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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Compare that to DA/BA/SW, and they're not too far apart. Open up stratagems and Chapter Tactics to "upgrade" standard units to their flavourful counterparts, and for some of the more superficial differences (Long Fangs really aren't too different from a Devastator Squad, aside from their background fluff, Grey Hunters aren't so different from Tactical Marines, and regular Deathwing Terminators aren't really filling roles that normal Terminators weren't) just rename them in their supplements with some blurb about how in XYZ Chapter, they're actually called ABC and how they're special because *insert fluff here*.

Well it would force people to buy one extra book, that is one reason enough for people not to want it. Also if we go by the logic of GH being similar to tacticals, then all aspect warriors, all orcs should be a single unit option too.

Part of the problem here is that anyone dares suggest that (as is the case) most "unique" units in the bloated Marine dexes are (In game) are basically slight variations on existing units - weapon option/a minor rule etc you get this complete BS strawgiant. In the lore - yes they are different culturally but so are the other 996 Marine Chapters that are out there.

why not make Space marines, and IG. If you want Tau Crisis suites, just use space marine devastators with jump packs? Banshees? Use stormtroopers with powerswords and x special rules.

Somehow that allowing (for example) other Marine tac squads to take chainswords or allowing the mixing of weapons in Terminator Squads is tableflipping the entire game, destroying the lore ( whats not been gak upon by recent dexes) and might as well have a single unit with options in the game.

WhiteDog wrote:

As Brian has pointed out, Imperial Fists got just as much as the Dark Angels through their supplement, and also claimed (accurately) that the vast majority of Marine releases are shared, So why not fold them all in together?

Imperial Fists got as much as the DA ? You talking about the 3rd ed. DA supplement ? Because even then the DA had way more diversity than the IF does in 8th ed.

This topic has been dug out how many time now ? The only explanation I see for this is that some people have some frustration in regards to the fact that some SM chapter got more love than others.

I meant in terms of stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers, etc etc.

It's not about "wah, they got more than me!", it's "is there really that much mechanical difference, and surely other first founding Chapters have just as much 'diversity' as the others?" Compare the Legions - they all use the same core book, the same core units. Are you telling me that the Iron Hands are just like the Raven Guard though? No, because their flavour and unique features, despite being in the same book, are actually distinct from eachother. The Dark Angels Legion don't even have a dedicated Deathwing unit, but that doesn't mean you can't have your Terminators called Deathwing Terminators and your Chapter Tactics gives <Terminator> units certain rules. That could easily just be covered in their Chapter Tactics which could just be in the main book, like everyone else.

With how much stuff could be put in these supplements, and how many units are shared, why not fold them together?

Karol wrote:Well it would force people to buy one extra book, that is one reason enough for people not to want it.

It wouldn't *force* anyone at all. You don't need the Ultramarines supplement to play Ultramarines, you can just use the Chapter Tactics printed in the regular Codex. Now, if you want special characters, and extra rules, and extra flavour? Yes, but that's hardly a DA/BA/SW problem, that's an "I want to play a first founder with unique extra rules" problem.

I'm sure you don't mean it to sound like this, so I'm not going to assume you meant it, but it wouldn't exactly be hard to extrapolate that to read: "DA/BA/SW get their core units AND flavour in one book, but UM/IH/IF/RG/S/WS all have to pay even more for their unique flavour, how dare you expect DA/BA/SW to do the same!"

Also if we go by the logic of GH being similar to tacticals, then all aspect warriors, all orcs should be a single unit option too.

There's a MASSIVE difference between a literal change of Chapter Tactic and the entire Ork race. Please, name for me the mechanical differences between Grey Hunters and Tactical Marines - not including their Chapter Tactic.
All I can see is:
- Access to chainswords, which I think plenty of Chapters should have access to, Black Templars and suchlike. Either tie it to the Chapter Tactic, or just make it universal.
- Wolf Standard, again, why is this not a thing in other Chapters, again, like Black Templars. Same as above, either tie it to the Chapter Tactic, or universal.
- Potential for 2 special weapons, no option for heavy, but again, *why is this a SW specific thing*.
- Access to a Terminator armoured Sergeant, like the Iron Hands have in lore? Not unique then, really.

None of that really tells me that they have a functionally major difference to Tactical Marines that other Chapters don't/shouldn't also possess.

The kicker for me is that, in Kill Team, there is no mechanical difference between a Grey Hunter and a Tactical Marine aside from their Chapter Tactic, because it is essentially the same unit, with the same battlefield role. Which, imo, is how it should be handled - nothing's stopping anyone from calling their Space Wolf Tactical Squads "Grey Hunters", much like how no-one is demanding a whole separate unit for Raven Guard Captains (who function just like anyone else's Captains) just because they're called Shadow-Captains instead.

