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 Mr Morden wrote:
[

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
DA, BA and SW can stand alone as factions with their own Codexes (Codices?) as they have enough differentiation in models/aesthetic, lore, units and playstyle without consuming too much in the way of GW resources. Their lore is long-established with enough folks that care about it to sustain sales. At the end of the day factions that give a good return on their investment to GW will survive/grow and those that don't will decline/vanish. I am sure that the suits at GW look at sales figures for Dark Angels books and models over the last two decades when they are making decisions. New factions represent risk in terms of resources. DA, BA, SW are much less of a risk.

Now, could the Dark Angels receive a Supplement instead of a Codex? Well, I suppose, but it would be a rather huge supplement unless we are cutting something. There are units from the main SM Codex that the DA do not have access to. This is part of what makes them different - see my first line. Dark Angels players get their own unique units in exchange. Whether its worth it is an individual player's choice and nobody else's. They have plenty of unique units and stratagems. They have lots of distinct, established lore. Then I have to buy two books. With the current construct I only have to buy my one DA Codex. I'm good with that.

I get that some here do not like those factions. You don't have to buy them. That's what I don't understand about some of the rather vehement emotion here. Don't like Space Wolves? Don't buy them. I don't see how they are hurting you or the hobby.

Because the narrow focuss on the Marine subfaction and then even narrower focus on a few Marine sub-sub factions removes huge amounts of focus, effort and resources from....anything else - thats why. Why am I restricted in just adding to my Wolves or Angels armies and not other factions

Also because of the pretend unqiue units - yeah we have a different gun, or we can have chainswords - the vanilla unit has to be worse and the hundreds of other Chapters that would use these options can't.

As always if you push one product ALL the time, give it new rules, own codexes, slightly different rules to pretend the units are actually different then shock horrror they might just maybe sell.....

Lastly the sheet awfulness of the last decades lore and models for the Angels and Wolves is sad.

Mr Morden,

My counter is that the distinct Space Marine factions are in a sweet spot that a new faction would not be. The resources required for a new Dark Angels Codex pale in comparison to a new faction. There is little risk to GW: there is an established player base that like the established lore, models, unique units and playstyle. Focusing again just on Dark Angels, they have unique Land Speeders, flyers and Black Knights without talking about variations with the Deathwing and Named Characters. You don't agree. That's fine - you don't have to, just like you don't have to buy them. It appears that enough people do like and buy them to keep the faction going.

Your last line regarding the "sheer awfulness of the last decade's lore and models for Angels and Wolves is sad" is your opinion. You are entitled to that opinion, but it's hardly a reason to roll those factions into the main Space Marine faction. Your tastes should guide your own choices and not those of others. You seem to want to impose your tastes on others. Your real input is through your wallet, just like mine and everybody else.

Cheers,

T2B

 Sentineil wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That doesn't make GW correct. GW, in fact, says many things that end up being incorrect.

What's your point at that point? Just listen and be a good customer?

GW makes supplement codexes, and has done for 20 years because people want them.

Thankfully most people disagree with you and we have variety in the game.

We have variety for Marines - FA for anyone else - but apparently thats what you want....

People do use the sanguinary priest for that +str. Its really strong with +1 to wound. Makes chainswords wound t8 on 4+ and t4 on 2+. He also have ws2+ and 6 attacks that wound t4 on 2s. Giving a unit of DC +1 str is incredible against t4, t5 and t8. DC TH wounds t8 on 2s then.

I wouldnt use a Sanguinary priest now that the invictors are out since I dont have the points for 3 battalions anymore but it is a good HQ that is more used for its str bonus than its heal I would say. I could still see him go or get made in to a strat or something in order to get a supplement. Would rather always be on the same playing field as the other marines no matter if it would make BA slightly weaker in some editions. Being too different in powerlevel between marines bother me more than how it stacks against the rest of the armies. We marines should stick together

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That doesn't make GW correct. GW, in fact, says many things that end up being incorrect.

What's your point at that point? Just listen and be a good customer?

GW makes supplement codexes, and has done for 20 years because people want them.

Thankfully most people disagree with you and we have variety in the game.

We have variety for Marines - FA for anyone else - but apparently thats what you want....

except thats not true, yes we have tons of space marines but it's not like other armies don't have ANYTHING.

