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 Dysartes wrote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - all eighteen of the original SM Legions should get their own Codex. Some of these books would require more development time than others as, to date, some of these factions have seen far less focus and development.

That game already exists, The Horus Heresy is an option for people interested in that. However, trying to fit in that many marine armies (armies that comprise some of the smallest and rarest forces in the setting, and where most of the Loyalist ones are ostensibly Codex Astartes adherent anyway), sharing 80-90% of the same content, while also trying to manage an array of far more varied armies like Orks, Guard, Tyranids, Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Sisters, Demons, etc, would be...silly, and there's a reason HH doesn't try for the most part (aside from AdMech and Solar Auxilia as an afterthought) and just does Marines.

In editions past, a page of supplement rules for each legion/chapter, or mix-n-match traits worked just fine. Many still see the 3.5E CSM codex as the epitome of gameplay fluff expression (despite whatever balance issues it had in other ways), and that codex managed to do the entirety of the Chaos Space Marine faction (with pictures and fluff) in 80 pages.

What I find interesting is that in 3rd Edition, they were all in supplemental form. Yeah, they had some unique set ups and labeled as Codex, but for the most part a lot of the entries were: "See: Codex: Space Marines". It wasn't until Codex: Black Templars came out that this started going away, and it hurt them when everyone else moved on to the new pricing formats.

And the first independent Codex: Dark Angels of that generation was during GW's Blue period which had Codex: Eldar and Codex: Chaos Space Marines with generic Daemons. Not good starting examples.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
"Create your own army" is better than "Choose between all those preset armies".
So having one unique book with enough flexibility to represent all kind of armies, including the already established ones, is better than having more, less flexible books to represent specific, set in stone factions.
Checkmate, codex-separatist!

This.

Infact this is part of the point i made above.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Basically, are you concerned about the cost/weight of having two books, or just holding SW/DA/BA to a different standard?

Just the cost/weight of having two books and lots of pages that I wouldn't care about. What other players get doesn't interest me, I want a book that deals with my army and my army only. If it's unfair, and all chapters should get their own codex because they feel like they should be independent, fine, I don't see any trouble here. Truth is, I don't even consider SW as SM, but just another imperium army that share some similarities with SM like sisters because they're all imperium so it makes sense that they have some vehicles and weapons in common, but it's basically just that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

In my opinion, Snakebites should have their own supplement. Practically *every* subfaction should have a supplement, except maybe the factions ones with ill-defined/poorly defined subfactions (ie, Harlequins).

No, that's just dumb. All ork clans have exactly the same datasheets and wargear options, barring 1-2 named characters for a couple of spefic clans (deathskulls have 1, goffs have 2, blood axes also 1), they are nothing like stand alone chapters. If in the future each clan gets 10+ unique datasheets, unique psychic powers and unique wargear combinations maybe, at the moment splitting subfactions like ork clans into different books just don't make any sense. Lorewise also, orks don't really care about discipline and organization, they're not part of some military fascist imperium so orks from different clans can fight together with no trouble. Ork clans have definitely their history but they all join the biggest and most charismatic boss around them, regardless of the clan. With your suggestion I'd also have to buy 8 books (90+% all identical to each other ruleswise) just to play orks, lol

Armies like harlequins should have never been stand alone ones: the clowns with their 8 datasheets in total (4 of them characters) should have been included with a couple of obsessions in the drukhari codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - all eighteen of the original SM Legions should get their own Codex. Some of these books would require more development time than others as, to date, some of these factions have seen far less focus and development.

That game already exists, The Horus Heresy is an option for people interested in that.

Exactly this. 18 different SM armies????? Boring as hell, there are already too many SM armies around. If it was for me I'd just keep DA, SW, BA and a fourth generic army that I'd simply label SM. Inside it chapters bonuses like ork clans or drukhari obsessions. Basically the 8th edition SM codex, which was perfectly balanced.

