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I can't believe this talk has gone on this long. We must be looking deep for some reasons to argue at the moment.

Let me say, while I can see reasoning for both sides, hell I have Wolves and DA.

I think we're over looking the fact GW has chosen this path for a reason. It isn't so we can feel like special snow flakes or even for the sanctity of our special marines. They really seem to want to sell us on making vastly different forces painted in different schemes to , their hope of course, buy repeat kits to represent different forces.

They want to sell us many different books, as well a Salamanders Terminator won't look like a Wolf one, or a DA one, or BA one, etc, etc.

It makes much more sense for them to make as many varied marines by look and modeling as possible so we want to make repeat forces but still stay in the marine family. Sells more books, sells more models, hell depending on how you set up your armies, sells more dice, data cards and so on.

This isn't a wild theory, this is what they've been doing for awhile now. Make the forces different enough to make it seem odd to codex flop around as modelers and people in general are very prone to OCD when it comes to look of our units.

I come to this conclusion based on the fact that aside from BT a long while back being taken back into the SM codex, the others have only grown in different units some going real far to find difference.

More recent, they've made even more supplement codex drops. But Angry, you may tell me, these aren't new codex drops, they are supplements. True, and if the other marine codex drops did get taken into the core codex, do you really think now they wouldn't just end up as supplements which is just about a codex in itself ?

We'd end up with just as many books and releases windows for marines as GW want marines to take up all this oxygen and draw all this attention.

If anything I'd see GW doing this, to bring the marines all into the core book, just to sell those factions two books as opposed to one.

To think bringing the marines together will get rid of the bloat is absolute madness at this point. Maybe like 10 years back I woulda said if they pulled them in it would lead to a one codex to rule them all. Now it'd just lead to a One codex to rule them all, with supplements that fall like rain making the core marine release take up a good half a year just on marine kits featured.

One thing about new marine armies I think you also missed is, from GW's POV they're easy. the core stats are done up, the lore is already eistablished, and a proven fan base is ther. codex: Death Guard (I used that as they're proably the most radically differant marine subfaction) was proably a LOT easier to do then say.. codex AdMech. let alone say a entirely brand new xenos race

Mmmpi wrote:

But you've still got it. You have the option to take a more flavourful version of what you want, but if you can be bothered to spend a command point on it, that's not on me. Do you want flavour, or some command points?
And no, it absolutely wouldn't take up as much room, because the amount of space a stratagem takes up is far less than a whole new datasheet and containing every single other Space Marine unit. Even *if* we were to remove nothing and keep all the same datasheets (that can be replicated with stratagems or faction special rules that would take up all of one page), you'd still need to print out every other generic unit for the full Codex!

It would save VAST amounts of space to only have generic units in the main Codex, and only include unique ones (and rules to create permutations of existing generic units) in a supplement.

Nothing about spending both points and CP makes things 'more flavorful',

WHY. Again, you're not answering my question beyond "no". Tell me why it would be less flavourful. As far as I'm concerned, having a name change and an easily applied special rule isn't enough to justify a whole new datasheet, but I want to hear you reason why this isn't the case beyond a simple "nuh uh!". Detail, depth, and actual reasoning, beyond just saying what amounts to a glorified "no u".

But, just to see what kind of page you're on: should we have a Chapter Master datasheet? A Chief Librarian datasheet? Of course, one of these for all of the various Captain entries and Librarian entries, because we should be able to have power armoured Chapter Masters, Terminator armoured Chapter Masters (in Indomitus and Cataphractii!), Gravis Chapter Masters, Primaris Chapter Masters, Phobos Chapter Masters, Bike Chapter Masters...

Gee, that's a lot of bloat right there. It's almost like having a stratagem that modifies keywords to allow for extra special rules is a functional and effecitive way of adding flavour to otherwise generic units. How about that.

Right now I don't have to pay CP to gain 'flavor'.

Again, what about Chapter Masters and Chief Librarians? Hellfire shells and hunter killer missiles? What should they be? How about the "flavour" of my Ultramarines to be able to have overlapping Overwatch? Should that be automatic too?

It would take up the same amount of room, because you would have to include a larger than normal Stratagem text box to accurately describe the change. You might as well just include the datasheet.