Are you trying to argue that a Faction with only one Codex has enough variety while simultaneously arguing that putting all Space Marines into one Codex wouldn't be enough variety?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
[

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
DA, BA and SW can stand alone as factions with their own Codexes (Codices?) as they have enough differentiation in models/aesthetic, lore, units and playstyle without consuming too much in the way of GW resources. Their lore is long-established with enough folks that care about it to sustain sales. At the end of the day factions that give a good return on their investment to GW will survive/grow and those that don't will decline/vanish. I am sure that the suits at GW look at sales figures for Dark Angels books and models over the last two decades when they are making decisions. New factions represent risk in terms of resources. DA, BA, SW are much less of a risk.

Now, could the Dark Angels receive a Supplement instead of a Codex? Well, I suppose, but it would be a rather huge supplement unless we are cutting something. There are units from the main SM Codex that the DA do not have access to. This is part of what makes them different - see my first line. Dark Angels players get their own unique units in exchange. Whether its worth it is an individual player's choice and nobody else's. They have plenty of unique units and stratagems. They have lots of distinct, established lore. Then I have to buy two books. With the current construct I only have to buy my one DA Codex. I'm good with that.

I get that some here do not like those factions. You don't have to buy them. That's what I don't understand about some of the rather vehement emotion here. Don't like Space Wolves? Don't buy them. I don't see how they are hurting you or the hobby.

Because the narrow focuss on the Marine subfaction and then even narrower focus on a few Marine sub-sub factions removes huge amounts of focus, effort and resources from....anything else - thats why. Why am I restricted in just adding to my Wolves or Angels armies and not other factions

Also because of the pretend unqiue units - yeah we have a different gun, or we can have chainswords - the vanilla unit has to be worse and the hundreds of other Chapters that would use these options can't.

As always if you push one product ALL the time, give it new rules, own codexes, slightly different rules to pretend the units are actually different then shock horrror they might just maybe sell.....

Lastly the sheet awfulness of the last decades lore and models for the Angels and Wolves is sad.

Mr Morden,

My counter is that the distinct Space Marine factions are in a sweet spot that a new faction would not be. The resources required for a new Dark Angels Codex pale in comparison to a new faction. There is little risk to GW: there is an established player base that like the established lore, models, unique units and playstyle. Focusing again just on Dark Angels, they have unique Land Speeders, flyers and Black Knights without talking about variations with the Deathwing and Named Characters. You don't agree. That's fine - you don't have to, just like you don't have to buy them. It appears that enough people do like and buy them to keep the faction going.

Your last line regarding the "sheer awfulness of the last decade's lore and models for Angels and Wolves is sad" is your opinion. You are entitled to that opinion, but it's hardly a reason to roll those factions into the main Space Marine faction. Your tastes should guide your own choices and not those of others. You seem to want to impose your tastes on others. Your real input is through your wallet, just like mine and everybody else.

Cheers,

T2B

As I clearly stated my non Marine collecting is already imposed on by the constant and unrelenting Marine releases - which will now only get worse. Lets not keep prenteding that gettign stuff for our Marines does not mean other factions get little or no releases.

But hey I am sure eventually you will get your pure Marines vs Marines game.

Look at the Latest news release for Psychic Awakening 2 - whats the headline:

New Stuff for Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines

- well what a shock

 flandarz wrote:
Are you trying to argue that a Faction with only one Codex has enough variety while simultaneously arguing that putting all Space Marines into one Codex wouldn't be enough variety?

Technically it would be right due to there sales carrying most of the xenos races that are not Tau it’s true marines have kind of sprawled out. However while most xenos races are 1 codex they have never had anything taken away from the to achieve that, if you combined marines back at this stage you are effectively taking things away from players for no reason other than envy a kind of “well if I cannot have anything then marine players should lose there stuff” this is bad and would be futile anyway as the chances this would achieve anything would be zero. Marines would still get more model releases and would still get more rules due to the number of models in the line than xenos because GW will always prioritise what sells.

Besides be careful what you wish for or you could be paying for a codex and then a “supplement” with a dozen pages of rules to run your army and remember GW how can I say this lack consistency when writing rules so even if you get a supplement it could be gak.

