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Karol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Maybe tyranids don't deserv theirs? Just make them run their models as counts as orks or something. Same with eldar just one codex, no multiple separate books.

The eldar should have 3 books. D eldar. Craftworlds, agents of the eldar that includes harlequins and all the ynarri stuff including how to combine forces from all 3 books under a single banner. Chuck in those dino riding eldar for fun too.

3 books for an entire ancient and split apart race.

As opposed to the imperiums proposed. 1 space marines 2 inquisition, 3 ad mech 4, astra militarum, 5 agents of. 5 books for a single united force.

Removed - Rule #1 please

That's just a symptom of the cycle GW has put themselves in. GW put out a lot of Marine material (models, books, etc), so it sold well. And because it sells well, GW continues to put out more and more material for them. If Eldar got the same attention that Marines got, they'd sell just as well. Same for any Faction.

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Exactly. I'm all for consolidating the dinky Inquisitor codex, Deathwatch, Sisters, and Grey Knights. It would STILL be significantly smaller than the current Marine codex.

Also just because it kinda fits the thread, the Vanguard crap having it's own Warlord traits and Psyker table? Yeah get rid of that bloat.

Chuck in the assassins and the knights and call it agents of the imperium.

Assassins yes. Knights need to have a section dedicated to how to switch keywords for using Chaos Knights, so that they get all the same goodies that Loyalist scum get. The Chaos Knight codex as is was a total sham and cash grab reminiscent of the Legion of the Damned "codex" made for 6th edition.

 flandarz wrote:
That's just a symptom of the cycle GW has put themselves in. GW put out a lot of Marine material (models, books, etc), so it sold well. And because it sells well, GW continues to put out more and more material for them. If Eldar got the same attention that Marines got, they'd sell just as well. Same for any Faction.

That’s debatable. How much is the cycle and how much is Marines being a good seller is debatable.

However, the cycle most certainly EXISTS, it’s just a question of how much.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Maybe tyranids don't deserv theirs? Just make them run their models as counts as orks or something. Same with eldar just one codex, no multiple separate books.

The eldar should have 3 books. D eldar. Craftworlds, agents of the eldar that includes harlequins and all the ynarri stuff including how to combine forces from all 3 books under a single banner. Chuck in those dino riding eldar for fun too.

3 books for an entire ancient and split apart race.

As opposed to the imperiums proposed. 1 space marines 2 inquisition, 3 ad mech 4, astra militarum, 5 agents of. 5 books for a single united force.

Suck it up butter cup.

Eldar just doesn't sell enough. Suck it up.

Pretty sure Sisters of Battle has proven that if they make it, people will buy. It's a self fulfilling prophecy of "we don't sell enough to make more, but people don't buy any because they're old so we don't make more because it doesn't sell etc"

 NurglesR0T wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Maybe tyranids don't deserv theirs? Just make them run their models as counts as orks or something. Same with eldar just one codex, no multiple separate books.

The eldar should have 3 books. D eldar. Craftworlds, agents of the eldar that includes harlequins and all the ynarri stuff including how to combine forces from all 3 books under a single banner. Chuck in those dino riding eldar for fun too.

3 books for an entire ancient and split apart race.

As opposed to the imperiums proposed. 1 space marines 2 inquisition, 3 ad mech 4, astra militarum, 5 agents of. 5 books for a single united force.

Suck it up butter cup.

Eldar just doesn't sell enough. Suck it up.

Pretty sure Sisters of Battle has proven that if they make it, people will buy. It's a self fulfilling prophecy of "we don't sell enough to make more, but people don't buy any because they're old so we don't make more because it doesn't sell etc"

Except we don't know how many Sisters force sets were created to be sold. If just 100 were made, for example, then how are we able to be certain it was a great investment?

That's fair, JNA, but I'd say plastering Marines on pretty much everything GW does, giving them the widest range of models, making them the focus of every BL novel, and pushing the narrative that Marines are the defacto protagonists on 40k is certainly a large contributor.

 Charistoph wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Maybe tyranids don't deserv theirs? Just make them run their models as counts as orks or something. Same with eldar just one codex, no multiple separate books.

Were Tyranids and Orks all part of the same organization at one time? No.

Grey Knights were part of the Daemonhunters and the Sisters were part of Witch Hunters, both of which were part of the Inquisition, and they were quite tiny there. They were also doing Allied rules before such concepts were brought in at 6th Edition.

*cough*

There have been fewer editions without some form of Ally rules than there have been with them. Even excluding DH/WH shenanigans, at a bare minimum 2nd, 6th, 7th & 8th have featured allies, and I think they were a thing in RT too.

Allow for DH & WH as limited allies, and 3rd, 4th and 5th editions have some form of Allies, for some period of time.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
GK don't deserve their own dex. GK deserve to be a part of a inquisition dex that includes other forces that can be mixed and matched. They are too specialized a force with too few units to justify being their own entire codex.

