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What I think is interesting about this whole thing is that the Angels were given most of those unique models to justify having their own codex.

When they got their 4th Edition codex, the only unique models the DA had were their named characters. Everything else used all the same models and stats. The only structural differences were Terminator Weapon options and being able to purchase a Land Speeder with your Bike Squads. To add on to it, the only Space Marine codices which stated that they weren't Codex Chapters were Black Templars and Space Wolves. Both Angel codices have said for a long time that they were Codex Chapters, aside from the Wings and Death Company.

Terminator Apothecaries even existed in Codex: Space Marines when that DA codex was released, but they were part of the Command Squads. Those Terminator Command Squads didn't go away till 5th Edition. It wouldn't take a genius to figure out how to bring them back in the current edition, either (though with all the bloat it has and the renewed focus on Primaris...).

 Charistoph wrote:
What I think is interesting about this whole thing is that the Angels were given most of those unique models to justify having their own codex.

When they got their 4th Edition codex, the only unique models the DA had were their named characters. Everything else used all the same models and stats. The only structural differences were Terminator Weapon options and being able to purchase a Land Speeder with your Bike Squads. To add on to it, the only Space Marine codices which stated that they weren't Codex Chapters were Black Templars and Space Wolves. Both Angel codices have said for a long time that they were Codex Chapters, aside from the Wings and Death Company.

Terminator Apothecaries even existed in Codex: Space Marines when that DA codex was released, but they were part of the Command Squads. Those Terminator Command Squads didn't go away till 5th Edition. It wouldn't take a genius to figure out how to bring them back in the current edition, either (though with all the bloat it has and the renewed focus on Primaris...).

Brilliant idea : let's go back to 4th ed. Yeah there was less diversity back then...

Are characters not units? It says they are in the rulebook. I honestly don't care if they're single model units, or full 10 man squads - datasheets are datasheets. 

Regardless if you like it or not, the difference between *datasheets* is very little - under a dozen.

This might be the most stupid argument I've seen on dakka. You cannot build an "army" with veteran, victrix, Guilliman and Cassius. That's a valable list in this ed., that's not an army deserving a specific codex because an army is not only a band or a group of units, it has coherence and must be able to face most if not all type of threat with specialized unit for each task, as it exist in all codexes.

You understand that Ultramarines have Terminator Ancients, right? Not just Dark Angels. 

But hey, in the same way, you can paint a normal Terminator model bone-white, and it's "Deathwing"! /s

Again think a little, use your brain. The problem is not that others can or could have termi ancient, the problem is that DW players MUST have a termi Ancient, champion and apothecary because they cannot have non termi units.

The only reason I've allowed them as unique is because they have plasma talons. That's it. Without those plasma talons, I'd be wanting them made generic. 

You have no right to allow or forbid anything. You're unable to give actual arguments outside a few hypocritical and caricatural comments

TangoTwoBravo wrote:SMy argument is that the Dark Angels add variety at minimal design cost to the game.

15% of their units do. The other 85% are just duplicates, and add nothing.

It would be an even smaller cost to the game to stop reprinting 85% of the same units, wasting paper, ink and time, and instead just putting all the DA exclusive stuff in their own book. The entire POINT of supplements was to do exactly as you describe - add variety at minimal design cost - so they didn't have to make full Codexes for factions that shared the vast majority of their units. And, like it or not, the vast majority of DA units are just reskinned generic ones.

What "variety" is gained by having "Codex" printed on the book, instead of "supplement"? If someone wants the variety of Dark Angels units, they can buy the supplement.

They have unique units and lose access to others that the other Space Marines have.

As does EVERY OTHER CHAPTER. I'm not denying your point, it's true, but you neglect to recognise that what you're claiming is a reason the DA should be unique just isn't something unique to them at all.

It would be like me claiming "Ultramarines should have their own Codex because they have unique units, and can't take other unique units" - it's not special, everyone has that! If DA/BA/SW have a reason to be separate, it needs to because of something that no other Chapter shares. And right now, none have been offered.

Putting aside Named Characters, what unique units do the Iron Hands have and which ones do they lose from the baseline Codex?

Why are we putting aside Named Characters? They're units, like any other.
Furthermore, even if we did ignore named characters, what about their stratagems, warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, and suchlike? Those are all unique features.
But, even if that's apparently not good enough, what about Chapters like the Black Templars and Ultramarines, who do have unique units. Should they have their own Codexes?

As for what they would lose - they lose the unique abilities that every other Chapters has, they lose access to things like Guilliman, or to Garadon, or to Vulkan. Again, those are still options they *could* have taken if they weren't Iron Hands, but they made that tradeoff.

Let's just park your Supplement/Stratagem idea. If you don't want the Dark Angels Codex then don't buy it.

It's not that I don't want it - it's that I see no point for it, when it could be easily added into the roster of supplements. If it were actually made into a supplement, there's a higher chance I'd actually buy it than as a waste of 85% of it's datatsheets.

It seems you want to impose your choices on others.

I'm making discussions and sharing opinions on the Internet. I'm not "imposing" anything on anyone - I have no power, no influence, and am literally just saying why I think XYZ would be better.

Is someone saying "I think Space Marines should have 2 Wounds each" *imposing* my choice on others? No, it's sharing an opinion/proposal, and discussing the merits of that proposal.

I say let the market decide.

Obviously?? But we're discussing if it should be like the way it is. That's how discussions about these kinds of things work.

It wouldn't exactly be useful if we were discussing "should every faction have something like Combat Doctrines", and then someone just said "well, let the market decide". That offers nothing to the discussion.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:Which imbalance issues? How are the Dark Angels at fault for any imbalance? Iron Hands seem pretty powerful now - go play them. They are more powerful then other Codex Compliant Chapters. Are you saying that all Space Marines should be the same? I am arguing that there should be variety.

Would Dark Angels not have variety if they were mechanically identical, but put in a supplement?

All I'm trying to get at is your idea of "variety" - are you talking mechanical variety (ie, Dark Angels get XYZ rules, units, etc etc), or variety of books to pick from? Because one of those kinds of variety, mechanical, could just as easily be implemented via supplement, and the other just feels pointless - variety for the sake of it, with no reason.

Or, to put it another way - if I were redesigning 40k's factions right now, in the current 8th edition ruleset and with the ability to make supplements, why should Dark Angels have a unique *Codex*, and not a unique *Supplement*? If it was just "because variety", I could just as easily make every First Founding Chapter have their own Codex - is that something you support?

Indeed, the point is that they offer variety at minimal design cost by having something in common.

But that's the problem! They have such a low design cost because they're just copy-pasting units from the core Space Marine book - if they're relying on so much from there (85%), then should they really be a separate Codex? Why shouldn't their actual unique units be printed in a smaller supplement, and their generic units which make up the vast majority of their options left in the core Codex?