What is your cut-off for "ok, you've got enough unique datasheets to be your own book"? Cuz DA, as already mentioned, is 85% similar and I imagine SW ain't too far off from that number. If 90% is too similar and 85% is dissimilar enough, where is the exact point where it tips?

 Blackie wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Basically, are you concerned about the cost/weight of having two books, or just holding SW/DA/BA to a different standard?

Just the cost/weight of having two books and lots of pages that I wouldn't care about. What other players get doesn't interest me, I want a book that deals with my army and my army only. If it's unfair, and all chapters should get their own codex because they feel like they should be independent, fine, I don't see any trouble here. Truth is, I don't even consider SW as SM, but just another imperium army that share some similarities with SM like sisters because they're all imperium so it makes sense that they have some vehicles and weapons in common, but it's basically just that.

Sisters share about one, maybe two units with Space Marines (Rhinos). Space Wolves share about 72% of their units. So, out of all the First Founders, they're the closest to being unique (largely because of their HQ options with Thnderwolves and suchlike). But that's still 72% of otherwise identical units, plus the generic units that the Wolves don't have for undefined reasons (why do they have Stormhawks but not Stormtalons? Why don't they have Centurions and Thunderfire Cannons?).

But, as I've said before, at least you support the idea of all Chapters having equal treatment on the Codex front. While I might not agree with them needing *Codexes*, I do think that they deserve equal treatment in the current state of the game, and your viewpoint tells me that at least you're primarily concerned about cost/weight, instead of promoting some kind of "other Chapters don't deserve unique things!" agenda, which I respect.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

In my opinion, Snakebites should have their own supplement. Practically *every* subfaction should have a supplement, except maybe the factions ones with ill-defined/poorly defined subfactions (ie, Harlequins).

No, that's just dumb. All ork clans have exactly the same datasheets and wargear options, barring 1-2 named characters for a couple of spefic clans (deathskulls have 1, goffs have 2, blood axes also 1), they are nothing like stand alone chapters. If in the future each clan gets 10+ unique datasheets, unique psychic powers and unique wargear combinations maybe, at the moment splitting subfactions like ork clans into different books just don't make any sense.

I didn't clarify that, but that's exactly what I'd want - at least one unique HQ or unit datasheet, but preferably more, unique psychic powers and relic options, as well as stratagems. Basically, the same as what Space Marine supplements are.
If there's any factions that deserve supplements, it's Imperial Guard and Chaos Marines (if loyalists get it, Chaos should too).

Lorewise also, orks don't really care about discipline and organization, they're not part of some military fascist imperium so orks from different clans can fight together with no trouble. Ork clans have definitely their history but they all join the biggest and most charismatic boss around them, regardless of the clan.

Honestly, the Ork Klan system in game is pretty flawed as is, because you're right, Ork often form up multi-clan armies. Therefore, the only way to properly show this would be to either allow Ork units to pick their Klan on a unit-by-unit basis, or reward Ork armies even further for taking multiple small detachments of individual Klans (ie, a Goff Detachment, an Evil Suns Detachment, and a Bad Moons Detachment). In the former example, supplements wouldn't really work, but in the latter, they'd work just fine.

With your suggestion I'd also have to buy 8 books (90+% all identical to each other ruleswise) just to play orks, lol

In all fairness, you wouldn't *have* to - if you wanted to play Orks, you'd pick up the base Codex, and as an optional purchase, pick up a supplement, same as Space Marines players now don't need to buy all the supplements, if they don't want to.

