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 JNAProductions wrote:
It really doesn't seem like you understand his argument.

If you are just trolling, I'd recommend making a post that explains what his position actually is, to demonstrate that you understand.

To me it seems like you guys are completly drenched in your own certainty that you can't even understand the point of the discussion. I do not need to demonstrate anything to someone who isn't even able to understand the difference between the DeathWing and tyrannic war vet. But, out of love for the spirit of the forum, and for the last time, I'll try to give you a good understanding of the topic at hand and after that I will leave you and your band into your own nonsensical arguments.

Smudge and his crew believe that DA/SW/BA should be consolidated in the SM codex and that their specificities should be in a codex supplement (like it was the case in the 3rd ed.) because they share many units with SM (which is totally true and valid). They add that it doesn't make sense for DA/SW/BA to have restrictions and that they should have access to the entire SM codex (this is a big problem of their argument) and all the units that makes them original should be shared with other SM chapters, aside from a few units that should be available via CP upgrades or unique entry in a codex supplement.
The problem is that to defend their argument they are trying to minimize the originality of those three non SM codex chapters. One totally absurd exemple of that is Smudge argument that, somehow, tyranic war vet can exist as a single (and original) army for ultramarines similar to a DW army or a RW army. One other exemple is the fact that Smudge somehow believe that the number of army specific unit that the UM have is comparable to what the DA have, which is absurd (to do this absurd task he is counting all unique characters and totally disregarding everything that makes RW/DW special).

What I get from all that can be summarize in a few points :
- first point is that, while the number of datasheet that DA have in common with SM is important, they also have a significant number of datasheet that are different from SM and that due to that significant number they cannot be compared to other codex compliant SM chapters, something Smudge and his crew are unable to get/contredict (it's not 3rd ed anymore ...). They are constantly trying to downplay DA/SW/BA specificity (as seen by Slayer's pityful comment on FW landspeeders/sanguinary priest, or Smudge arguments about tyrannic war vet). A coherent argumentation for that consolidation should start with acknowledging the specificities of those non codex chapters and thinking about ways to make it so that those chapters keep what makes their identity in the new frame they desire ;

- second point is that the consolidation they so desire, and specifically the end of all restrictions, would logically mean the discontinuation (and thus the loss of diversity) of many non-SM codex units, such as the nephilim jetfighter, because those units have the same tactical role as their SM only counterpart. They are arguing for DA to go back three ed in the past to gain nothing, or almost nothing ;

- third point is that overall their argument does not value diversity and is based around a flawed, subjective understanding of the game. They view simplification as the apex value, while others (most consumers actually according to econ theory) might value diversity and opportunity of choices above simplification. As such their arguments lack objectivity and cannot be taken seriously. For exemple Slayer and others are constantly arguing that X chapter specific unit is virtually the same as Y non chapter specific units (FW landspeeder), or that there are no reason as to why those units are specific to Z chapters - but two units that are relatively close in design (Nephilim vs Stormhawk) are not complete substitute but rather imperfect substitute and as such offer increased diversity out of minimal imbalance/differencies, something that should be valued (and is obviously valued by GW) ;

- finally, I want to add that everything they wish for is actually going in the exact opposite direction in regards to what GW is doing. GW is doing everything it can to diversify and distinguish factions from each others : one of the best exemple of that is the dévelopment of CSM factions and units that are getting more and more different from their SM counterpart (see the rise of deamon engine, the evolution of havocs, etc.). The new SM codex supplements are another exemple of that : rather than consolidating everything in a codex (with an inflation in the number of pages), they are adding diversity to accomodate players' desires. The return of tyrannic war vet. is actually an exemple of that. In fact, all SM first founding chapters (aside from SW/BA/DA) are now in the same situation that the DA/BA/SW were in the 3rd edition of the game and we can believe that in the few years to come those chapters will differentiate themselves more and more.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It really doesn't seem like you understand his argument.

If you are just trolling, I'd recommend making a post that explains what his position actually is, to demonstrate that you understand.

I too would like to see this, because it honestly looks like they don't understand my points at all, and instead settle on being as condescending as possible to compensate.

Dark Angels, including Deathwing and Ravenwing, are a unique force, but they don't need a Codex in order to be unique. The exact same mechanical effects and theme of their uniqueness can be just as easily implemented via a supplement, saving out on the need to republish the same 85% of units, which function identically to their counterparts in the core Codex.

The measure by which a faction is unique is in their lore and mechanics, not in the arbitrary matter of if they have a Codex or not. Or, to put it another way - "A rose; By any other name would smell as sweet."

WhiteDog wrote:
To me it seems like you guys are completly drenched in your own certainty that you can't even understand the point of the discussion.

WhiteDog, at the risk of sounding self-concieted, it a discussion of my proposal that I offered several pages back we're discussing here.

Implying that you know the discussion of my own thoughts and opinions better than I do is a tad arrogant.

I do not need to demonstrate anything to someone who isn't even able to understand the difference between the DeathWing and tyrannic war vet.

At the most simple level, they're both unique cadres within their respective Chapters. I'm not denying that they have their own niches and specialisms, but on the core level, they're not exactly opposites.

Smudge and his crew

Oooh, I have a "crew" now! Did I pay them to support my arguments? Do I lead a masked gang of forum users who go around and beat Dark Angels fans into the dirt?

You'd also know that my first post in this thread was actually disagreeing with someone who also supported consolidating units, because I disapproved of their inflammatory language. If I truly had this "crew", do you think I'd oppose someone who agreed with my overall viewpoint?

believe that DA/SW/BA should be consolidated in the SM codex and that their specificities should be in a codex supplement (like it was the case in the 3rd ed.) because they share many units with SM (which is totally true and valid). They add that it doesn't make sense for DA to have restrictions and that they should have access to the entire SM codex (this is a big problem of their arguments) and all the units that makes them original should be shared with other SM chapters, aside from a few units that should be available via CP upgrades or unique entry in a codex supplement.