Right now, your point there is "Dark Angels having loads of copypasted units from the Codex is more reason they should be a unique book" - if that's the case, then we shouldn't have ANY supplements, and every supplement Chapter should have their own unique Codex, because "they offer variety at minimal design cost by having something in common".
Is that something you support?

WhiteDog wrote:

Are characters not units? It says they are in the rulebook. I honestly don't care if they're single model units, or full 10 man squads - datasheets are datasheets. 

Regardless if you like it or not, the difference between *datasheets* is very little - under a dozen.

This might be the most stupid argument I've seen on dakka. You cannot build an "army" with veteran, victrix, Guilliman and Cassius.

Yes, you can.

Vanguard Detachment:
HQ - Calgar (why not, he fought in the Tyrannic War)
HQ - Cassius
Elites - Tyrannic War Veterans
Elites - Tyrannic War Veterans
Elites - Tyrannic War Veterans

That's 25PL, or roughly a 500 point list. What's wrong with that list? Why isn't it an "army"?

Is a Tyranid army composed of a Broodlord and 3 units of Genestealers not an "army"? Why not?

When you can define what an "army" is, that doesn't disqualify both, then I might concede this. But so far, by all accounts, my Tyrannic War Vanguard detachment meets every GW-set critera.

That's a valable list in this ed., that's not an army deserving a specific codex because an army is not only a band or a group of units, it has coherence and must be able to face most if not all type of threat with specialized unit for each task, as it exist in all codexes.

Does my Tyranid "army" fulfil these? Nope.
My Tyrannic War army has coherence. And even regular "armies" aren't even capable of facing every threat - how well do mono-Harlequins do against mono-Knights?

You understand that Ultramarines have Terminator Ancients, right? Not just Dark Angels. 

But hey, in the same way, you can paint a normal Terminator model bone-white, and it's "Deathwing"! /s

Again think a little, use your brain. The problem is not that others can or could have termi ancient, the problem is that DW players MUST have a termi Ancient, champion and apothecary because they cannot have non termi units.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that all Dark Angels lists are actually only made up of Deathwing, and that all Deathwing player MUST have to take an Apothecary, Ancient and Champion in their lists!

Oh, wait, they don't.

What reason do you have for Dark Angels being the only Chapter to have Terminator Apothecaries, especially in the light of Terminator Ancients? If it was because "only the Deathwing have so many suits of Terminator Armour", what reason is there for every other Chapter to have Terminator Ancients then?
Remember, "use your brain".

The only reason I've allowed them as unique is because they have plasma talons. That's it. Without those plasma talons, I'd be wanting them made generic. 

You have no right to allow or forbid anything. You're unable to give actual arguments outside a few hypocritical and caricatural comments

Calm down a bit, mate. I don't have any authority over anything, I'm just saying what I would and wouldn't do with my own personal take on the DA. I'm not pretending that I have some kind of "right to allow or forbid anything".

But, regarding "unable to give arguments outside of a few hypocritical and caricatural comments" - is that so? Please, if you'd be so kind - where are these comments?

And why haven't I seen a good argument from you refuting my points?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that all Dark Angels lists are actually only made up of Deathwing, and that all Deathwing player MUST have to take an Apothecary, Ancient and Champion in their lists!

There are many pure DW players yes. There have been many pure DW players for years. You'd know it if you had some knowledge on the subject.
The fact is you just cannot build a non termi ancient for a DA first compagny. The same goes for a Revenwing army, and many play those kind of armies.
It's even coherent with the fluff of the game :

Calm down a bit, mate. I don't have any authority over anything, I'm just saying what I would and wouldn't do with my own personal take on the DA. I'm not pretending that I have some kind of "right to allow or forbid anything".

No you're writing nonsense at an alarming rate so I thought you needed some guidance. You have no take on DA, you don't play the army and barely understands its lore.

Does my Tyranid "army" fulfil these? Nope.
My Tyrannic War army has coherence. And even regular "armies" aren't even capable of facing every threat - how well do mono-Harlequins do against mono-Knights?

You cannot even build more than one list with that one unit that GW resurrected for UM. Harlequins have weapons against mono-knights. They won't do well again such army, but skyweavers and voidweavers have weapons designed to face that kind of threat. Something that the tyranid war veteran just cannot do. In fact all the armies that have been quoted - Custodes, Harlequins, etc. - have specific tools to face knight-like threats and all the other kind of threats. It's just that those tools are, sometimes, weak or unsufficient : but they still have those ! Tyrannic war veteran do not, and it's normal because they are not thought as a cookie cutter unit that ultramarines should use to build a list : they are a fluff unit put in the supplement for the lol.

WhiteDog wrote:

Sorry, I wasn't aware that all Dark Angels lists are actually only made up of Deathwing, and that all Deathwing player MUST have to take an Apothecary, Ancient and Champion in their lists!

There are many pure DW players yes. There have been many pure DW players for years. You'd know it if you had some knowledge on the subject.

Yes, I know that, thank you for the condescension. But that's not ALL Dark Angels players, any more so than all Ultramarine players are pure Tyrannic War Vets players (which there are some).

And again, you could just as easily play an all-Terminator army without needing to take an Apothecary. I have an all-Terminator Codex Marine army, but I don't have an Apothecary in it. It's almost like it's not compulsory!

But you know what - that doesn't even matter, because I WANT Dark Angels to have Terminator Apothecaries!

The fact is you just cannot build a non termi ancient for a DA first compagny. The same goes for a Revenwing army, and many play those kind of armies.

As I said, just don't take Apothecaries then. But, as I *also* said, I don't want to take Terminator/Ravewing Apothecaries away from the Dark Angels!

I want to make Terminator Apothecaries generic, just like how everyone else now has Terminator Ancients, because there's no reaso why ONLY Dark Angels should have them. This is where I feel you're not reading my posts - I haven't said anywhere that "Dark Angels shouldn't have Terminator Apothecaries". I said that "everyone should have Terminator Apothecaries".

Don't worry, pure Deathwing players wouldn't lose anything.

Read my posts before you argue against something I never claimed, please.

Calm down a bit, mate. I don't have any authority over anything, I'm just saying what I would and wouldn't do with my own personal take on the DA. I'm not pretending that I have some kind of "right to allow or forbid anything".

No you're writing nonsense at an alarming rate so I thought you needed some guidance. You have no take on DA, you don't play the army and barely understands its lore.

I understand it's lore just fine, and it's incredibly patronising that you think you know more.

I haven't said ANYWHERE that Dark Angels should just suck up and take normal Apothecaries in their Deathwing. I instead said that EVERY CHAPTER should have Terminator Apothecaries, because there's nothing specific about Dark Angels lore that says "they're the only Chapter with Terminator Apothecaries!!", much like how every Chapter now has Terminator Ancients.

Does my Tyranid "army" fulfil these? Nope.
My Tyrannic War army has coherence. And even regular "armies" aren't even capable of facing every threat - how well do mono-Harlequins do against mono-Knights?

