure, only non white knights understand math and common sense. Thanks for saving us.

None of us need "perfect". What we NEED is for them to actually try harder and maybe, I dunno, think sometimes.

Only time I see the word "perfect" is in strawmans or right after "dont expect" or "we dont need". There is a whole lot you could do with ease to make 40k and GWs practices better without even needing to think what would be perfect. If anyone ever wanted perfection then they wouldnt ever be able to touch a GW product and survive the burns to post online.

How about we reach a happy medium of, letting people be positive, and letting people point out what is bad and not telling either side how to live. That is really the only thing I chimed in on.

I won't say why you shouldn't enjoy yourself, but please refrain from telling me why GW is amazing.

I would further add, if a handful of deemed negative posts on warhammer from some people online force people out of love of the hobby or the hobby in general, I'd say that person has bigger issues than not playing warhammer like inability of making choices for themselves.

I honestly don't see people not loving GW, or loving it all the time as an issue. I see the issue being when you can't accept that both those types actually tend to care about the hobby. Which is why you get the " negative " talk in a " positive " thread, turns out people don't like being told what to do in terms of how they view GW and what they do or don't like and why should always be " positive " otherwise they are " negative ".

how about the excessivly negitive people then not invade every thread, even the god damned LORE discussions, to scream about how X sucks etc?

i guess what weirds me out about this place is how much people here seem to hate and resent their hobby. i enjoy this hobby, i love building and painting models, i am sad that i can't buy all the models i want because i am too poor and they are too expensive and too many, and i am sad that i can't paint quicker, and i wish i had more time to play games with them, but i can't imagine getting this upset over rules. maybe its because i wasn't raised in a competitive environment, so i enjoy losing as much as i enjoy not losing, but i can see that if you feel you need to win lots of games the cost of staying competitive would be very high. but then, we live in a capitalist system, and gw's shareholders need their profit, so what are you going to do?

*starts campaign to nationalise gw*

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I won't say why you shouldn't enjoy yourself, but please refrain from telling me why GW is amazing.

So I should refrain to make a thread about the freshly revealed SoB tanks and say that GW did an amazing job there?

AngryAngel80 wrote:

I would further add, if a handful of deemed negative posts on warhammer from some people online force people out of love of the hobby or the hobby in general, I'd say that person has bigger issues than not playing warhammer like inability of making choices for themselves.

Not engaging with a community platform (the other part of my argument which you left out) or not bothering with a hobby anymore because you value a good community and the community is gak IS making a choice for themselves. Telling that guy "stop collecting, Dakka is trash" and then he would stop the hobby would be what you describe.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
How about we reach a happy medium of, letting people be positive, and letting people point out what is bad and [1]not telling either side how to live. That is really the only thing I chimed in on.
I honestly don't see people not loving GW, or loving it all the time as an issue. I see the issue being when you can't accept that both those types actually tend to care about the hobby. Which is why you get the " negative " talk in a " positive " thread, turns out [2]people don't like being told what to do in terms of how they view GW and [3]what they do or don't like and why should always be " positive " otherwise they are " negative ".

[1] So what you are doing right now? Or is it just advice that you, I and other gave in this thread and that some just sweep aside as "don't tell me what to do" when being presented with conflicting views?
[2] & [3] Please elaborate with examples from this thread.

BrianDavion wrote:
how about the excessivly negitive people then not invade every thread, even the god damned LORE discussions, to scream about how X sucks etc?

Are you serious ? Yeah I'll tell the negative ones to not invade positive threads when all the knights decide to not trot on into a thread with someone hating on GW to explain to them how they should be thankful for all GW deems fit to offer them. Seriously man, back the train up both sides do that so don't act like it's just the evil negative guys attacking everyone.

It happens to every thread, and both parties do it. If living and let living is just too much to ask for, then better get down with the negative vibes as I doubt they will go anywhere much like all the defenders of realm will be sure to defend the honor of GW at every turn as well.

Neither side is right, neither side is wrong, just deal with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

a_typical_hero wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I won't say why you shouldn't enjoy yourself, but please refrain from telling me why GW is amazing.

