Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm a huge fanatic for the MCU, and now that we're past Endgame it's left me wondering about how they're going to tackle future crossover films without the original 3. Downey, Evans and Hemsworth were, as far as I'm concerned, like capturing lightning in a bottle. Not just because they embodied their respective characters so well, but because they also had fantastic chemistry together. I find myself seriously doubting I'll be as invested in any future crossover movies without them involved. While I do like most of the heroes that came after, I just don't feel as strongly about any of them as I do the OG heroes.

What are your thoughts gents?

You didn't start with those feelings. The MCU built you up to them. Why do you think they would be incapable of building again?

Oh 100% agreed I did not feel the same way about those characters at first, I won't refute that at all. The reason i doubt they're incapable of doing it again is because... thus far, they haven't. I dig Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, Strange, etc., but I just can't see those newer characters sell me on a crossover movie like the OG heroes. I can't really see them banter in the way that Tony, Cap, and Thor have, they just don't seem to have the chemistry to do it. Maybe I'm being unfair?

I dunno, I do think Cumberbatch's Strange has what it takes. Maybe Ant-Man. The other new heroes, not so much

I think Strange and Spiderman / Strange and Scarlet Witch is going to be fine. I think Black Panther with the new Cap (Flacon or Winter Soldier... we will see at the end of the D+ show) would work fine. Antman meshes well with everyone.

Now toss in the eventual Fantastic 4 (hopefully as teenagers), x-men (hopefully as teenagers), Khamala Khan (a teenager), She Hulk, Moon Knight, and the new upcoming Ghost Rider.

Shang Chi, The Eternals, Adam Warlock (presumably in Guardians 3).

We are literally spoiled for choice for team ups.

Yeah, while I don't want to discredit the impact that the OG actors and characters have done in establishing the MCU, they've more or less refined the formula at this point, and since the casting has still been pretty on point so far, I don't see them having too much difficulty in setting up the new roster or next gen of heroes to succeed them. Especially since some of them, like Spider Man in this instance, were intrinsically tied to the OG heroes as their effective successors.

And lets remember. In 15-20 years they can just have the x-men do onslaught with Franklin Richards calling in Heroes Reborn and they can recast and reintroduce Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, and Thor.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, while I don't want to discredit the impact that the OG actors and characters have done in establishing the MCU, they've more or less refined the formula at this point, and since the casting has still been pretty on point so far, I don't see them having too much difficulty in setting up the new roster or next gen of heroes to succeed them. Especially since some of them, like Spider Man in this instance, were intrinsically tied to the OG heroes as their effective successors.

Never underestimate the ability of people to squander what made them successful.

We've already seen it with Captain Marvel. Perfect example of what happens when you make a movie with an agenda rather than just trying to make a good movie, you end up with a lead that has the emotional range of a baked potato and a story with more plotholes than even comic books can contain. They're already setting up for "Female Thor". I do not have high hopes for that one.

I'm sure any future Black Panther, Dr Strange, Ant-man, and Guardians will be good, but anything with anybody else in it is most likely going to become quite cringy.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, while I don't want to discredit the impact that the OG actors and characters have done in establishing the MCU, they've more or less refined the formula at this point, and since the casting has still been pretty on point so far, I don't see them having too much difficulty in setting up the new roster or next gen of heroes to succeed them. Especially since some of them, like Spider Man in this instance, were intrinsically tied to the OG heroes as their effective successors.

Never underestimate the ability of people to squander what made them successful.

We've already seen it with Captain Marvel. Perfect example of what happens when you make a movie with an agenda rather than just trying to make a good movie, you end up with a lead that has the emotional range of a baked potato and a story with more plotholes than even comic books can contain. They're already setting up for "Female Thor". I do not have high hopes for that one.

I'm sure any future Black Panther, Dr Strange, Ant-man, and Guardians will be good, but anything with anybody else in it is most likely going to become quite cringy.

I disagree with your assessment of Capt. Marvel and I think Lady Thor being in a Thor movie is going to be fine. Probably even good. Portman is a good actress when given good stuff to work with.

The only MCU movie with major plot hole issues is Ironman 3.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, while I don't want to discredit the impact that the OG actors and characters have done in establishing the MCU, they've more or less refined the formula at this point, and since the casting has still been pretty on point so far, I don't see them having too much difficulty in setting up the new roster or next gen of heroes to succeed them. Especially since some of them, like Spider Man in this instance, were intrinsically tied to the OG heroes as their effective successors.

Never underestimate the ability of people to squander what made them successful.

We've already seen it with Captain Marvel. Perfect example of what happens when you make a movie with an agenda rather than just trying to make a good movie, you end up with a lead that has the emotional range of a baked potato and a story with more plotholes than even comic books can contain. They're already setting up for "Female Thor". I do not have high hopes for that one.

I'm sure any future Black Panther, Dr Strange, Ant-man, and Guardians will be good, but anything with anybody else in it is most likely going to become quite cringy.

I disagree with your assessment of Capt. Marvel and I think Lady Thor being in a Thor movie is going to be fine. Probably even good. Portman is a good actress when given good stuff to work with.