Not quite. I freely conceded that *certain* units (Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans) could be kept locked off from Dark Angels lists. It was units that had no reason in lore (which is what I'm basing my interpretation of what I want DA to function like) not to be in the Dark Angels' arsenal, like Thunderfire Cannons and Centurions, that I had grievance with.

Dark Angels don't need restrictions to be unique. Cadians and Catachans are about as unique from eachother as you can get, lorewise, but they don't need restrictions to do that.
Similarly, I don't think that Dark Angels suddenly getting access to Centurions and Thunderfire Cannons would change anything about their core identity.

If Dark Angels, somehow, didn't have any Primaris Marines (ignoring that this would be nearly impossible to do with Guilliman being in the position he's in), then I could actually support this idea of them being completely separate - throw in a lore reason why they don't have Primaris, and that then creates a VERY big gameplay and mechanical variety between the Dark Angels and every other Chapter. But saying they're totally unique because they don't have Centurions and Thunderfire Cannons? That's not exactly very important, is it?

I mean, would you call Raven Guard a totally unique Chapter if they didn't have Vindicators and Predators, but actually had Hawkclaw Ravenbombers? I wouldn't.

The problem is that to defend their argument they are trying to minimize the originality of those three non SM codex chapters.

Not at all. They can still be original without needing a Codex.

One totally absurd exemple of that is Smudge argument that, somehow, tyranic war vet can exist as a single (and original) army for ultramarines similar to a DW army or a RW army.

They can be taken as an army unto their own right, in the same way an Iron Hands player could take a whole army of Dreadnoughts or an Imperial Fist players with loads of Centurions.

The fundamental element is that Deathwing/Ravenwing don't NEED a Codex to be represented. They could have all their unique units added in via supplement. Having those units come from a Codex or supplement is utterly irrelevant.

One other exemple is the fact that Smudge somehow believe that the number of army specific unit that the UM have is comparable to what the DA have, which is absurd (to do this absurd task he is counting all unique characters and totally disregarding everything that makes RW/DW special).

Unique characters *are* Chapter specific units though.

And again, you mention "what makes the RW/DW special" - what does make them special?
I'll go through a list, and explain why those things are either irrelevant, or can be added into a supplement:
- Can deploy en masse: Under current FOC rules, any Chapter can already do that. However, I've explicitly said in this thread that I supported the idea of giving all <Deathwing> and <Ravenwing> detachments a Command Points boost, which could easily be done in a supplement.
- Have unique rules: The majority of which on otherwise generic units, yes. As the Chapter Tactics for the White Scars have demonstrated, giving otherwise generic units a unique rule due to their keyword is trivially easy. Things like the Jink and Inner Circle rules can be provided to otherwise generic datasheets for the same effect as bespoke datasheets, without needing to create slightly different datasheets.
- Hunt the Fallen: Represented by their rules, which I've addressed above.
- Some unique datasheets: Yes, but only about a small handful more than what the Ultramarines have. I'm sure a supplement could easily afford a handful more pages.

If you have any more unique features, please, mention them politely, and I'll go over why it could probably be reflected without a Codex.

while the number of datasheet that DA have in common with SM is important, they also have a significant number of datasheet that are different from SM and that due to that significant number they cannot be compared to other codex compliant SM chapters, something Smudge and his crew is unable to get/contredict (it's not 3rd ed anymore ...). A coherent argumentation for that consolidation should start with acknowledging the specificities of those non codex chapters and thinking about ways to make it so that those chapters keep what makes their identity in the new frame they desire

They don't have that many differences though - less than 15% - and many of those differences are either trivially easy to replicate via Chapter Tactics (Bikers gaining Jink as part of their Chapter Tactic, becoming Ravenwing Bikers) or have no reason beyond nostalgia to not be included (Thunderfire Cannons and Centurions).

As you said, it's not 3rd Edition any more - which means that we can use things like keyword effects and suchlike to replicate Jink and Inner Circle.

The problem is mostly highlighted in your final sentence: we're working via opposite means. I am looking at the Dark Angels as they stand now, and questioning if their identity needs a Codex to reflect it. You are looking at the Dark Angels as something that needs a Codex to reflect it's identity, and want to change how they stand now in order to make them more unique.
Or, to be more basic, I'm observing the test subject to reach a hypothesis, and you are changing the test subject to suit your pre-conceived hypothesis.

second point is that the consolidation they so desire, and the end of all restrictions, would logically mean the discontinuation (and thus the loss of diversity) of many non-SM codex units, such as the nephilim jetfighter, because those units have the same tactical role as their SM only counter part

Except for the parts when I explicitly said that I wanted to keep units like the Nephilim, even though they shared the same tactical role as other generic units that I would also wish the DA to have.

This shows your lack of understanding of my argument. I've made it very clear which units I want to keep unique, and which I want to make generic/stratagem'd. Nephilim Jetfighters, despite being in the same tactical role as other generic units, should not be made generic, because their weapon options are too different, their aesthetic design is too different, and their rules are not as similar as, say, Ravenwing Bikers and White Scars Bikers.

In other words, you make a leap of logic that I have not, and attribute it falsely to me.

third point is that overall their argument does not value diversity and is based around a flawed, subjective understanding of the game. They view simplification as a value, while others (most consumers actually according to econ theory) might value diversity and opportunity of choices. As such their arguments lack objectivity and cannot be taken seriously

Similarly, this would suggest that your arguments lack objectivity, as you do not view simplification as a value, and therefore cannot be taken seriously.