You cannot even build more than one list with that one unit that GW resurrected for UM. Harlequins have weapons against mono-knights. They won't do well again such army, but skyweavers and voidweavers have weapons designed to face that kind of threat. Something that the tyranid war veteran just cannot do.

That's why you take other things, because the Ultramarines faction, just like the Dark Angels, isn't just made up of unique units.

Yes, you *can* make an army made up only of unique units, if you wanted, for fluffy reasons, but you don't *have* to. Dark Angels, for all their unique units, still share 85% of their units with Codex: Space Marines.

So, sure, you *could* make an all Deathwing army, just like how you could make an all Tyrannic War army, both for fluffy reasons, but as you said - you have a full Codex to your disposal, and if you care more about being optimised and efficient, you could take units from that. However, in my Tyrannic War Vets case, I didn't want to. I wanted to take those units - and regardless of if it's "effective" or not, it's still an army, just like how a Broodlord and 20 Genestealers are an army, or how a carpet of Conscripts is an army.

It's 8th edition: you can make an army out of whatever you want, effective or not.

In fact all the armies that have been quoted - Custodes, Harlequins, etc. - have specific tools to face knight-like threats and all the other kind of threats. It's just that those tools are, sometimes, weak or unsufficient : but they still have those ! Tyrannic war veteran do not, and it's normal because they are not thought as a cookie cutter unit that ultramarines should use to build a list : they are a fluff unit put in the supplement for the lol.

Doesn't change the fact that I *can* make an army out of them, which is my point.

An army doesn't *have* to be optimised, or specific, or anything like that. An army is just a valid grouping of units that you have collected into a force. If I want to make an army out of Tyrannic War Vets, I will. If I want to make an army out of purely Victrix Guard units, I will.

Also, regarding the whole "tools are weak or insufficient" - we're in 8th Edition, every weapon can wound every target. An army out of even the weakest models most horribly unsuited for the task can still kill anything in the game, on paper.

TL;DR - A valid army can be made out of absolutely anything, so the idea that Dark Angels should have a Codex because they can make an army out of their unique units has absolutely no weight. I can make a valid army out of only Dreadnoughts, but it doesn't mean we need "Codex: Space Marine Dreadnoughts".
A Dark Angels player can make an all Deathwing list just as easily in a supplement. Why do they need a Codex?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Sorry, I wasn't aware that all Dark Angels lists are actually only made up of Deathwing, and that all Deathwing player MUST have to take an Apothecary, Ancient and Champion in their lists!

There are many pure DW players yes. There have been many pure DW players for years. You'd know it if you had some knowledge on the subject.

Yes, I know that, thank you for the condescension. But that's not ALL Dark Angels players, any more so than all Ultramarine players are pure Tyrannic War Vets players (which there are some).

Are you seriously suggesting that there are ultramarine players out there that plays ONLY tyrannic war veterans + characters ? Are we really at that level of hypocrisy ? Everything I am saying, since the beginning, is that the DA have, and have had for a long time now, some specificity and that there are many players that play them as an original army with either a full ravenguard army or a full DW army and that you cannot compare the UM supplement to the DA codex. Your entire argument is based around a false and seriously stupid comparaison. There are no pure tyrannic war vet players : at most some UM players have tyrannic war vet, and that's it.

Calm down a bit, mate. I don't have any authority over anything, I'm just saying what I would and wouldn't do with my own personal take on the DA. I'm not pretending that I have some kind of "right to allow or forbid anything".

No you're writing nonsense at an alarming rate so I thought you needed some guidance. You have no take on DA, you don't play the army and barely understands its lore.

I understand it's lore just fine, and it's incredibly patronising that you think you know more.

I haven't said ANYWHERE that Dark Angels should just suck up and take normal Apothecaries in their Deathwing. I instead said that EVERY CHAPTER should have Terminator Apothecaries, because there's nothing specific about Dark Angels lore that says "they're the only Chapter with Terminator Apothecaries!!", much like how every Chapter now has Terminator Ancients.

You are arguing, with great ignorance as showed in the last hundred posts on this subject, that DA should lose ALL THEIR SPECIFICITY and all their restrictions. It's virtually the same as arguing for the discontinuation of a variety of DA specific units. Do you really think GW would bother producing nephilim jetfighters when they have the same exact tactical role as stormhawk ? That's stupid.

Does my Tyranid "army" fulfil these? Nope.
My Tyrannic War army has coherence. And even regular "armies" aren't even capable of facing every threat - how well do mono-Harlequins do against mono-Knights?

You cannot even build more than one list with that one unit that GW resurrected for UM. Harlequins have weapons against mono-knights. They won't do well again such army, but skyweavers and voidweavers have weapons designed to face that kind of threat. Something that the tyranid war veteran just cannot do.

That's why you take other things, because the Ultramarines faction, just like the Dark Angels, isn't just made up of unique units.

Yes, you *can* make an army made up only of unique units, if you wanted, for fluffy reasons, but you don't *have* to. Dark Angels, for all their unique units, still share 85% of their units with Codex: Space Marines.

No you cannot. Tyranic war vet are marine that survived the tyrannic wars ... No army are entirely comprised of such vet and I assure you even during the tyrannic wars they had many non UM specific unit actually fighting... like tactical marines or devastator... lol
You cannot compare the two, and it baffle me that you still continue with this stupid ass argument. You say that DA players take "other things" because the DA are not just "made up of unique units" : but I just told you many times that there are many players that play Ravenwings only or Deathwings only armies ????

In fact all the armies that have been quoted - Custodes, Harlequins, etc. - have specific tools to face knight-like threats and all the other kind of threats. It's just that those tools are, sometimes, weak or unsufficient : but they still have those ! Tyrannic war veteran do not, and it's normal because they are not thought as a cookie cutter unit that ultramarines should use to build a list : they are a fluff unit put in the supplement for the lol.

An army doesn't *have* to be optimised, or specific, or anything like that. An army is just a valid grouping of units that you have collected into a force. If I want to make an army out of Tyrannic War Vets, I will. If I want to make an army out of purely Victrix Guard units, I will.

Yes they do. An army is a coherent body made of different units with different tactical role. There are no codexes with only one non unique unit for OBVIOUS reasons understood by anyone that's not you.

TL, DR : Just play chess, there's very little diversity in the game and you can create all the fluff you want around the pieces. You can even paint them if you so desire.

Except Vanilla Marines already had said units before or they're actually not unique as proven.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Vanilla Marines already had said units before or they're actually not unique as proven.

Nephilim Jetfighters = not specific to DA ?
Darkshroud = not specific to DA ?
Land Speeder Vengeance = not specific to DA ?
Black Knights = not specific to DA ?
Dark Talon = not specific to DA ?