So I should refrain to make a thread about the freshly revealed SoB tanks and say that GW did an amazing job there?

AngryAngel80 wrote:

I would further add, if a handful of deemed negative posts on warhammer from some people online force people out of love of the hobby or the hobby in general, I'd say that person has bigger issues than not playing warhammer like inability of making choices for themselves.

Not engaging with a community platform (the other part of my argument which you left out) or not bothering with a hobby anymore because you value a good community and the community is gak IS making a choice for themselves. Telling that guy "stop collecting, Dakka is trash" and then he would stop the hobby would be what you describe.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
How about we reach a happy medium of, letting people be positive, and letting people point out what is bad and [1]not telling either side how to live. That is really the only thing I chimed in on.
I honestly don't see people not loving GW, or loving it all the time as an issue. I see the issue being when you can't accept that both those types actually tend to care about the hobby. Which is why you get the " negative " talk in a " positive " thread, turns out [2]people don't like being told what to do in terms of how they view GW and [3]what they do or don't like and why should always be " positive " otherwise they are " negative ".

[1] So what you are doing right now? Or is it just advice that you, I and other gave in this thread and that some just sweep aside as "don't tell me what to do" when being presented with conflicting views?
[2] & [3] Please elaborate with examples from this thread.

You can make whatever thread you like, but if someone thinks the tank looks bad, they'll voice it there too. That shouldn't take away your love of it.

You can engage in a community platform but choose to engage in the points you want and leave the rest. If you value someone elses opinion over your own drive to experience it for yourself and make up your own mind, you not in it is no big loss and I'd say you should learn to make your own choices and bring in input simply as a way to gauge your feelings on the matter not as a defacto statement of truth.

So me telling you to stop telling people to dislike GW is fine but me saying let the people say what they will is bad ? Nice turn around on that one. As I said, if living and let living is just too hard and unacceptable better just get ready for the hate train as you'll change nothing and work over no one if all you want is an echo chamber which feels an awful lot like what some people seek in opinions. Not all, just some.

I'm not going to go around and seek out all the examples, they are there, I'm sure you can read them same as I did. Making me do pointless busy work to earn brownie points for an argument you will never agree to anyways is just a waste of both our time.

sure it's fine to think the tanks look bad but when you run around making posts that say "REPULSORS OBJECTIVELY LOOK BAD!" it's silly. (the repulsor's gun layout I think is reasonably sensable when you look at it, the executioner's is less so though)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
None of us need "perfect". What we NEED is for them to actually try harder and maybe, I dunno, think sometimes.

I hate agreeing with you.

AngryAngel80 wrote:How about we reach a happy medium of, letting people be positive, and letting people point out what is bad and not telling either side how to live. That is really the only thing I chimed in on.

Yeah, I can work with that. However, I'm sure you'll agree that there is a difference between "pointing out what is 'bad'" and "going into every thread with the same criticisms, even on otherwise unrelated or specifically optimistic threads".

I wouldn't have a problem with a "this is a rant thread, only rants and complaints here", but when it's nearly *every thread*? That's excessive.

I won't say why you shouldn't enjoy yourself, but please refrain from telling me why GW is amazing.

So, just to be clear, does this work the other way around? "I won't say why you should enjoy yourself, but please refrain from telling me why GW sucks"?

I would further add, if a handful of deemed negative posts on warhammer from some people online force people out of love of the hobby or the hobby in general, I'd say that person has bigger issues than not playing warhammer like inability of making choices for themselves.

Agreed, but so likewise, if people can't stand folks liking what GW do without calling them a shill or white knight, does that not also speak to their insecurity?

Again, just to clarify, it's not just "a handful of deemed negative posts" - it's a torrent of them on nearly every thread. And while criticism and discontent are all fine and dandy, when it's all you can see, surely you can see why that's a tad over-the-top?

I honestly don't see people not loving GW, or loving it all the time as an issue. I see the issue being when you can't accept that both those types actually tend to care about the hobby. Which is why you get the " negative " talk in a " positive " thread, turns out people don't like being told what to do in terms of how they view GW and what they do or don't like and why should always be " positive " otherwise they are " negative ".

