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This may be the first book in 8th that I dont buy retail, and simply scan the rules.
After the middling PR book that baffled Eldar players in how bad the fluff and how mediocre the rules are, and with the confirmation that the BT rules will be in the book, I think anyone would be well within their rights to say as a Chaos player, not to expect absolutely anything in the realm of great. At best, a side grade, not doing lick to fix the problems the factions faced with codex creep.

I would think those who buy it are the ones who have content in the book. I don't play Eldar, so I didn't get PR. I do play BT, so I will get the F&F book. I don't play BA or Nids, so I won't be getting the following book.

With the amount of books we end up "needing" to get, I can appreciate the burnout factor when one of the books is lackluster.

What im saying is, im dubious that the content the other half of F&F will even be worth it. We know from.the suppliments that BT will for sure get all their goodies, but ill eat my words if Chaos gets more than a handful of pages out of the book.

It would be nice if chaos got something, but it probably won’t be more than a couple pages per chaos faction in the book as there are going to be quite a few chaos factions in the book. I won’t be buying it because my chaos are black legion and not in the book.

At least you guys are actually getting content in it. They threw a Fleur on the promotional materials and expected that to be enough to trick sisters player to pick it up with their box set.

Well not today satan.

Don't be fooled! 9th is upon us! Do not fall for their tricksey ways!

*Crier brought to you by Our Martyred Lady of the 8th Edition Cult*

Whilst I applaud your skepticism for GW to do a decent job, there is a dim light at the end of this tunnel. Legion Tactics are for the most part just bad. It's difficult to go anywhere but up when you're one rung above the bottom (sorry GK). CSM are still paying for the sins of 3.5, much like how Grey Knights are for 5th. Maybe in 11th edition we will be able to keep up with IG, Eldar and loyalists again.

Well since they are leaving the awful traits as is that dumpster can keep burning.

I dunno stratigiums can make a biiiiig differance.

Chaos may be the 'pantheon' but nay...they shall not have soup!

Given the recent debacle with how Chaos have been treated...third attempt in the same edition..I won't be holding much breath.

CSM will never be on par with loyalists...GW are still trying to pay for their sins by never letting a repeat performance of the Eye of Terror campaign many a moon ago by making CSM the whipping boy of 40K.

Also, having CSM actually be viable detracts from factions they would prefer to sell i.e. embrace your new Phobos pattern overlords.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Chaos may be the 'pantheon' but nay...they shall not have soup!

Given the recent debacle with how Chaos have been treated...third attempt in the same edition..I won't be holding much breath.

CSM will never be on par with loyalists...GW are still trying to pay for their sins by never letting a repeat performance of the Eye of Terror campaign many a moon ago by making CSM the whipping boy of 40K.

Also, having CSM actually be viable detracts from factions they would prefer to sell i.e. embrace your new Phobos pattern overlords.

most of the phobos marine units are meh dude. eliminators are amazing, but the rest? specialist units that won't see wide spread use.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Chaos may be the 'pantheon' but nay...they shall not have soup!

Given the recent debacle with how Chaos have been treated...third attempt in the same edition..I won't be holding much breath.

CSM will never be on par with loyalists...GW are still trying to pay for their sins by never letting a repeat performance of the Eye of Terror campaign many a moon ago by making CSM the whipping boy of 40K.

Also, having CSM actually be viable detracts from factions they would prefer to sell i.e. embrace your new Phobos pattern overlords.

So the last year or so of marines be terrible and chaos being far better just stop existing because marines got a good codex?

Sure, Jan.

 vaklor4 wrote:
After the middling PR book

I think calling PR "middling" is pretty damn generous.

As for Faith and Fury, all I'll say is that it's at least unlikely to be worse than PR, given that the bar has already been set so low that it's intruding on Satan's basement.

ERJAK wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Chaos may be the 'pantheon' but nay...they shall not have soup!

Given the recent debacle with how Chaos have been treated...third attempt in the same edition..I won't be holding much breath.

CSM will never be on par with loyalists...GW are still trying to pay for their sins by never letting a repeat performance of the Eye of Terror campaign many a moon ago by making CSM the whipping boy of 40K.

Also, having CSM actually be viable detracts from factions they would prefer to sell i.e. embrace your new Phobos pattern overlords.

So the last year or so of marines be terrible and chaos being far better just stop existing because marines got a good codex?

Sure, Jan.

1. Loyalists have always been good. Guilliman Garage, Blood Angels Smash Captains, their own bigger souping, etc. etc.

2. CSM has only ever been powerful in two ways. Either by spamming, or by souping. It's never been a case like Eldar where we have a bunch of great units, Chaos being meta has basically meant taking masses of 2-3 troop options between 3 books, guided by primarchs, abbadon, ahriman, pick your poison. The actual meat of the codex has been pretty tame, if not dare I say lame by current standards.

3. Space Marines aren't just "good" now, they outright bloated Space Marines beyond comprehension. They're overpowered, and are bar none the best faction right now. They are consuming the meta, and with every suppliment take just a slightly larger chunk out of it. Go read the data for yourself, it's damning.