Maybe tyranids don't deserv theirs? Just make them run their models as counts as orks or something. Same with eldar just one codex, no multiple separate books.

Were Tyranids and Orks all part of the same organization at one time? No.

Grey Knights were part of the Daemonhunters and the Sisters were part of Witch Hunters, both of which were part of the Inquisition, and they were quite tiny there. They were also doing Allied rules before such concepts were brought in at 6th Edition.

*cough*

There have been fewer editions without some form of Ally rules than there have been with them. Even excluding DH/WH shenanigans, at a bare minimum 2nd, 6th, 7th & 8th have featured allies, and I think they were a thing in RT too.

Allow for DH & WH as limited allies, and 3rd, 4th and 5th editions have some form of Allies, for some period of time.

For the sake of less bloat though, returning to the previous form of codex organization with slightly further consolidation is a good to create less printed material.

 Dysartes wrote:
There have been fewer editions without some form of Ally rules than there have been with them. Even excluding DH/WH shenanigans, at a bare minimum 2nd, 6th, 7th & 8th have featured allies, and I think they were a thing in RT too.

Allow for DH & WH as limited allies, and 3rd, 4th and 5th editions have some form of Allies, for some period of time.

I've only heard of 2nd Edition through anecdote with the Chaos and Ork codices. Nobody has mentioned allies there (probably because armies were generally smaller), or were Chaos or Orks given the option there. Not to mention, 8th Edition has a closer relationship to 3rd Edition than it does to 2nd, to say nothing of 6th & 7th.

Even from there, I still think that separating out the Inquisition was a "Bad Idea", even if they no longer need to worry about their ally rules to date. Ad Mech I can kind of see keeping separate so long as they were merged with the Knights (being able to be their Troops/LoD for each other, respectively).

I'm not sure what - if any - Ally options Chaos and Orks had, without going and finding my copies of the books.

Another point of inaccuracy from your previous post was that the SoB had always been the Chamber Militant for the Hereticus - in actual fact, they've always been the military arm of the church, not the Inquisition, outside of that one Witchhunters codex, as they were the loophole to get around the restriction the church faces about having "No man under arms", or something like that.

It was only the WH book that pushed them as a Chamber Militant - I'd argue/accept that they often would provide support for Inquisitors, particularly those that go after heretics, but they don't serve them.

 Dysartes wrote:
Another point of inaccuracy from your previous post was that the SoB had always been the Chamber Militant for the Hereticus - in actual fact, they've always been the military arm of the church, not the Inquisition, outside of that one Witchhunters codex, as they were the loophole to get around the restriction the church faces about having "No man under arms", or something like that.

It was only the WH book that pushed them as a Chamber Militant - I'd argue/accept that they often would provide support for Inquisitors, particularly those that go after heretics, but they don't serve them.

Check what I posted again. The term "always" was not used, just "were"/"was". That is perfectly accurate.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm not sure what - if any - Ally options Chaos and Orks had, without going and finding my copies of the books.

Another point of inaccuracy from your previous post was that the SoB had always been the Chamber Militant for the Hereticus - in actual fact, they've always been the military arm of the church, not the Inquisition, outside of that one Witchhunters codex, as they were the loophole to get around the restriction the church faces about having "No man under arms", or something like that.

It was only the WH book that pushed them as a Chamber Militant - I'd argue/accept that they often would provide support for Inquisitors, particularly those that go after heretics, but they don't serve them.

What the actual organization is for the Sisters is irrelevant. What IS relevant is previous organization of the codices.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm not sure what - if any - Ally options Chaos and Orks had, without going and finding my copies of the books.

Another point of inaccuracy from your previous post was that the SoB had always been the Chamber Militant for the Hereticus - in actual fact, they've always been the military arm of the church, not the Inquisition, outside of that one Witchhunters codex, as they were the loophole to get around the restriction the church faces about having "No man under arms", or something like that.

It was only the WH book that pushed them as a Chamber Militant - I'd argue/accept that they often would provide support for Inquisitors, particularly those that go after heretics, but they don't serve them.

What the actual organization is for the Sisters is irrelevant. What IS relevant is previous organization of the codices.

I would say thats not really important either. Whats REALLY important is what makes the most sense right NOW.

GK are falling behind with too few units and too specialized options. They don't fit with the rest of the SM and they don't have enough to sustain their own book. They fit in perfectly with the inquisition and other agents of the imperium. They have a place, it's just not their own book.

All of the factions that are even MOAR marines are ridiculous. Marines are already ridiculous, but the GK and DW are beyond the pale. DW and GK jobs should just be done by marines. I don't think DW or GK should exist.

Martel732 wrote:
All of the factions that are even MOAR marines are ridiculous. Marines are already ridiculous, but the GK and DW are beyond the pale. DW and GK jobs should just be done by marines. I don't think DW or GK should exist.

