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Wayniac wrote:
Slayer I get what you're saying and I agree for the most part but you really are coming off like a selfish ass who doesn't care about anything but your own enjoyment with the way you're wording some of those statements...

I play the game to relax, not to negotiate with my opponent on what's okay and what's not. Only 40k has THAT many issues for a pickup game and the fact that people are DEFENDING this is inexcusable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry, but I don't have to be "friends" with my opponent during a game anymore than I have to be "friends" with my coworkers on the clock.

I agree with Deadnight and find it to be a weak defense of your own position to just give a one liner saying "I don't want to be friends, duh"

Out of curiosity: How did you feel about yourself in the past when you were at the receiving end because the army you picked had weak rules and your co-player brought a tournament list?

Edit: Everybody here is admitting that the game got issues and needs work/talk beforehand. Nobody is denying that. People say that with a different attitude you can circumvent specific problems.

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". Ever heard of that?

Wayniac wrote:
Slayer I get what you're saying and I agree for the most part but you really are coming off like a selfish ass who doesn't care about anything but your own enjoyment with the way you're wording some of those statements...

If we take slayer at his word thats because he IS. given his words it's pretty clear to me he plays EXCLUSIVLY at tournies if he plays at all, and does NOT have a local play group

BrianDavion wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Slayer I get what you're saying and I agree for the most part but you really are coming off like a selfish ass who doesn't care about anything but your own enjoyment with the way you're wording some of those statements...

If we take slayer at his word thats because he IS. given his words it's pretty clear to me he plays EXCLUSIVLY at tournies if he plays at all, and does NOT have a local play group

Its certainly his choice and his opinion on the subject. And those who follow his choices and opinion will continue to be dissatisfied with what GW is offering.

he really only has two options. to change or to gak on GW to continue to galvanize his own play style. he will just need to accept that forum goers will get pretty tired of his gaking of a topic many people enjoy in many different ways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Slayer I get what you're saying and I agree for the most part but you really are coming off like a selfish ass who doesn't care about anything but your own enjoyment with the way you're wording some of those statements...

I play the game to relax, not to negotiate with my opponent on what's okay and what's not. Only 40k has THAT many issues for a pickup game and the fact that people are DEFENDING this is inexcusable.

Dude every game has that problem. If one person brings a strong tournament list, deck etc and the other person brings a weak list, deck etc the second person gets stomped. That is true for 40k, MTG, warmahordes, infinity, AOS, etc.

Talking to your opponent before a pick up game is important for all these games.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I play the game to relax, not to negotiate with my opponent on what's okay and what's not. Only 40k has THAT many issues for a pickup game and the fact that people are DEFENDING this is inexcusable.

Dude every game has that problem. If one person brings a strong tournament list, deck etc and the other person brings a weak list, deck etc the second person gets stomped. That is true for 40k, MTG, warmahordes, infinity, AOS, etc.

This is why I've always felt competitive is the most casual way to approach a game. I bring a tournament list; I can play a game with anyone; there's no negotiation; my opponent and I both play to the best of our abilities; someone wins; someone loses; fun is had regardless. That's always been my idea of casual. That doesn't mean I have to run only the most competitive list possible; it just means that if I want to run something less I'm more likely to lose and that's okay too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Sorry, but I don't have to be "friends" with my opponent during a game anymore than I have to be "friends" with my coworkers on the clock.

Indeed, you don't have to be friends with coworkers. You don't have to lift a finger. You can be all about you, all of the time and not give one iota for anyone else. But I'll tell you a secret though - it bloody well helps being friends with your colleagues, collaborating and being accomodating, and talking things through with them to get the work of the day done and to 'firefight' and deal with all of the problems that arise. Shockingly, this is also true for your gaming community. Treating everyone else as a step up from an npc that you don't have actually to care about is one long winding road to nowhere if you ask me. You wouldn't treat your friends or your partner this way, would you?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Slayer I get what you're saying and I agree for the most part but you really are coming off like a selfish ass who doesn't care about anything but your own enjoyment with the way you're wording some of those statements...

I play the game to relax, not to negotiate with my opponent on what's okay and what's not. Only 40k has THAT many issues for a pickup game and the fact that people are DEFENDING this is inexcusable.