Newsflash - it's called an opinion. If I value simplification, that doesn't mean my argument cannot be taken seriously, any more so than if you do not.

So, in the interest of continuing to discuss opinions, I suggest dropping this kind of argument. No-one's argument "cannot be taken seriously" if they happen to have a different core belief.

finally, I want to add that everything they wish for is actually going in the exact opposite direction in regards to what GW is doing. GW is doing everything it can to diversify and distinguish factions from each others : one of the best exemple of that is the dévelopment of SMC factions and units that are getting more and more different from their SM counterpart (see the rise of deamon engine, the evolution of havocs, etc.). The new SM codex supplements are another exemple of that : rather than consolidating everything in a codex (with an inflation in the number of pages), they are adding diversity to accomodate players. In fact, all SM first founding chapters (aside from SW/BA/DA) are now in the same situation that the DA/BA/SW in the 3rd edition of the game.

Which is my reason as to why they should all be the same now. We're at a point where, as you say yourself, GW are adding diversity into factions that stem from a core book of units. Just because Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels aren't part of that now, that doesn't explain why they shouldn't be in the future.

To make it clear - this is not a discussion about what GW will do, and as a result, I could not care less about what GW's trends are, what GW's plans are, and what GW would most likely do.
This is a discussion about if they *should*, and if so, *how*.

As you say - all SM first founding Chapters are in the same place that those three unique Chapters were - showing that it's not a case of "only these three Chapters are unique enough to have their own rules!"
When every Chapter is special, why do those three get special treatment? There are two solutions that are fair - either everyone gets Codex, and supplements are scrapped, or no-one gets a Codex, and everyone gets a supplement.

Except for the parts when I explicitly said that I wanted to keep units like the Nephilim, even though they shared the same tactical role as other generic units that I would also wish the DA to have.

This shows your lack of understanding of my argument. I've made it very clear which units I want to keep unique, and which I want to make generic/stratagem'd. Nephilim Jetfighters, despite being in the same tactical role as other generic units, should not be made generic, because their weapon options are too different, their aesthetic design is too different, and their rules are not as similar as, say, Ravenwing Bikers and White Scars Bikers.

I said I would not respond but Smudge it is you who do not understand : why would GW produce two exact same unit for the same faction ? In the long run all the consumers will inevitably only buy one of those two kit (the most efficient) and render the second useless. Not to mention there is a fluff reason as to why DA do not have stormhawk and the likes.

WhiteDog, at the risk of sounding self-concieted, it a discussion of my proposal that I offered several pages back we're discussing here.

Implying that you know the discussion of my own thoughts and opinions better than I do is a tad arrogant.

There have been thousands of comment/post on the idea that DA/SW/BA should not have codexes. You're not unique : it is a recurrent topic pushed by the same people over and over again. And as a DA player I find those topic seriously aggravating.

When every Chapter is special, why do those three get special treatment? There are two solutions that are fair - either everyone gets Codex, and supplements are scrapped, or no-one gets a Codex, and everyone gets a supplement.

So you indeed agree that having a codex is a special treatment that add originality to them - contradicting the beautiful flower metaphore you posted just a bit earlier. So it's about fairness, you feel cheated because DA/SW/BA have a unique codex ? ...

They don't have that many differences though - less than 15%

There's less genetical differences between a man and a pig than those 15%. In absolute numbers, the differences between DA and SM amount to the same datasheets as the custodes : this says a lot. And it's not all unique characters that were created for the fluff.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
What I think is interesting about this whole thing is that the Angels were given most of those unique models to justify having their own codex.

When they got their 4th Edition codex, the only unique models the DA had were their named characters. Everything else used all the same models and stats. The only structural differences were Terminator Weapon options and being able to purchase a Land Speeder with your Bike Squads. To add on to it, the only Space Marine codices which stated that they weren't Codex Chapters were Black Templars and Space Wolves. Both Angel codices have said for a long time that they were Codex Chapters, aside from the Wings and Death Company.

Terminator Apothecaries even existed in Codex: Space Marines when that DA codex was released, but they were part of the Command Squads. Those Terminator Command Squads didn't go away till 5th Edition. It wouldn't take a genius to figure out how to bring them back in the current edition, either (though with all the bloat it has and the renewed focus on Primaris...).

Brilliant idea : let's go back to 4th ed. Yeah there was less diversity back then...

Not the point, but go on thinking that was what I said. I was merely pointing out that a couple of the "unique" aspects being talked about were not so unique once upon a time, and some other things were bullied in to the codex just to justify their own codex, even while calling them Codex-adherent at the same time.

Oddly enough, there was a little more choice in that 4th Edition codex then there was in the current one. Currently, you are either of a Chapter or a Successor of one, and you follow all of their special rules. However, back then, you could customize a little. Want to run a combo of Iron Hands and Imperial Fists, there was a way. While there was usually a "Best Build" out that group, the fact that the choice was allowed and the dropped like a really bad habit in favor of Named Characters or codices with "brand new, but totally ancient units" is still a bit sour.

 Charistoph wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
What I think is interesting about this whole thing is that the Angels were given most of those unique models to justify having their own codex.

When they got their 4th Edition codex, the only unique models the DA had were their named characters. Everything else used all the same models and stats. The only structural differences were Terminator Weapon options and being able to purchase a Land Speeder with your Bike Squads. To add on to it, the only Space Marine codices which stated that they weren't Codex Chapters were Black Templars and Space Wolves. Both Angel codices have said for a long time that they were Codex Chapters, aside from the Wings and Death Company.