I want Chaos to be fine. Updated, but not overpowered. I'm not looking to go to tournaments, i'm looking to face my Space Marine and Eldar friends in casual games without having to ask them to make their lists bad on purpose, so I don't have ad nauseum HQ choices and cultists.

 vaklor4 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Chaos may be the 'pantheon' but nay...they shall not have soup!

Given the recent debacle with how Chaos have been treated...third attempt in the same edition..I won't be holding much breath.

CSM will never be on par with loyalists...GW are still trying to pay for their sins by never letting a repeat performance of the Eye of Terror campaign many a moon ago by making CSM the whipping boy of 40K.

Also, having CSM actually be viable detracts from factions they would prefer to sell i.e. embrace your new Phobos pattern overlords.

So the last year or so of marines be terrible and chaos being far better just stop existing because marines got a good codex?

Sure, Jan.

1. Loyalists have always been good. Guilliman Garage, Blood Angels Smash Captains, their own bigger souping, etc. etc.

2. CSM has only ever been powerful in two ways. Either by spamming, or by souping. It's never been a case like Eldar where we have a bunch of great units, Chaos being meta has basically meant taking masses of 2-3 troop options between 3 books, guided by primarchs, abbadon, ahriman, pick your poison. The actual meat of the codex has been pretty tame, if not dare I say lame by current standards.

3. Space Marines aren't just "good" now, they outright bloated Space Marines beyond comprehension. They're overpowered, and are bar none the best faction right now. They are consuming the meta, and with every suppliment take just a slightly larger chunk out of it. Go read the data for yourself, it's damning.

I want Chaos to be fine. Updated, but not overpowered. I'm not looking to go to tournaments, i'm looking to face my Space Marine and Eldar friends in casual games without having to ask them to make their lists bad on purpose, so I don't have ad nauseum HQ choices and cultists.

hold up mate dont you know that bcoz mehreens were week you cant complain about them anymore. check ur privilge ok?

 vaklor4 wrote:
What im saying is, im dubious that the content the other half of F&F will even be worth it. We know from.the suppliments that BT will for sure get all their goodies, but ill eat my words if Chaos gets more than a handful of pages out of the book.

Thats a fair question. A buddy of mine who plays both Eldar and CSM pretty much always gets his butt kicked when he plays CSM against anyone in our group. Necrons, AM, my BT, and even DA. My hopes for the BT content have been dampened by the fact we aren't getting squat in the way of new characters or updated models, but perhaps the reworked rules will make up for it.

Back to your point though, I can understand why CSM players aren't thrilled right now. At least based on my personal experience of seeing how bad my buddy gets stomped all the time.

ERJAK wrote:
So the last year or so of marines be terrible and chaos being far better just stop existing because marines got a good codex?

Sure, Jan.

I love this kind of logic.

'Your codex was good for a month, therefore your faction must be horrible for at least a year!'

But hey, on the plus side, Chaos has been so gakky that I haven't bought anything in several months, so I'm saving money, thanks GW!

The Eldar rules in Faith and Fury are great, and there is some really cool thematic stuff.

if your only concern is the top of the meta than it might not be for you. Chasing the top list is only one aspect of the hobby.

 vaklor4 wrote:
What im saying is, im dubious that the content the other half of F&F will even be worth it. We know from.the suppliments that BT will for sure get all their goodies, but ill eat my words if Chaos gets more than a handful of pages out of the book.

How much, ruleswise, do you think these supplements for Marines had?

 Kanluwen wrote:
How much, ruleswise, do you think these supplements for Marines had?

Enhanced Chapter Tactics - to be fair, this would have been enough, but GW went further!
Doctrines
Super Doctrines
New units
New stratagems
New Relics
New Category of Relics that can be given to squad leaders
Custom Chapter Traits

That's off the top of my head.

ERJAK wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Chaos may be the 'pantheon' but nay...they shall not have soup!

Given the recent debacle with how Chaos have been treated...third attempt in the same edition..I won't be holding much breath.

CSM will never be on par with loyalists...GW are still trying to pay for their sins by never letting a repeat performance of the Eye of Terror campaign many a moon ago by making CSM the whipping boy of 40K.

Also, having CSM actually be viable detracts from factions they would prefer to sell i.e. embrace your new Phobos pattern overlords.

So the last year or so of marines be terrible and chaos being far better just stop existing because marines got a good codex?

Sure, Jan.

Firstborn were still better than the new CSM codex through sheer variety of choices alone.

Trust me, Disco Lords and semi-decent Havocs a great codex maketh not.

there are eldar rules in faith and fury?

Karol wrote:
there are eldar rules in faith and fury?

No, I think it was either sarcasm, or getting book titles mixed up.

Im not going to go through what makes CSM bad. Instead ill give reasons why the chaos release was a curse in disguise.

1. You got nerfed if you were a non-BL legion. Cultists went from ok to just CP fodder once they lost their traits.
2. The new renegades with enhanced traits that are far superior to legions? Fantastic until you learn how naked your codex feels without the best stratagem in the entire book.
3. Codex 2.0 hoooly crap. It changed absolutely nothing aside from consolidating the new units in, and adding CA points...which wasnt even correct. The oblits were still 65ppm, meaning not only was the book incorrect but for about a week or two oblits were broken beyons reason.