I also play the game to relax. Do you know what stresses me out? Broken games and players that insist on wielding those jagged edges as weapons because 'the win' is all important and shrugging their shoulders at the impossibility of their own responsibility or ownership of their own gaming.
I'll be honest - like I said, like you, I also play wargames to relax. I'm happy to talk things out and game-build. To me, it doesn't take away from the hobby. I find it helps to make better, more enjoyable and often, interesting games (and not just for gw games- we've probably homebrewed and houserules nearly every game we have played). Your mileage may vary, and that is perfectly fair. But don't dismiss it with such contempt.

And I am not 'defending' that 40k has issues(every game does. As a pick up game, warmachine was extremely open to issues. Heck, every game is). I'm offering a different approach to gaming, that at least for me, has reinvigorated and rejuvenated my hobby immensely over the last five years. It's far from 'inexcuseable'. You sir, need to get some perspective.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Slayer I get what you're saying and I agree for the most part but you really are coming off like a selfish ass who doesn't care about anything but your own enjoyment with the way you're wording some of those statements...

I play the game to relax, not to negotiate with my opponent on what's okay and what's not. Only 40k has THAT many issues for a pickup game and the fact that people are DEFENDING this is inexcusable.

Dude every game has that problem. If one person brings a strong tournament list, deck etc and the other person brings a weak list, deck etc the second person gets stomped. That is true for 40k, MTG, warmahordes, infinity, AOS, etc.

Talking to your opponent before a pick up game is important for all these games.

Sorry but MtG and Warmahordes/Machine at minimum do not have that issue. That's basically lying, even WITH the multiple formats MtG has.

I can't speak for Infinity but based on what I've seen in the SF bay area this issue doesn't apply to AoS. So no, you don't know what you're talking about.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry but MtG and Warmahordes/Machine at minimum do not have that issue. That's basically lying, even WITH the multiple formats MtG has.

Eh, no. Warmachine, for all that it's balance was pretty decent, it was very much prone to match up issues. A lot of casters were flat out hard counters to others, almost to the point of NPE. Similarly, Bring a strong tourney list versus a weak one, you are pretty much guaranteed a stomping. This was especially exacerbated at lower points levels.

Deadnight wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Sorry, but I don't have to be "friends" with my opponent during a game anymore than I have to be "friends" with my coworkers on the clock.

Indeed, you don't have to be friends with coworkers. You don't have to lift a finger. You can be all about you, all of the time and not give one iota for anyone else. But I'll tell you a secret though - it bloody well helps being friends with your colleagues, collaborating and being accomodating, and talking things through with them to get the work of the day done and to 'firefight' and deal with all of the problems that arise. Shockingly, this is also true for your gaming community. Treating everyone else as a step up from an npc that you don't have actually to care about is one long winding road to nowhere if you ask me. You wouldn't treat your friends or your partner this way, would you?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Slayer I get what you're saying and I agree for the most part but you really are coming off like a selfish ass who doesn't care about anything but your own enjoyment with the way you're wording some of those statements...

I play the game to relax, not to negotiate with my opponent on what's okay and what's not. Only 40k has THAT many issues for a pickup game and the fact that people are DEFENDING this is inexcusable.

I also play the game to relax. Do you know what stresses me out? Broken games and players that insist on wielding those jagged edges as weapons because 'the win' is all important and shrugging their shoulders at the impossibility of their own responsibility or ownership of their own gaming.
I'll be honest - like I said, like you, I also play wargames to relax. I'm happy to talk things out and game-build. To me, it doesn't take away from the hobby. I find it helps to make better, more enjoyable and often, interesting games (and not just for gw games- we've probably homebrewed and houserules nearly every game we have played). Your mileage may vary, and that is perfectly fair. But don't dismiss it with such contempt.

And I am not 'defending' that 40k has issues(every game does. As a pick up game, warmachine was extremely open to issues. Heck, every game is). I'm offering a different approach to gaming, that at least for me, has reinvigorated and rejuvenated my hobby immensely over the last five years. It's far from 'inexcuseable'. You sir, need to get some perspective.