Terminator Apothecaries even existed in Codex: Space Marines when that DA codex was released, but they were part of the Command Squads. Those Terminator Command Squads didn't go away till 5th Edition. It wouldn't take a genius to figure out how to bring them back in the current edition, either (though with all the bloat it has and the renewed focus on Primaris...).

Brilliant idea : let's go back to 4th ed. Yeah there was less diversity back then...

Not the point, but go on thinking that was what I said. I was merely pointing out that a couple of the "unique" aspects being talked about were not so unique once upon a time, and some other things were bullied in to the codex just to justify their own codex, even while calling them Codex-adherent at the same time.

Oddly enough, there was a little more choice in that 4th Edition codex then there was in the current one. Currently, you are either of a Chapter or a Successor of one, and you follow all of their special rules. However, back then, you could customize a little. Want to run a combo of Iron Hands and Imperial Fists, there was a way. While there was usually a "Best Build" out that group, the fact that the choice was allowed and the dropped like a really bad habit in favor of Named Characters or codices with "brand new, but totally ancient units" is still a bit sour.

This argument is lackluster and do not understand the evolution of the game. If you go back to 3rd or 4th ed., Custodes or even ad mech were not a faction but a fluffy entity that had one or two existing models. GW did not "bully" uniqueness into those factions : they willingly created diversity to create a bigger demand for their product. And they started to build that diversity since the beginning, slowly growing the differencies between factions as they developped the game. It is a design choice, that goes hand in hand with the expansion of the lore.
What you are pointing, and that's true, is that this diversity in models and factions came with a relative and incremental empoverishment of rules and customization (and that is obvious when one look at what was rogue trader) but I'd argue that is also a design choice made for business purposes. The end of warhammer battle and the birth of AoS can be seen in this light.
To sumarize, and contrary to what you believe, the diversity that distinguish DA and other factions from SM is not that of fakeness but the result of an incremental development of the game that was already there, in germs, in the beginning.

WhiteDog wrote:

Except for the parts when I explicitly said that I wanted to keep units like the Nephilim, even though they shared the same tactical role as other generic units that I would also wish the DA to have.

This shows your lack of understanding of my argument. I've made it very clear which units I want to keep unique, and which I want to make generic/stratagem'd. Nephilim Jetfighters, despite being in the same tactical role as other generic units, should not be made generic, because their weapon options are too different, their aesthetic design is too different, and their rules are not as similar as, say, Ravenwing Bikers and White Scars Bikers.

I said I would not respond but Smudge it is you who do not understand : why would GW produce two exact same unit for the same faction ?

Hunter and Stalker. Stormhawk and Stormtalon. Infiltrator and Incursor.

But I'd also like to tackle the idea of Nephilim being the same as Stormhawks, because they're really not - beyond simply "aircraft". While they *can* be armed in the same way (Nephilim with basic weapons vs Stormhawk with lastalon)*, they possess a suit of different rules. The Nephilim is tailored for air-to-ground hunting, with Strafing Run. Meanwhile, the Stormhawk is tailored for air-to-air combat, having resistances and advantages against other aerial threats.

Even the Stormtalon is unique, acting more as a hovering air-to-ground unit, which the jetfighter can't compete with, and the Dark Talon is a bomber, with vastly different weaponry.

*If we were to say that, because they can be armed similarly they fill the same role, how about Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans?

Not to mention there is a fluff reason as to why DA do not have stormhawk and the likes.

Oh really - what is it?

Because I've been asking this question since I first started making my proposals, and no-one's answered it without creating a ton of inconsistencies with DA lore.

WhiteDog, at the risk of sounding self-concieted, it a discussion of my proposal that I offered several pages back we're discussing here.

Implying that you know the discussion of my own thoughts and opinions better than I do is a tad arrogant.

There have been thousands of comment/post on the idea that DA/SW/BA should not have codexes. You're not unique : it is a recurrent topic pushed by the same people over and over again.

But those same people aren't the ones pushing it here, and as SlayerFan and I have shown, we can still both be in support of consolidation for very different reasons and motivations.

From what I can see, it was my proposals, which I laid down in detail, that have provided the current cut-and-thrust of this particular discussion at this point in time. Therefore, implying that I 'just don't get' what this discussion is about is incredibly patronising, as well as incorrect.

When every Chapter is special, why do those three get special treatment? There are two solutions that are fair - either everyone gets Codex, and supplements are scrapped, or no-one gets a Codex, and everyone gets a supplement.

So you indeed agree that having a codex is a special treatment that add originality to them - contradicting the beautiful flower metaphore you posted just a bit earlier.

No, I don't agree with that at all - if you had been paying attention in all of my posts, instead of cherrypicking my comments, you'd see that I've consistently maintained that:
A ) Chapters don't need Codexes to make them original, because supplements do that just fine.
B ) I don't like the idea of individual Codexes, because they share so many of the same units, you might as well just put the shared units into the same book instead of wasting paper. In this regard, it becomes so much cheaper to collect multiple Chapters (because you already bought the core Codex).

My paraphrasing of Shakespeare was to signify that "it doesn't matter if you're a Codex or supplement, so long as you have the mechanical functions that made you unique in the first place". Not "Codexes don't give special treatment".

To say it again, just in case you try to cherrypick my posts again: As long as you have all the same mechanical function, it doesn't really matter if you have a Codex or a supplement, so long as everyone has the same thing. However, due to being cheaper for multiple collections and not having to reprint the same units over and over again, I feel that the supplements are superior to full Codexes.

So it's about fairness, you feel cheated because DA/SW/BA have a unique codex ? ...

Not "cheated", more "if everyone is special, why isn't everyone treated the same?"