But when the majority of posts and threads are telling people to view GW as this evil terrible can-do-no-good entity, that's okay?

You're absolutely right, people don't like to be told how to think and feel. So why is telling people to 'perhaps look on the bright side and find positives in their hobby' bad, but telling people that 'GW suck and you should hate them because they're a terrible company' okay?

There should be a balance, but right now, that's not what's going on.

It's telling that we've asked for examples of "mindless white knighting" multiple times in this thread and yet none have been provided.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
You can make whatever thread you like, but if someone thinks the tank looks bad, they'll voice it there too. That shouldn't take away your love of it.

It doesn't. I bring it up because you just stated I should not tell you why GW is amazing. Which is so far the only example in this thread were somebody outright says "Don't post your opinion at all".

AngryAngel80 wrote:
So me telling you to stop telling people to dislike GW is fine but me saying let the people say what they will is bad ? Nice turn around on that one. As I said, if living and let living is just too hard and unacceptable better just get ready for the hate train as you'll change nothing and work over no one if all you want is an echo chamber which feels an awful lot like what some people seek in opinions. Not all, just some.

Sorry, I seem to not make my point clear. I wanted to highlight that you are preaching water in one sentence and drinking wine in the next. I don't see "don't tell me what to do" as a valid counter argument. If you use it, then you either have no argument or don't want to engage in a discussion. This is closer to asking for the echo chamber you mention.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

I'm not going to go around and seek out all the examples, they are there, I'm sure you can read them same as I did. Making me do pointless busy work to earn brownie points for an argument you will never agree to anyways is just a waste of both our time.

This is getting tiresome. Everytime I ask for examples for general assessments like this from someone in this thread I get either ignored or told "It is there, just read it". I'm sorry, but I read through all posts and did not come to the same conclusion as you. I would honestly appreciate it, if you could quote from this thread. I'm not trying to be annoying on purpose or make you do some work or anything. I'm interested in a good discussion and for that I would need some concrete examples.

Thank you in advance, if you go through the posts and quote some

I thought it was generally frown upon to
A. Single people out.
B. To get posts that may have been moderated on.

But if I was going to, I think of a few posts by people in this thread.
And one in another, all 3 of which have pushed positivity in the hobby.

This is the thing, I do not think voicing my opinion on the game is negative, it’s why I try and never comment on the fun of other people. Just on fun for myself.
Even if it’s hard to get the words right so that goes across.
And well, maybe I am not even seen as negative by the people I may think do here. But it’s hard to know when some on this thread can use vague insults to skirt lines, but direct them at no one.

Apple fox wrote:
I thought it was generally frown upon to
A. Single people out.
B. To get posts that may have been moderated on.

But if I was going to, I think of a few posts by people in this thread.
And one in another, all 3 of which have pushed positivity in the hobby.

This is the thing, I do not think voicing my opinion on the game is negative, it’s why I try and never comment on the fun of other people. Just on fun for myself.
Even if it’s hard to get the words right so that goes across.
And well, maybe I am not even seen as negative by the people I may think do here. But it’s hard to know when some on this thread can use vague insults to skirt lines, but direct them at no one.

As far as I am aware, singling someone's posts out isn't a violation of rule 1 it's done respectfully - as in, you can't attack a person, but you can criticise their opinion. So, while I'm not a mod, I don't see what's wrong with that. Of course, a mod is probably the arbiter on that.

As an aside, you make it sound like "pushing positivity" is a bad thing - why? What's wrong with having more positive feelings over negative ones?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I thought it was generally frown upon to
A. Single people out.
B. To get posts that may have been moderated on.

But if I was going to, I think of a few posts by people in this thread.
And one in another, all 3 of which have pushed positivity in the hobby.

This is the thing, I do not think voicing my opinion on the game is negative, it’s why I try and never comment on the fun of other people. Just on fun for myself.
Even if it’s hard to get the words right so that goes across.
And well, maybe I am not even seen as negative by the people I may think do here. But it’s hard to know when some on this thread can use vague insults to skirt lines, but direct them at no one.