It's not like I'm comparing Terminators to Assault Marines, because they clearly have different roles on the battlefield, but Blood Claws and Assault Marines? Wolf Guard and Terminators? It's just a new name and a reskin. That's not to say get rid of the background, I wouldn't ever advocate for that, but on the battlefield, they operate in exactly the same spheres to the point where they are functionally the same.

All I can see is:
- Access to chainswords, which I think plenty of Chapters should have access to, Black Templars and suchlike. Either tie it to the Chapter Tactic, or just make it universal.
- Wolf Standard, again, why is this not a thing in other Chapters, again, like Black Templars. Same as above, either tie it to the Chapter Tactic, or universal.
- Potential for 2 special weapons, no option for heavy, but again, *why is this a SW specific thing*.
- Access to a Terminator armoured Sergeant, like the Iron Hands have in lore? Not unique then, really.

Funny fact: all those things were already available to Codex Marines Tactical Squads in the past (and the difference to Grey Hunters were Space Wolves Special Rules that were removed as it was too complicated to have specific rules for different kind of Space Marines)

The main reason why they cannot have this now is a simple one, no model no rules.

So the things that made Grey Hunters really unique were removed long ago and therefore they need to keep the special options to be different


I don't really care what will happen, as long as GW finally decide what it will be and stick to it.
First 8th was the Edition about Mini-Codex, everything will get its own Book, no matter if it makes sense or not.

But now we are back at Codex+Supplement, so the next releases should follow that scheme all Marines, as all Chaos Forces should be a Supplement

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

As Brian has pointed out, Imperial Fists got just as much as the Dark Angels through their supplement, and also claimed (accurately) that the vast majority of Marine releases are shared, So why not fold them all in together?

Imperial Fists got as much as the DA ? You talking about the 3rd ed. DA supplement ? Because even then the DA had way more diversity than the IF does in 8th ed.

This topic has been dug out how many time now ? The only explanation I see for this is that some people have some frustration in regards to the fact that some SM chapter got more love than others.

I meant in terms of stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers, etc etc.

Like all factions in the game they have a specific discipline with 6 spells, 6 warlords traits and something like two to four pages of stratagem. Let's make a unique book for every faction and supplements for everybody then ...

WhiteDog wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

As Brian has pointed out, Imperial Fists got just as much as the Dark Angels through their supplement, and also claimed (accurately) that the vast majority of Marine releases are shared, So why not fold them all in together?

Imperial Fists got as much as the DA ? You talking about the 3rd ed. DA supplement ? Because even then the DA had way more diversity than the IF does in 8th ed.

This topic has been dug out how many time now ? The only explanation I see for this is that some people have some frustration in regards to the fact that some SM chapter got more love than others.

I meant in terms of stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers, etc etc.

Like all factions in the game they have a specific discipline with 6 spells, 6 warlords traits and something like two to four pages of stratagem. Let's make a unique book for every faction and supplements for everybody then ...

I mean, I wouldn't mind every subfaction getting a supplements with those. Let's give Dal'yth and the Evil Sunz supplements, let's see what Metalica and Mordian do that's unique

But, that aside, I feel you're missing my distinction. Yes, I know that "everyone" gets a variety of warlord traits, stratagems, etc etc, but the Space Marine *supplements* give just as much as a full Codex does! Therefore, if supplements are essentially giving about as much as Codexes in terms of flavour and variety, why do the DA/BA/SW need full codexes when supplements would suffice? Imperial Fists, a subfaction of the larger Space Marine core, getting as many stratagems, relics, and suchlike as some full Codexes (like what you describe) is functionally identical to Dark Angels, a subfaction of the larger Space Marine core (because they do all share the same core units) getting the same amount of stratagems, relics, and suchlike.

Basically, what's the difference between DA getting their personal relics, stratagems, warlord traits, and unique units in a supplement, and DA getting their personal relics, stratagems, warlord traits and unique units in a codex?

Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

Eh, not all the time. A Raven Guard Tactical Marine has a different flavour than a White Scars Tactical Marine, even though they're only painted differently. On rules alone, we can see the Raven Guard are stealthy, and are fond of keeping a distance between their opponents and themselves, whereas White Scars like to get into close combat quickly, and are well trained with Bikes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

No, flavor comes from background. Neither rules nor lumps of plastic have any relevance.

 kodos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

This is true. Essentially, I want all the First Founding Chapters to be on the same playing field. As 30k shows us, the Chapters/Legions are far more distinct than "Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and everyone else". Either they all get supplements, or they all don't. I'd personally prefer supplements, but I wouldn't want a situation where one faction gets a full Codex when it could have just been a supplement like everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

No, flavor comes from background. Neither rules nor lumps of plastic have any relevance.