All those units are specific to the Ravenwing. You can build an army around that, unlike tyranic war vets spam which is not an army. You've proved nothing, aside from a slight hypocrisy and bias in judgement.
Your point about DA/BA/SW being in a supplement would have much more weight if you at least at the decency to acknowledge that the originality of those three chapter is, today, genuine, due to all the units and the lore that GW produced for them since the 2nd ed. By denying that specificity and arguing that nothing they have make sense or legitimate any kind of differenciation from other codex chapters, you just lose all credibility.

WhiteDog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Vanilla Marines already had said units before or they're actually not unique as proven.

Nephilim Jetfighters = not specific to DA ?
Darkshroud = not specific to DA ?
Land Speeder Vengeance = not specific to DA ?
Black Knights = not specific to DA ?
Dark Talon = not specific to DA ?

All those units are specific to the Ravenwing. You can build an army around that, unlike tyranic war vets spam which is not an army. You've proved nothing, aside from a slight hypocrisy and bias in judgement.
Your point about DA/BA/SW being in a supplement would have much more weight if you at least at the decency to acknowledge that the originality of those three chapter is, today, genuine, due to all the units and the lore that GW produced for them since the 2nd ed. By denying that specificity and arguing that nothing they have make sense or legitimate any kind of differenciation from other codex chapters, you just lose all credibility.

The Land Speeder without the defense aura really isn't that unique as FW gave us Land Speeders with heavier weapons than the usual Heavy Bolter and Flamer. The Dark Talon is the same as the Stormtalon due to the weapons all basically sharing the same profile, with the key difference that they have a different +1 to hit modifier. Black Knights aren't even that unique either. You can get the same thing with Combi-Plasma and Power Axes on Command Squads with no unreliable gimmick to do more damage.

I'm sure you're gonna bring up their super special grenade Launcher. LOL like anyone is gonna use that. Removed - BrookM

WhiteDog wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yes, I know that, thank you for the condescension. But that's not ALL Dark Angels players, any more so than all Ultramarine players are pure Tyrannic War Vets players (which there are some).

Are you seriously suggesting that there are ultramarine players out there that plays ONLY tyrannic war veterans + characters ? Are we really at that level of hypocrisy ?

That's not what hypocrisy means, for a start.

And yes, I am. Why? Because I've played those kinds of lists. Things like Guilliman+Victrix Guard, Cassius/Calgar with Tyrannic War Vets. They make for very fun themed games.

Is it my only army, or a list I would show up with to any random game, no. Is it an army though? Yes.

Everything I am saying, since the beginning, is that the DA have, and have had for a long time now, some specificity and that there are many players that play them as an original army with either a full ravenguard army or a full DW army and that you cannot compare the UM supplement to the DA codex.

But yes, I can.

The only difference between the Dark Angels Codex and the various supplements for Space Marines is that the Dark Angels Codex simply reprints 85% of it's material so it can be purchased alone, with the only reason for it being so "because they've always been able to". Times have changed. If I were to combine the Ultramarines supplement and Codex into the same book, it would be functionally identical to the Dark Angels Codex. And, while I don't want that to happen, I'd rather that be the case, and all supplement Chapters got their own Codex, than those three "special"* Chapters having Codexes for no reason other than nostalgia.

*yes, I know they're actually unique and special - but so is every other Chapter.

Your entire argument is based around a false and seriously stupid comparaison.

You're saying that, but you're not telling me *why* it's false.

Dark Angels have unique units. Ultramarines have unique units. Armies can be made out of those units. They have unique lore and rules and heroes. They've always been regarded as "special".

In the current ruleset, what reason do the DA have to not be a supplement, ignoring nostalgia?

There are no pure tyrannic war vet players : at most some UM players have tyrannic war vet, and that's it.

That's a bold claim, and a wrong one. I have a full Tyrannic War Vets force, as I outlined above. I also have other Ultramarine units, but I don't field them when I play my "Tyrannic War Vets" army, just like how I don't take my 5th Company Marines when I'm playing my 2nd Company army.

Please, try again.

I understand it's lore just fine, and it's incredibly patronising that you think you know more.

I haven't said ANYWHERE that Dark Angels should just suck up and take normal Apothecaries in their Deathwing. I instead said that EVERY CHAPTER should have Terminator Apothecaries, because there's nothing specific about Dark Angels lore that says "they're the only Chapter with Terminator Apothecaries!!", much like how every Chapter now has Terminator Ancients.

You are arguing, with great ignorance as showed in the last hundred posts on this subject, that DA should lose ALL THEIR SPECIFICITY and all their restrictions.

No, they don't. I've always advocated for DA to keep certain unique units (Deathwing Knights, Black Knights, Nephilim, etc etc) because they have no easy equivalent, as well as later agreeing that certain units could remain inaccessible (Sternguard and Vanguard Vets). It's the units that could easily just be made mechanically identical despite using generic datasheets (regular Terminators and Bikes) and units that neither you or anyone else has provided as reason NOT to be available (Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, etc etc).

Dark Angels should be unique units, but that doesn't mean they should have a full codex any more than the Ultramarines should.

It's virtually the same as arguing for the discontinuation of a variety of DA specific units. Do you really think GW would bother producing nephilim jetfighters when they have the same exact tactical role as stormhawk ? That's stupid.

The reason GW continue to produce them is because A) They already sell them and have rules for them, and B ) Because they wish to artificially create differences between the two factions.

In their own lore, there is no reason the Dark Angels shouldn't have both Nephilim and Stormhawks. And before you say it, no, I don't want Nephilim to be available to other Chapters, it's fine being unique.

That's why you take other things, because the Ultramarines faction, just like the Dark Angels, isn't just made up of unique units.

Yes, you *can* make an army made up only of unique units, if you wanted, for fluffy reasons, but you don't *have* to. Dark Angels, for all their unique units, still share 85% of their units with Codex: Space Marines.

No you cannot. Tyranic war vet are marine that survived the tyrannic wars ... No army are entirely comprised of such vet

Disproven by my very existence. Don't make blanket claims you can't prove.

and I assure you even during the tyrannic wars they had many non UM specific unit actually fighting... like tactical marines or devastator... lol

But they're not always deployed together in the aftermath. That's like saying "you can't take Dark Angels army without a Tactical Squad, they have Tactical Squads in XYZ Random Battle!!"
There's more than enough room and scope in 40k for a battle to have taken place where only Tyrannic Wars Veterans were deployed. Like specifically anti-Tyranid missions, for example. "Chaplain Cassius, vengeful and ever-vigilant against the threat of the Tyranids, leading an elite strikeforce of his most trusted specialists to wipe out a tendril of the Devourer."
There we are, a fluffy reason for a mono-Tyrannic War force.

The Tyrannic Wars aren't the ONLY time Tyrannic War Veterans were deployed.

You cannot compare the two, and it baffle me that you still continue with this stupid ass argument.

