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Dandelion wrote:
So is that bad or too good?

Well, it means you're playing World Eaters, so you're playing for the lulz already.

RIP

Well, hopefully Not Online will elaborate his point since I don’t know what he means.

Dandelion wrote:
So is that bad or too good?

BAD;, because screw you for actually wanting more then 1, ONE, squad of such terminators. (GW torwards WE players, probably)

Also you play, as stated above WE, so no double shooting aswell, and with a FURTHER CP for reroll you might manage to get that squad in, and yet they still are termites, WE termites btw, so good luck. ( Oh did we mention that you ain't playing psykers aswell, ya know that what is actually good for CSM, yeah that, you don't get that aswell.)


So not even for fun you can field more of these amazing Terminators from the fluff, because you are not allowed too and competitively an about 67% chance for a successfull charge, with no real help is not good.

So the problem with the strat is the fact that it’s limited to one use? I was assuming in my post that these strats would be multi use, otherwise, yeah it sucks.

Dandelion wrote:
So the problem with the strat is the fact that it’s limited to one use? I was assuming in my post that these strats would be multi use, otherwise, yeah it sucks.

Well probably because it is marines you get "lucky"but even then as you can see there are caveats an meaning That it is just an upgraded other unit it might just take that baggage with it.

Castozor wrote:The whole pay x CP for upgrade just irks me. Both because more often than not it limits it to 1 unit per army, and because I'd much rather just factor it into my list building with a fixed cost rather than "magically" upgrade them at game start. Personal opinion of course.

While I see both points, I think the problem isn't in the fact it's a stratagem, but more that GW haven't allowed for taking multiple "unit upgrade" stratagems pre-game, which is something I also agree needs to be amended and corrected.

Stratagems like Ard Boyz, Red Butchers, Officio Prefectus Command Tank, etc etc should to be able to be taken multiple times, in an ideal world, and in my houserules.

Regarding factoring into list building, it would factor in, you just reserve X amount of command points on your roster instead of use actual points. So, for me, I always reserve some Command Points on my list for things like Chapter Master, or Command Tank, or so on, because that corresponds to the models I take, regardless of if they serve a specific purpose in that game.

Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for. CP should only be for tricks during the play. Why sometimes better unit costs more points sometimes more CP? It's just arbitrary. And why making an army of Veteran Intercessors led by a Chapter Master nets you less CP for the actual game? Certainly an army of veterans led by an experienced commander should be able to execute more complex manoeuvres and tricks and not less?

It’s funny, because I feel that strats should all just be pregame mechanics and not actually have them be used mid game. They slow my games down since I don’t play often and I can’t remember most of them. Another point is that by using strat upgrades we don’t have to add vet intercessor datasheets, which would directly compete with regular intercessors.

Jokes on you! A different unit of mine can be Black Guardians, members of the standing army instead of militiamen, each turn.

This turn, my leftmost squad are standing forces with a great deal of battle experience, and everyone else are poets and basketweavers, going about their craft up until yesterday, when they'd been pressed into service in desperation.

Next turn, my leftmost squad hasn't seen combat in centuries, but my rightmost has been in active guardsmen of the Craftworld for what humans would call generations!

Because that makes so much more sense.

Bharring wrote:
Jokes on you! A different unit of mine can be Black Guardians, members of the standing army instead of militiamen, each turn.

This turn, my leftmost squad are standing forces with a great deal of battle experience, and everyone else are poets and basketweavers, going about their craft up until yesterday, when they'd been pressed into service in desperation.

Next turn, my leftmost squad hasn't seen combat in centuries, but my rightmost has been in active guardsmen of the Craftworld for what humans would call generations!

Because that makes so much more sense.

Ah yes those are even better then the limited 1 upgrades or upgrade stratagems as a whole

Not to mention each time a CSM with ML want's to do AA duty he needs to vox in the Lord? Like why?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Jokes on you! A different unit of mine can be Black Guardians, members of the standing army instead of militiamen, each turn.

This turn, my leftmost squad are standing forces with a great deal of battle experience, and everyone else are poets and basketweavers, going about their craft up until yesterday, when they'd been pressed into service in desperation.

Next turn, my leftmost squad hasn't seen combat in centuries, but my rightmost has been in active guardsmen of the Craftworld for what humans would call generations!

Because that makes so much more sense.

Ah yes those are even better then the limited 1 upgrades or upgrade stratagems as a whole

Not to mention each time a CSM with ML want's to do AA duty he needs to vox in the Lord? Like why?

Hey those aa missiles are expensive! Can't just go firing them off willie nillie without approval! And filling out the appropriate forms ! In triplicate!