More room than every single generic datasheet? Ridiculous.
Let's make a compromise, shall we? Let's say you get all your unique datasheets, and we include a single page (because that's all it would take) saying what units you can't take in a DA army (so anything with the <Terminator> keyword, etc etc). You still think that would be longer than a whole Codex filled with the same generic stratagems and units that make up the main Codex? Absolutely not. You'd have a slightly larger supplement, that's for sure, but it wouldn't even come close to the size of the generic Codex, not even by a long shot. And, because I'm so generous, I wouldn't charge you any more for it than any other supplement.

So, answer me - what's wrong with that?

You describe printing generic sheets in multiple codexes as if it were a problem, when it actually means people don't have to buy six books to play their army.

Ah, I see what it is. You haven't got a problem with everyone else having to pay for their extra flavour and special characters ("yeah, I mean, screw the Iron Hands, if they want to take a single unique character, I guess they need to by a supplement!"), but if that were asked of you, that's completely out of line! /s

Should we release an Iron Hands Codex too? All the generic units, plus their Iron Hands flavour aspects? Ultramarines too? Every Chapter with any kind of unique rules? Or are they not "special" enough?

And I'm asking you what those differences actually *are*, and you're just saying (like you literally do in the below paragraph about Deathwing) "they're different because they're different".

Why. Be comprehensive with me. What are these differences, why can't they be filled by stratagems, Vigilus-style formations, and the occasional unique unit?

Don't just say "because they're different", tell me why, and maybe we'll get somewhere.

No reason to be comprehensive. I have no interest in typing out every unit's change to equipment and rules. I've already said why they would make poor formations and stratagems. I suggest you read that answer from earlier.

You clearly have enough interest to keep discussing this. I'm not asking you to keep typing out "each unit's change to equipment and rules" - I'm asking you to do it to the Deathwing alone, beyond just saying "they're different!!!1!". So you say, but you're not saying why.
You haven't said why they would make poor formations and stratagems, you've just said that they would, and not elaborated on why. If you can't tell, you're missing the critical part of your argument, actually explaining your point beyond "no u".

By all means, continue just saying "they'd be different because they'd be different", but I'm sure it's pretty clear to anyone reading that it's a facade of an argument.

No, but you're not answering my questions. And as I said, I don't care what anyone else's argument is, I'm asking you to judge the ones that I've put forward, and why you deem them unsatisfactory.

I am answering them, you just don't like the answers because they don't agree with the perspective you're trying to force on the community.

No, you're not answering them at all.

Let me pose to you a maths question: 2+2=5. Now, let me ask you another: "why is this sum wrong". At the moment, your answer is "it's wrong because it's not correct". That's not an answer, that's telling me absolutely nothing new or what I want to know.

I'm asking you to clearly point out to me *exactly* why the Deathwing Terminators datasheet is different to normal Codex Terminators, beyond "they're different". Why are they different, in what way are they different? At the moment, you're getting no marks - no passing the exam: because you're not answering the question.

What different squad sizes? What equipment options? As far as I was aware, Dark Angels Land Speeders had all the same equipment loadouts and numbers as regular Marines. But, in case I'm wrong, please, tell me exactly what was different.

Yes, you got new speeders in time, but that's not "always been around" like you've been claiming. They're a recent development, and don't forget, the Stormraven was once only for Blood Angels and Grey Knights. Now regular Marines have them. What's the say the same can't happen for Nephilim Jetfighters, eh? Also, what were these "unique speeders" that you claim the DA had prior to the new ones? I've never heard of these.

For a very long time, DA could take land speeders in squads of five and six. They had unique load outs (not talking about the current specialty speeders). At no point except for a brief spot at the end of 3rd beginning of 4th did the DA not have special speeders/load outs. Those options are different now than before, but their options have always been different.
Nothing says it can't happen. But there's also nothing that says it will happen either.

Okay, so I'll go through these, as you've had the courtesy to post them:
Squad size increase: could be fixed by a unique rule saying "<Ravenwing> Land Speeder squadrons may instead take up to X Land Speeders in the unit". However, alternatively, with more freedom in the force organisation chart, there is no need to increase how many Land Speeders you could take per unit, because we can now just spam Outrider detachments - and, as I've said with previous posts, I would want to reward <Ravenwing> Outrider detachments with a CP bonus to encourage their use as standard mainstays of the army.