I don't know where your 72% or 85% comes from. Regarding SW, and completely ignoring the primaris (because I don't play them, so I assume they are exactly the same as SM ones) there are:

- 11 named characters, two with double datasheet.
- Wolf lord with different wargear than SM captain.
- Wolf priest with different special rules and wargear than the apotecary.
- Battle leaders different from SM lieutenants in wargear and unit composition/special rules.
- HQs on thunderwolf mount non included in SM codex.
- Rune priest with different profile, and wargear than librarians, ALL unique psychic powers.
- Iron priest with different profile and wargear than techmarines.
- Grey hunters with different profile (two sargents and 11 man squad) and wargear than tacs.
- Wolf guard with different wargear than SM veterans.
- Ven dread with different wargear, especially the axe and shield version.
- Long fangs with different profile (max 6 dudes plus a wolf guard), special rules and wargear.
- Scouts with a different role (elites) and different wargear.
- Skyclaws with different profile and wargear than SM assault squad.
- Swiftclaws with different profile and wargear than SM bikes, also the attack bike has only BS4+.
- 5 Unique units like blood claws, TWC, fenrisian wolves, wulfen dread and wulfen.
- 2 unique flyers

Some weapons that are not included in the SM codex, like the frost and hellfrost ones.

And there's probably more, this is just what came in my head without checking the codexes.

Basically just primaris and vehicles (not even all of them) are the same units included in SM book, pretty much anything else has something different or is completely different.

They're actually pretty different armies. In fact the lists I usually play have just a single unit that is exactly the same in the SM codex, the 2-3 razorbacks, which means 232 or 348 points out of a 2000 points list. Of course if you play primaris you may have the idea of SW just being a SM chapter, in reality they are much more.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


But, as I've said before, at least you support the idea of all Chapters having equal treatment on the Codex front. While I might not agree with them needing *Codexes*, I do think that they deserve equal treatment in the current state of the game, and your viewpoint tells me that at least you're primarily concerned about cost/weight, instead of promoting some kind of "other Chapters don't deserve unique things!" agenda, which I respect.

If chapters are that much different between each other then yeah I support the idea of making them stand alone armies. If they just differ for 1-2 named characters no, they are the same exact army. But if I have to choose between a consolidation and giving a codex to all the chapters I'd rather have the latter. And I mean codex, not codex plus supplement. Having two books to play a single army (and even not only an army but also a subfaction!) makes no sense at all.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

In all fairness, you wouldn't *have* to - if you wanted to play Orks, you'd pick up the base Codex, and as an optional purchase, pick up a supplement, same as Space Marines players now don't need to buy all the supplements, if they don't want to.

SM not-stand alone chapters should be treated like necrons dynasties, drukhari obsessions or ork clans. Why do I need to buy more than a book just to have all the rules for my faction is beyond me. In all fairness all those SM chapters had everything they needed in SM codex version 1. The supplements are just the answer to those players who wanted some power creep as their armies weren't the flavour of the month anymore.

 Blackie wrote:
I don't know where your 72% or 85% comes from. Regarding SW, and completely ignoring the primaris (because I don't play them, so I assume they are exactly the same as SM ones) there are:

Yeah, Space Wolves and Grey Knights are the only Space Marine Codices who really have no clue as to what Codex adherence is, nor have they ever claimed it like the Angels have been.

Model-wise, the only non-Character ones that they don't share some load outs from C:SM are Wolves, Terminators, and the Flyers. Some of the Power-Armored units share loadouts akin with Black Templar Crusader Squads and Jumpless Assault Marines, so.. Heck, I used a Grey Hunter box for a close combat-geared Crusader Squad of my Black Templar-style homebrew back in the day. Profiles are a bit different here and there, but usually only WS and BS, and those have been changed back and forth across the generations.

So, it really depends on what is being used to define that 72%, and that goes for both of you.

I think at this point its really just about model lines, GW wants to keep the factions with the most unique model kits as their own factions. I just did a quick count of unique model kits for each faction, not counting upgrade kits and doing my best to only count kits that can be built as two or more separate models once, and this is what I came up with:

Ultramarines - 9
Imperial Fists - 2
Crimson Fists - 1
Black Templars - 3
White Scars - 3
Salamanders - 2
Raven Guard - 1
Space Wolves - 24
Blood Angels - 18
Dark Angels - 16

I did this quickly so these numbers are probably not too accurate, but it paints a solid picture of which factions get their own codex and which ones get supplements.