This is more accurate, but I still feel that there is a place in models and rules to represent this background flavour.

Am I saying there should be a whole seperate Codex to showcase it? Not personally, because I don't see what a Codex would add that a supplement wouldn't.

 kodos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

We actually only need two:
1. Loyalist Scum + a couple of pages to handle Renegades
2. Legions proper

I've already shown how to do the former many times.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

We actually only need two:
1. Loyalist Scum + a couple of pages to handle Renegades
2. Legions proper

I've already shown how to do the former many times.

To what end? Why are we talking about removing content? You can show how to do it all you want, but until there's an actual valid reason to do it other than "I don't collect those armies so I don't want them to have things", there's no gain to be had by doing it.

 Sentineil wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

We actually only need two:
1. Loyalist Scum + a couple of pages to handle Renegades
2. Legions proper

I've already shown how to do the former many times.

To what end? Why are we talking about removing content? You can show how to do it all you want, but until there's an actual valid reason to do it other than "I don't collect those armies so I don't want them to have things", there's no gain to be had by doing it.

I'm talking about removing filler, not content. Remember, people here can pretend they were using the S+1 bonus for the Sanguine Priest, but the truth of the matter is that they weren't. You keep actual unique stuff and share units/upgrades that should've been shared from the get-go (because two Chapters and ALL their successors don't have and never had Thunderfire Cannons? LOL that's stupid sorry) and we would be good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

We actually only need two:
1. Loyalist Scum + a couple of pages to handle Renegades
2. Legions proper

I've already shown how to do the former many times.

To what end? Why are we talking about removing content? You can show how to do it all you want, but until there's an actual valid reason to do it other than "I don't collect those armies so I don't want them to have things", there's no gain to be had by doing it.

I'm talking about removing filler, not content. Remember, people here can pretend they were using the S+1 bonus for the Sanguine Priest, but the truth of the matter is that they weren't. You keep actual unique stuff and share units/upgrades that should've been shared from the get-go (because two Chapters and ALL their successors don't have and never had Thunderfire Cannons? LOL that's stupid sorry) and we would be good.

People use the sanguinary priest for its +str ability if not we could just take a LT or something cheaper or at least skip the JP. We have no good targets for the heal so why else would we take the damn model? You are wrong on this! But that doesnt mean we couldnt make changes to it if its for the sake of consolidating the marine chapters and make a supplement. 2 different things.

Last 5 2000pts games I played I used the Sanguinary Priest to buff my DC, or well in 4 games since in one the DC got killed before I had the chance to buff them.

Furioso dreads,(its just a tiny variation of the Iron Clad) baal predator and larger access to flamers and melta though are something there would be no drawback in making available to everyone.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

Eh, not all the time. A Raven Guard Tactical Marine has a different flavour than a White Scars Tactical Marine, even though they're only painted differently. On rules alone, we can see the Raven Guard are stealthy, and are fond of keeping a distance between their opponents and themselves, whereas White Scars like to get into close combat quickly, and are well trained with Bikes.

To my mind, this is the sort of thing that really should come more from the owning player's tactics or maybe a couple of stratagems, rather than expressed as permanent army-wide bonuses or entire faction sub-books, particularly when both are ostensibly codex adherent chapters.

A Tac Marine is a Tac Marine (and is by definition the iconic generalist unit), be it from the Raven Guard, White Scars, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, etc. They have some different preferences in tactics, but fundamentally have identical equipment, 95% similar training, are drawing from the same broad set of tatics/strategies/operational procedures, and have the same general role in the lore and game, and will both operate the way the others do when the situation calls for it (White Scars aren't going to be riding around on bikes when clearing Orks from a mountain stronghold or dense forest, and Raven Guard aren't going to be playing stealthy ninjas in a running desert tank battle or a high tech urban assault against the Tau Empire for example).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

As Brian has pointed out, Imperial Fists got just as much as the Dark Angels through their supplement, and also claimed (accurately) that the vast majority of Marine releases are shared, So why not fold them all in together?

Imperial Fists got as much as the DA ? You talking about the 3rd ed. DA supplement ? Because even then the DA had way more diversity than the IF does in 8th ed.

This topic has been dug out how many time now ? The only explanation I see for this is that some people have some frustration in regards to the fact that some SM chapter got more love than others.

I meant in terms of stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers, etc etc.

Like all factions in the game they have a specific discipline with 6 spells, 6 warlords traits and something like two to four pages of stratagem. Let's make a unique book for every faction and supplements for everybody then ...