Unique loadouts: What loadouts were these? I don't recall any of these in 5th. And, more pressingly, why should these unique weapon loadouts not be present for other Chapters? It's a similar situation with only Blood Angels having Librarian Dreadnoughts - why? Why are they the only Chapter to have XYZ. Similarly with Ultramarines Honour Guard, I feel they should be made generic. I full get why Sammael should be unique, because he is a unique character with a unique one-of-a-kind relic, but what about the Land Speeders with these unique loadouts I'm not aware of?

Not true. Remember, if you wanted a full Codex, you'd need to reprint every single generic datasheet for Tactical Squads, Scouts, Intercessors, Infiltrators and Incursors, their points costs, their wargear options - and that's just the Troops choices. That's, what, four pages? Three? Just for your Troops. Face it, the supplement would take up magnitudes less space, all at the cost of *gasp* SHOCK HORROR! sharing the same base units and Codex as everyone else! Hell, I wouldn't even mind if your supplement got to be a little bit bigger than the others to ensure that you have enough stratagems and rules to make a flavourful army, but it certainly wouldn't be near Codex size, because it simply doesn't need to be!

I don't actually consider this to be a problem. It also give GW room to make changes specific to one army without having to print conflicting "Check this book on pg. 98x paragraph six" when building an army. Not sure why you think information appearing in more than one place is so horrible. It also means fewer purchases for someone who wants to play DA (ect).

But when would they need to make changes to generic Tactical Marines, but not to Dark Angels ones? Again, we're not talking two completely separate factions here, we're talking armies that share the majority of the same units! When on earth would one need changing for one faction, and not the other, and if so, why? If any unique units needed to be changed, they could be changed in an FAQ for their own supplement.

And again, we then come to what feels like the real issue at hand - "fewer purchases for someone who wants to play DA". I get that. I really do. But don't you consider that just a little bit selfish to the people who want to play Ultramarines? Or Imperial Fists? Or Salamanders? Or White Scars? Or Iron Hands? Or Raven Guard? Why do they need to pay more, but those three don't? It's not like they're not also made up of the majority of the same units, using the same stratagems. Or do you support the idea of introducing Ultramarines/Imperial Fist/Salamanders/White Scars/Iron Hands/Raven Guard Codexes as well?

Not only that, but let's ignore the double standard for a second: the argument of "it's cheaper for people who want to play DA" only makes sense if they also don't want to collect another Space Marine faction. And I'm not going to pretend I know any statistics on that, but I'm inclined to believe that there is a not-insignificant proportion of DA/BA/SW players who have also owned a Space Marine Chapter that wasn't one of the "special" ones. In which case, what about those players, the ones needing to purchase a full price Codex just to ignore all the generic units that have just been reprinted in the same book?

Let's break it down to see who *really* has it unfairly.
Regular Space Marine Chapter, no explicit unique units or flavour - £25 of books
"Special" Space Marine Chapter, unique units and flavour - £25 of books
Named Space Marine Chapter, also with unique units and flavour - £42.50 of books
Regular Space Marine Chapter and a "Special" Chapter - £50 of books (which contains duplicate material)
Two Named Chapters - £60 of books (no duplicate material)
Named Chapter and "Special" Chapter - £67.50 of books (which contains duplicate material)

Sounds to me like the only time the Dark Angels player benefits from having a Codex is when they're only buying Dark Angels. But if anyone else wanted to play a Chapter with unique flavour, or heaven forfend!, play multiple unique Chapters? Well, sucks to be you.

Also, regarding flavourful things costing CP and can still be negated:
One, that's already a thing with things like Chapter Master, hellfire rounds, hunter killer missiles, and Chief Librarians.
Two, I oppose the idea of certain pre-game stratagems being able to be countered by other ones (ie, if I want to use the Chapter Master stratagem pre-game, nothing can stop me), and I've houseruled that out, because it's a stupid rule.

It doesn't matter what you agree with concerning stratagems. The ability to do it exists, and it's something that players have to account for. Furthermore, just because it is a thing, doesn't mean it should be. I feel there should be a separate sheet for Chapter Masters and Chief Librarians, rather than it being a Stratagem. That's not the case, and I'll have to live with it until GW changes it's mind.

Doesn't mean it's right, and seeing as we're already in "hypothetical changes" territory, why shouldn't we assume we could change these rules?

Or are you telling me that if GW turned around and actually did make DA into a supplement, you'd just say "oh well, guess I have to live with it then"? You're telling me you wouldn't kick up any fuss and question why they did that and just accept it?