I can see the argument on your side for Deathwatch stuff (and honestly I'm for removing the Primaris stuff from them for better tracking and balancing of rules for a consolidated Inquisition I've bee. talking about), but GKs are a whole different matter. They're definitely something that can't be replicated compared to the "unqiue" crap that the Angels have or even the Space Wolves.

I don't care if they can be replicated. All the "moar elite than the marines" factions are too stupid to live. Marines are already mary sue elite. IG hunt demons just fine with artillery. There's nothing even special about the GK mechanically vs demons that really makes them stand out. IH are much better at hunting everything. I don't want GK consolidated, I want them squatted along with DW.

Lance845 wrote:I would say thats not really important either. Whats REALLY important is what makes the most sense right NOW.

GK are falling behind with too few units and too specialized options. They don't fit with the rest of the SM and they don't have enough to sustain their own book. They fit in perfectly with the inquisition and other agents of the imperium. They have a place, it's just not their own book.

*cough* Knights *cough*

Martel732 wrote:I don't care if they can be replicated. All the "moar elite than the marines" factions are too stupid to live. Marines are already mary sue elite. IG hunt demons just fine with artillery. There's nothing even special about the GK mechanically vs demons that really makes them stand out. IH are much better at hunting everything. I don't want GK consolidated, I want them squatted along with DW.

Do you want that many Force Weapons opened up to the Ultramarines?

If GW wants such a specialized force of Marines, that's understandable, but it does make more sense to have them just as compartmentalized instead of their own independent force. Keeping them in the Inquisition makes organizational sense, even now.

Dont need force weapons vs demons. Theres too few gk to be meaningful anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Dont need force weapons vs demons. Theres too few gk to be meaningful anyway.

You do vs all of the multi-wound ones.

There's actually a lot of them.

GK Force Weapons are something of a weird relic. Initially force weapons were dedicated anti-daemon weapons in earlier editions. Eventually as editions came and went, the mechanics changed to "insta-kill big beasty things with a pyschic test" power weapons (which didn't ignore invul saves and Daemons were immune to ID, ironically making Force Weapons utterly pointless against Daemons), and now they're just multidamage power weapons that aren't particularly specialized at anything but hit harder than a typical power sword or the like.

That said, GK's really should be part of a combined Inquisition book, they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, having them gallavant around on their own is a bit silly. From GW's "we don't make a game for competitions but instead narrative gameplay" they should be murder on Chaos stuff and psykers, and out of their element against other foes.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they can be replicated. All the "moar elite than the marines" factions are too stupid to live. Marines are already mary sue elite. IG hunt demons just fine with artillery. There's nothing even special about the GK mechanically vs demons that really makes them stand out. IH are much better at hunting everything. I don't want GK consolidated, I want them squatted along with DW.

I hate snowflake marines just as much as the next guy but...GK are the most unique space marine chapter and they are special. The are immune to the taint of the warp. I'd be totally fine with them just being choices inside an inquisition codex though.

Are they, though? I dont see anything special about double downing on the MOAR ELITE power fantasy.

Martel732 wrote:
Are they, though? I dont see anything special about double downing on the MOAR ELITE power fantasy.

Eh, there could be enough space for something between Marines and Custodes. The D6 really limited that though.

The squatting of individual codices I'm down for though, it just seems we disagree on how to do it.

I'd like to see something between guardsmen and marines. Like maybe guardsmen in power armor ala starcraft marines. The game focus too much on imperial elites already. There aren't enough marines to appear in even 1% of the battles. They shouldn't be a focus.

BA should probably be squatted too by the bugs. That bit of fanfiction, what I read of it, was absurd.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd like to see something between guardsmen and marines. Like maybe guardsmen in power armor ala starcraft marines. The game focus too much on imperial elites already. There aren't enough marines to appear in even 1% of the battles. They shouldn't be a focus.

BA should probably be squatted too by the bugs. That bit of fanfiction, what I read of it, was absurd.

That's kinda what Sisters and Scions do.

It is, but I mean as a primary army that gets deployed and used.

Martel732 wrote:
It is, but I mean as a primary army that gets deployed and used.

So, Scions and Sisters then.

People do play those armies. And if your complaint is "not enough people do", what's your solution, one Space Marine player per store?

I mean fully fleshed out armies with model lines like space marines. For as few marines as GW claims there are, they would not have the insane variety of units and equipment.

My primary solution is chop a lot of marine power armor out of the game. Like killing off BA completely with the bugs. And get rid of SW because SW.

Martel732 wrote:
I mean fully fleshed out armies with model lines like space marines.

What part of the Sisters range isn't fully fleshed out? (obviously talking about in early 2020, when their army is finally given the multipart plastic kit treatment).

And I'd say the Scions have a fleshed out list, maybe not a Marine levels, but then hardly ANY factions are at Marine levels, except maybe Chaos Space Marines - they have leaders, infantry, both ground and aerial vehicles, and even support units. Who cares if they don't have dedicated Heavy Supports and Fast Attacks?