I mean, I wouldn't mind every subfaction getting a supplements with those. Let's give Dal'yth and the Evil Sunz supplements, let's see what Metalica and Mordian do that's unique

But, that aside, I feel you're missing my distinction. Yes, I know that "everyone" gets a variety of warlord traits, stratagems, etc etc, but the Space Marine *supplements* give just as much as a full Codex does! Therefore, if supplements are essentially giving about as much as Codexes in terms of flavour and variety, why do the DA/BA/SW need full codexes when supplements would suffice? Imperial Fists, a subfaction of the larger Space Marine core, getting as many stratagems, relics, and suchlike as some full Codexes (like what you describe) is functionally identical to Dark Angels, a subfaction of the larger Space Marine core (because they do all share the same core units) getting the same amount of stratagems, relics, and suchlike.

Basically, what's the difference between DA getting their personal relics, stratagems, warlord traits, and unique units in a supplement, and DA getting their personal relics, stratagems, warlord traits and unique units in a codex?

As Karol noted, by being stand alone it means they only need 1 book. I have no problem with DAs BAs etc getting a stand alone codex as the more popular specialist marine armies. it saves them money. Also it ensures their unique and differant equipment etc remains unique and differant. For blood angels, dark angels etc players there is, simply put, not many likely upsides to being given supplements instead of their own codex. for non-marine players there's no upside as it's not going to magicly preserve resources, in fact there are likely downsides, if they where supplements ala Imperial Fists, GW woulkd feel obliged to produce BA, SW etc supplements now, as opposed to giving it a bit. inevitably it would have lead to an even longer marine release schedule.

I'd like a supplement with appropriate changes. DA has quite a few units others do not. So adding deathwing entries and removing standard Terminator entries etc. What I really want is a unique formation so I can field my fluffy Dreadwing (Angels Of Vengeance Deathwing) and not be at a substantial disadvantage. Same for ravenwing. Add in some useful starts and I am good to go.

Vaktathi wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

Eh, not all the time. A Raven Guard Tactical Marine has a different flavour than a White Scars Tactical Marine, even though they're only painted differently. On rules alone, we can see the Raven Guard are stealthy, and are fond of keeping a distance between their opponents and themselves, whereas White Scars like to get into close combat quickly, and are well trained with Bikes.

To my mind, this is the sort of thing that really should come more from the owning player's tactics or maybe a couple of stratagems, rather than expressed as permanent army-wide bonuses or entire faction sub-books, particularly when both are ostensibly codex adherent chapters.

A Tac Marine is a Tac Marine (and is by definition the iconic generalist unit), be it from the Raven Guard, White Scars, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, etc. They have some different preferences in tactics, but fundamentally have identical equipment, 95% similar training, are drawing from the same broad set of tatics/strategies/operational procedures, and have the same general role in the lore and game, and will both operate the way the others do when the situation calls for it (White Scars aren't going to be riding around on bikes when clearing Orks from a mountain stronghold or dense forest, and Raven Guard aren't going to be playing stealthy ninjas in a running desert tank battle or a high tech urban assault against the Tau Empire for example).

Nah, that's a fair point. It's good to remember that, as much as the Raven Guard and White Scars *are* different, they are both Codex Chapters, and both are still sensible - as you say, you still have Raven Guard Terminators and White Scars Assault Marines and so on, so forth. In this regard, it's actually pretty strange for Iron Hands/Black Templars and Blood Angels/Dark Angels respectively, because the former are non-Codex adherent (or deviate significantly from it), and the latter are actually pretty Codex adherent (Blood Angels especially, and Dark Angels just move what would normally be 6th/7th company Fast Attack assets to their 2nd Company, and assign their first two companies a special significance - even though all Chapters tend to do such a thing, albeit not with a Super Important Secret).

Even the Space Wolves, aside from their naming structure and progression differences, generally still fit the same sort of troop dispositions that Codex adherent Chapters do, with their exception being embedded Terminators in certain squads, which Iron Hands and *maybe* Black Templars also do in lore.

Essentially, in terms of typical fighting style, there's as much difference between Blood Angels and Raven Guard as there is between Raven Guard and Iron Hands, if not less.

BrianDavion wrote:As Karol noted, by being stand alone it means they only need 1 book. I have no problem with DAs BAs etc getting a stand alone codex as the more popular specialist marine armies. it saves them money. Also it ensures their unique and differant equipment etc remains unique and differant. For blood angels, dark angels etc players there is, simply put, not many likely upsides to being given supplements instead of their own codex. for non-marine players there's no upside as it's not going to magicly preserve resources, in fact there are likely downsides, if they where supplements ala Imperial Fists, GW woulkd feel obliged to produce BA, SW etc supplements now, as opposed to giving it a bit. inevitably it would have lead to an even longer marine release schedule.