Saying that I don’t disagree that marines should not have got to this stage rather than multiple books many years ago they should have released 2 books the 1st for codex compliant chapters including the blood and dark angels and the 2nd for non codex compliant chapters including the Black Templar’s and space wolves. The few actual special units that blood angels and dark angels used would have fit easily and would have required non of the gak filler like the flying pulpit etc. The 2nd book would have allowed them to have more design room for using existing models and units in new ways like crusader squads and wolf guard being able to be attached to other units etc and for new units to be made that could stand out without terrible gimmicks I mean space wolves would probably have benefited most from not having being given a codex no flying brick, no wolves riding wolves and no fething Santa’s sled there basically a parody army now thanks to needing to fill a codex and be different.

Besides there have been supplements for xenos before and they will be again, will they be as extensive as the marines probably not but they will happen I can see Tau getting enclaves back, you know actually now I think about it I might be wrong I could see the Tau easily because of there extensive range and that the factions still use the same miniatures.
However Dark Elder for example have a codex that is split in 3 effectively and my understanding is this is quite a handicap so would making it 3 stand alone supplements with at best 1 character miniature each like the marines be an improvement?
Elder could work given there CW differences tend to be in troop ratios used rather than exclusive units and the supplements could reflect this pretty much like the marines have. Orks could be the same as again the clan differences are much more in line with marines and elder rather than DE.

Hmm I don’t know maybe we will see more stand alone armies supplanting and supporting existing armies like GSC to nids rather than supplements for some. While not xenos I just don’t see guard getting supplements for regiments they no longer make, I could see the imperial army or solar auxiliary being reformed as a new range to support the guard.

I don’t know even after all these years trying to figure out what GW will do comes down to throwing darts at post it notes which is pretty much what they do I think.

I do keep 2 things in mind though 1. Marines sell 2. Anything not in power army sells better when launched than when updated.

SeanDrake wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Are you trying to argue that a Faction with only one Codex has enough variety while simultaneously arguing that putting all Space Marines into one Codex wouldn't be enough variety?

Technically it would be right due to there sales carrying most of the xenos races that are not Tau it’s true marines have kind of sprawled out. However while most xenos races are 1 codex they have never had anything taken away from the to achieve that, if you combined marines back at this stage you are effectively taking things away from players for no reason other than envy a kind of “well if I cannot have anything then marine players should lose there stuff” this is bad and would be futile anyway as the chances this would achieve anything would be zero. Marines would still get more model releases and would still get more rules due to the number of models in the line than xenos because GW will always prioritise what sells.

Besides be careful what you wish for or you could be paying for a codex and then a “supplement” with a dozen pages of rules to run your army and remember GW how can I say this lack consistency when writing rules so even if you get a supplement it could be gak.

Saying that I don’t disagree that marines should not have got to this stage rather than multiple books many years ago they should have released 2 books the 1st for codex compliant chapters including the blood and dark angels and the 2nd for non codex compliant chapters including the Black Templar’s and space wolves. The few actual special units that blood angels and dark angels used would have fit easily and would have required non of the gak filler like the flying pulpit etc. The 2nd book would have allowed them to have more design room for using existing models and units in new ways like crusader squads and wolf guard being able to be attached to other units etc and for new units to be made that could stand out without terrible gimmicks I mean space wolves would probably have benefited most from not having being given a codex no flying brick, no wolves riding wolves and no fething Santa’s sled there basically a parody army now thanks to needing to fill a codex and be different.

I agree consolidating codices wou;d achomplish NOTHING. Primaris Marines largely HAS been consolidated, since 8th edition launched, blood angels, dark angels have space wolves have gotten, a grand total of 1 new distinct unit each. (by distinct I mean something eaither unique to them and them alone, or at least has their iconography) and those distinct things where just Leuitenants, (and in the case of blood angels didn't even have any weaponry to make them distinct) they have however gotten a large number of new units shared with every marine faction. this hasn't reduced the number of marine releases though.

I agree that consolidating now would mean a lot of beloved units would likely have to go. But I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. A smaller pool of Codexes, units, Stratagems, etc. would mean less that requires balancing, errata, and FAQs.

I think I mentioned earlier that what GW should have done, if they wanted a good wargame, would have been to release 40k with the 10 Factions I mentioned earlier (including sub-Factions), a double handful of units each, and like 5 Stratagems and Wargear options. Then, over time, they could release more stuff in smaller batches. Stuff they could properly write up and playtest. That's IF GW's goal was to create a good wargame.