I've never felt "cheated" by DA/BA/SW having their own books, because I played Ultramarines, and the basic Space Marine Codex was essentially Codex: Ultramarines in all but name (not a good thing, I'm sure anyone will agree). Back then, those Chapters had mechanical differences that actually made sense why they needed to have their own books (keywords didn't exist, the force org chart was more restrictive, etc etc) But with 8th edition, and every Chapter getting their own Chapter Tactics, and now their own supplements, unique units, abilities, stratagems, etc etc, the idea that DA/BA/SW were special never changed, but that everyone else was now special too. And if everyone else was special, why were the DA/BA/SW being treated differently all the same?

And so far, the only reason given for that has been "because they've always been like that" - which is an appeal to the status quo, and frankly isn't a good answer why the status quo shouldn't change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

They don't have that many differences though - less than 15%

There's less genetical differences between a man and a pig than those 15%.

Unfortunately, genetics and plastic models aren't related, so regardless of if 85% of our DNA is the same as a banana or not, it means literally nothing.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
I was merely pointing out that a couple of the "unique" aspects being talked about were not so unique once upon a time, and some other things were bullied in to the codex just to justify their own codex, even while calling them Codex-adherent at the same time.

Oddly enough, there was a little more choice in that 4th Edition codex then there was in the current one. Currently, you are either of a Chapter or a Successor of one, and you follow all of their special rules. However, back then, you could customize a little. Want to run a combo of Iron Hands and Imperial Fists, there was a way. While there was usually a "Best Build" out that group, the fact that the choice was allowed and the dropped like a really bad habit in favor of Named Characters or codices with "brand new, but totally ancient units" is still a bit sour.

This argument is lackluster and do not understand the evolution of the game. If you go back to 3rd or 4th ed., Custodes or even ad mech were not a faction but a fluffy entity that had one or two existing models. GW did not "bully" uniqueness into those factions : they willingly created diversity to create a bigger demand for their product. And they started to build that diversity since the beginning, slowly growing the differencies between factions as they developped the game. It is a design choice, that goes hand in hand with the expansion of the lore.

AdMech and Custodes are not a fair comparison because they are not being created by a piggyback procedure that at one point took 95% of another codex and just added a few Characters with some fluff to justify a full codex, then later adding more models because there really wasn't anything to justify them being by themselves otherwise. AdMech and Custodes were factions in the fluff, just without models, but they weren't Space Marines or Imperial Guard in any real form, while the Angels both were and are.

You just don't like me pointing out the history of this codex, which is part and parcel of the evolution of the game. So since you don't like it, you call it lackluster.

WhiteDog wrote:
What you are pointing, and that's true, is that this diversity in models and factions came with a relative and incremental empoverishment of rules (and that is obvious when one look at what was rogue trader) but I'd argue that is also a design choice made for business purposes. The end of warhammer battle and the birth of AoS can be seen in this light.

Nowhere have I stated or implied that there was an impoverishment of the rules. I was merely stating what historically happened and that, in some cases, there was forced separation for the sake of diversity. This diversity has both helped and hindered both Angels in many cases since they were converted from supplement to unique codex, not the least of which is when new toys and standards come out for the Space Marine codex but would still fit in the fluff of the (self-stated) Codex-Adherent Angel chapters, yet the non-Codex-adherent Black Templar could access just fine.

WhiteDog wrote:
To sumarize, and contrary to what you believe, the diversity that distinguish DA and other factions from SM is not that of fakeness but the result of an incremental development of the game that was already there, in germs, in the beginning of the game.

To reiterate what you have completely ignored, is that the diversity was forced FIRST, and then came the incremental development afterward. And to rather point out, most of this diversity could still be operating in a supplement (albeit a heavier one than say, Supplement: Raven Guard) with a smaller book and less catastrophic problems to the Angel Chapters.

Space Wolves, on the other hand, have their setup so wacky that it wouldn't work as a Supplement without truly impoverishing their ruleset. Black Templars used to have similar wackiness, but a lot of that was ignored when SM 6th came out.

What makes you say that it was "forced" aside from your own resentment towards the fact that some SM factions have more than others ?

AdMech and Custodes are not a fair comparison because they are not being created by a piggyback procedure that at one point took 95% of another codex and just added a few Characters with some fluff to justify a full codex, then later adding more models because there really wasn't anything to justify them being by themselves otherwise. AdMech and Custodes were factions in the fluff, just without models, but they weren't Space Marines or Imperial Guard in any real form, while the Angels both were and are.

No it is totally a fair comparison, especially considering what Custodes were in the lore at the beginning of the game. Bunch of men in panties with no perticular identity whatsoever in the lore aside from the fact that they guarded the emperor.

Thus codex adherant non codex adherant thingy that pops every time this discussion is made is short sighted, damn.

*If we were to say that, because they can be armed similarly they fill the same role, how about Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans?

You just proved my point : nobody plays Assault Marine because Vanguard Veteran do better in any way. If the relative cost of assault marine change in favor of vanguard veteran, the opposite might come true. Those two units are totally redundant in this ed.

Um if you looked at the actual history of the codices it was forced. You can continue pretending it wasn't, but that's not doing you favors for your argument.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Um if you looked at the actual history of the codices it was forced. You can continue pretending it wasn't, but that's not doing you favors for your argument.

You mean the SM familly cried because GW forcefully took their siblings and the great 40K community couldn't react in time to prevent this crime ?

Are you being serious? Cuz, if so, I'm afraid you're demonstrating your ignorance. Even just from context clues, it's pretty clear that "forced", in regards to this conversation, means "GW saw that DA, SW, etc had a large number of players and, in order to make more money off these people, they separated them into individual Codexes and changed the lore to add more unique options order to justify doing this."

 flandarz wrote:
Are you being serious? Cuz, if so, I'm afraid you're demonstrating your ignorance. Even just from context clues, it's pretty clear that "forced", in regards to this conversation, means "GW saw that DA, SW, etc had a large number of players and, in order to make more money off these people, they separated them into individual Codexes and changed the lore to add more unique options order to justify doing this."