You're saying that, but you're not explaining how.

You say that DA players take "other things" because the DA are not just "made up of unique units" : but I just told you many times that there are many players that play Ravenwings only or Deathwings only armies ????

Yes, there are, I didn't deny that for a second. The thing you're oblivious to is that that's not special any more. With the changes to the Force Organisation Charts, there's also people who play all Dreadnought lists, and all Terminator Imperial Fist lists, and all Tyrannic War lists, and all mounted lists. Should they all have unique Codexes now?

No! If you want an all-XYZ list, you can do it with a generic Codex!

Yes they do. An army is a coherent body made of different units with different tactical role.

Not true - are the forces in box sets like Shadowspear or Blood of the Phoenix not armies then?

A 40k army is a collection of units. They don't have to be specialised, they don't need to be capable of taking on anything that comes in their way. The baseline requirement for an army is that it is made up of at least two or more different units (and even then, I'd still call two Knights an army in their own right).

You're coming up with definitions for "armies" that would disqualify forces that GW themselves have called armies. In that light, I reject your definition.

There are no codexes with only one non unique unit for OBVIOUS reasons understood by anyone that's not you.

Good thing that if they Ultramarines were arranged in a Codex like Dark Angels are now, they'd have many non-unique units, and even several unique ones (Honour Guard, Victrix Honour Guard, and Tyrannic War Vets).

TL, DR : Just play chess, there's very little diversity in the game and you can create all the fluff you want around the pieces. You can even paint them if you so desire.

Congratulations for completely missing my argument. Would you like a cookie?*

And you say that I wasn't using my brain.

*that's sarcasm, if you couldn't tell. I would advise you actually read my argument and know what my points are, instead of making up things I've said or claim to want to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Vanilla Marines already had said units before or they're actually not unique as proven.

Nephilim Jetfighters = not specific to DA ?
Darkshroud = not specific to DA ?
Land Speeder Vengeance = not specific to DA ?
Black Knights = not specific to DA ?
Dark Talon = not specific to DA ?

All those units are specific to the Ravenwing.

Yes, something I'd want to keep specific to them.

You can build an army around that

buUt wHeRe Are ThE tROoPS?? Otherwise it's not fulfilling the roles of "proper" army!!

Obviously, that's a stupid take. They don't need to be capable of covering every role to be a valid army.

unlike tyranic war vets spam which is not an army.

Again, wrong. Your definition of "army" is simply not correct.

If I took 1000 points of only Termagants, is that not an army?

Your point about DA/BA/SW being in a supplement would have much more weight if you at least at the decency to acknowledge that the originality of those three chapter is, today, genuine, due to all the units and the lore that GW produced for them since the 2nd ed.

Yes, those three Chapters are original. Unfortunately, nowadays, so is everyone else.

They're different from other Chapters, in so much as Ultramarines are unique from every other Chapter. Therefore, there is no reason why either every Chapter should have their own Codex (not ideal), or everyone should have their own supplement (ideal).

Surely you're not so superficial that you think that Dark Angels wouldn't be the Most Super Duper Special Chapter if they *gasp* had to share the same book as those Filthy Peasant Codex Marines? Regardless of if their rules were in a supplement or Codex, if it's their lore and unique units that make them so special, it really wouldn't matter at all.

Well...

Slayer,

I am not avoiding your question - I said that a rising tide raises all boats. The Warhammer World teaser for CA19 mentions that "Chapter Approved gives the Dark Angels an update in line with their Codex-adherent kin." (So it turns out that the Dark Angels are not Codex-adherent). So perhaps they will received doctrines. I think that the DA should have a form of doctrines. I have never argued that they are completely different from the baseline chapters. We already share certain basic rules/concepts such as ATSKNF, Shock Assault and the Better Bolter Rules. I guess we'll see what either CA19 and/or Psychic Awakening bring the Dark Angels. If our weapons do less damage then I will indeed cry into my gruel on the Rock. Guess I'll have to decide if I keep playing them. The good news is that you don't need to if you don't want to. Free will is a good thing.

Flandarz,

Is your argument against the Dark Angels being distinct really based on paper usage? Heck, the current method saves paper if that's what your concern is. I only buy one book with no ink spent on datasheets that I cannot use. Boom. Environment saved. I am a little confused about your humanity analogy as I am not a biologist/geneticist. I am genuinely not sure what you are trying to say. Hair colour is cosmetic at the end of the day. If we changed a given animals DNA to be 15% different (going from your 85% number) then I imagine they would no longer be the same species. Anyhoo. We are talking about fictional factions and not about real people.

Sgt Smudge,

My argument is that having the Dark Angels as their own force/army/Codex brings variety to the game without causing undue harm. Part of that variety comes from the unique units and loss of access to other mainstream units. A Dark Angels player has two unique flyers and looses access to the other Space Marine ones. We have two unique Landspeeders. We have unique RW and DW Elites characters, never mind the two HQ choices. We have our DW Knights and our RW Knights. We lose access to a number of other units, and not just named characters. All of this makes a Dark Angels army look, feel and play different than a Codex-adherent chapter. Its a much different feel that two or three named characters. Again, lets park your design methodology of a supplement that only prints unique stuff and tells you what you can't take from the other book you would then have to buy. Nevermind Stratagem hoops that you want players to jump through to create what already exists in a more elegant design.

I am arguing the "what" while you seem to be mostly arguing about the "how." As a result we are often talking past each other. If you do not agree that the Dark Angels should be a distinct Chapter (the "what"), then we will certainly not agree on the "how" of their portrayal. I think I get that we are just two gamers/hobbyists talking across the Atlantic about a shared game system. We don't need to agree with each other. My point, though, is that the current method works and causes minimal harm while your method would be more complicated and would indeed cause harm to existing players. To allow me to at least fully understand where we differ, do you think that the Dark Angels should be a distinct force/army?

Warm regards,

T2B

ps - I am at a remote location during the week, so if I do not reply to someone promptly please do not think that I am being rude (for what it matters).

Obviously, that's a stupid take. They don't need to be capable of covering every role to be a valid army.

It's not a question of "role" as in troop/elite/fastattack/etc. but rather tactical role within the army. i.e. an army needs to have "something" to manage troops, mass, heavy units, etc. You can do all that with the above. Ravenwing, in previous edition, use to have an ability that permitted them to make bike units troops : it was made in order to permit full ravenwing armies (same for terminators for DW).
In this edition, it is not necessary, but it doesn't change the fact that a full ravenwing army can have a variety of units to face all type of challenge and thus is playable, unlike a complete tyrannic war vet.
But only a non hypocrite, slightly balanced and unbiased individual could agree with that simple fact.

The Land Speeder without the defense aura really isn't that unique as FW gave us Land Speeders with heavier weapons than the usual Heavy Bolter and Flamer. The Dark Talon is the same as the Stormtalon due to the weapons all basically sharing the same profile, with the key difference that they have a different +1 to hit modifier. Black Knights aren't even that unique either. You can get the same thing with Combi-Plasma and Power Axes on Command Squads with no unreliable gimmick to do more damage.