The only MCU movie with major plot hole issues is Ironman 3.

Marvel was a mess of bad acting/lack of acting and no thought being put into the story.

Brie Larson has NO emotional range, and that is the same throughout the whole movie. She is flat and boring. And yet, one of the major plot points her 'mentor' keeps harping on her is that she needs to "control her emotions". This could work, except for the aforementioned part where she isn't displaying any emotions. Like zero. She is quite literally the definition of someone who is mostly controlling her emotions. At worst, she gets slightly angry, but not enough to actually make the story make sense. Even when all is revealed and she rebels against those who brainwashed her, she just... punts them around with little more than normal aggression levels. There is no seething rage at being tricked/having her past erased. She has no character development at all. The parts that are supposed to be emotional and touching where she is reunited with her old friend are just stale and awkward, and not in a good way.

Also, every MCU origin movie has gone to great lengths to discuss the powers and abilities of the hero. Captain Marvel does not. We get no explanation of what her powers are or why exactly being exposed to magic reactor core fluid makes you the most powerful being in the universe.

The only thing that made the movie passable was Nick Fury's character arc. The movie was really his origin story, not Captain Marvels. Captain Marvel is boring and uninspiring. Xman levels of bad honestly.

Okay. So by plot holes you mean you dont like brie larsens acting and you choose to write a whole paragraph to state that one point.

The reactor runs on energies harvested from the space stone in the same way that quick silver and scarlet witch got their powers from the mind stone and the vision has powers that are some vague mix of the mind stone and tech developed by ultron. Which by the way is equally vague as "gamma radiation" "super soldier serum" "ark reactor" "magic hammer" "pym particals" "heart shaped herb soup" and "magic is programs of the universe". None of the powers sources are well explained.

So again, what plot holes?

 Lance845 wrote:
Okay. So by plot holes you mean you dont like brie larsens acting and you choose to write a whole paragraph to state that one point.

The reactor runs on energies harvested from the space stone in the same way that quick silver and scarlet witch got their powers from the mind stone and the vision has powers that are some vague mix of the mind stone and tech developed by ultron. Which by the way is equally vague as "gamma radiation" "super soldier serum" "ark reactor" "magic hammer" "pym particals" "heart shaped herb soup" and "magic is programs of the universe". None of the powers sources are well explained.

So again, what plot holes?

Quick Silver and Scarlet Witch and Vision are all minor characters. Captain Marvel is supposed to be the main character and she receives terrible exposition in this movie. Its one thing to be vague, but its another to not even really define what her powers are, just that they're the best out of every single one of the other marvel characters.

The "Control your emotions" thing is the plot hole. And its a big one.

They make a huge deal of calling on her to control her emotions, despite her not having any emotions of any kind. Both via lack of acting and just lack of anything from the writing. She has no emotions. They treat this as some sort of trial for her to overcome, but by the end of the movie they've totally forgotten this even existed.

Captain Marvel undergoes zero character development, and yet the movie acts as if she did. We get scenes that try and make you feel like she has grown from being an evil puppet to a defender of good. buuuuuuuut there is no growth at all. No emotional growth. Not even anger directed at her captors for tricking her. She's totally ambivalent towards them. She only destroys them because she's suddenly grown a desire to protect the good guys, but nothing actually convinces you that she actually cares. This isn't just her terrible acting either. The writing doesn't convey it either. Its especially bad they dropped the ball on this potential character development because it was the only chance they had to do any. Without it, they had nothing.

A better actress might have made it more convincing, but the terrible writing would still be there. Captain Marvel is a failure on both levels. Terrible casting and terrible writing.

The only thing that was actually interesting in this movie were the scenes with Nick Fury. He alone had character development.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Okay. So by plot holes you mean you dont like brie larsens acting and you choose to write a whole paragraph to state that one point.

The reactor runs on energies harvested from the space stone in the same way that quick silver and scarlet witch got their powers from the mind stone and the vision has powers that are some vague mix of the mind stone and tech developed by ultron. Which by the way is equally vague as "gamma radiation" "super soldier serum" "ark reactor" "magic hammer" "pym particals" "heart shaped herb soup" and "magic is programs of the universe". None of the powers sources are well explained.

So again, what plot holes?

Quick Silver and Scarlet Witch and Vision are all minor characters. Captain Marvel is supposed to be the main character and she receives terrible exposition in this movie. Its one thing to be vague, but its another to not even really define what her powers are, just that they're the best out of every single one of the other marvel characters.

Okay, explain what exactly gamma radiation does? Or the super soldier serum? Or the heart shaped herb? These are main characters.

The "Control your emotions" thing is the plot hole. And its a big one.

They make a huge deal of calling on her to control her emotions, despite her not having any emotions of any kind. Both via lack of acting and just lack of anything from the writing. She has no emotions. They treat this as some sort of trial for her to overcome, but by the end of the movie they've totally forgotten this even existed.