It's not "forced", it's a long run design choice to diversify their products... The 2nd ed angels of death supplement was already "forced" to "make more money" ? You're just expressing a frustration towards a long term GW strategy.
What about the TS codex or the DG codex ? It's the exact same : GW create various units out of thin air to justify some sort of specificity and increase the diversity in the product line. Custodes is the same. GW would be doing that to all factions if there was a market for it.
You cannot just disregard that kind of evolution because if you did you'd actually disregard the entire lore of the game : most of it was build month after month, release after release, with rewritings and inconsistencies. You cannot nitpick what you like and what you dislike in all that and argue that this if forced and that is not. Custodes is a good exemple of that : why are they not the men in panties that they were ? What justify their importance today in the lore of the first editions ?

The difference between something like Custodes and DA is that Custodes have unique units.

80% or more of their Dex is units they have and no one else does. They follow similar patterns (Bikes, Terminators, Troops) but are still distinct.

DA has a very small proportion of unique units-they're still very much Marines.

WhiteDog, as a question, what's lost if DA become a supplement? Assume we're using Smudge's ideas, so it's not worst-case scenario.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The difference between something like Custodes and DA is that Custodes have unique units.

80% or more of their Dex is units they have and no one else does. They follow similar patterns (Bikes, Terminators, Troops) but are still distinct.

Untrue : the number of specific datasheet that the custodes have is basically the same as the unique datasheets the DA have.

WhiteDog, as a question, what's lost if DA become a supplement? Assume we're using Smudge's ideas, so it's not worst-case scenario.

Nothing if it is done right. I'm not against it, what I'm against is the stupid idea that DA are basically marine "with very few units that don't make sense" like some argued here. I'm not okay to go back to the time where the only difference between DA and UM was the color of the armor. DA have various unique units and many restrictions and it is fine that way and I would be fine if they were in a supplement with those restrictions and those unique units. But if your desire is to end the specificity of the DA because you are jealous like Slayer and Smudge (tyrannic war vet as an army for god sake please .....) then why would I agree with your plan ?

WhiteDog wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The difference between something like Custodes and DA is that Custodes have unique units.

80% or more of their Dex is units they have and no one else does. They follow similar patterns (Bikes, Terminators, Troops) but are still distinct.

Untrue : the number of specific datasheet that the custodes have is basically the same as the unique datasheets the DA have.

WhiteDog, as a question, what's lost if DA become a supplement? Assume we're using Smudge's ideas, so it's not worst-case scenario.

Nothing if it is done right. I'm not against it, what I'm against is the stupid idea that DA are basically marine "with very few units that don't make sense" like some argued here. I'm not okay to go back to the time where the only difference between DA and UM was the color of the armor. DA have various unique units and many restrictions and it is fine that way and I would be fine if they were in a supplement with those restrictions and those unique units. But if your desire is to end the specificity of the DA because you are jealous like Slayer and Smudge (tyrannic war vet as an army for god sake please .....) then why would I agree with your plan ?

To the first, that's because Custodes only have about a dozen units. But you're being disingenuous-what did I say that was untrue? 80% or more of the Custodes Dex is unique. 80% or more of the DA Dex is shared.

As for the latter... What specific issues do you have with Smudge's consolidation plan?

WhiteDog wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The difference between something like Custodes and DA is that Custodes have unique units.

80% or more of their Dex is units they have and no one else does. They follow similar patterns (Bikes, Terminators, Troops) but are still distinct.

Untrue : the number of specific datasheet that the custodes have is basically the same as the unique datasheets the DA have.

Ultramarines have as many specific datatsheets as Custodes and Harlequins have. That still doesn't make them any more of an independent faction, because their whole Codex consists of far more units.

Custodes, despite sharing 16% of their units with other Space Marines, are unique because the units they do have are so fundamentally different. Compare to Dark Angels, after sharing 85% of the same units, whose unique units are variants of otherwise normal units, but withe extra special rules and equipment. Or, to put it another way, converting a Deathwing Knight from normal Terminators would be far easier than converting an Allarus Custodian from the same Terminator.

WhiteDog, as a question, what's lost if DA become a supplement? Assume we're using Smudge's ideas, so it's not worst-case scenario.

Nothing if it is done right. I'm not against it, what I'm against is the stupid idea that DA are basically marine "with very few units that don't make sense" like some argued here.

Who's argued that? Dark Angels absolutely make sense having some of their unique units (no substitutes for things like Deathwing Knights or Black Knights!), but some of their units could, and should, be made generic (Terminator Apothecary), and there's many options they can't take (Thunderfire Cannons/Centurions) that there's no reason for them not to.*

That's the bit that doesn't make sense. But aside from that, that still leaves Dark Angels with 17 unique units, alongside all their unique stratagems and abilities, as well as Command Point boosts for pure Deathwing and Ravenwing armies - easily distinct, easily unique.
*obviously not Sternguard and Vanguard Vets.

I'm not okay to go back to the time where the only difference between DA and UM was the color of the armor.

Under my proposal, that wouldn't be happening. Dark Angels would have their own unique units, their own unique abilities, and their own unique playstyle. They'd be no more like Ultramarines than Iron Hands are (which they're not).

DA have various unique units and many restrictions and it is fine that way and I would be fine if they were in a supplement with those restrictions and those unique units.

The unique units, I get. Some of the restricted units (Sternguard/Vanguard), I understand. But for the few units that have literally no lore reason not to exist in that faction? Why would you be happy with that? If GW turned around and said "yeah, we're introducing this brand new unit into all Space Marine Chapters... except Dark Angels, for no reason", why is that acceptable?