Custodes only have 7 model kits.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes only have 7 model kits.

And aren't a sub-faction of Marines, so your point is?

 BroodSpawn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes only have 7 model kits.

And aren't a sub-faction of Marines, so your point is?

You shouldn't be looking at number of unique models, you should be looking at what percent are unique to the army.

I agree. Space Marines, in general, are always gonna have more unique units, simply because they have the largest unit range. Orkz, for example, have less than 50 units total in their Codex. That's, what, half what Marines get?

 Orblivion wrote:
I think at this point its really just about model lines, GW wants to keep the factions with the most unique model kits as their own factions. I just did a quick count of unique model kits for each faction, not counting upgrade kits and doing my best to only count kits that can be built as two or more separate models once, and this is what I came up with:

Ultramarines - 9
Imperial Fists - 2
Crimson Fists - 1
Black Templars - 3
White Scars - 3
Salamanders - 2
Raven Guard - 1
Space Wolves - 24
Blood Angels - 18
Dark Angels - 16

I did this quickly so these numbers are probably not too accurate, but it paints a solid picture of which factions get their own codex and which ones get supplements.

I'm curious what you are defining as "unique" for those kits. There's a lot of duplication across the lots. Deathwing Terminators can be used as regular Terminators or Terminator Wolf Guard, for example. Blood Angels have their own Tactical Marine kit is another example. Would the Terminator Wolf Guard be unique because the whole unit can field Power Swords, while only Sergeants can with the Codex Marines, but can still be build along either Terminator squad type? Wolf Pack kits are the same way, being able to take up any Veteran, Tactical, or Jumpless Assault Squad spot as well as the 3 SW datasheets the sprues are made for, but nobody else has anything similar to the Stormwolf.

As a side note of lists, this is what is on the shop page for total entries (note this will include books, upgrades, and kits which can be made in to two units):
Space Marines - 121
Ultramarines - 120 (-1)
Imperial Fists - 110 (-11)
Crimson Fists - *No Entry*
Black Templars - 99 (-22)
White Scars - 114 (-7)
Salamanders - 108 (-13)
Raven Guard - 109 (-12)
Space Wolves - 86 (-35)
Blood Angels - 122 (+1)
Dark Angels - 105 (-16)

But that's not removing stuff like datacards, transfer sheets, etc.

Charistoph wrote:So, it really depends on what is being used to define that 72%, and that goes for both of you.

That's fair enough, I'll post the metric of what units I've been counting for and against my DA and SW maths in spoilers. Bear in mind that I won't be including units that those Chapters realistically *should* have (so Stormtalons, Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, etc etc), but for certain units which don't need bespoke datasheets (like Interrogator Chaplains), I'll be flat out omitting those, and making a note of it in my analyses).

Dark Angels: That's 17 units out of 83 generic units (not counting the generic units that realistically should be added, as I said above).
17/83=~20% unique units
Adding in those generic units (Thunderfire, Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Assault and Devastator Centurions, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans and the Bike Captain - why do other Chapters get one, and not the DA? It wouldn't be hard to give them the <Ravenwing> and Jink rules), it goes to 17/91=~18%.

So, in all fairness, I was wrong about quoting 15% of unique units. I was off by 3%, and that's an unacceptable margin of error. I aim to use the correct total of 18% now. However, being off by 3% has not changed my general point that the vast majority of the Dark Angels book is made up of generic units.


As for Space Wolves, how I classify units will be rather reductive in places, as I feel that either more Chapters should have the ability to do it, or are "close enough". However, the Space Wolves are definitely *more* unique - whether they're "whole new Codex" unique is a different matter: Okay, I'll admit, this is by far the hardest one to make fit into the Codex: Space Marines template, and honestly, it might just well be worth this being the *only* First Founder to be treated differently, just because of how divergent they really are. Unlike other "unique" Chapters that tack on a few extra units to an otherwise generic book, and omit others for no reason, the Space Wolves change up how the generic units themselves are used. Honestly, in terms of unique units, there's not a whole lot going on (mostly just character, Thunderwolves and Wulfen), but there's core changes to several otherwise "generic" units (Tacticals, Assault Marines, Devastators - the holy trinity - and all Chaplains and Techmarines too, as well as others.)