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Jokes on you! A different unit of mine can be Black Guardians, members of the standing army instead of militiamen, each turn.

This turn, my leftmost squad are standing forces with a great deal of battle experience, and everyone else are poets and basketweavers, going about their craft up until yesterday, when they'd been pressed into service in desperation.

Next turn, my leftmost squad hasn't seen combat in centuries, but my rightmost has been in active guardsmen of the Craftworld for what humans would call generations!

Because that makes so much more sense.

Ah yes those are even better then the limited 1 upgrades or upgrade stratagems as a whole

Not to mention each time a CSM with ML want's to do AA duty he needs to vox in the Lord? Like why?

Hey those aa missiles are expensive! Can't just go firing them off willie nillie without approval! And filling out the appropriate forms ! In triplicate!

The darkmechanicum bureaucracy is the most vile and cruel existing bureaucracy there is in all of 40k.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The darkmechanicum bureaucracy is the most vile and cruel existing bureaucracy there is in all of 40k.

Eventually they will get all the necessary approvals and we'll actually see their army.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The darkmechanicum bureaucracy is the most vile and cruel existing bureaucracy there is in all of 40k.

Eventually they will get all the necessary approvals and we'll actually see their army.

we have seen their army.
Mass servitors, and daemonengines galore.

WE also have seen bloodpact, Hive revolutions and radical fundamentalists.
We have seen the uprisings of the Mutants and the psychic corruption.

All were representable on the tables.

And now we have seen the band-of-murderhobos-index, written by tony the drunken intern that calls itself index astra militarum from FW.

Not Online!!! wrote:
we have seen their army.
Mass servitors, and daemonengines galore.

WE also have seen bloodpact, Hive revolutions and radical fundamentalists.
We have seen the uprisings of the Mutants and the psychic corruption.

All were representable on the tables.

And now we have seen the band-of-murderhobos-index, written by tony the drunken intern that calls itself index astra militarum from FW.

I have higher hopes for the Dark Mechanicus, I am ever the sunny optimist however.

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

No. That only happens if the upgrade is too cheap.

Alternatively, using a Strat to upgrade a SINGLE unit is a good way to limit spamming said unit in every form of play (not just Matched Organized play). I could easily see this being GWs mentality for certain things.

It was thought that Primaris Marines were immune to the Black Rage, but they are not. But it should still be RARE for it to happen. Ergo, you get 1 unit per army period.

-

 Crimson wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

No. That only happens if the upgrade is too cheap.

Basic Guardian squad - 10 Guardians - finds use as a min GEQ unit to hold a point and fill a slot.
Full Guardian squad - upgraded to 20 Guardians - finds use to blob a location or to DS alpha-strike something

An example of a unit where both the base unit and the upgraded version, paying only points for the upgrade, are useful.

Bharring wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

No. That only happens if the upgrade is too cheap.

Basic Guardian squad - 10 Guardians - finds use as a min GEQ unit to hold a point and fill a slot.
Full Guardian squad - upgraded to 20 Guardians - finds use to blob a location or to DS alpha-strike something

An example of a unit where both the base unit and the upgraded version, paying only points for the upgrade, are useful.

I believe he means an upgrade that can apply to a min unit for no points (like a strat or better yet and trait)
So to further your anology, it would be like 10 BLACK Guardians, in which any 10 Guardian unit can upgrade for free to get BS2+ by using a specific trait. There'd vertically no reason NOT to do that, hence the basic 10 Guardians are never used

At least, that's what I think is meant

-

Basically crimson wants sidegrades not upgrades.

F.E: A sidegrade in the past was Ard Boyz, which had a 4+ sv but cost more points.

Doctrines were also tied with this.

not to mention IA13. Infact GW / FW was actaually not too bad in that regard.
Sometimes.

If the upgrade is worth roughly it's points - and neither more nor less than that - then that's what you're calling a sidegrade?

Becuase how you're describing Ard Boyz - it's an upgrade. They now have 4+ armor. But it's not for free - you pay for it.

Similarly, taking another 10 Guardians is an 'upgrade' - the 20-man squad is clearly better. But by your construct, it's a 'sidegrade' - the 20man unit is not necessarily better (or worse) than the 10man unit, for the points you're paying for it.

All upgrades (and unit choices) should be "sidegrades" in that regard.

Bharring wrote:
If the upgrade is worth roughly it's points - and neither more nor less than that - then that's what you're calling a sidegrade?

Becuase how you're describing Ard Boyz - it's an upgrade. They now have 4+ armor. But it's not for free - you pay for it.

Similarly, taking another 10 Guardians is an 'upgrade' - the 20-man squad is clearly better. But by your construct, it's a 'sidegrade' - the 20man unit is not necessarily better (or worse) than the 10man unit, for the points you're paying for it.