Again, you claimed earlier that you had lore reasons why the Dark Angels don't have those units. I'd like to hear them.

But if your desire is to end the specificity of the DA because you are jealous

What have I got to be jealous of? My faction has the largest supplement choices. I'm happy with my Victrix Guard and Tyrannic War Vets.

What doesn't make sense is why, when presented with something that would preserve all of the Dark Angels' units and abilities and rules, in one form or another, you act like you lose everything because it's not called a "Codex", or *gasp* heaven forfend! you can actually take a few units that you couldn't take before for not reason!

like Slayer and Smudge (tyrannic war vet as an army for god sake please .....)

What's wrong with it? Does my fluff offend you?

Tyrannic War Vets are just as valid as a solo army as any other. Want all Devastators? Ninth Company. Want all Assault Marines? 8th Company. Want all Tacticals? 6th or 7th Company.
There's more than enough room in the lore for a Tyrannic War Veterans army.

 JNAProductions wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The difference between something like Custodes and DA is that Custodes have unique units.

80% or more of their Dex is units they have and no one else does. They follow similar patterns (Bikes, Terminators, Troops) but are still distinct.

Untrue : the number of specific datasheet that the custodes have is basically the same as the unique datasheets the DA have.

WhiteDog, as a question, what's lost if DA become a supplement? Assume we're using Smudge's ideas, so it's not worst-case scenario.

Nothing if it is done right. I'm not against it, what I'm against is the stupid idea that DA are basically marine "with very few units that don't make sense" like some argued here. I'm not okay to go back to the time where the only difference between DA and UM was the color of the armor. DA have various unique units and many restrictions and it is fine that way and I would be fine if they were in a supplement with those restrictions and those unique units. But if your desire is to end the specificity of the DA because you are jealous like Slayer and Smudge (tyrannic war vet as an army for god sake please .....) then why would I agree with your plan ?

To the first, that's because Custodes only have about a dozen units. But you're being disingenuous-what did I say that was untrue? 80% or more of the Custodes Dex is unique. 80% or more of the DA Dex is shared.

As for the latter... What specific issues do you have with Smudge's consolidation plan?

You argued that "the difference between something like Custodes and DA is that Custodes have unique units" : it is untrue because they have the same exact number of unique units. You're right about the %, but you're taking this relative fact too far to push your own biased point of view. As for your question I've already aswered.

But for the few units that have literally no lore reason not to exist in that faction?

There are serious lore reasons as to why DA don't have stormhawk interceptors and the likes, you just don't know those. You're getting boring and boring repeating the same exhausted and blatantly false points. I'll tell you out of respect for the forum, even if I've already said that : DA don't give much tactical role to techmarines because they are affiliated to Mars/the adeptus mechanicus (and since they want to protect their secrets, you know this essential plot point that define the DA identity ...). DA flyers are pilotted by Ravenwing members (that's why they are painted in black) AND NOT techmarines like all other chapters, which is why DA have their own flyers (and not Stormtalon and Stormhawk who are built by the adeptus mechanicus exclusively), and also why they have more flyers than other chapters (techmarine are harder to form). This has been the case since ... the release of flyers in 40K. And the relationship between techmarines, the adeptus mechanicus and the DA was already discussed in the 3rd ed. codex (the head techmarine of the rock do not have access to much of the rock and never get induced into the deathwing and the inner circle because they don't trust him ...).
And you know, I'm sure, that the dark talon has a prison within itself ? Since the pilot is a ravenwing, the Dark talon is used as transport for fallen that were captured... How could a techmarine do that ?

There is a good chance that there are lore reasons for most of the things you disagree with : you just don't know about it.

Ultramarines have as many specific datatsheets as Custodes and Harlequins have. That still doesn't make them any more of an independent faction, because their whole Codex consists of far more units.

Custodes, despite sharing 16% of their units with other Space Marines, are unique because the units they do have are so fundamentally different. Compare to Dark Angels, after sharing 85% of the same units, whose unique units are variants of otherwise normal units, but withe extra special rules and equipment. Or, to put it another way, converting a Deathwing Knight from normal Terminators would be far easier than converting an Allarus Custodian from the same Terminator.

We've already done that already : the datasheets that ultramarines have are only unique characters aside from the tyrannic war vet. and you can't make an army out of that. You can't compare that to the spammable units DW/RW and custodes have. Only your own ridiculous bias makes you able to spout such nonsense

So TELL US the lore!

Don’t just say “it’s there, believe me”, educate us! We’re happy to learn.

Edit: because nothing there says why they can’t have a Ravenwing pilot in a normal marine vehicle.

To be clear, my line for "should this be it's own Codex" is: if you can remove all the unique unit options and STILL field everything you'd need for a 2k pt army, then you probably don't need your own book.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So TELL US the lore!

Don’t just say “it’s there, believe me”, educate us! We’re happy to learn.

Edit: because nothing there says why they can’t have a Ravenwing pilot in a normal marine vehicle.

In most marine vehicule, the pilot within has a pauldron with the adeptus mechanicus emblem signaling its affiliation to the adeptus mechanicus (it's the case in most marine kit, if not all). Ravenwing pilot pilot machine that have a role in the hunt for the fallen : the jetfighters are part of those (as I said, the Dark Talon is a moving prison) and so are bike, etc. But not troop transports or tanks such as the repulsor or the rhino, those are pilotted, like in any chapter, by marine affiliated to the adeptus mechanicus.