Again, it doesn't matter what GW would do, have done, or rules that already exist. We're talking about breaking those, and why that should or shouldn't be done. Just saying "well, that's what GW have done" is a cop out answer in a hypothetical discussion about if that's right or not. As you say yourself "just because it is a thing doesn't mean it should be" - so why "should" DA/BA/SW be codexes, and not supplements?*

*and don't just say, "because they're different!" - I'm asking you to tell me why that is the case.

BrianDavion wrote:I find it amusing that the same people who complain about rules bloat are saying we should change something from a single codex into a bloated 3 book mess

I'm not complaining about rules bloat, I'm complaining about reprinting the same units which really ought to be put in a shared book. 30k does this well enough, we don't need a book for every Legion, because everyone draws from the same core units.

Is there bloat? Yes, absolutely, but there's less of it, because we're not just reprinting the same datasheets in another book. I don't understand why "supplement" means you're actually losing anything unique. Sure, I've got my own preferences on what could/should be removed, but let's ignore that for a moment - what would be inherently lost by simply transferring all the unique units, stratagems, psychic power, etc etc into a supplement, and all the generic units, psychic powers, and stratagems being left in the core Codex?

Spoletta wrote:Now, with that said, I can imagine that the snowflake chapters would be utterly delighted if they were to become a supplement to the basic marine codex, as it means that they just get to keep everything they have while also having access to a new psy table, new relics, WT and stratagems. Also, they would have Angels of Death. A little notice at the start of the supplement would read "If you play this chapter, you cannot use this list of models".
I would be really in favor of this, since right now it is counter intuitive for new players that depending on the color of your marine, you either take the marine book or something different. One would imagine that if i play marine, then i should buy the marine book.

This is really the crux of it for me. I'm not advocating getting rid of anything without some form of replacement, be that either bespoke unique datasheets, stratagems/Chapter Tactics, psychic tables, relics, and so on, but simply just ensuring that everyone's generic units are actually the same.

That way, should things need changing, all non-Ordo Space Marines get updated at once, any FAQs only need to be done once (instead of doing it for each sub-faction), and so on, so forth.

BrianDavion wrote:
I find it amusing that the same people who complain about rules bloat are saying we should change something from a single codex into a bloated 3 book mess

It only needs to be two codices, actually. Supplements are a stupid idea and separate codices for Blood and Dark Angels are the same exact stupid idea.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I find it amusing that the same people who complain about rules bloat are saying we should change something from a single codex into a bloated 3 book mess

It only needs to be two codices, actually. Supplements are a stupid idea and separate codices for Blood and Dark Angels are the same exact stupid idea.

Out of curiosity, what are your positions on Deathwatch and Grey Knights?

Also, what is your opinion on the flavour / lore benefits of supplements / separate codices?

Aelyn wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I find it amusing that the same people who complain about rules bloat are saying we should change something from a single codex into a bloated 3 book mess

It only needs to be two codices, actually. Supplements are a stupid idea and separate codices for Blood and Dark Angels are the same exact stupid idea.

Out of curiosity, what are your positions on Deathwatch and Grey Knights?

Also, what is your opinion on the flavour / lore benefits of supplements / separate codices?

Deathwatch and Grey Knights (the latter moreso) need total overhauls. I'm for an Inquisition codex covering Inquisitors + Henchmen, and then the army lists for Grey Knights (there's like nothing there so it wouldn't be hard to think of the old school Daemonhunters format with just a few extra options, really), Deathwatch (once again the same thing until everyone and their mother asked for Primaris "because", ), and lastly Sisters. It would be smaller than the current Marine codex obviously, so there's no issues with price (not that codices should be as expensive as is to begin with), and because of that it's a better buy-in for your Imperium forces. Basically I'm looking at improving Imperial Agents which had the right idea but the single worst execution in 7th, which says a lot.

I'm kinda thinking that most of the options in these stand-alone Codexes were originally added to just fill up a Codex. Like, GW could probably make a stand-alone Codex for any sub-Faction and fill it up with units that have slight differences from the other sub-Factions. And, if it went on as long as these ones did, of course people would claim that to re-consolidate would force them to lose "vital" units.

But, if we look at it objectively, are all these differences in rules really necessary to create a fluffy, unique, and flavorful army? For example, before the Ork Codex dropped, people were still running their armies as certain sub-Factions. They didn't need special rules to do so, they just themed their army in a way that made it seem "Goffy" or "Deathskully" or what have you.