But, I said I'd deliver so, I counted 24 out of 85 generic units (not counting generic ones that also ought to be there, as above)
24/85=~28% unique.
But, as I did for the DA, adding in those generic units (Thunderfire, Stormraven, Stormtalon, Centurions of both types, Vanguard and Sternguard, and Bike Captains/Wolf Lords), then we hit about 24/93=~25% unique.

So, again, off by 3%, this time the other way around - apologies for bad data. However, I fully admit that for many units, this is a bit of a stretch, even for me, and if there's any Chapter that should have a unique Codex out of simplicity and me not wanting to see genuinely unique mechanical functions lost, it's the Wolves.

So, TL;DR, the Dark Angels are between 18-20% unique, and the Space Wolves between 25-28% unique. My opinion is unchanged on the Dark Angels (and Blood Angels, I can't imagine they're too different from them), but I am far more lenient about the Space Wolves having their own Codex, from a mechanical and lore-based standpoint.

My objectives for streamlining were to bring the Space Marine Chapters that were easy to combine together, and the Space Wolves represent a wrench in that system which is more sensible to be removed from my objective goals than ground down to fit them.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Adding in those generic units (Thunderfire, Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Assault and Devastator Centurions, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans and the Bike Captain - why do other Chapters get one, and not the DA? It wouldn't be hard to give them the <Ravenwing> and Jink rules), it goes to 17/91=~18%

To answer the bit in bold - their "Bike Captain" gets to ride a Jetbike or a Land Speeder, as he is the Master of the Ravenwing...

General point, unrelated to the above - adding Primaris has massively messed with how unique the BA/DA/SW appear to be, as aside from slight renaming, and one or two gear options on characters or Sergeants, no effort has been made to make them unique (especially in the case of the SW). Looking at your DA list, I count 23 Primaris datasheets in there. I wasn't going to recount for SW, but it should be the same (I don't think they didn't get access to any of the over-inflated Marines).

Knocking them on the head, and even allowing for some dubious definitions on your list, and you end up with 17/60 unique for DA and 24/70 for SW - or 28% unique for DA and 34% for SW.

Which affects fielding successors, which both the codices are garbage for

 BroodSpawn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes only have 7 model kits.

And aren't a sub-faction of Marines, so your point is?

GK are marines though, and have the similar number of sets.

Karol wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes only have 7 model kits.

And aren't a sub-faction of Marines, so your point is?

GK are marines though, and have the similar number of sets.

GK are, I feel, divergent enough to remain their own Dex.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Karol wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes only have 7 model kits.

And aren't a sub-faction of Marines, so your point is?

GK are marines though, and have the similar number of sets.

GK are, I feel, divergent enough to remain their own Dex.

Thousand Sons are Marines too. Would be hard to roll them into Codex Astartes.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Karol wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Custodes only have 7 model kits.

And aren't a sub-faction of Marines, so your point is?

GK are marines though, and have the similar number of sets.

GK are, I feel, divergent enough to remain their own Dex.

Indeed. Not including the Characters, their Terminator Squad might be built for Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminator Squad and their Strike Squad MIGHT be built off as some of the more melee focused Marines of other chapters.

BUT

The only things currently shared on the purchase page are Techmarines, Servitors, Chaplain, Librarian, Razorback, Rhino, Dreadnoughts, Flyers, and Land Raiders. Now, out of the 25 in the group (including Characters), that's 16 of the mix, but the Vehicles will probably see the most use out of those, and that's 10 of that sub-group.