The dark angels are organized in a multitude of circle or trial, each circle giving to the initiate a bigger understanding of the treason that are the fallen. The RW and the DW are part of the few units that knows about the fallen, and even to them there are many secrets that are not accessible. Above the DW/RW there is the inner circle, and even amongst the inner circle only the grand master, Azrael, knew about the fact that Luther had a cell in the Rock. All this to say that you can be in the DA and don't know much about the true secret goal of the DA : this is why the DA can be both a codex compliant chapter (from the 3rd compagny up to the last) and a very distinct chapter with its own goal.

So why do DA have Techmarine HQs?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So why do DA have Techmarine HQs?

They are a necessity - the chapter still rely on the adeptus mechanicus for their most basic tech needs (bolter, armor, etc.). There's also a "master of the rock", head techmarine, that plug himself to the Rock and slowly die managing this huge infrastructure. But even he, as I said before, do not have access to some part of the Rock. The DA is a paranoid chapter.

So why can’t they have regular fliers?

They won’t be special, but they’ll be there.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So why can’t they have regular fliers?

They won’t be special, but they’ll be there.

They use jetfighters for recon and to transport prisonners - i.e. they use those flyers to hunt fallen. As I said, the Dark Talon is litterally a mobile prison.
To transport basic troops the DA use the same stormraven and thunwerhawk like all the other chapters, it is just their small flyers that are different (unlike the SW).

Also the Dark Talon is mounted with some kind of archeo tech gun that no other chapter has aside from the 1rst legion because they are the first and thus were equipped and started crusading before the alliance between mars and terra.

Because they can only ever use fliers for one thing, and never have another purpose ever.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because they can only ever use fliers for one thing, and never have another purpose ever.

It's obvious that they use them for many things : the hunt for the fallen is just a very small part of what the DA do. But it is that small part that define all their rite, their hierarchical structure, their way of thinking and their behavior. They cannot let a non initiate know about the fallen, and giving too much freedom to techmarines, who are affiliated to the adeptus mechanicus, could be a problem in this regard.

I'd be all for DA (and BA/SW) being rolled into the SM codex as a supplement.

There's no reason that a supplement can't provide the extra
- Datasheets for the Characters and DW/RW.
- Chapter Trait and Super Doctrine trait
- An extra paragraph or two to show how Doctrines are different, i.e. Devastator Doctrine affects DEATHWING differently to the rest of the army etc
- Litanies table with an interrogation theme
- Obligatory WL Traits, Psyker table, Stratagems, Relics, Objectives

All the above is exactly how the other SM supplements are handled and they all work very well. Some have far less datasheets than others (compare UM to RG for example).

I say all this as a DA player since 3rd Ed (this isn't a boast to dismiss anyone's opinion, but to show that I've been invested in the DA lore and seen it develop for nearly 20 years.)

My 2c

WhiteDog wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because they can only ever use fliers for one thing, and never have another purpose ever.

It's obvious that they use them for many things : the hunt for the fallen is just a very small part of what the DA do. But it is that small part that define all their rite, their hierarchical structure, their way of thinking and their behavior. They cannot let a non initiate know about the fallen, and giving too much freedom to techmarines, who are affiliated to the adeptus mechanicus, could be a problem in this regard.

So why are Techmarines even allowed relics if they can't be trusted?

WhiteDog wrote:
What makes you say that it was "forced" aside from your own resentment towards the fact that some SM factions have more than others ?

Apparently you didn't learn much about the Dark Angels until after they received 6th Edition Codex, otherwise you would know exactly what I was talking about. This is when they received their fancy new Ravenwing Vehicles and Deathwing models that everyone is using to justify their unique codex. You want to know what they had before that that wasn't Character? Zilch. Oh, there were some organizational differences here and there, like combining Assault Terminators with "Tactical" Terminators and allowing for the Land Speeder to be included in Bike Squadrons, and instead of adding in single models, they experimented with the squads being either demi or full (that part didn't go so well). Outside of that and some extra bling you could add to the models, there was as much difference between Dark Angels and Ultramarines as there was between the Black Templars and Ultramarines. And where did the Black Templars end up again? Oh, right.

So, yeah, it is forced when a supplement would have covered it just as well. Black Templars had more organizational peculiarities in their 4th Edition codex than Dark Angels had in theirs. One example of Black Templars is the lack of Scout units, with the Scout models being incorporated in to the regular Power Armor units. Another is that there were no Sergeants outside of the Command Squads. None. This required an alteration of unit options that neither Codex: Marines or Codex: Dark Angels had. Also consider the fact that they were forced to take a specific HQ, and above a certain game size, he did not take up a slot. Most of that got hand-waved away in 6th Edition for Black Templars. It really wouldn't have been too difficult to add new model units to their codex like what happened with the Angels, but they chose to incorporate them in with the Blueberries.

This is what I mean about forced diversity.

WhiteDog wrote:

AdMech and Custodes are not a fair comparison because they are not being created by a piggyback procedure that at one point took 95% of another codex and just added a few Characters with some fluff to justify a full codex, then later adding more models because there really wasn't anything to justify them being by themselves otherwise. AdMech and Custodes were factions in the fluff, just without models, but they weren't Space Marines or Imperial Guard in any real form, while the Angels both were and are.

No it is totally a fair comparison, especially considering what Custodes were in the lore at the beginning of the game. Bunch of men in panties with no perticular identity whatsoever in the lore aside from the fact that they guarded the emperor.

Thus codex adherant non codex adherant thingy that pops every time this discussion is made is short sighted, damn.

False. You may as well bring up Dark Eldar or Necrons for all the relevance that Ad Mech and Custodes have in relationship to the Space Marine codex and Dark Angels, because you keep ignoring the very key point: Dark Angels are Space Marines, sharing the vast majority of their kit with the other codex. The number of unique models isn't the real issue, it is what they have (and should have!) in common which is the main point that you keep choosing to ignore.