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 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, "the exact point of this thread" is complaining about something that isn't even out yet and about how you're already positive that you're getting screwed over.

That about right?

Oh Kan, you seem to have your hand on the pulse of design, what are we getting?

Are we getting any of the following:
Enhanced Legion Traits - no, because that would leave all the unaddressed Legions, specifically that Black one, out in the cold. Pretty sure that's not happening.
Doctrine equivalents - no, see above.
General CSM enhancements - no, see above.
Super Doctrines - no, see above.

We are getting what they stated, period.
Character model - probably a re-print.
New models for maybe a single new squad - optimistic
Warlord traits for the legions included, guarantee no more than 1 each. Maybe, *maybe* they'll be Legion specific.
New stratagems for the legions included, again, no more than 1 each.

So yeah, we're getting some stuff, we get to re-arrange deck chairs, woo!

Im a little more optomistic in the amount we will get, but a relic, 2-3 strats and a WL trait is all I see happening per legion.

Bare in mind, and this goes for Kan too, I WANT to be wrong. I want my foot in my mouth and the dunce cap on my head when the book comes out. I want the book to be good and for my opinion to be entirely invalid and just salt.

But I doubt that i'll be proven wrong.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Highly suggest doing some research in the future then. A lot of the stuff you listed has nothing to do with the supplements and everything to do with the codex.

You're right, I should have recognized the pathetically pedantic gotcha moment you were building up to, well done sir.

Hopefully I won't fall into your next semantic trap you wily forum warrior.

Seeing as how I asked a very specific question("How much, ruleswise, do you think these supplements for Marines had?") and you chose instead to respond to something entirely different? You really were slated for a pedantic "gotcha" moment.

How many pages did the Black Legion get in Vigilus Ablaze? Renegades? I don't own the book, but from what I can tell from the product page--it seems pretty damn on par with what the Supplements gave Marines. Renegades and Black Legion each got 8 Stratagems, 6 Warlord Traits, 6 Relics, and 6 Tactical Objectives from what the product page says--going off my Raven Guard supplement, I got a similar bit of stuff just with the addition of the Special Issue Wargear bumping it to 14 Relics instead of 6(there's 8 SIW items, but it seems like only 4 are allowed to be taken with the stratagem that grants them), 6 more Stratagems, and a Librarius Lore.

The big issue though is the Specialist Detachments that were in Vigilus Ablaze. I genuinely don't know if those were 100% Chaos Space Marines or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
And within those 11 pages they rocket higher up the power creep scale than most of anyrhing in the game this edition. It isnt healthy. But thats not the exact point of this thread.

No, "the exact point of this thread" is complaining about something that isn't even out yet and about how you're already positive that you're getting screwed over.

That about right?

Says the guy using semantics to defend a toxic addition to the game? Yep.

I asked how many pages of rules people thought the supplements provided. He chose to list off everything. Not my fault that he ran his mouth.

CSM are in direct contrast to SM it terms of release this past summer. Both got big releases, but they could not be more different in terms of helping the faction out.

Yes this thread is salt, a soap box of salt. But you cannot say my arguement for guessing that F&F wont do much is invalid entirely after CSM 2.0, and Pheonix Rising.

And this is exactly what you need to recognize right here and now:
Codex: Space Marines? Whole new cover, everything. CSM? Just "2.0!"

I've been suspecting for awhile that the Psychic Awakening books are placeholders/playtesting books for an actual new wave of codices next year. Phoenix Rising definitely seemed to follow that train of thought.

I mean, did people seriously not take notice of the fact that we got two codices and that's been it? That the next codex release is Sisters of Battle, tied to the Army Pack? That we're seeing a lot of little bits and bobs updated/spread out via WD?

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean, did people seriously not take notice of the fact that we got two codices and that's been it? That the next codex release is Sisters of Battle, tied to the Army Pack?

Seems like a missed marketing opportunity if that's the case.

Not to mention PA is slated to run through next year, so even you're right, it's not happening next year.

So, yeah, probably not Kan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Seeing as how I asked a very specific question("How much, ruleswise, do you think these supplements for Marines had?") and you chose instead to respond to something entirely different?

You're right, I only included the stuff that has warped the meta so hard that it's not even worth putting CSM on the table, my bad.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean, did people seriously not take notice of the fact that we got two codices and that's been it? That the next codex release is Sisters of Battle, tied to the Army Pack?

Seems like a missed marketing opportunity if that's the case.

Not to mention PA is slated to run through next year, so even you're right, it's not happening next year.

So, yeah, probably not Kan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Seeing as how I asked a very specific question("How much, ruleswise, do you think these supplements for Marines had?") and you chose instead to respond to something entirely different?

You're right, I only included the stuff that has warped the meta so hard that it's not even worth putting CSM on the table, my bad.

I also don't agree on these being 'a testing ground for new codices' on the simple basis that what we're seeing is anemic at best and irrelevant at worst.

Not that many Eldar players seem to have even bothered with PA one and I haven't heard any significant rumblings about any of the included rules. How can you test for new codexes when no one is bothering with your new rules.

Yeah, I don't buy the whole 'testing future codexes' thing either. I actually think that only Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines will get their own full fledged Codexes and supplements for Chapters/Legions by this time next year.

Psychic Awakening feels like the quickly invalidated book rush at the end of an edition to me.

 Eldarain wrote:
Psychic Awakening feels like the quickly invalidated book rush at the end of an edition to me.

I agree. It feels similar to the Chaos Legions at the end of 7th, and the Ynarri silliness. I do hope I'm wrong, and everyone gets something for once.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
So the last year or so of marines be terrible and chaos being far better just stop existing because marines got a good codex?

Sure, Jan.

I love this kind of logic.

'Your codex was good for a month, therefore your faction must be horrible for at least a year!'

But hey, on the plus side, Chaos has been so gakky that I haven't bought anything in several months, so I'm saving money, thanks GW!

Do try to read the discussion you're responding to. The claim was that Chaos Marines always are the whipping boys to Vanilla Marines; pointing out that CSM have been better than Vanilla Marines for the last year refutes that. There's no argument about what Chaos should be like, you added that strawman yourself.