Outside of those listed above, their datasheets are so incredibly different that it just isn't a real contest other than putting "See Codex: Space Marines" for the above mentioned Techmarines, vehicles, and such. Nor have they introduced Primaris to the Chapter as yet.

Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Adding in those generic units (Thunderfire, Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Assault and Devastator Centurions, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans and the Bike Captain - why do other Chapters get one, and not the DA? It wouldn't be hard to give them the <Ravenwing> and Jink rules), it goes to 17/91=~18%

To answer the bit in bold - their "Bike Captain" gets to ride a Jetbike or a Land Speeder, as he is the Master of the Ravenwing...

There's no option for a "generic" Ravenwing Master? Not sure how I feel about that, even in armies with existing canon leaders (Calgar), you can still promote generic characters to those ranks (albeit not when he is present!)

General point, unrelated to the above - adding Primaris has massively messed with how unique the BA/DA/SW appear to be, as aside from slight renaming, and one or two gear options on characters or Sergeants, no effort has been made to make them unique (especially in the case of the SW). Looking at your DA list, I count 23 Primaris datasheets in there. I wasn't going to recount for SW, but it should be the same (I don't think they didn't get access to any of the over-inflated Marines).

Knocking them on the head, and even allowing for some dubious definitions on your list, and you end up with 17/60 unique for DA and 24/70 for SW - or 28% unique for DA and 34% for SW

Absolutely true, and while removing them does bump up the proportion of unique units to generic ones, I still believed that DA wouldn't exactly be unique at 28%, whereas Space Wolves probably would (mostly because of my aformentioned differences between how DA and SW implement their unique aspects - one taking otherwise specialist units and making them more specialist, and the other taking core units and putting a unique twist on them - the latter of which I feel is more "deserving" of a unique book).

But, all the same, GW *did* give Primaris to everyone and they are, for the most part, generic, for better or worse (I personally say for the better), but if it actually did turn out that DA/BA/SW didn't get Primaris and everyone else did, then I'd fully support them having unique Codexes, since they weren't sharing Primaris wargear, units, and stratagems.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Adding in those generic units (Thunderfire, Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Assault and Devastator Centurions, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans and the Bike Captain - why do other Chapters get one, and not the DA? It wouldn't be hard to give them the <Ravenwing> and Jink rules), it goes to 17/91=~18%

To answer the bit in bold - their "Bike Captain" gets to ride a Jetbike or a Land Speeder, as he is the Master of the Ravenwing...

There's no option for a "generic" Ravenwing Master? Not sure how I feel about that, even in armies with existing canon leaders (Calgar), you can still promote generic characters to those ranks (albeit not when he is present!)

There isn't currently a generic Master of the Ravenwing (on a bike) datasheet, mainly because the Jetbike and Land Speeder are relics that are akin to a badge of office for them (along with his sword, whose name escapes me at present).

Slayer makes an interesting point regarding Successor chapters - I wouldn't necessarily have anything against a Master on a Bike which, through keywords shenanigans, was at least blocked from being fielded at the same time as Sammael (who can basically represent any MotR within the DA across their history). I'd possibly go so far as having a Master on a Bike available to DA Successors only, but I'm undecided on that at the moment.

The upcoming FW book, which expands on the six Wings, could be useful/interesting - we know two of them are in use to the present day, but it'll be interesting to hear about the other four, and maybe why they seem to have faded from view.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Adding in those generic units (Thunderfire, Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Assault and Devastator Centurions, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans and the Bike Captain - why do other Chapters get one, and not the DA? It wouldn't be hard to give them the <Ravenwing> and Jink rules), it goes to 17/91=~18%

To answer the bit in bold - their "Bike Captain" gets to ride a Jetbike or a Land Speeder, as he is the Master of the Ravenwing...

There's no option for a "generic" Ravenwing Master? Not sure how I feel about that, even in armies with existing canon leaders (Calgar), you can still promote generic characters to those ranks (albeit not when he is present!)