But, as you said (and I mentioned before) GW isn't a wargame company. They're a model company that uses a wargame to sell models. So, they don't want to do what would be good for the game and bad for their bottom line, even if it would only be bad for a short time. And people hanging onto their "variety" regardless of the state of the game don't help matters.

Again: I'd rather have a solid game without many options than to have a thousand options attached to a bad game. And I don't even think 40k is all that bad. But I DO think it can be better.

 flandarz wrote:
I agree that consolidating now would mean a lot of beloved units would likely have to go. But I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. A smaller pool of Codexes, units, Stratagems, etc. would mean less that requires balancing, errata, and FAQs.

I think I mentioned earlier that what GW should have done, if they wanted a good wargame, would have been to release 40k with the 10 Factions I mentioned earlier (including sub-Factions), a double handful of units each, and like 5 Stratagems and Wargear options. Then, over time, they could release more stuff in smaller batches. Stuff they could properly write up and playtest. That's IF GW's goal was to create a good wargame.

But, as you said (and I mentioned before) GW isn't a wargame company. They're a model company that uses a wargame to sell models. So, they don't want to do what would be good for the game and bad for their bottom line, even if it would only be bad for a short time. And people hanging onto their "variety" regardless of the state of the game don't help matters.

Again: I'd rather have a solid game without many options than to have a thousand options attached to a bad game. And I don't even think 40k is all that bad. But I DO think it can be better.

As most so called unique units are little more than weapons options or a rule or two - they can easily be taken as options in the vanilla units.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I agree that consolidating now would mean a lot of beloved units would likely have to go. But I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. A smaller pool of Codexes, units, Stratagems, etc. would mean less that requires balancing, errata, and FAQs.

I think I mentioned earlier that what GW should have done, if they wanted a good wargame, would have been to release 40k with the 10 Factions I mentioned earlier (including sub-Factions), a double handful of units each, and like 5 Stratagems and Wargear options. Then, over time, they could release more stuff in smaller batches. Stuff they could properly write up and playtest. That's IF GW's goal was to create a good wargame.

But, as you said (and I mentioned before) GW isn't a wargame company. They're a model company that uses a wargame to sell models. So, they don't want to do what would be good for the game and bad for their bottom line, even if it would only be bad for a short time. And people hanging onto their "variety" regardless of the state of the game don't help matters.

Again: I'd rather have a solid game without many options than to have a thousand options attached to a bad game. And I don't even think 40k is all that bad. But I DO think it can be better.

As most so called unique units are little more than weapons options or a rule or two - they can easily be taken as options in the vanilla units.

You just described pretty much every xenos unit as well from aspect warriors to gaunts, but ok say you got your way and all the marines get squatted down too one codex what do you expect to happen then what do you think it will achieve?
A golden age where every xenos race is showered with plastic units? Xenos Codexes to get supplements to replace what you just complained about with the marines?

I have a feeling the reality would disappoint you whatever you are expecting chances are if less marines were made then either less 40k stuff would be produced over all or new armies are produced wholesale like AoS with the odd bone thrown to the existing xenos.

Because if GW were given the choice of updating Orks and making £x or releasing a board game in the same production slot and making £y then as long y is greater than x we get a board game.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I agree that consolidating now would mean a lot of beloved units would likely have to go. But I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. A smaller pool of Codexes, units, Stratagems, etc. would mean less that requires balancing, errata, and FAQs.

I think I mentioned earlier that what GW should have done, if they wanted a good wargame, would have been to release 40k with the 10 Factions I mentioned earlier (including sub-Factions), a double handful of units each, and like 5 Stratagems and Wargear options. Then, over time, they could release more stuff in smaller batches. Stuff they could properly write up and playtest. That's IF GW's goal was to create a good wargame.

But, as you said (and I mentioned before) GW isn't a wargame company. They're a model company that uses a wargame to sell models. So, they don't want to do what would be good for the game and bad for their bottom line, even if it would only be bad for a short time. And people hanging onto their "variety" regardless of the state of the game don't help matters.

Again: I'd rather have a solid game without many options than to have a thousand options attached to a bad game. And I don't even think 40k is all that bad. But I DO think it can be better.

As most so called unique units are little more than weapons options or a rule or two - they can easily be taken as options in the vanilla units.

You just described pretty much every xenos unit as well from aspect warriors to gaunts, but ok say you got your way and all the marines get squatted down too one codex what do you expect to happen then what do you think it will achieve?
A golden age where every xenos race is showered with plastic units? Xenos Codexes to get supplements to replace what you just complained about with the marines?