It's not my job to accommodate my coworkers and "be friends". I have friends already. I don't have time for that kind of garbage. I'm there to make sure things in my department are done correctly and when other departments try to get in the way? I tell them to bugger off. This is why I'm great at admitting patients because I don't let the drama happen in the first place.

Any issues with the building aren't supposed to go through coworkers. They go through the higher admins and even the state as necessary. Obviously we don't want subpar care for our family members. Why do you support subpar rules for our instead of taking it to GW instead of DOING THEIR JOB FOR THEM?

I've sent multiple emails. The game deserves better, and you deserve better, even if you're delusional and don't see it yet. As of now, until we get the changes we actually deserve, GW will never get money from me directly ever again.

Deadnight wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry but MtG and Warmahordes/Machine at minimum do not have that issue. That's basically lying, even WITH the multiple formats MtG has.

Eh, no. Warmachine was very prone to match up issues. Bring a strong tourney list versus a weak one, you are pretty much guaranteed a stomping.

Mean while in magic there is like 1-2 maybe 3 archetypes at most that tend to dominate in standard alone. it becomes horrifically apparent how unbalanced that game gets once you look at modern. and the literal endless complaining about the secondary market for broken and reserve list cards.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry, but I don't have to be "friends" with my opponent during a game anymore than I have to be "friends" with my coworkers on the clock.

I agree with Deadnight and find it to be a weak defense of your own position to just give a one liner saying "I don't want to be friends, duh"

Out of curiosity: How did you feel about yourself in the past when you were at the receiving end because the army you picked had weak rules and your co-player brought a tournament list?

Edit: Everybody here is admitting that the game got issues and needs work/talk beforehand. Nobody is denying that. People say that with a different attitude you can circumvent specific problems.

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". Ever heard of that?

Actually part of the problem is the players talking, because this doesn't actually change the state of the rules. The more the game is pushed to the limits, the more problems can be found and reported to GW.

The problem is people like you just sitting there and not going to GW with said problems.

Lol it's hilarious when people get upset that the hobby might require a level of social restraint or aptitude.

 Desubot wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sorry but MtG and Warmahordes/Machine at minimum do not have that issue. That's basically lying, even WITH the multiple formats MtG has.

Eh, no. Warmachine was very prone to match up issues. Bring a strong tourney list versus a weak one, you are pretty much guaranteed a stomping.

Mean while in magic there is like 1-2 maybe 3 archetypes at most that tend to dominate in standard alone. it becomes horrifically apparent how unbalanced that game gets once you look at modern. and the literal endless complaining about the secondary market for broken and reserve list cards.

Yeah that's just how card games work, and yes people should be punished for making terrible choices in their decks like choosing a card because "it's got neat artwork" or "that's my waifu". There's always 3-4 decks that dominate a season/format. At least MtG does better than Yugioh for that kind of balancing.

Ohhh boiiii.
I mean i understand you Slayer-Fan but you don't need to fething let your frustration out on your fellow hobbiests.
There are few enough of us.

And yes i am very much in the Camp that regards gw rulewriting as a shame.
That doesn't mean i need to be a prick about it with Franz at the hobby store now does it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol it's hilarious when people get upset that the hobby might require a level of social restraint or aptitude.

Considering that it is pretty Safe to say that society as a whole has certain social contracts at play yes it is indeed hillarious.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yeah that's just how card games work, and yes people should be punished for making terrible choices in their decks like choosing a card because "it's got neat artwork" or "that's my waifu". There's always 3-4 decks that dominate a season/format. At least MtG does better than Yugioh for that kind of balancing.

Its not a choice when 4 of the 60 cards required would cost more a 2000 point 40k army.

anyway the point was mtg does have the same problems per the original chain. and while its not exactly the rules causing the problems (unless it is) the individual pieces cause an unbelievable amount of unbalance that shifts and pushes many people out of the game and starts all the same pattern of complaining that GW receives.

Wotc also has similar if not worse predatory sales tactic than GW.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually part of the problem is the players talking, because this doesn't actually change the state of the rules. The more the game is pushed to the limits, the more problems can be found and reported to GW.
The problem is people like you just sitting there and not going to GW with said problems.