All upgrades (and unit choices) should be "sidegrades" in that regard.

An upgrade for me in game terms is, if an option is outright superior in most if not all cases.
A sidegrade for me is if it is a choice i willingly make.

in this case it was pay 4 more points and get actual armor, or go cheap.

 Crimson wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

No. That only happens if the upgrade is too cheap.

But, if the upgrade is too expensive then it won’t be used. The point upgrade system only really works if the new unit is worth exactly what the base unit is worth, which is difficult to pull off and just leads to redundant units. Imo strat upgrades are a neat way to avoid this problem.

Dandelion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

No. That only happens if the upgrade is too cheap.

But, if the upgrade is too expensive then it won’t be used. The point upgrade system only really works if the new unit is worth exactly what the base unit is worth, which is difficult to pull off and just leads to redundant units. Imo strat upgrades are a neat way to avoid this problem.

Hence where the word "Balance" comes from in the phase "Balance".

Making sure choices - whether they're different units, or different upgrade configurations of the same unit - are worth the same value for their points is what balance is all about.

Strat upgrades don't fully avoid this problem. Why would I take the unupgraded unit for the same points, if I can't use the stratagem? The base unit is still replaced by the upgraded version if you only take one. You'd only be taking the base unit without the stratagem if you've already taken the upgraded version. But then, in that case, if the weaker option is worth it's points to you, the stronger option is certainly worth *more* than it's points to you.

Dandelion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

No. That only happens if the upgrade is too cheap.

But, if the upgrade is too expensive then it won’t be used. The point upgrade system only really works if the new unit is worth exactly what the base unit is worth, which is difficult to pull off and just leads to redundant units. Imo strat upgrades are a neat way to avoid this problem.

So would you remove vanguard veterans as an elite option and turn it into a 1cp strategem on assault squads?

Personally I'd love the option to pay 2 ppm to upgrade my raptors to have the vv stat line and equipment options.

Or to make csm into chosen for that matter. And give me my melta bombs back.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If the upgrade is worth roughly it's points - and neither more nor less than that - then that's what you're calling a sidegrade?

Becuase how you're describing Ard Boyz - it's an upgrade. They now have 4+ armor. But it's not for free - you pay for it.

Similarly, taking another 10 Guardians is an 'upgrade' - the 20-man squad is clearly better. But by your construct, it's a 'sidegrade' - the 20man unit is not necessarily better (or worse) than the 10man unit, for the points you're paying for it.

All upgrades (and unit choices) should be "sidegrades" in that regard.

An upgrade for me in game terms is, if an option is outright superior in most if not all cases.
A sidegrade for me is if it is a choice i willingly make.

in this case it was pay 4 more points and get actual armor, or go cheap.

This might be a terminology problem, but I've always seen unit options referenced as "upgrades".

But the construct you're referencing - "An outright superior option in most if not all cases" - is basically the definition of OP. Options in this game should never be "outright superior".

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Unit upgrade stratagems are stupid. This is what points are for.

If it were points and the change was actually useful then the base unit would never be used.

No. That only happens if the upgrade is too cheap.

But, if the upgrade is too expensive then it won’t be used. The point upgrade system only really works if the new unit is worth exactly what the base unit is worth, which is difficult to pull off and just leads to redundant units. Imo strat upgrades are a neat way to avoid this problem.

So would you remove vanguard veterans as an elite option and turn it into a 1cp strategem on assault squads?

Personally I'd love the option to pay 2 ppm to upgrade my raptors to have the vv stat line and equipment options.

Or to make csm into chosen for that matter. And give me my melta bombs back.

Pretty much, yeah.

Dandelion wrote:

But, if the upgrade is too expensive then it won’t be used. The point upgrade system only really works if the new unit is worth exactly what the base unit is worth, which is difficult to pull off and just leads to redundant units. Imo strat upgrades are a neat way to avoid this problem.

It doesn't avoid the problem, it moves the same problem into a less granular system, making balancing even harder.

I really do not understand how so many people seem to have a problem grasping the basic concept of points, a system this game has used for decades: units with more powerful rules cost more points.

I always viewed a "sidegrade" as an option where you gain something but lose something else. Like, in your 'Ard Boyz example, I'd say the option to get a 4+ Save is roughly equivalent to giving up Green Tide (+1 Attack if over 20 models). I'd call that a "sidegrade". Tacking a price onto something doesn't really make it less of an upgrade, any more than buying a new phone doesn't make it an upgrade of your current one. An upgrade should always be an improvement over the original.

Tldr; a sidegrade should be an option that is equal in value to the original, while an upgrade should be a superior choice, even if it costs you more.