That's why I asked earlier if these special units are something that you NEED or something that you WANT. Cuz I think there's a lot of people arguing their wants as something that is necessary to properly build their army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

Additionally, I also think that the Rule of 3 is bad. So that would be something I'd want removing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

Additionally, I also think that the Rule of 3 is bad. So that would be something I'd want removing.

Rule of 3 is a lazy bandaid fix for GW when they can't figure out why certain units are broken even though we have told them before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

Riiiiiiiight. Lemme know when that works out for you that you absolutely need all 4 different kinds of Terminator entries LOL

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I find it amusing that the same people who complain about rules bloat are saying we should change something from a single codex into a bloated 3 book mess

It only needs to be two codices, actually. Supplements are a stupid idea and separate codices for Blood and Dark Angels are the same exact stupid idea.

You have stated your opinion with no back up ad nauseum forever all because GW doesn't support evil as much as "good" now we know that in universe good vs evil is far more nuanced and no faction is truly good and most are varying degrees of evil.

Orks are evil to a human mindset but that's personal. Tyranids are a force of nature sort of.

The reality of all that waffle is. There are separate books because sales justify their existence. Chaos doesn't because they have given out two books of legions and I would expect a system where DA/SW/BA are brought into the supplement substrate of Codex Space Marines. Later if Chaos was given the same it could give some notable flavor to Word Bearers Night Lords, and some other chaos.

But with the exception of Aeldari and Orks I don't think there is that much variance for other factions. Druhkari are mixed smaller warbands generally. Not large civilization edifices. Tau are psycho conditioned to sameness minus the farsight enclaves. And so on.

So yeah there probably should be more books.


Also personally why is deathwatch an army? It makes no sense. Grey knights are only separate cause of Ward. But they work as an Inquisitor dexes heavy hitters

There will not be a new Codex for GW, calling it. There are 3 models in the whole GK line, not counting characters, FW, or models that double in other factions (Landraider). They sell Strikes, Paladins, and GMDKs. That is it. Unless there is a all new set of prints and models coming out, GW is not spending a DIME re-designing GK. Hell, most of their crap is Online only now.

That is the figurative kiss of death for model lines. The only hope is making them a weird Vanguardable faction like Sisters of Silence or Assassins. Pay 2 CP to give yourself 0-3 severely gimped and over-costed psychic terminators.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

Additionally, I also think that the Rule of 3 is bad. So that would be something I'd want removing.

Rule of 3 is a lazy bandaid fix for GW when they can't figure out why certain units are broken even though we have told them before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

Riiiiiiiight. Lemme know when that works out for you that you absolutely need all 4 different kinds of Terminator entries LOL

It works for me I love have multiple easy to access apothecaries that fit the fluff.
The champion is great.
The ancient is useful.
Knights smash face.
Does it win tournaments ....No.
That's because Terminators need a reworked statline. That's in all books

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

Additionally, I also think that the Rule of 3 is bad. So that would be something I'd want removing.

Rule of 3 is a lazy bandaid fix for GW when they can't figure out why certain units are broken even though we have told them before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 captain collius wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main rule Deathwing has is the morale thing, which already basically what the Chapter Tactic is to begin with. So really besides the Plasma Cannon there's nothing different.

If your argument is "but I can take a single TH/SS in my shooting squad!!!!1!" like another poster said, you still haven't a leg to stand on. Not that you did, anyway.

As a question: Do you think it should be NO Terminators should have the option to mix loadouts, or ALL Terminators should have the option?

Consolidation all into one thing, including the supposed different Mks that have no real difference functionally. Nobody mixes anyway and nobody is running more than 30 Terminators in a given list outside Grey Knights players that hate themselves. Otherwise, Terminator Command Squads were a thing for everyone before and should really be a thing again if you NEED another 15 for whatever reason.

Because, ya know, in GW's eyes, there wouldn't be a time that a Chapter wouldn't have all the same armor and there's an Autocannon Terminator around and they would NEVER be with another 4 dudes in the regular armor we already know, even though PA Marines mix all the time.

Hi player who has run 30 plus Terminators .....Your wrong.

Riiiiiiiight. Lemme know when that works out for you that you absolutely need all 4 different kinds of Terminator entries LOL

It works for me I love have multiple easy to access apothecaries that fit the fluff.
The champion is great.
The ancient is useful.
Knights smash face.
Does it win tournaments ....No.
That's because Terminators need a reworked statline. That's in all books

All you're doing is describing Characters. Did you even read my initial post about Terminators?