As far as I am aware, singling someone's posts out isn't a violation of rule 1 it's done respectfully - as in, you can't attack a person, but you can criticise their opinion. So, while I'm not a mod, I don't see what's wrong with that. Of course, a mod is probably the arbiter on that.

As an aside, you make it sound like "pushing positivity" is a bad thing - why? What's wrong with having more positive feelings over negative ones?

Pushing positivity is great, I just do not think the people here are doing it. I think a lot of people are saying a lot of nice things, only to do exactly what they speak against.
When it’s all said, the only way to really push positivity is to be positive. And that is hard work, sometimes things get to you. But I do not think the discussion itself surrounding GW is negative.

Apple fox wrote:
But I do not think the discussion itself surrounding GW is negative.

Discussing GW is not negative. Having criticism of GW is not negative. Having dozens of threads where the same criticism is brought up, going into threads dedicated to praise and positivity solely to level those same criticisms, and some* of those criticisms to be based on flimsy "evidence" at best? That is negative. And it just makes me wonder, if all you can think of is negativity, what's the point?


*obviously not all, and many of those criticisms are based off of opinions of what we personally want most in the game, be that a tight ruleset, affordable prices, a certain type of lore, or whatever else.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
But I do not think the discussion itself surrounding GW is negative.

Discussing GW is not negative. Having criticism of GW is not negative. Having dozens of threads where the same criticism is brought up, going into threads dedicated to praise and positivity solely to level those same criticisms, and some* of those criticisms to be based on flimsy "evidence" at best? That is negative. And it just makes me wonder, if all you can think of is negativity, what's the point?


*obviously not all, and many of those criticisms are based off of opinions of what we personally want most in the game, be that a tight ruleset, affordable prices, a certain type of lore, or whatever else.

Well, I consider most threads here just a discussion. A thread dedicated to praise and positivity itself seems a catalyst for negativity. Why, because often they are not promoting any positivity but a negativity against people’s opinions.
Not always, but often enough. Evidence is a a weird thing, as it’s a discussion forum. Of corse some things need some forms of evidence but if it’s so flimsy then a response should be enough.

Threads start and die, to find new discussion. I also do not read every thread, or participate. Upon seeing this thread I had decided not to post originally.

To post in a way to only invite positivity you create that negativity is just what I think about all of this.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As far as I am aware, singling someone's posts out isn't a violation of rule 1 it's done respectfully - as in, you can't attack a person, but you can criticise their opinion. So, while I'm not a mod, I don't see what's wrong with that. Of course, a mod is probably the arbiter on that.

As an aside, you make it sound like "pushing positivity" is a bad thing - why? What's wrong with having more positive feelings over negative ones?

Well because the obligatory 8th ed is great and it is the best time to play w40k, is kind of hard to accept. When your army is neither good, nor fixed in 8th, nor does it seem as if GW is going to fix anything, and they stay super secretive about what they plan for you faction. Plus there is stranger patern breaking , first codex in 8th was marines, so 8th 2.0 started with marines, but the next updates weren't GK and DG, but eldar and more marines, and later on SoB, tyranids, BA etc. So they are skipping some armies with their updates. Now if your army does well, the probably being skiped as far as rules updates go, is a good thing. It ain't a good thing, when your army is bad though. Specially when GW in the past phased out whole factions in the past.

And it just makes me wonder, if all you can think of is negativity, what's the point?

this maybe is a stupid question for some, but how does it suppose to work? Just because other people are happpy, your suppose to be happy too or at least pretend you are, even if you are not happy yourself? Is it like lieing, where you have to say lieing is bad, but telling the truth only makes people angry and gets you in trouble?

Apple fox wrote:Well, I consider most threads here just a discussion. A thread dedicated to praise and positivity itself seems a catalyst for negativity. Why, because often they are not promoting any positivity but a negativity against people’s opinions.
Not always, but often enough. Evidence is a a weird thing, as it’s a discussion forum. Of corse some things need some forms of evidence but if it’s so flimsy then a response should be enough.

While I do wish that were the case, unfortunately, when those responses are just treated as "you're just being a shill/white knight", logic throws itself out of the window. That's not a Dakka exclusive thing, the amount of times in the real world where people believe in the flimsiest evidences and ignore everything to the contrary is staggering.