I have a feeling the reality would disappoint you whatever you are expecting chances are if less marines were made then either less 40k stuff would be produced over all or new armies are produced wholesale like AoS with the odd bone thrown to the existing xenos.

Because if GW were given the choice of updating Orks and making £x or releasing a board game in the same production slot and making £y then as long y is greater than x we get a board game.

I see that Strawgiant is up and burning well again........

Cos marines "Only" have a huge dex representing the current vast;y bloated range (how many Primaris Lts again? is "Squating" them - yeah ok.....

Every non marine faction getting a couple of units per year would be an improvement over what we have at the moment - but no I guess its much better to just keep makig new Marines but only for a very few super special Chapters....

My personal opinion is that every Faction should get reduced to a size that allows GW to create good, balanced, and unique rules for every unit, Stratagem, Wargear option, etc. If that's "squatting" them, then yes. I think they should be "squatted". Instead, GW insists on releasing a whole slew of new rules, units, etc. all at once and just "fixing" them later. Which, obviously, hasn't been working very well as every "fix" just reveals more issues that need "fixing". I'd rather have a moderate release at the beginning with smaller releases afterwards, all of which were well-written and throughly playtested, than to have all my variety and a sub-par ruleset to field all those nice units with.

except you're assuming consolidation would fix this.
it wouldn't
How many fething releases, and I mean independant seperate from the priamris stuff they share with the other marine dexes, have dark angels gotten this edition? they got a single fething character, that's no more then necrons have gotten this edition. Blood Angels are getting Primaris Mephestion, but even if we include that it's a character release and a HQ release. Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc are not sucking up releases for others, they've gotten their codices and... thats about it. even their codices have been pretty minimal, a few new strats etc. nothing partiuclarly exciting. let's use space wolves as an example they have 16 or so unique strats. by comparison, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists etc.. have 16 strats. 6 warlord traits.. same as the supplements etc. So no consolidation wouldn't do anything, and it seems GW is doubling down on making each 1st founding chapter distinct and differant

Klickor wrote:
People do use the sanguinary priest for that +str. Its really strong with +1 to wound. Makes chainswords wound t8 on 4+ and t4 on 2+. He also have ws2+ and 6 attacks that wound t4 on 2s. Giving a unit of DC +1 str is incredible against t4, t5 and t8. DC TH wounds t8 on 2s then.

I wouldnt use a Sanguinary priest now that the invictors are out since I dont have the points for 3 battalions anymore but it is a good HQ that is more used for its str bonus than its heal I would say. I could still see him go or get made in to a strat or something in order to get a supplement. Would rather always be on the same playing field as the other marines no matter if it would make BA slightly weaker in some editions. Being too different in powerlevel between marines bother me more than how it stacks against the rest of the armies. We marines should stick together

LOL no people don't use them, sorry.

 flandarz wrote:
I think the "we got unique units so we need a separate Codex" argument is a bit faulty. Just looking at my own Ork Codex, I found 6 units that are "Kultur locked", meaning they can only be used with a single sub-Faction. Two of these can technically be used in other Kulturs, mind you, but they have a special rule for that and don't benefit from the sub-Faction bonuses when added to them.

Anyway, point is: plenty of Codexes have options that can only be used with certain sub-Factions. Units, Stratagems, and Relics. And they work just fine like this. It's just not a good argument to use "unique units" as a reason for a separate Codex.

There's a difference between one sub locked unit and a character, and 20 pages of unique units and special characters though. 25-30% of the DA/BA/SW units are unique, and that's not including the units that are in the general space marine codex, and not the separate marine ones.




Automatically Appended Next Post:


Yes, mostly because there's more of a difference than just a chainsword. You know it too, which is the sad part.

"Nah Mate just no. Thats not a strawman thats a STRAWGIANT - on fire - with fireworks" is very much descriptive of your argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I use them for their Strength buff. Most of the other blood angels players I know use them for that as well.

Congratulations though, you managed to find one unit out of 20 that is different, in one of the side marine armies.

Any more strawmen you need demolished?