Your post was a opinion that you claim is a fact. Terminators are underpowered but I don't want command squads back they were inefficient and less fun IMHO. I love Deathwing knights I have 30 shooting Terminators and 50 assault Terminators ... Only 5 cataphractii.

I will give you tartaros are not very different but they do have different loadouts.

Cataphractii are separate.

Then characters. Also I have a wishlisty dream wherein fluff has verteran DW Primaris Aggressors are added in or we get Primaris Terminator armor.

At this point having separate codices for BA, DA and SW is just silly. It causes all sorts of weird issues when things that are supposed to be similar really aren't because the books are written at different times.

These chapters would need a few datasheets more than other supplements have, but nothing massive.

 captain collius wrote:
Your post was a opinion that you claim is a fact. Terminators are underpowered but I don't want command squads back they were inefficient and less fun IMHO. I love Deathwing knights I have 30 shooting Terminators and 50 assault Terminators ... Only 5 cataphractii.

I will give you tartaros are not very different but they do have different loadouts.

Cataphractii are separate.

Then characters. Also I have a wishlisty dream wherein fluff has verteran DW Primaris Aggressors are added in or we get Primaris Terminator armor.

I hate the way command squads were split between so many units. It's so clunky and annoying.

pm713 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Your post was a opinion that you claim is a fact. Terminators are underpowered but I don't want command squads back they were inefficient and less fun IMHO. I love Deathwing knights I have 30 shooting Terminators and 50 assault Terminators ... Only 5 cataphractii.

I will give you tartaros are not very different but they do have different loadouts.

Cataphractii are separate.

Then characters. Also I have a wishlisty dream wherein fluff has verteran DW Primaris Aggressors are added in or we get Primaris Terminator armor.

I hate the way command squads were split between so many units. It's so clunky and annoying.

Fair.i hated how i needed the banner in one side and the apothecary on another but I think it's more of a personal preference and tactical choice.

 captain collius wrote:
Your post was a opinion that you claim is a fact. Terminators are underpowered but I don't want command squads back they were inefficient and less fun IMHO. I love Deathwing knights I have 30 shooting Terminators and 50 assault Terminators ... Only 5 cataphractii.

I will give you tartaros are not very different but they do have different loadouts.

Cataphractii are separate.

Then characters. Also I have a wishlisty dream wherein fluff has verteran DW Primaris Aggressors are added in or we get Primaris Terminator armor.

"Different loadouts"
They all carry Storm Bolters (and if you're really gonna say Combi-Bolters are somehow distinct you're delusional) and Power Fists. They can all switch for Lightning Claws.

What's the difference? Oh yeah, one can only take a Heavy Flamer...which both other variants get. Oh and one switch the Assault Cannon for an Autocannon. Oh and one of the Sergeants takes range weapons nobody would take anyway.
Based on the argument I already made (no mix and matching because 4 standard Terminators and an Autocannon Terminator is SCARY), does there really need any distinction for rules? The truth is that, no, there doesn't need to be. The base is all the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless you wanna argue that the different Mks of Power Armor all need different rules because they have different kits, then go ahead.

Slayer, you've made your point. You've also ignored or dismissed every valid reason given for why these armies are and have been treat as separate armies for the last 25yrs (maybe longer). You don't like that there's Deathwing Terminators, whatever the SW version is called, 'codex' terminators. You don't like that units like the Baal predator or Sanuguinary Priests exist as a a different version of codex units.

You complaint seems to boil down to 'but but Space Marines got models and kits and we need to condense the rules'. And if it's not that then I honestly don;t know what your point is anymore because it's the same circular logic every time. 'X unit is the same as Y unit, so let's remove all the bits that makes X different so it can be Y'. And, as valid an opinion as that is, it's not how the company (y'know with the designers, and developers, and manufacturing materials that make this stuff) wants to do it. They have a pretty clear design paradigm for why these armies are separate and, frankly, it's a decision taken 30+ years ago that they've stuck with.

Considering the backlash they still get over the Squats, Black Templars, removal of rules options for Eldar and Dark Eldar, the idea that they should just consolidate everything into 1 datasheet for terminators, or 1 data sheet for dreadnoughts, or 1 datasheet for 'veterans' eventually leads to the removal of those options from players and then the removal of models from the range. Why sell a Deathwin box when it's not going to have any content in it that the standard terminator box doesn't already have. And yes I can see that being precisely they way that they could go about doing that, because you wont get things like Plasma Cannons on 'all' Terminators you'll just remove Plasma Cannons from the 1 unit of that kind, in the 1 faction that can take them.