Threads start and die, to find new discussion. I also do not read every thread, or participate. Upon seeing this thread I had decided not to post originally.

To post in a way to only invite positivity you create that negativity is just what I think about all of this.

I disagree with that, personally. Positivity doesn't mean "you can't criticise GW", and in a great many cases, criticism is a great form of positive action. Just repeating the same criticism to the point of negativity is something that happens easily enough without anyone advocating for a more positive outlook. It feels like the only things people can say are the same opinions over and over again to the point where they negatively swamp everything. Likewise, if someone were always saying "GW are the best and there should be no criticism of them!", that would be negative.

But, that's just my view.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As far as I am aware, singling someone's posts out isn't a violation of rule 1 it's done respectfully - as in, you can't attack a person, but you can criticise their opinion. So, while I'm not a mod, I don't see what's wrong with that. Of course, a mod is probably the arbiter on that.

As an aside, you make it sound like "pushing positivity" is a bad thing - why? What's wrong with having more positive feelings over negative ones?

Well because the obligatory 8th ed is great and it is the best time to play w40k, is kind of hard to accept.

That's my opinion. I'm not claiming for a fact that "this is best edition ever!", but that I am enjoying this edition the most, and I personally think it's great.

I'm not denying your opinion if you feel the opposite, but your comment just there is exactly what I mean by how any kind of positive outlook is trampled upon. "I like this!"-"Well I don't, so I don't believe you." It feels like an automatic response at this point, someone says something vaguely praising GW for something, and then immediately followed up by "no, that's wrong, here's all the things wrong about it that get brought up all the time". It just feels excessive.

Basically, sorry if you don't agree with my opinion, but it's just as valid as yours.

And it just makes me wonder, if all you can think of is negativity, what's the point?

this maybe is a stupid question for some, but how does it suppose to work? Just because other people are happpy, your suppose to be happy too or at least pretend you are, even if you are not happy yourself? Is it like lieing, where you have to say lieing is bad, but telling the truth only makes people angry and gets you in trouble?

No, it's not about pretending that you're happy, or putting on a brave face and just plowing through in the hopes it'll get better. What I mean is "if all you can associate with something is negativity, maybe it's a good time to take a step back and do something that actually makes you feel good".

We're not being forced to play 40k (at least, I hope not). If it's impossible to hold back criticism to the point where it spills out into unrelated threads, maybe it's worth considering the negative impact that's having on you. Take a step back, some time out, enjoy something that you actually like. If I was playing a video game, and I started hating it, started getting bored, killed a lot, just having a bad time, why would I keep playing it? I'd play something else, maybe go back to my old game when I felt better about it or when things had gotten to a point where I liked it again.

It's not a case of "what's the point of being negative?", it's "what's the point of subjecting myself to something that only inspires negativity in me?".
Hope that clears that up.

If specific issues are repeatedly brought up when discussing 40k, that is a sign that there are problems with the game.

Blastaar wrote:
If specific issues are repeatedly brought up when discussing 40k, that is a sign that there are problems with the game.

Could you provide an example of such an issue that existed before the marine books? (Note: I'm not asserting issues dont exist)

Blastaar wrote:
I am calm. You are projecting.

I'm not seeing it, and I'm really looking for it. You know, usually when someone is making jokes about something- they're not being angry and hostile. I can laugh at a lot of things, even myself, and that generally keeps me from being quite hostile. A sense of humor is quite the versatile tool.

So, I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree by reasoning of "I'm right". Just this once, at least.

Blastaar wrote:

Even if your extreme hypothetical were true, that GW receives this kind of ire on all fronts heavily suggests that a portion of their playerbase is deeply unhappy with the present state of the game, or their other products, and are not feeling their concerns are acknowledged.

Yet they make millions of dollars. For all the unsatisfied customers that there are out there, they sure seem to have no problem throwing money at the game. See, that's kind of doing the opposite of expressing dissatisfaction. Do you tell you dog he is a good boy when he poops on the floor and bites you? No, but if you do-he'll keep pooping on the floor.