What they show when she is sparing at the beginning is that when she gets frustrated or angry she goes straight to her powers and lashes out. Yon'Rogg tells her to control her self then. And then she goes off all rash and gets captured by the skrulls because of it. Her trial is being talked down to by Yon'rogg when he and the supreme intelligence tells her who she is supposed to be and what she is supposed to be and then she decides who shes going to be for herself.

Captain Marvel undergoes zero character development, and yet the movie acts as if she did. We get scenes that try and make you feel like she has grown from being an evil puppet to a defender of good. buuuuuuuut there is no growth at all. No emotional growth. Not even anger directed at her captors for tricking her. She's totally ambivalent towards them. She only destroys them because she's suddenly grown a desire to protect the good guys, but nothing actually convinces you that she actually cares. This isn't just her terrible acting either. The writing doesn't convey it either. Its especially bad they dropped the ball on this potential character development because it was the only chance they had to do any. Without it, they had nothing.

Her growth is in no longer needing anyone elses direction or approval. Which is summed up at the end when Yon'rogg challenges her and she puts him down without needing to prove herself to him. Her growth isn't revenge or anger. It's confidence in herself and following her own path. It's rediscovering who she really is and breaking their brain washing.

A better actress might have made it more convincing, but the terrible writing would still be there. Captain Marvel is a failure on both levels. Terrible casting and terrible writing.

The only thing that was actually interesting in this movie were the scenes with Nick Fury. He alone had character development.

Thats a fine opinion for you to have. You are welcome to it. But the rest of what you are saying is complete crap.

 Lance845 wrote:


What they show when she is sparing at the beginning is that when she gets frustrated or angry she goes straight to her powers and lashes out. Yon'Rogg tells her to control her self then. And then she goes off all rash and gets captured by the skrulls because of it. Her trial is being talked down to by Yon'rogg when he and the supreme intelligence tells her who she is supposed to be and what she is supposed to be and then she decides who shes going to be for herself.

Except she is patently NOT getting frustrated or angry. Not to any level where a teacher would be justified in calling her out and telling her to control her emotions. This is where the plot falls apart. They're acting as if something is there when there isn't. She is through the whole movie a completely stoic character. It would have been better if there had been emotions of frustration or anger, but there simply wasn't. It was all flat, which completely jarred with the dialogue that was pretending that there was a raging emotional character.

Furthermore, the fact that she can access her powers is a problem as well. Why did they not use her as a tool with her powers? Why brainwash someone with super abilities if you aren't going to use those abilities? It makes no sense and is a plot hole too.

Marvel movies may not have the best depth of plot, but they were till this point way better than this.

Her growth is in no longer needing anyone elses direction or approval. Which is summed up at the end when Yon'rogg challenges her and she puts him down without needing to prove herself to him. Her growth isn't revenge or anger. It's confidence in herself and following her own path. It's rediscovering who she really is and breaking their brain washing.

That would work, if the character wasn't a flat emotionless potato. Her 'triumph' does not feel like a real moment of personal growth where she overcame a major life obstacle. It feels on par with someone who learned how to operate a toaster, and wasn't even actually all that excited about it.

She wasn't even really being brainwashed. She was just lied to about the thing on her neck and what it actually did. No emotional turmoil, just pop it off and you can kick butt. Boring.

Yon'Rogg isn't justified. He's a monster cog in a monster system that is turning a person they kidnapped into a weapon for their own use. He doesn't need to be justified when trying to beat any rebellion out of her. The slightest provocation comes with a lesson about control because control is what HE wants.

Again, your whole argument is you don't like Brie Larsen. Thats fine. You can not like whatever you don't like. Thats not a failing of the plot.

 Lance845 wrote:


Now toss in the eventual Fantastic 4 (hopefully as teenagers),.

making the fantastic four teenagers would be.... in a word dumb. they didn't start out as teenagers, so it'd be pointless to do it that way in the movies. Reed Richards should be in his 30s, with sue being early to mid 20s, johnny storm should be a teenager (and should immediatly be placed oppisite of spiderman something the comics have done well) ben griumm likewise, 30 something

 Lance845 wrote:
Yon'Rogg isn't justified. He's a monster cog in a monster system that is turning a person they kidnapped into a weapon for their own use. He doesn't need to be justified when trying to beat any rebellion out of her. The slightest provocation comes with a lesson about control because control is what HE wants.

Again, your whole argument is you don't like Brie Larsen. Thats fine. You can not like whatever you don't like. Thats not a failing of the plot.

Agree with all your points - Cap Marvel I thought was one of the best Marvel films to date - really looking forward to the sequal. I think it would have been fun to have a girls night out short with Pepper, Jane, etc

Strange has good possibilities and has the snarkiness of Tony but not sure abot the others - Scarlet Witch can be good. I assume Cap M will only be on planet now and then -"Other planets have problems too"

Yup.

Yon-Rogg sought to use Vers as a weapon. He and the Supreme Intelligence are in on it.

The whole 'don't use your powers' thing was to stop her discovering her potential, and becoming a threat, dressed up as 'fight honourably'.