And before you go with the 'but you could just play a stratagem to do the same stuff', come on. We all know that the internet (and this forum especially) takes a 'tournament list only' approach, so just like how you never see anyone play a Sanguinary Priest (and anyone that does is 'lying') you'd also be telling people that they don't play the Deathwing strat and are 'lying' about playing what would be a sub-optimal option. Oh and it would be adding rules bloat, that thing you're arguing as the reason to condense into 1 datasheet anyway.

In fairness I think they should condense the Terminator rules so we don't have all the different marks having different rules. I don't mind things like Deathwing Terminators having different rules but it's just unnecessary to have three kinds of Deathwing Terminator.

That's a result of Heresy being popular enough to justofy plastic kits, and the (then) 40k-only players demanding 40k rules for them.

In Heresy/30k different versions of terminator armour doing different things makes for a tactical choice on what you play. In 8th it doesn't really, even though they've kept the features of the pre-8th variant rules. So yeah, 1 datasheet that covers 'Terminators' and allows you to use different models is fine. But condensing say Deathwing and the SW one's into the same sheet, removing rules (and options) for the sake of 'well we must have 1 sheet' just seems like going that bit too far, and too close to removing models from the range because someone doesn't like them existing

 captain collius wrote:
Also personally why is deathwatch an army? It makes no sense.

I take you never read a single word of fluff about them?

Yeah, why would an army of tens of thousands of astartes who work alone and are divergent almost to GK level have a standalone book? FYI, that's more than Ynnari, Custodes, BA, DA, SW, BT, Inquisition, Knights of both flavors, and a lot others have combined. And frankly, if there is army that makes no sense and should be squatted, DA open the list. They are just whiny Codex compliant chapter, roll them into SM, give them one page of rules like HH books do, done. If it works there, there is no reason why it won't work in 40K.

 captain collius wrote:
Grey knights are only separate cause of Ward. But they work as an Inquisitor dexes heavy hitters

Ah, so also hilariously wrong about rules, too. You're aware that Ward GK dex was just Daemonhunter book, except done properly (aka you could mix both parts, but GK and Inquisition could also stand on their own, incidentally the only book in history of either that managed to make it work), right? Codex: "GK only" was the work of inept idiot who came after Ward and frakked up viability of GK by pointlessly gutting the faction, alongside with total deletion of Inquisition from 40K for three editions now, what a stellar job

I'd personally rather "THey're Terminators" rules. You should see what passes for a Wraithlord or WarTrukk or Shining Spear or StormBoy in the more creative Exodite or Ork lists. Variants of "Ancient super-durable armor used by the most elite Marines" could easily have multiple models for the same rules.

Seeing as the most elite (non-command) Battle Brother decorated marksman with centuries of combat experiences has the same on-field shooting stats as Bob who just hit the field as a Battle Brother for the first time two minutes ago, there can be differences between models/units that aren't necessarily different rules.

I think I'd like to see Termies consolidated to one or two entries (depending on if you want to keep the CC/ranged loadouts seperate). I also wouldn't mind seeing DA/BA and/or SW become supplements (provided all their actually-unique units - of which there are many - are retained). Consolidating GK and DW seems like a couple bridges too far, though.

And ripping Chaos Marines out of Codex:Chaos Marines seems really pants-on-head. All the downsides of codex splitting with none of the upsides.

 Irbis wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Also personally why is deathwatch an army? It makes no sense.

I take you never read a single word of fluff about them?

Yeah, why would an army of tens of thousands of astartes who work alone and are divergent almost to GK level have a standalone book? FYI, that's more than Ynnari, Custodes, BA, DA, SW, BT, Inquisition, Knights of both flavors, and a lot others have combined. And frankly, if there is army that makes no sense and should be squatted, DA open the list. They are just whiny Codex compliant chapter, roll them into SM, give them one page of rules like HH books do, done. If it works there, there is no reason why it won't work in 40K.

An army that is made up of units from multiple chapters and fluff wise has never made any sense as taking out threats to humanity. Their so called fluff is nonsense they work as a kill team not as a full on army.