FW also have a heavy tank for SM similar to the guard heavies : let's "consolidate" those astra militarum and SM then since they have similar units with similar roles. After all, the dichotomy between scout and tactical squad basically mimic guardsmen and tempestus scions do they not ? ... Removed - Rule #1 please

WhiteDog wrote:

Obviously, that's a stupid take. They don't need to be capable of covering every role to be a valid army.

That's a stupid comment as usual. It's not a question of "role" as in troop/elite/fastattack/etc. but rather tactical role within the army. i.e. an army needs to have "something" to manage troops, mass, heavy units, etc. You can do all that with the above. Ravenwing, in previous edition, use to have an ability that permitted them to make bike units troops : it was made in order to permit full ravenwing armies (same for terminators for DW).
In this edition, it is not necessary, but it doesn't change the fact that a full ravenwing army can have a variety of units to face all type of challenge and thus is playable, unlike a complete tyrannic war vet.
But only a non hypocrite, slightly balanced and unbiased individual could agree with that simple fact.

Because no one ever plays themed, fun forces that aren't necessarily bleeding-edge competitive!

 JNAProductions wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Obviously, that's a stupid take. They don't need to be capable of covering every role to be a valid army.

That's a stupid comment as usual. It's not a question of "role" as in troop/elite/fastattack/etc. but rather tactical role within the army. i.e. an army needs to have "something" to manage troops, mass, heavy units, etc. You can do all that with the above. Ravenwing, in previous edition, use to have an ability that permitted them to make bike units troops : it was made in order to permit full ravenwing armies (same for terminators for DW).
In this edition, it is not necessary, but it doesn't change the fact that a full ravenwing army can have a variety of units to face all type of challenge and thus is playable, unlike a complete tyrannic war vet.
But only a non hypocrite, slightly balanced and unbiased individual could agree with that simple fact.

Because no one ever plays themed, fun forces that aren't necessarily bleeding-edge competitive!

Who would play entirely tyrannic war vet army ? It's not theme, it's nonsensical. From a fluff point of view tyrannic war vet are the remain of the defender of ultramar during the tyrannic wars : they are veterans that engage in very specific fight against the tyrannids, shoulder to shoulder with non tyrannic war vets. A themed army around them would give them an important tactical role in a scenario where tyrannids invade a planet or something, not as an army full of them in matched play.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
"Chaplain Cassius, vengeful and ever-vigilant against the threat of the Tyranids, leading an elite strikeforce of his most trusted specialists to wipe out a tendril of the Devourer."
There we are, a fluffy reason for a mono-Tyrannic War force.

See above.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My argument is that having the Dark Angels as their own force/army/Codex brings variety to the game without causing undue harm.

My argument is that this variety can be brought to the game without needing a full Codex. If I were to cut out the 85% of generic units in the Dark Angels 'Codex', and add in about single page of rules explaining how generic Bikes and Land Speeders could gain Ravenwing rules, and how Terminators could gain Deathwing rules, as well as not being able to use <Vanguard Veteran> or <Sternguard Veteran> datasheets (still not convinced on why they can't have Thunderfire Cannons and Centurions), it would be functionally the same as a supplement.

Part of that variety comes from the unique units and loss of access to other mainstream units.

Whereas I don't think that Dark Angels need to lose access to anything to have variety, especially when there's no in-universe justification for *why* they don't have certain things.

Ultramarines have variety. Imperial Fists have variety. Black Templars have variety. They don't need Codexes to do that.

All of this makes a Dark Angels army look, feel and play different than a Codex-adherent chapter.

But do they? Do they play massively differently?

In previous editions, yes - they were the only Chapter capable of having so many Terminators and Bikes/Land Speeders. That's not the case any more.

And yes, they have their unique units and abilities, but they don't play so much more different to Ultramarines than Ultramarines do to Iron Hands and Raven Guard. When the supplements alone have just as many different looks, feels and different play mechanics from eachother as full Codexes do, do you not consider that the same variety could be provided via those supplements?

I am arguing the "what" while you seem to be mostly arguing about the "how." As a result we are often talking past each other. If you do not agree that the Dark Angels should be a distinct Chapter (the "what"), then we will certainly not agree on the "how" of their portrayal.

The problem doesn't seem to be the what. We both agree that the Dark Angels should be a distinct Chapter. The thing I don't think you're seeing is that the "Codex" Chapters are also distinct, and I'm getting the impression that you're treating them like they were in 5th edition and such, when there were no mechanical differences between how you painted your guys. That's not the case any more. The supplements have provided so much flavour and variety in how a Chapter fights that they're all distinct.

It's not that the Dark Angels aren't distinct. It's that everyone is now distinct in their own right.
Think of it as something like a gifted-and-talented group, which starts off as one person. They're talented beyond the average ability of their classmates. Then, they're joined by other people who are also talented beyond the average ability of their classmates. It doesn't mean the first person is any less talented, it just means that there's other people who are just as talented.

I think I get that we are just two gamers/hobbyists talking across the Atlantic about a shared game system. We don't need to agree with each other. My point, though, is that the current method works and causes minimal harm while your method would be more complicated and would indeed cause harm to existing players.

Whereas for me, my approach makes it a lot easier for someone to collect Space Marines (because no matter what Chapter you eventually end up deciding on playing, you're nearly always using the same core units), and ensures that wide changes to the core Space Marine profile (things like Angels of Death and Bolter Discipline) can be amended in one book, instead of one book and three FAQs.

Both methods work (supplements have also proven to be fine for people to use), but it's a question why there needs to be two methods. Either everyone should have Codexes, or everyone should have supplements. Plus, it's no more harmful to existing players than it would be for any kind of edition change or update.

To allow me to at least fully understand where we differ, do you think that the Dark Angels should be a distinct force/army?

Yes, I do - in as much as any First Founder is a distinct force/army compared to other Chapters (which I believe they currently are, in supplement form). However, I believe that this can be done without them needing to be a full fledged Codex. They can be distinct just like how Ultramarines are distinct.

ps - I am at a remote location during the week, so if I do not reply to someone promptly please do not think that I am being rude (for what it matters).

Hope you enjoy yourself!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:It's not a question of "role" as in troop/elite/fastattack/etc. but rather tactical role within the army. i.e. an army needs to have "something" to manage troops, mass, heavy units, etc.

Ah yes, because every single army ever made was completely capable of taking on every threat and asymmetrical battles were never a thing!

Oh, no, that's not true at all though.

But only a non hypocrite, slightly balanced and unbiased individual could agree with that simple fact.

Firstly, I suggest you actually read a dictionary, because you're not using the correct definition of hypocrite.