I criticize a lot of things, and have some pretty hefty and harsh criticisms. GW has been on the receiving end of my criticism in the past. When I am not happy with something, I quit spending money on it. A FINE example would be CMON, a company that loves to make a new flashy game and drop support of it after a few months in favor of a slightly similar game (Zombicide won't be seeing another PENNY of my money if they don't continue to support Invader and skip right back to 2e Zombicide instead, much like they have done before).

I only have your word to go on, and you could lie or you could be telling the truth about this and I could be wrong- but I will bet you a bag of 32mm bases that you haven't stopped buying stuff despite your problem.

"Good dog, good poopie on the carpet!" is what they hear.

Blastaar wrote:

Telling GW "grey knights are bad, fix them!" Is perfectly adequate feedback. It is not the responsibility of the players to provide GW detailed information on the problems with a product they sell- that is Games Workshop's job. Were the rules team competent, they would investigate the complaints, and work to fix the army. But they haven't.

No, it isn't. That's how children complain- they don't understand why the toy or what-have-you isn't working, and don't have the vocabulary to elaborate on the problem- so they just cry and hand the problem off to an adult.

An adult, or at least a young adult would know that elaborating on the problem and explaining how it's not working and what the problem is- that gets results. Perhaps offering suggestions or ideas also helps a lot.

I'd love to be your mechanic, and have you bring your car to me and tell me "My car is broke, fix it" and think that was enough. I'd smile and assure you that I'd take care of it once I found out what the problem is, and spend the better part of the next year 'trying to find the problem'. And just letting those lot fees pile up. Never told me the issue, so... I have limited time, garage space, employees, and materials so... this is certainly going to be a while. And if you get tired of waiting, and want it back- sure, you can have it back. Sorry about all that, just a matter of these lot fees you'll have to square up. And all you had to do was make at least some guess at what the problem was, and that could have narrowed it down and changed this whole scenario.

See? That's what happens when you start acting entitled and refusing to at least try and express what the problem is with something. No one can help you if you're not willing to communicate, and no one should help you- your complaint should be ignored.

Deadnight wrote:
Another take is thst there is a subset of bitter, miserable customers who will never be satisfied with anything that is presented to them. And who cannot ever be pleased.

With respect, while this is hyperbole, I have met enough gamers who I could only describe as self centred, entitled and bitter to see at least some of that in all the negativity that gets posted.

There is certainly a vocal minority of people that are always pissed off and complaining. Case in point- "Third edition guy" that's always there to complain about how all the rules suck and the models suck, and he's been doing this since after third...in other words, he's been doing this for fifteen years. That's some kind of psychological problem right there, or a sign of some other serious issues- putting it nicely.

I could speculate on why they do this, but a lot of it I think is less actual dissatisfaction with the product and more a symptom of someone who spent their whole life whining to their parents to get what they want or make themselves the center of attention, and sometimes these habits die hard. If enough people ignore the, they'll be forced to adapt once they realize whining doesn't get them results.

Now, don't get me wrong- GW isn't a generous relative and these releases are not 'gifts'. I don't have to be grateful. I can be displeased. And I should express displeasure if I am displeased, of course. I been mad for YEARS about not getting proper Chaos Warriors (up until yesterday), and I flat-out refused to spend money on Age of Sigmar because I thought it was absolutely absurd that they just ignored one of the staples of Warhammer in favor of Khorne Murderstrokers and Bloodbelchers or whatever. Didn't give them one cent. Complained, and stated specifically what I'd like to see. Now I got it, I'll spend the money (if there's no issues, at least).

Everyone wants to whine, but no one wants to speak with their wallet. Same guys that complain incessantly about this game are usually over-drafting their accounts to buy the newest toy from GW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Blastaar wrote:
If specific issues are repeatedly brought up when discussing 40k, that is a sign that there are problems with the game.

Could you provide an example of such an issue that existed before the marine books? (Note: I'm not asserting issues dont exist)

I think the most agreed upon is the poor excuse for terrain rules in the core game. It also ties directly into the lack of game mechanics in the core rules as the core rules are extremely bare bones for a tactical table top war game.