That kind of sucks for all the other Space Marine players who need to fork out extra money if they want to have their unique and different equipment (which, in all fairness, should be just as unique and distinct from eachothers as the DA/BA/SW are).

Why do those Chapters get special significance, when all of their unique and special stuff could, as you put it, also be added to a supplement? It won't change resource management (well, I suppose it would be easier on paper and suchlike, because you wouldn't need to reprint all the same entries into the DA/BA/SW books that are in the base Codex), because it's still prioritising Space Marines compared to everything else (which is another matter entirely). I just don't personally see why BA/DA/SW should be held to a different standard to similarly weighty and unique Chapters - sure, you might need to pay a little extra for your flavourful units, but what about all the other Chapters who already have to do that? Why should an Ultramarines player who wants to use all the cool Ultramarines specific units have to suck it up and get a supplement, but a Dark Angels player shouldn't? (I wish to stress, I also very much advocate that you don't need fancy rules and specific units to have a fluffy list for a flavourful Chapter, and if you want to play Ultramarines, you don't *need* to have the supplement).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain collius wrote:
I'd like a supplement with appropriate changes. DA has quite a few units others do not. So adding deathwing entries and removing standard Terminator entries etc. What I really want is a unique formation so I can field my fluffy Dreadwing (Angels Of Vengeance Deathwing) and not be at a substantial disadvantage. Same for ravenwing. Add in some useful starts and I am good to go.

You mention adding Deathwing, but removing standard Termies, but realistically, what is the difference, besides the name change? Specifically for just regular Deathwing Terminators, not the Knights.

In all fairness, you *can* field a fluffy Dreadwing, you just miss out on some command points. Although I wouldn't be adverse to some kind of "if a Vanguard Detachment contains only units with the Deathwing keyword, they instead generate 5 CP" or something like that.

That kind of sucks for all the other Space Marine players who need to fork out extra money if they want to have their unique and different equipment (which, in all fairness, should be just as unique and distinct from eachothers as the DA/BA/SW are).

Why do those Chapters get special significance, when all of their unique and special stuff could, as you put it, also be added to a supplement? It won't change resource management (well, I suppose it would be easier on paper and suchlike, because you wouldn't need to reprint all the same entries into the DA/BA/SW books that are in the base Codex), because it's still prioritising Space Marines compared to everything else (which is another matter entirely). I just don't personally see why BA/DA/SW should be held to a different standard to similarly weighty and unique Chapters - sure, you might need to pay a little extra for your flavourful units, but what about all the other Chapters who already have to do that? Why should an Ultramarines player who wants to use all the cool Ultramarines specific units have to suck it up and get a supplement, but a Dark Angels player shouldn't? (I wish to stress, I also very much advocate that you don't need fancy rules and specific units to have a fluffy list for a flavourful Chapter, and if you want to play Ultramarines, you don't *need* to have the supplement).

First up I wanna note that my army is vanilla space Marines. I own codex space marines, all supplements (I run the Ultramarines sucessors rules and bought the other ones as much for the lore as anything else) and own codex space wolves. I always belive it's best to identify your biases coming in. those chapters get special signfcigance because they've always had a codex, I'm fine with Space Wolves not having to buy two books for their full rules load. GW could certainly fold these books in but, why bother? it'd not benifit anyone.

(I wish to stress, I also very much advocate that you don't need fancy rules and specific units to have a fluffy list for a flavourful Chapter, and if you want to play Ultramarines, you don't *need* to have the supplement).

that is because ultramarines are as basic space marine as it gets. It would be kind of a hard to build and play a Raven Wing army, with their special units and rules removed.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
I'd like a supplement with appropriate changes. DA has quite a few units others do not. So adding deathwing entries and removing standard Terminator entries etc. What I really want is a unique formation so I can field my fluffy Dreadwing (Angels Of Vengeance Deathwing) and not be at a substantial disadvantage. Same for ravenwing. Add in some useful starts and I am good to go.

You mention adding Deathwing, but removing standard Termies, but realistically, what is the difference, besides the name change? Specifically for just regular Deathwing Terminators, not the Knights.

In all fairness, you *can* field a fluffy Dreadwing, you just miss out on some command points. Although I wouldn't be adverse to some kind of "if a Vanguard Detachment contains only units with the Deathwing keyword, they instead generate 5 CP" or something like that.

Agreed on the general point the army is fieldable as of now but it is a very poor choice due to lack of command points and few strats that really work with them. So yeah and I use it that way I'm just like most players I'd like them to be better

As for Deathwing being the same I disagree they are separate units in the base codex and our are not a simple entry is a minor thing Especially when there are several unique DA units that have models and Need support from a financial point of view. Personally in 6th when they introduced the Deathwing Box I would have intentionally increased their divergence in tech.