What I did when the game did not suit me anymore, was to take a break from the hobby for several years where I neither played it, nor spend any money on GW products.
You can write an essay to GW every day about your perceived problems with the game (and that you do it is a good thing, honestly), but a solution for it won't come tomorrow. You can be nice to the guy you are going to play with tomorrow at your local store immediately, though. Does not make the rules better, but the game more enjoyable.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ohhh boiiii.
I mean i understand you Slayer-Fan but you don't need to fething let your frustration out on your fellow hobbiests.
There are few enough of us.

And yes i am very much in the Camp that regards gw rulewriting as a shame.
That doesn't mean i need to be a prick about it with Franz at the hobby store now does it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol it's hilarious when people get upset that the hobby might require a level of social restraint or aptitude.

Considering that it is pretty Safe to say that society as a whole has certain social contracts at play yes it is indeed hillarious.

I'm not a prick to my opponent. I simply don't expect them to tell me what to bring, and I don't tell them what to bring either. The two should just be able to bring strong, TAC lists and may the best person win.

That's apparently a lot to ask for according to the people defending the OP.

I think most people are complaining about how you stated your opinion more than the opinion itself. I doubt too many people will argue that 40k doesn't need better balance (at least enough that no list should "auto-lose" against any other), but statements like "I don't have to be friends with my opponent" and "my opponent's enjoyment isn't my concern" are immediately gonna make people think you're a TFG. Phrasing is incredibly important in any discussion, and you chose your phrasing very poorly.

"You are not wrong Rick. You are just an ass hole"

Every single game outside the tournament scene needs a social contract to work.
All the time, when for example we go to a party and the host pulls out a shooter, or a mario kart, or a fighting game for people to play, I have to play relaxed because most of the people present arent as skilled in videogames as me.
Sometimes I encounter someone at my level or even better and we have epic duels for the ages, and thats even better. But I also have fun going more easy on friends, or other people at the party, because they are having fun too.
This does not justify GW balancing. But the notion that outside of a tournament I should have 0 considerations over how I behave based in my opponent is as wrong as american of a mindset.

 Galas wrote:
is as wrong as american of a mindset.

Wut?

Probably an "error in translation". Well... I hope.

I think what he's saying is the idea that you don't have an olbligation to your opponent to ensure everyone has a fun good time is a wrong mind set and it's one that is "uniquely American". There is a common belief among the rest of the west, that America, as a society tends to be much more individual focused then europe. "Why doesn't America supply universal health care? Because Americans are greedier then us and won't accept a small increase in their taxes to take care of socities more vunerable" Not sure I entirely belive this as I've seen some Europeans suggest they have some pretty toxic communities (Karol for example)

 Galas wrote:
"You are not wrong Rick. You are just an ass hole"

Every single game outside the tournament scene needs a social contract to work.
All the time, when for example we go to a party and the host pulls out a shooter, or a mario kart, or a fighting game for people to play, I have to play relaxed because most of the people present arent as skilled in videogames as me.
Sometimes I encounter someone at my level or even better and we have epic duels for the ages, and thats even better. But I also have fun going more easy on friends, or other people at the party, because they are having fun too.
This does not justify GW balancing. But the notion that outside of a tournament I should have 0 considerations over how I behave based in my opponent is as wrong as american of a mindset.

The question is, why are you not playing at your regular level? Why would your friends ask you to dumb yourself down? WHY is there an obligation to do that but not for them to improve at said game at all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
I think most people are complaining about how you stated your opinion more than the opinion itself. I doubt too many people will argue that 40k doesn't need better balance (at least enough that no list should "auto-lose" against any other), but statements like "I don't have to be friends with my opponent" and "my opponent's enjoyment isn't my concern" are immediately gonna make people think you're a TFG. Phrasing is incredibly important in any discussion, and you chose your phrasing very poorly.

Even if I phrased it poorly, the point remains the same. I'm not obligated to do GW's job for a fair game, and the more that people defend the OP and do that instead of taking their problems to GW, the less likely the problem actually gets solved.

Whilst Slayer-Fan perhaps comes across as a little callous, I think his overall point is nevertheless correct.