On the positive side! All the new models are fantastic. As a painter im in love with Shadowspear and the Vigilus units. But as a player, it feels like after the dust really settled, Lord Discordants were the only thing that actually made the book even better, and as ive said in a previous post, the last thing CSM needed was another fringe meta list of spamming the best HQ choice.

Im not angry at a lack of new models, or new rules. But GW has so far done nothing but add new, slightly better rules onto tbe foundation of the now oldest codex in the line. Its rules bloat to mask codex creep.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How much, ruleswise, do you think these supplements for Marines had?

Enhanced Chapter Tactics - to be fair, this would have been enough, but GW went further!

Not in the supplements. These were in the codex, and all of the Chapter Tactics were "enhanced" for good or ill. See: Raven Guard losing -1 to be hit and instead getting Cover or -1 to be hit if in cover and Infantry.

Doctrines

Again, not in the supplements. Codex.

Super Doctrines

Not really "super" Doctrines, but okay. These actually are in the supplements and do nothing but add an extra caveat to the army while utilizing the Doctrines.

New units

Codex--also most were available in the PDF they released.

New stratagems

Too vague of a statement--but sure, yes. These are in the supplement and codex.

New Relics

Yes, in the supplement and codex...although if you want to get technical about it, there were only a few actual new ones in the Codex.

New Category of Relics that can be given to squad leaders

Yes, with a Stratagem--and it restricts the list of things they can get.

Custom Chapter Traits

Which aren't in the supplements, but rather the Codex itself.

That's off the top of my head.

Highly suggest doing some research in the future then. A lot of the stuff you listed has nothing to do with the supplements and everything to do with the codex.

All told, there's 11 pages in the Raven Guard supplement that are actually rules. That's 2 pages(being generous here as the page with his points is wildly wasteful) of Kayvaan Shrike.
That's 1 page for "The Sons of Corax", effectively regurgitating how a Detachment is formed, how Successor Chapters work, stratagems, relics, warlord traits, etc. The only new thing here is "Surgical Strikes"(their 'super doctrine' as you put it), 1 page for Warlord Traits, 1 page for Relics of the Ravenspire(which aren't able to be taken by Successor Chapters), 1 page for Special-Issue Wargear(which can be taken by Raven Guard and Successor Characters), 2 pages of Stratagems(including "Favour of the Ravenspire" to give a Sergeant Master-Crafted Weapon, Digital Weapons, Silentus Pistol, or Korvidari Bolts and Token of Brotherhood allowing a single Relic of the Ravenspire instead of a Special-Issue Wargear), 1 page for Umbramancy Discipline, and 1 page for Tactical Objectives.

64 page book and 11 pages is rules. There isn't as much in these books as you seem to believe--albeit likely that it might be more than present in a book that's crammed who knows how many factions in.

And within those 11 pages they rocket higher up the power creep scale than most of anyrhing in the game this edition. It isnt healthy. But thats not the exact point of this thread.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Highly suggest doing some research in the future then. A lot of the stuff you listed has nothing to do with the supplements and everything to do with the codex.

You're right, I should have recognized the pathetically pedantic gotcha moment you were building up to, well done sir.

Hopefully I won't fall into your next semantic trap you wily forum warrior.

 vaklor4 wrote:
And within those 11 pages they rocket higher up the power creep scale than most of anyrhing in the game this edition. It isnt healthy. But thats not the exact point of this thread.

No, "the exact point of this thread" is complaining about something that isn't even out yet and about how you're already positive that you're getting screwed over.

That about right?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
And within those 11 pages they rocket higher up the power creep scale than most of anyrhing in the game this edition. It isnt healthy. But thats not the exact point of this thread.

No, "the exact point of this thread" is complaining about something that isn't even out yet and about how you're already positive that you're getting screwed over.

That about right?

Says the guy using semantics to defend a toxic addition to the game? Yep.

CSM are in direct contrast to SM it terms of release this past summer. Both got big releases, but they could not be more different in terms of helping the faction out.

Yes this thread is salt, a soap box of salt. But you cannot say my arguement for guessing that F&F wont do much is invalid entirely after CSM 2.0, and Pheonix Rising.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, "the exact point of this thread" is complaining about something that isn't even out yet and about how you're already positive that you're getting screwed over.

That about right?

Oh Kan, you seem to have your hand on the pulse of design, what are we getting?

Are we getting any of the following:
Enhanced Legion Traits - no, because that would leave all the unaddressed Legions, specifically that Black one, out in the cold. Pretty sure that's not happening.
Doctrine equivalents - no, see above.
General CSM enhancements - no, see above.
Super Doctrines - no, see above.

We are getting what they stated, period.
Character model - probably a re-print.
New models for maybe a single new squad - optimistic
Warlord traits for the legions included, guarantee no more than 1 each. Maybe, *maybe* they'll be Legion specific.
New stratagems for the legions included, again, no more than 1 each.

So yeah, we're getting some stuff, we get to re-arrange deck chairs, woo!