BrianDavion wrote:First up I wanna note that my army is vanilla space Marines. I own codex space marines, all supplements (I run the Ultramarines sucessors rules and bought the other ones as much for the lore as anything else) and own codex space wolves. I always belive it's best to identify your biases coming in. those chapters get special signfcigance because they've always had a codex, I'm fine with Space Wolves not having to buy two books for their full rules load. GW could certainly fold these books in but, why bother? it'd not benifit anyone.

Apologies if it sounded like I was accusing you of bias, but I appreciate the note. For me, I've always been standard Codex Space Marines, Ultramarines and a custom homebrew, and I've only used the supplement to get the rules for unique Ultramarine units that I already had (plus the lore and company breakdowns, really liked that part of the supplement!)

As far as special significance, I think that's what I have an issue with, because realistically, shouldn't all the first founders be significant? One only needs to look at the Legion lists for 30k, and each Legion feels special, feels significant, because they all come from the same base, but all built off of it together. I absolutely think that first founders (and their notable successors) should be special to a degree, but they're *all* special, not just three of them.

For me, I would quite like all Space Marine factions (not Deathwatch or Grey Knights) to be folded into the general "Codex Space Marines", since it unifies their core pool of units, and benefits people who wish to collect more than one "special" Chapter. Say if you had someone who wanted to play Ultramarines and Space Wolves: under the current system, they would need to buy the Dark Angels *Codex*, even if they didn't want to use any fancy stuff, core Marine Codex, and the Ultramarines supplement (if they specifically wanted the fancy Ultramarine stuff). Under mine, they'd need the core Marine Codex, and the Ultramarines and Dark Angel supplements (which are completely optional on if they want the fancy flavourful stuff). The monetary cost is lower, the stats more unified, less need for specific FAQs, and feels like each of the big famous first founders are actually all important. The only situation where mine sucks is for for the people who only want BA/DA/SW, who now need to buy a second (less expensive) book - but is that any different to those who want to play the First Founder they've always played?

Karol wrote:

(I wish to stress, I also very much advocate that you don't need fancy rules and specific units to have a fluffy list for a flavourful Chapter, and if you want to play Ultramarines, you don't *need* to have the supplement).

that is because ultramarines are as basic space marine as it gets. It would be kind of a hard to build and play a Raven Wing army, with their special units and rules removed.

Firstly, I wish to refute the claim that Ultramarines are just basic. Their culture as a Legion and Chapter is fleshed out far better in 30k, but it's still there for 40k fans too.

Secondly, I never claimed to want to remove special units that had no direct analogue. For example, Ravenwing Bikers could easily be filled in as Company Veterans on Bikes or even standard Bikers, but things like the Land Speeder Vengeance would have a unique datasheet for the Dark Angels. Any special Ravenwing rules could be covered by something in the supplement stating "XYZ units gain the <Ravenwing> keyword in a <Dark Angels> detachment", and assign rules to that keyword, or even "an Outrider Detachment comprised only of <Ravenwing> units gains an extra 5 Command Points" to encourage taking full Wings.

Basically, I'm not getting rid of things. I'm taking existing units, modifying them into the "special" versions where necessary, and saving truly unique things (like Death Company, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Deathwing Knights) to be in the supplement.

captain collius wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
I'd like a supplement with appropriate changes. DA has quite a few units others do not. So adding deathwing entries and removing standard Terminator entries etc. What I really want is a unique formation so I can field my fluffy Dreadwing (Angels Of Vengeance Deathwing) and not be at a substantial disadvantage. Same for ravenwing. Add in some useful starts and I am good to go.

You mention adding Deathwing, but removing standard Termies, but realistically, what is the difference, besides the name change? Specifically for just regular Deathwing Terminators, not the Knights.

In all fairness, you *can* field a fluffy Dreadwing, you just miss out on some command points. Although I wouldn't be adverse to some kind of "if a Vanguard Detachment contains only units with the Deathwing keyword, they instead generate 5 CP" or something like that.

Agreed on the general point the army is fieldable as of now but it is a very poor choice due to lack of command points and few strats that really work with them. So yeah and I use it that way I'm just like most players I'd like them to be better

Agreed, it kills me inside that while we've probably got the most freedom on paper to do whatever we like with our armies (I mean, I can make a full Devastator Company now without pesky Tacticals and Scouts!), people still feel restricted by the lack of Command Points. There should be more things for all factions that reward specific styles of build.

Took only Raptors and Warp Talons in your Outrider detachment? Great, extra CP!
All Devastator 9th Company Spearhead detachment? You got it!
Took a bunch of Knights in one detachment! That's- already a thing...