Automatically Appended Next Post:


He also just described most of the difference between eldar and IG as well. A stat or two and equipment. If he was really interested in consolidation, why not make Space marines, and IG. If you want Tau Crisis suites, just use space marine devastators with jump packs? Banshees? Use stormtroopers with powerswords and x special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Well stop building your strawmen that big then, and we won't have to burn them on you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Klickor wrote:
People do use the sanguinary priest for that +str. Its really strong with +1 to wound. Makes chainswords wound t8 on 4+ and t4 on 2+. He also have ws2+ and 6 attacks that wound t4 on 2s. Giving a unit of DC +1 str is incredible against t4, t5 and t8. DC TH wounds t8 on 2s then.

I wouldnt use a Sanguinary priest now that the invictors are out since I dont have the points for 3 battalions anymore but it is a good HQ that is more used for its str bonus than its heal I would say. I could still see him go or get made in to a strat or something in order to get a supplement. Would rather always be on the same playing field as the other marines no matter if it would make BA slightly weaker in some editions. Being too different in powerlevel between marines bother me more than how it stacks against the rest of the armies. We marines should stick together

LOL no people don't use them, sorry.

YOU and people you know and read about don't use them. My FLGS sold out on them twice.

BA have about 25% unique units in the HQ and Elite slot if not including fw relic units. And the baal predator. If the baal predator and the dread variants were to be consolidated it would be even less.

I dont really see why BA should be the only ones with a flamer predator when Salamanderw get their own book and those poor bastards cant have as many meltas or flamers as BA for some weird reason despite being the "fire" chapter.

Everyone could have Librarian dreads and BA would still be the only one with fly due to uniqur psychic power. DC, Furioso and Ironclad should be one melee dread datasheet with DC just being that dread with "death vision of sanguinius" or a chapter tactic that makes ba dreads better.

Now BA have 2 unique Jump Units + HQs, and tycho and corbulo on foot should probably be squatted as well anyway, and perfect size for a supplement. Having the supplement treatment would be so nice right now instead of having to play "Blood Guard" (Bloodangels with RG rules)

The lack of flamer weapons for salamanders is odd. The BA got them because they're thematic for an assault oriented army.

Why should those characters be squatted?
Furthermore, it's only a 'perfect fit' if everyone agrees that the dreadnoughts, and baal preds should be combined/shared.

Having a codex supplement wouldn't change your ravensguard issue.

 Mmmpi wrote:
The lack of flamer weapons for salamanders is odd. The BA got them because they're thematic for an assault oriented army.

Why should those characters be squatted?
Furthermore, it's only a 'perfect fit' if everyone agrees that the dreadnoughts, and baal preds should be combined/shared.

Having a codex supplement wouldn't change your ravensguard issue.

Very old models with very little use. Mostly takes up space and wouldnt be surprised if moved to legends soon. I wouldnt be against new sculpts and new rules for them though.

If I had combat doctrines, new point costs and the new base stratagems + BAs own updated to become a bit cheaper/better and have a chapter tactic useful on vehicles I would be content. Right now my red marines are worse than any othet color of marines other than dark green and bluegray for being red. And red isnt faster for being red anymore either.

Who knows when BA will be fixed now but if we were a supplement it would already have been done and fixed salamanders as well.

For Mono BA to be as powerful as codex marines we would need some serious page count and good rules in a stand alone book. The customisation marines have and the number of traits stacking on traits make so many builds good. Building on that I think would be better for BA/DA to keep up than a new book. A new book has high chances of being both stronger or weaker than the normal marines when most want them on the same level. Will they make the fewer extra rules stronger to compensate for the low number or will they make each as strong as the marine ones but only half of them.

Why? Because they want some extra money from every new codex supplement or chapter specific bits. Thats about it.

BrianDavion wrote:
except you're assuming consolidation would fix this.
it wouldn't
How many fething releases, and I mean independant seperate from the priamris stuff they share with the other marine dexes, have dark angels gotten this edition? they got a single fething character, that's no more then necrons have gotten this edition. Blood Angels are getting Primaris Mephestion, but even if we include that it's a character release and a HQ release. Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc are not sucking up releases for others, they've gotten their codices and... thats about it. even their codices have been pretty minimal, a few new strats etc. nothing partiuclarly exciting. let's use space wolves as an example they have 16 or so unique strats. by comparison, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists etc.. have 16 strats. 6 warlord traits.. same as the supplements etc. So no consolidation wouldn't do anything, and it seems GW is doubling down on making each 1st founding chapter distinct and differant

Really lets just ignore all the stuff that they get thats shared? Feth no - its stuff they get which non Marine armies don;t get same as all those lovely new FW models that have 40k stats.