Secondly, I'm reporting that as rule 1. You've not been able to "prove" a single fact you're claiming, and being incredibly dismissive, condescending, and generally insulting.

Who would play entirely tyrannic war vet army ?

Me, because it's fluffy, and it's cool.

It's not theme, it's nonsensical.

According to you.

From a fluff point of view tyrannic war vet are the remain of the defender of ultramar during the tyrannic wars : they are veterans that engage in very specific fight against the tyrannids, shoulder to shoulder with non tyrannic war vets. A themed army around them would give them an important tactical role in a scenario where tyrannids invade a planet or something, not as an army full of them in matched play.

For someone who claimed to know so much about the lore, you don't seem to know what the Tyrannic War Veterans were, or what they still do.

They're both made up of the Veterans of the Tyrannic Wars, as well as those trained by those initial veterans to more expertly combat the Tyranid menace in the years since. As a result, there are many "Tyrannic War Veterans" who never actually fought in the Tyrannic Wars. Calgar specifically gave Chaplain Cassius his own authority to train up and deploy his own unique cadre of Tyranid hunters. There's no lore that says "they only fight in support of their non-specialised brethren", and prior formations in previous editions explicitly had mono-Tyrannic War formations, indicating that, yes, they did deploy independently.

As I said above, it's completely fluffy for something like "Cassius leading an elite team of Tyrannic War Veterans to hunt down and kill a Tyranid Leader Beast, not wishing to risk the lives of less experienced Ultramarines on this critical mission".

This discussion is nonsensical. You're just digging yourself a hole trying to argue that a tyranic war vet army in itself without any sort of non tyranic war vet unit is valid fluff wise.

From the UM supplement codex (p. 47) :
"It was during a time of immense hardship that the Tyrannic War Veterans took their place in the Ultramarines Chapter. The Battle for Macragge saw their entire 1st Company slain, and it was Chaplain Cassius’ vision that its rebuilding should
begin by assembling veterans of that terrible war so as to harness the hard-won lessons of the conflict. [...]
After months, the Conclave of Hera concluded when the Tyranids attacked the Cardinal world of Espandor. Calgar decreed that the new body of warriors be formed to combat this threat. In that battle, and countless conflicts since, the Tyrannic War Veterans proved their worth, fighting Tyranid invasions at Brettik V, Jomm, Ichar IV and Saint Tylus, among many others. The Codex itself was amended to allow for their role. [...]
The fighting over Saint Tylus against a splinter of Hive Fleet Ouroboris saw the infiltration of a vast bio-ship by the Tyrannic War Veterans. The first of its kind identified, this abomination was observed to be crafting fresh waves of living warships within a vast cradle of chitinous talons, then spewing them forth to overwhelm the system’s defence craft. Knowing a threat of this magnitude had to be annihilated, Chaplain Cassius, in partnership with an entire Deathwatch company from Fort Excalibris, led dozens of Tyrannic War Veterans in a desperate mission to board the spawn-ship and destroy it from within."

So here you have it : tyrannic war vet are veteran from the tyrannic war that function as a specific unit that fulfill of a specific role. It is not an army, but a small unit (similar to a kill team) deployed to support others in the fight against tyranids.

You are right that tyranic war vet still recruit marines that are not survivors from the tyranic wars, in order to pass on their experience, but that doesn't change anything I've said.

Secondly, I'm reporting that as rule 1. You've not been able to "prove" a single fact you're claiming, and being incredibly dismissive, condescending, and generally insulting.

Turns out I do in fact prove what I say, while you don't.

Those extracts literally said nothing though? All those extracts said were "Tyrannic War Veterans were made up of veterans of the battle of Macragge, which were made into their own unique role within the Chapter".

I mean, there's literally one you've just quoting saying that Cassius leads a small army of Tyrannic War Veterans! There's nothing that says they need to support others, only that they sometimes do, and other times don't. What, are you going to claim that all Terminator armies in other Chapters don't exist because they're usually deployed as support options? No, because that's simply not true.

There's just as much lore reason for a pure TWV army as there is for any other highly specialised force.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Those extracts literally said nothing though? All those extracts said were "Tyrannic War Veterans were made up of veterans of the battle of Macragge, which were made into their own unique role within the Chapter".

I mean, there's literally one you've just quoting saying that Cassius leads a small army of Tyrannic War Veterans! There's nothing that says they need to support others, only that they sometimes do, and other times don't. What, are you going to claim that all Terminator armies in other Chapters don't exist because they're usually deployed as support options? No, because that's simply not true.

There's just as much lore reason for a pure TWV army as there is for any other highly specialised force.

It specifically says that tyranic war vet is a "role" within the codex, and that the biggest most fierce squad of the tyranic war vet accounted to "dozens" of tyranic war vet helping a complete deathwatch compagny. So they are not an army.
It's like saying it is fluff to build an army of devastator ... Come on ...

WhiteDog wrote:
It specifically says that tyranic war vet is a "role" within the codex, and that the biggest most fierce squad of the tyranic war vet accounted to "dozens" of tyranic war vet helping a complete deathwatch compagny. So they are not an army.

Deathwing is a "role", that role being to hunt down the Fallen. It doesn't stop them deploying as an army in their own respect.

Again, I feel you need to review your definition of an "army".

It's like saying it is fluff to build an army of devastator ... Come on ...

... I don't know how to tell you this, but the 9th Company exists, and, despite being a reserve company, has been known to deploy on it's own (see - Vigilus).

So, yeah. All Devastator armies are absolutely a fluffy thing. I'm building one for my homebrew Chapter as we speak, actually.

No deathwing is a compagny. Deathwing Knights have a role within that compagny, next to DW terminators, apothecary, ancient, champion, land raiders, dreadnoughts...

The 9th compagny is not full of devastator lol. The 9th compagny is a compagny full of heavy support units - devastator, hellblaster, eliminator, and "many long ranged marksmen" (i.e. scouts - dixit ultramarine supplement). Plus they are not supposed to function alone but as a support to a non-reserve compagny : they do not take the field as a complete "army".

WhiteDog wrote:
No deathwing is a compagny. Deathwing Knights have a role within that compagny, next to DW terminators, apothecary, ancient, champion, land raiders, dreadnoughts...

The latter two units which aren't Dark Angels unique units, eh? So much for "Dark Angel units make up an army unto themselves!"*

And I was talking about the Deathwing Terminators as a whole, not just the Knights. I never actually mentioned Knights once, in fact.

*which is true, but I find it amusing that you list generic units to prove your point that "Dark Angels don't need generic units to make an army".

The 9th compagny is not full of devastator lol. The 9th compagny is a compagny full of heavy support units - devastator, hellblaster, eliminator, and "many long ranged marksmen" (i.e. scouts - dixit ultramarine supplement). Plus they are not supposed to function alone but as a support to a non-reserve compagny : they do not take the field as a complete "army".