Not least because trying to balance armies in order to get a close game isn't necessary easy even when you're aware of the problem.

I've had games where I've played what I thought was a reasonably competitive list, only to get curb-stomped in a one-sided battle. And I've likewise played lists that I thought sacrificed power for fun/flavour, only for them to end up curb-stomping my opponent anyway.

I mean, this is supposed to be the entire purpose of having a points system in the first place. If points are going to bear little to no resemblance to the actual worth of a given unit (and by extension the power of a given army), then we might as well just go the (initial) AoS route. Just have each player dump a random pile of models on the table and see what happens.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
"You are not wrong Rick. You are just an ass hole"

Every single game outside the tournament scene needs a social contract to work.
All the time, when for example we go to a party and the host pulls out a shooter, or a mario kart, or a fighting game for people to play, I have to play relaxed because most of the people present arent as skilled in videogames as me.
Sometimes I encounter someone at my level or even better and we have epic duels for the ages, and thats even better. But I also have fun going more easy on friends, or other people at the party, because they are having fun too.
This does not justify GW balancing. But the notion that outside of a tournament I should have 0 considerations over how I behave based in my opponent is as wrong as american of a mindset.

The question is, why are you not playing at your regular level? Why would your friends ask you to dumb yourself down? WHY is there an obligation to do that but not for them to improve at said game at all?

its a party not an Esports tournament...?

what is your obsession with Obligations. no one is obligated to do anything. you make your choices as much as everyone else makes theirs.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
"You are not wrong Rick. You are just an ass hole"

Every single game outside the tournament scene needs a social contract to work.
All the time, when for example we go to a party and the host pulls out a shooter, or a mario kart, or a fighting game for people to play, I have to play relaxed because most of the people present arent as skilled in videogames as me.
Sometimes I encounter someone at my level or even better and we have epic duels for the ages, and thats even better. But I also have fun going more easy on friends, or other people at the party, because they are having fun too.
This does not justify GW balancing. But the notion that outside of a tournament I should have 0 considerations over how I behave based in my opponent is as wrong as american of a mindset.

The question is, why are you not playing at your regular level? Why would your friends ask you to dumb yourself down? WHY is there an obligation to do that but not for them to improve at said game at all?

its a party not an Esports tournament...?

what is your obsession with Obligations. no one is obligated to do anything. you make your choices as much as everyone else makes theirs.

I love the moment that you decide to try and win, it's all the sudden a tournament and you're now a bad friend.

That's amazing, really. You also had yet to explain the problem and deflected it to the fact I use the word "obligation".

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol it's hilarious when people get upset that the hobby might require a level of social restraint or aptitude.

Why not try reading what people post for a change, instead of attempting to provoke them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
"You are not wrong Rick. You are just an ass hole"

Every single game outside the tournament scene needs a social contract to work.
All the time, when for example we go to a party and the host pulls out a shooter, or a mario kart, or a fighting game for people to play, I have to play relaxed because most of the people present arent as skilled in videogames as me.
Sometimes I encounter someone at my level or even better and we have epic duels for the ages, and thats even better. But I also have fun going more easy on friends, or other people at the party, because they are having fun too.
This does not justify GW balancing. But the notion that outside of a tournament I should have 0 considerations over how I behave based in my opponent is as wrong as american of a mindset.

i know you are responding to some poorly expressed posts, so I won't touch most of what you said, but-

Wow. Please explain.How is playing to win a moral failing in Americans?

You don't actually believe that behaving like jackasses when playing games is somehow a facet of American culture, do you?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I love the moment that you decide to try and win, it's all the sudden a tournament and you're now a bad friend.

Are you insinuating that anyone that plays handicapped for fun will automatically lose control and go for the kill as though it was a tournament?

or are you trying to say something else because i dont get it.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I love the moment that you decide to try and win, it's all the sudden a tournament and you're now a bad friend.

Are you insinuating that anyone that plays handicapped for fun will automatically lose control and go for the kill as though it was a tournament?

or are you trying to say something else because i dont get it.

You're both throwing the most extreme examples of each others' viewpoint at each other as a strawman to make a point.