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except you're assuming consolidation would fix this.
it wouldn't
How many fething releases, and I mean independant seperate from the priamris stuff they share with the other marine dexes, have dark angels gotten this edition? they got a single fething character, that's no more then necrons have gotten this edition. Blood Angels are getting Primaris Mephestion, but even if we include that it's a character release and a HQ release. Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc are not sucking up releases for others, they've gotten their codices and... thats about it. even their codices have been pretty minimal, a few new strats etc. nothing partiuclarly exciting. let's use space wolves as an example they have 16 or so unique strats. by comparison, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists etc.. have 16 strats. 6 warlord traits.. same as the supplements etc. So no consolidation wouldn't do anything, and it seems GW is doubling down on making each 1st founding chapter distinct and differant

Really lets just ignore all the stuff that they get thats shared? Feth no - its stuff they get which non Marine armies don;t get same as all those lovely new FW models that have 40k stats.

Exactly this. I can't believe someone has tried to claim that Dark Angels have had the same number of releases as Necrons this edition. This must be some meta joke right? Marines have had 30+ releases, 8 or so of them are unique, chapter specific characters.

The 'but muh unique snowflake units bru' argument is ridiculous too. Longfangs are literally devastator squads with beards. Death company were initially just assault marines with a different paint job. Scouts as elites? Wow. Super specific dread? Make it a weapon option tied to specific sub factions.

The marine bloat is starting to (yet again) kill the game.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except you're assuming consolidation would fix this.
it wouldn't
How many fething releases, and I mean independant seperate from the priamris stuff they share with the other marine dexes, have dark angels gotten this edition? they got a single fething character, that's no more then necrons have gotten this edition. Blood Angels are getting Primaris Mephestion, but even if we include that it's a character release and a HQ release. Blood Angels, Dark Angels etc are not sucking up releases for others, they've gotten their codices and... thats about it. even their codices have been pretty minimal, a few new strats etc. nothing partiuclarly exciting. let's use space wolves as an example they have 16 or so unique strats. by comparison, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists etc.. have 16 strats. 6 warlord traits.. same as the supplements etc. So no consolidation wouldn't do anything, and it seems GW is doubling down on making each 1st founding chapter distinct and differant

Really lets just ignore all the stuff that they get thats shared? Feth no - its stuff they get which non Marine armies don;t get same as all those lovely new FW models that have 40k stats.

Exactly this. I can't believe someone has tried to claim that Dark Angels have had the same number of releases as Necrons this edition. This must be some meta joke right? Marines have had 30+ releases, 8 or so of them are unique, chapter specific characters.

The 'but muh unique snowflake units bru' argument is ridiculous too. Longfangs are literally devastator squads with beards. Death company were initially just assault marines with a different paint job. Scouts as elites? Wow. Super specific dread? Make it a weapon option tied to specific sub factions.

The marine bloat is starting to (yet again) kill the game.

what I am saying is that the vast majority of marine releases are shared

between that and chapter supplements, they're not getting much new. Ergo, consolidation wouldn't make a fething differance. they're already halfway there, and lo and behold, it hasn't suddenly changed the release schedule, it hasn't magicly allowed GW to release more Orks etc. I repeat consolidation would not make a single fething differance THAT is my point. not that DAs, BAs etc haven't gotten releases, but that they're not exactly taking up substantially more production resources then they would if you folded them into codex space marines and released a supplement.

All Marines should be supplements to a core book.

CapRichard wrote:
All Marines should be supplements to a core book.

the problem is that when a chapter has so many modifications to core units, and so many of their own units, they might as well just got a stand alone codex. space wolves for example would be CONSTANTLY flipping between two books for every one of their units. If the market'll support a stand alone space wolves codex, they might as well get a stand alone codex.

@BrianDavion So you honestly think that if GW didn't spend all their time writing and releasing a literal books' worth of content for each snowflake marine chapter there wouldn't be more time for them to spend writing books other factions? Rubbish.

You reckon that they wouldn't have any more time to release characters for other factions if they didn't spend 90% of their time working on 'Blue Psyker Bro' for UM, 'Hawks McGee' for WS, 'Definitely not futuristic Solid Snake' for RG, 'ExTerminate' for IH, 'Jawwy McChinnerson' of the Imperial Fists or 'Burny Hammerhead' of Salamanders and now 'Futuristic Vampire Lestat' for BA? That's 7 new character models right there that other factions could have used. But no. Other factions can't have nice things.