There isn't currently a generic Master of the Ravenwing (on a bike) datasheet, mainly because the Jetbike and Land Speeder are relics that are akin to a badge of office for them (along with his sword, whose name escapes me at present).

Slayer makes an interesting point regarding Successor chapters - I wouldn't necessarily have anything against a Master on a Bike which, through keywords shenanigans, was at least blocked from being fielded at the same time as Sammael (who can basically represent any MotR within the DA across their history). I'd possibly go so far as having a Master on a Bike available to DA Successors only, but I'm undecided on that at the moment.

The upcoming FW book, which expands on the six Wings, could be useful/interesting - we know two of them are in use to the present day, but it'll be interesting to hear about the other four, and maybe why they seem to have faded from view.

You also forget the bike isn't going to be functioning all the time. You mean to tell me that the guy before Sammael died but the Jetbike was perfectly intact with no need for repairs.

Um nah I ain't buying that.

GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Exactly. I'm all for consolidating the dinky Inquisitor codex, Deathwatch, Sisters, and Grey Knights. It would STILL be significantly smaller than the current Marine codex.

Also just because it kinda fits the thread, the Vanguard crap having it's own Warlord traits and Psyker table? Yeah get rid of that bloat.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Adding in those generic units (Thunderfire, Stormtalon, Stormhawk, Assault and Devastator Centurions, Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans and the Bike Captain - why do other Chapters get one, and not the DA? It wouldn't be hard to give them the <Ravenwing> and Jink rules), it goes to 17/91=~18%

To answer the bit in bold - their "Bike Captain" gets to ride a Jetbike or a Land Speeder, as he is the Master of the Ravenwing...

There's no option for a "generic" Ravenwing Master? Not sure how I feel about that, even in armies with existing canon leaders (Calgar), you can still promote generic characters to those ranks (albeit not when he is present!)

There isn't currently a generic Master of the Ravenwing (on a bike) datasheet, mainly because the Jetbike and Land Speeder are relics that are akin to a badge of office for them (along with his sword, whose name escapes me at present).

Slayer makes an interesting point regarding Successor chapters - I wouldn't necessarily have anything against a Master on a Bike which, through keywords shenanigans, was at least blocked from being fielded at the same time as Sammael (who can basically represent any MotR within the DA across their history). I'd possibly go so far as having a Master on a Bike available to DA Successors only, but I'm undecided on that at the moment.

The upcoming FW book, which expands on the six Wings, could be useful/interesting - we know two of them are in use to the present day, but it'll be interesting to hear about the other four, and maybe why they seem to have faded from view.

You also forget the bike isn't going to be functioning all the time. You mean to tell me that the guy before Sammael died but the Jetbike was perfectly intact with no need for repairs.

Um nah I ain't buying that.

As it happens... yes? I think it was covered as a flashback in one of the books in the Legacy of Caliban BL anthology, but off the top of my head I can't remember which one.

Admittedly, I also can't remember how the previous Master died, but I don't think it was artillery or some super-weapon that you'd expect to destroy the bike.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Exactly. I'm all for consolidating the dinky Inquisitor codex, Deathwatch, Sisters, and Grey Knights. It would STILL be significantly smaller than the current Marine codex.

Also just because it kinda fits the thread, the Vanguard crap having it's own Warlord traits and Psyker table? Yeah get rid of that bloat.

Chuck in the assassins and the knights and call it agents of the imperium.

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Maybe tyranids don't deserv theirs? Just make them run their models as counts as orks or something. Same with eldar just one codex, no multiple separate books.

Karol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Maybe tyranids don't deserv theirs? Just make them run their models as counts as orks or something. Same with eldar just one codex, no multiple separate books.

Were Tyranids and Orks all part of the same organization at one time? No.

Grey Knights were part of the Daemonhunters and the Sisters were part of Witch Hunters, both of which were part of the Inquisition, and they were quite tiny there. They were also doing Allied rules before such concepts were brought in at 6th Edition.