As for Deathwing being the same I disagree they are separate units in the base codex and our are not a simple entry is a minor thing Especially when there are several unique DA units that have models and Need support from a financial point of view. Personally in 6th when they introduced the Deathwing Box I would have intentionally increased their divergence in tech.

Perhaps, but if I were in charge of doing the Deathwing, I wouldn't have expanded their tech use, but would instead have done more with formations and stacking buffs rewarding players for playing in a certain way with the Deathwing - ie, keeping them away from standard Greenwing and buffs to fighting Fallen units.

For me, all the First Founders should have one or two unique units (that their successors can use too!): Firedrakes or suchlike for Salamanders, Dark Furies or Mor Deythan for Raven Guard, Phalanx Warders for Imperial Fists, Tyrannic War Vets or Invictarii for Ultramarines, Medusan Immortals or Gorgons for Iron Hands, Golden Keshig for White Scars, or along those lines. Then, the flavour around how they're fielded and how the Chapter fights is expanded by use of stratagems and passive buffs, rather than through forcibly creating new units to justify there being so much of a gap.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

captain collius wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
I'd like a supplement with appropriate changes. DA has quite a few units others do not. So adding deathwing entries and removing standard Terminator entries etc. What I really want is a unique formation so I can field my fluffy Dreadwing (Angels Of Vengeance Deathwing) and not be at a substantial disadvantage. Same for ravenwing. Add in some useful starts and I am good to go.

You mention adding Deathwing, but removing standard Termies, but realistically, what is the difference, besides the name change? Specifically for just regular Deathwing Terminators, not the Knights.

In all fairness, you *can* field a fluffy Dreadwing, you just miss out on some command points. Although I wouldn't be adverse to some kind of "if a Vanguard Detachment contains only units with the Deathwing keyword, they instead generate 5 CP" or something like that.

Agreed on the general point the army is fieldable as of now but it is a very poor choice due to lack of command points and few strats that really work with them. So yeah and I use it that way I'm just like most players I'd like them to be better

Agreed, it kills me inside that while we've probably got the most freedom on paper to do whatever we like with our armies (I mean, I can make a full Devastator Company now without pesky Tacticals and Scouts!), people still feel restricted by the lack of Command Points. There should be more things for all factions that reward specific styles of build.

Took only Raptors and Warp Talons in your Outrider detachment? Great, extra CP!
All Devastator 9th Company Spearhead detachment? You got it!
Took a bunch of Knights in one detachment! That's- already a thing...

As for Deathwing being the same I disagree they are separate units in the base codex and our are not a simple entry is a minor thing Especially when there are several unique DA units that have models and Need support from a financial point of view. Personally in 6th when they introduced the Deathwing Box I would have intentionally increased their divergence in tech.

Perhaps, but if I were in charge of doing the Deathwing, I wouldn't have expanded their tech use, but would instead have done more with formations and stacking buffs rewarding players for playing in a certain way with the Deathwing - ie, keeping them away from standard Greenwing and buffs to fighting Fallen units.

For me, all the First Founders should have one or two unique units (that their successors can use too!): Firedrakes or suchlike for Salamanders, Dark Furies or Mor Deythan for Raven Guard, Phalanx Warders for Imperial Fists, Tyrannic War Vets or Invictarii for Ultramarines, Medusan Immortals or Gorgons for Iron Hands, Golden Keshig for White Scars, or along those lines. Then, the flavour around how they're fielded and how the Chapter fights is expanded by use of stratagems and passive buffs, rather than through forcibly creating new units to justify there being so much of a gap.

One love the idea of unique units for all legions and successors.
Two when I refered to tech I always felt more along the lines of power axes sword and similar things not new entries. However I cannot dispute your view lpont as quite intriguing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

Other way around in many cases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

We actually only need two:
1. Loyalist Scum + a couple of pages to handle Renegades
2. Legions proper

I've already shown how to do the former many times.

Unimpressively. You seem more impressed by what you churn out then anyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Remember: flavor comes from the models, not rules.

You should tell those the Chaos players, they don't need dedicated rules als long as they can buy the old Legion models.....

and this also means that we would not even need supplements, just a generic Marine Codex would be enough

We actually only need two:
1. Loyalist Scum + a couple of pages to handle Renegades
2. Legions proper

I've already shown how to do the former many times.

To what end? Why are we talking about removing content? You can show how to do it all you want, but until there's an actual valid reason to do it other than "I don't collect those armies so I don't want them to have things", there's no gain to be had by doing it.

I'm talking about removing filler, not content. Remember, people here can pretend they were using the S+1 bonus for the Sanguine Priest, but the truth of the matter is that they weren't. You keep actual unique stuff and share units/upgrades that should've been shared from the get-go (because two Chapters and ALL their successors don't have and never had Thunderfire Cannons? LOL that's stupid sorry) and we would be good.