The 9th Company can be fielded as all Devastator, should it choose to. It did before the introduction of Centurions (which aren't compulsory, and aren't actually attached to Companies, they're actually part of the Chapter armoury, like Rhinos and Razorbacks), and did before Primaris were ever a thing. Look in the 5th Edition breakdown of the Ultramarines Chapter, and see for yourself.

They *can* take all the other fire support units, but are equally able to take purely Devastators.

And no, they do take to the field as a complete army in their own respect. See Vigilus, where half of the Ninth Company are deployed alone on defence of the Aquilarian Palace.
Just because they're a reserve company doesn't mean for a second that they only deploy that way. While their *main* purpose is in this regard, it is far from their only calling.

You know who else use land raiders and dreadnought but is not a codex compliant SM army ? Custodes ... So we are back to square one : DA is similar to Custodes in terms of unique entry.
Lol all this talk because you cannot agree that you were wrong about tyrannid war vet. Somewhere in the vast fluff you will find an anecdote to defend your dream of a full tyrannic war vet army.

My 3rd ed SM codex is in the basement but I'm so tempted to dig it just for the fun.

WhiteDog wrote:
You know who else use land raiders and dreadnought but is not a codex compliant SM army ? Custodes

Custodes aren't Space Marines.

DA is similar to Custodes in terms of unique entry.

Custodes don't share 85% of their units with regular Space Marines. They're just as related to Space Marines as Sisters of Battle are. Which, just to clarify, are not Space Marines.

you cannot agree that you were wrong about tyrannid war vet.

Why would I agree that I was wrong on something that I was right about?

Somewhere in the vast fluff you will find an anecdote to defend your dream of a full tyrannic war vet army.

Exactly - so why on earth would you make the ridiculous claim that both Tyrannic War Veterans never deploy solo, and that no-one has ever played that army (hint, you're wrong about that one too, and I've not heard you concede that. )

WhiteDog wrote:
You know who else use land raiders and dreadnought but is not a codex compliant SM army ? Custodes ... So we are back to square one : DA is similar to Custodes in terms of unique entry.
Lol all this talk because you cannot agree that you were wrong about tyrannid war vet.

DA and Custodes have one, maybe two units in common. (Land Raiders and possibly the Dread.)

DA and Codex Marines have...

Chaplains
Librarians
Lieutenants
Captains (renamed Masters in DA, but to my knowledge they're otherwise the exact same-please correct me if I'm wrong)
Techmarines
Incursors
Infilitrators
Intercessors
Tacticals
Scouts
Agressors
Apothecaries
Dreadnoughts
Invictors
Reivers
Servitors
Assault Squads
Inceptors
Suppressors
Eliminators
Hellblasters
Hunters
Land Raiders
Predators
Stalkers
Vindicators
Whirlwinds
Drop Pods
Impulsors
Land Speeder Storms
Razorbacks
Repulsors
Rhinos

Note that several of those units (Dreadnoughts, Librarians, etc.) are actually many different units just lumped under one name.

 JNAProductions wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You know who else use land raiders and dreadnought but is not a codex compliant SM army ? Custodes ... So we are back to square one : DA is similar to Custodes in terms of unique entry.
Lol all this talk because you cannot agree that you were wrong about tyrannid war vet.

DA and Custodes have one, maybe two units in common. (Land Raiders and possibly the Dread.)

DA and Codex Marines have...

Chaplains
Librarians
Lieutenants
Captains (renamed Masters in DA, but to my knowledge they're otherwise the exact same-please correct me if I'm wrong)
Techmarines
Incursors
Infilitrators
Intercessors
Tacticals
Scouts
Agressors
Apothecaries
Dreadnoughts
Invictors
Reivers
Servitors
Assault Squads
Inceptors
Suppressors
Eliminators
Hellblasters
Hunters
Land Raiders
Predators
Stalkers
Vindicators
Whirlwinds
Drop Pods
Impulsors
Land Speeder Storms
Razorbacks
Repulsors
Rhinos

Note that several of those units (Dreadnoughts, Librarians, etc.) are actually many different units just lumped under one name.

Yes. And DA and Custodes have the same number of unique units in comparaison to the SM codex. Let's consolidate all that to simplify.

Smudge don't even understands what's written in the UM codex... what can I say.

WhiteDog wrote:
Yes. And DA and Custodes have the same number of unique units in comparaison to the SM codex. Let's consolidate all that to simplify.

Custodes share, at most, less than 20% of their Dex with Marines. (Way the hell less if you include Forgeworld.)

What percentage do Dark Angels share?

 JNAProductions wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
You know who else use land raiders and dreadnought but is not a codex compliant SM army ? Custodes ... So we are back to square one : DA is similar to Custodes in terms of unique entry.
Lol all this talk because you cannot agree that you were wrong about tyrannid war vet.

DA and Custodes have one, maybe two units in common. (Land Raiders and possibly the Dread.)

DA and Codex Marines have...

Spoiler:

Chaplains
Librarians
Lieutenants
Captains (renamed Masters in DA, but to my knowledge they're otherwise the exact same-please correct me if I'm wrong)
Techmarines
Incursors
Infilitrators
Intercessors
Tacticals
Scouts
Agressors
Apothecaries
Dreadnoughts
Invictors
Reivers
Servitors
Assault Squads
Inceptors
Suppressors
Eliminators
Hellblasters
Hunters
Land Raiders
Predators
Stalkers
Vindicators
Whirlwinds
Drop Pods
Impulsors
Land Speeder Storms
Razorbacks
Repulsors
Rhinos

Note that several of those units (Dreadnoughts, Librarians, etc.) are actually many different units just lumped under one name.

There's actually even more than that! Units like the "basic" Ravenwing Bikes and Land Speeder entries are only one special rule away from being exactly like normal Bikes and Land Speeders. And that's not to mention the fact that all White Scars Bikes have their own special rule, essentially making them just as unique as Ravenwing Bikers!
Then, units like Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators are essentially identical to their Codex equivalents, only with a single unique rule added (which could, just like the White Scars bike ability, be added as part of their Chapter Tactic!)

 JNAProductions wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
Yes. And DA and Custodes have the same number of unique units in comparaison to the SM codex. Let's consolidate all that to simplify.

Custodes share, at most, less than 20% of their Dex with Marines. (Way the hell less if you include Forgeworld.)

What percentage do Dark Angels share?

You are totally right I'm caricaturing Smudge. I was arguing that the DW is an original company that can be fielded as an original army. He responded that to function they have to use SM units like the land raider and dreadnought which is the exact same situation as Custodes. I'm pointing that out to show that his critic has no sense : the DW reliance on those two units do not makes them less original, which should be obvious for anyone but smudge who can't seems to understand anything.

It really doesn't seem like you understand his argument.

If you are just trolling, I'd recommend making a post that explains what his position actually is, to demonstrate that you understand.