Two if you think DA should be treated as a supplement congratulations I agree the fluff is fun but only needed for those like me who care and then any units that diverge from Codex Space Marines should be listed. Of which we have a few. And an added formation or two for running all Deathwing or Ravenwing without the loss of CP would be nice.

Maybe have an interrogator chaplain in Terminator armor grant 2 CP if all units in the army are all key word Deathwing?

 captain collius wrote:
An army that is made up of units from multiple chapters and fluff wise has never made any sense as taking out threats to humanity. Their so called fluff is nonsense they work as a kill team not as a full on army.

You know, I actually think I agree on this. There's a few factions in game that don't really make sense as full armies (and by that, I mean above 1000 points), such as Inquisition (yeah, they'll have retainers and specialists, but if they want a large force, they'll just requisition -read, ally- with other organisations, including xenos if needed) and Deathwatch. Yes, they have a very very large organisation (and for what it's worth, I do think that them being made up of different Chapters makes sense and is cool), but that organisation is spread across the Imperium, and the vast majority of their operations are those small Kill Team sized missions. It's not even like Grey Knights and Custodes who are so expensive and pricey that their full sized armies are actually pretty small. The Deathwatch just aren't valuable enough to make up a full sized army of few models.

The problem is that they do have non-Kill Team equipment such as vehicles and gunships, but the Deathwatch just don't really deploy en masse.

Two if you think DA should be treated as a supplement congratulations I agree the fluff is fun but only needed for those like me who care and then any units that diverge from Codex Space Marines should be listed. Of which we have a few. And an added formation or two for running all Deathwing or Ravenwing without the loss of CP would be nice.

Maybe have an interrogator chaplain in Terminator armor grant 2 CP if all units in the army are all key word Deathwing?

That's pretty much what I advocate. Certainly feature the genuinely unique units (all special characters, Deathwing Knights, their various Land Speeders/Jetfighters, and Black Knights), find a way to make certain generic units (Terminators, Bikes, Land Speeders) have the <Deathwing> and <Ravenwing> keywords respectively and tie abilities to those keywords, and then create some kind of formations (not just for DA, but for all factions!) to encourage taking certain armies.

Examples of these would be:
"A Battleforged Dark Angels Vanguard Detachment only made up of units with the <Deathwing> keyword rewards 5 Command Points, instead of the standard amount."
"A Battleforged Dark Angels Outrider Detachment only made up of units with the <Ravenwing> keyword rewards 5 Command Points, instead of the standard amount."
"A Battleforged Blood Angels Outrider Detachment only made up of units with the <Jump Pack> keyword rewards 5 Command Points, instead of the standard amount."
"A Battleforged Iron Hands Vanguard Detachment only made up of units with the <Techmarine> or <Dreadnought> keywords rewards 5 Command Points, instead of the standard amount."

So on, so forth.

"A Battleforged Grey Knights Vanguard Detachment only made up of units with the <Grey Knight> keyword rewards -1 Command Point, instead of the standard amount."

Wouldn't the rule consolidation coming from 1 codex for marines be very short lived? GW loves to sell DLC style books. If they put marines in one book, a month or two later, we would start getting supplements for specific marines. And the bloat would return, only now people would have to buy 2 books instead of one, to get their core army rules. I get that this is good for GW sales, but I doubt players would like that.

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't the rule consolidation coming from 1 codex for marines be very short lived? GW loves to sell DLC style books. If they put marines in one book, a month or two later, we would start getting supplements for specific marines. And the bloat would return, only now people would have to buy 2 books instead of one, to get their core army rules. I get that this is good for GW sales, but I doubt players would like that.

That's exactly what's happening now? Only some people feel that their named chapter shouldn't be like other named chapters, and should get a whole book of their own, despite sharing most of the same units.

Hey, I'd be all for Codex: Imperial Fists, Codex: Salamanders, and so on, but given how many units are shared over, I think that either supplements or putting *everything* (unique special characters, stratagems, warlord traits, psychic powers, etc etc) in one book are the best way to do this.

Well I would rather get new codex. Then let say GW in X time deciding to make a GK supplement, working on the base of space marines chapter, that has zero GK models I own, being worth taken, but be loaded with strange new lore, how they are GK primaris etc.

I don't think many DA/SW/BA players would be happy to give up most of their chapter character, in hope that maybe GW is going to bring some of it back in a supplement. Because you can get a supplement like marines, or you can get a book like chaos or eldar. And worse thing is that people with good books are going to tell you that you should be happy, you just got a new book.