Or people actually are using them, and you just can't wrap your head around that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Part of the problem here is that anyone dares suggest that (as is the case) most "unique" units in the bloated Marine dexes are (In game) are basically slight variations on existing units - weapon option/a minor rule etc you get this complete BS strawgiant. In the lore - yes they are different culturally but so are the other 996 Marine Chapters that are out there.

why not make Space marines, and IG. If you want Tau Crisis suites, just use space marine devastators with jump packs? Banshees? Use stormtroopers with powerswords and x special rules.

Somehow that allowing (for example) other Marine tac squads to take chainswords or allowing the mixing of weapons in Terminator Squads is tableflipping the entire game, destroying the lore ( whats not been gak upon by recent dexes) and might as well have a single unit with options in the game.

You keep using the word 'strawgiant'. You seem to forget that it has absolutely no meaning. The same with every argument you post where you use that term.

Firstly, I wish to refute the claim that Ultramarines are just basic. Their culture as a Legion and Chapter is fleshed out far better in 30k, but it's still there for 40k fans too.

Secondly, I never claimed to want to remove special units that had no direct analogue. For example, Ravenwing Bikers could easily be filled in as Company Veterans on Bikes or even standard Bikers, but things like the Land Speeder Vengeance would have a unique datasheet for the Dark Angels. Any special Ravenwing rules could be covered by something in the supplement stating "XYZ units gain the <Ravenwing> keyword in a <Dark Angels> detachment", and assign rules to that keyword, or even "an Outrider Detachment comprised only of <Ravenwing> units gains an extra 5 Command Points" to encourage taking full Wings.

Basically, I'm not getting rid of things. I'm taking existing units, modifying them into the "special" versions where necessary, and saving truly unique things (like Death Company, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Deathwing Knights) to be in the supplement.

okey, but if your removing other armies rules, but keeping ultramarines specific ones, they your just forcing people to play ultramarines for their extra rules, because they would be getting all the normal stuff, all the DA stuff ported from the DA codex and their supplement, extra characters, traits etc. And GW doesn't have to make a specific outrider detachment for marines. If GW cancled DAs, they would just leave them without any such rules. And even if they did make a supplement for DA, then it could be focused around something else, maybe DW or normal marines, or primaris, and the list with bikes out of it would just be weaker then the exact same list made with ultramarines codex.

You mean like it was during 5th Edition?

Karol wrote:
okey, but if your removing other armies rules, but keeping ultramarines specific ones, they your just forcing people to play ultramarines for their extra rules, because they would be getting all the normal stuff, all the DA stuff ported from the DA codex and their supplement, extra characters, traits etc.
And GW doesn't have to make a specific outrider detachment for marines. If GW cancled DAs, they would just leave them without any such rules. And even if they did make a supplement for DA, then it could be focused around something else, maybe DW or normal marines, or primaris, and the list with bikes out of it would just be weaker then the exact same list made with ultramarines codex.

With all due respect, I honestly have no idea what your point is here, or even if you read my post.

I'm not talking about getting rid of anything that doesn't already have a direct analogue, and the truly unique stuff would just get unique datasheets as part of the supplement. The "Ultramarines Codex" does not exist, it's just as "Ultramarine" as it is "Imperial Fist" or "Raven Guard" or "Iron Hand", and those Chapters, especially the latter two, are no closer related to eachother than any of the "special" Chapters.

I'm not "getting rid of rules", I'm just applying them in different ways - aka, instead of being tied to the datasheet, it's tied to a keyword that can be applied to the datasheet. This isn't about "cancelling" anyone - everything still there, but in a smaller package, because most of the generic stuff that pads out the Codex is already in the regular Codex.

Basically, the only thing about the Dark Angels that is unique are their Wings - there is no need to have to repeat the same generic units that are already in Codex: Space Marines, so why not tie the two together, and put the unique things in the supplement, like everyone else does?

Because it would always be done at the cost of the DA. Who says GW doesn't decide that because wings armies aren't primaris, they are just going to remove them totaly in the books that comes after the supplement book? If DA don't have their own book, and have terminators, bikes etc changed by supplement rules, then the removal of the units from the core marine book, would just mean DA players are left with dead rules or rules that work only on legacy units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
You mean like it was during 5th Edition?

I don't know what happened in 5th ed, so I can't say if it was or was not like that.

What rules do DA have that couldn't be represented through sub-Faction traits, unique wargear options, and Stratagems? Honestly curious. Cuz that's how most sub-Factions are handled, even ones that play very differently from each other. Badmoonz and Goff are incredibly different from one another in how they play, but they're in the same book because those differences can be represented without the need for a whole new Codex or a Supplement.