My suggestion would be to have, oh I don't know, all factions on an even footing with the same amount of books for all of them, aka no supplements and a consolidated codex for Marines.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
@BrianDavion So you honestly think that if GW didn't spend all their time writing and releasing a literal books' worth of content for each snowflake marine chapter there wouldn't be more time for them to spend writing books other factions? Rubbish.

You reckon that they wouldn't have any more time to release characters for other factions if they didn't spend 90% of their time working on 'Blue Psyker Bro' for UM, 'Hawks McGee' for WS, 'Definitely not futuristic Solid Snake' for RG, 'ExTerminate' for IH, 'Jawwy McChinnerson' of the Imperial Fists or 'Burny Hammerhead' of Salamanders and now 'Futuristic Vampire Lestat' for BA? That's 7 new character models right there that other factions could have used. But no. Other factions can't have nice things.

My suggestion would be to have, oh I don't know, all factions on an even footing with the same amount of books for all of them, aka no supplements and a consolidated codex for Marines.

Removed - BrookM

I repeat, "if they made space wolves, dark angels and blood angels supplements it would not make a fething differance" Because you're right, GW did put a lot of work into those minis, it's about on par with what they've put into BA, DA etc. so the "make them supplements and GW'll use less resources on them!" arguement falls flat, because, as you yourself noted, the supplements get the same amount of resources as BA DA etc.


yet again, Imperial Fists (just to use an example) has 16 unique stratigiums, received a new HQ character, new warlord traits yadda yadda ya, this is the same level of support that the DARK ANGELS have gotten this edition so far.
Whatever your views on it IMHO this isn't going to change (no matter how much people whine on dakkadakka). clearly marine subfactions are popular money makers, we can proably credit the Horus Heresy's sucess for this as it's helped flesh out each of the legions as unique entities with their own culture.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That doesn't make GW correct. GW, in fact, says many things that end up being incorrect.

What's your point at that point? Just listen and be a good customer?

GW makes supplement codexes, and has done for 20 years because people want them.

Thankfully most people disagree with you and we have variety in the game.

We have variety for Marines - FA for anyone else - but apparently thats what you want....

This is idiotic, and standard for Dakka. How could you possibly extrapolate that I want nothing else for anyone else?

I collect IG and Necrons, and would love supplements to add more flavour to either.

But look, you have your hill to die on, we'll all watch from the sidelines wondering what the hell you're arguing for.

Which is why, for me, they *should* get rolled into the same Codex.

As Brian has pointed out, Imperial Fists got just as much as the Dark Angels through their supplement, and also claimed (accurately) that the vast majority of Marine releases are shared, So why not fold them all in together?

I'm not advocating removing of flavour or units, but simply making the core Space Marine book just that - the core of all Space Marines*. Want to have some more flavour? That's great, the supplement will provide that for you, just like it does for all the other supplement Chapters. I mean, how many special units does the Ultramarines supplement have? 10, 11? Compare that to DA/BA/SW, and they're not too far apart. Open up stratagems and Chapter Tactics to "upgrade" standard units to their flavourful counterparts, and for some of the more superficial differences (Long Fangs really aren't too different from a Devastator Squad, aside from their background fluff, Grey Hunters aren't so different from Tactical Marines, and regular Deathwing Terminators aren't really filling roles that normal Terminators weren't) just rename them in their supplements with some blurb about how in XYZ Chapter, they're actually called ABC and how they're special because *insert fluff here*.

It's not about getting rid of stuff, it's just making it open to everyone, and ensuring all SM are working from the same baseline. It worked well enough for 30k, and the Legion differences are all the more stark than they are from 40k Chapters.

As Brian has pointed out, Imperial Fists got just as much as the Dark Angels through their supplement, and also claimed (accurately) that the vast majority of Marine releases are shared, So why not fold them all in together?

Imperial Fists got as much as the DA ? You talking about the 3rd ed. DA supplement ? Because even then the DA had way more diversity than the IF does in 8th ed.

This topic has been dug out how many time now ? The only explanation I see for this is that some people have some frustration in regards to the fact that some SM chapter got more love than others.