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For a rules subscription service with GW that offers access to digital copies of all released content that is updated regularly (CA, Codexes, Campaigns, etc).

I feel like the only way out of the mess of buyer's remorse is for GW to create a subscription service. Something that allows them to produce fluffy content without needing to couple it to rules hooks to get more buyers.

If you cancel you lose access to all documents.

Errata and FAQs remain free.

what "buyer's remorse"? the outrage that you have to download a few bits and blobs of FAQs in addition to your codices? the end result would be you'd pay more and get, possiably less.

no what GW needs to do if provide each hard cover book with a code for a free download of an electronic copy of the codex that is updated periodicly with FAQ and errata stuff, no idiot subscription, a one time purchase. many RPG companies do exactly this and it works quite nicely. It rewards people who purchase the physical book, by giving them a free copy of the digital as well.
as opposed to this scheme which would punish anyone who prefers the physical copy by locking them out of Errata, by forcing them to buy yet another product.

no more subscription services, I'm tired of the steady nickle and dime. How about they put out free updated rules, optional rules books to buy, and we just pay the model costs which grow ever larger by each release.

edit : I Also agree with the buy physical also get digital updated codex.

I'd pay for their rules if they demonstrated a minimal degree of competence in writing them. (Funny how the people who write functional rules (FFG, WotC, PP, CB...) don't charge me for them and the people who write the worst rules (GW) do...)

BrianDavion wrote:
what "buyer's remorse"? the outrage that you have to download a few bits and blobs of FAQs in addition to your codices? the end result would be you'd pay more and get, possiably less.

no what GW needs to do if provide each hard cover book with a code for a free download of an electronic copy of the codex that is updated periodicly with FAQ and errata stuff, no idiot subscription, a one time purchase. many RPG companies do exactly this and it works quite nicely. It rewards people who purchase the physical book, by giving them a free copy of the digital as well.
as opposed to this scheme which would punish anyone who prefers the physical copy by locking them out of Errata, by forcing them to buy yet another product.

Well, I'm exploring that the break point for people would be.

The buyer's remorse is buying a book for your army, not being interested in the fluff much, and then discovering the rules are of no use to you. There exists a dynamic where GW is a slave to itself -- forced to write books with rules hooks to increases purchases. Giving them a steady stream of income could free them up a little, perhaps?

I added an option to reflect a digital code with the purchase of a book.

Errata and FAQs would continue to be free.

Nope, zero interest in a monthly fee for rules. Frequent changes in rules/balance? Pass.

I like physical rulebooks, for one, but more importantly, I expect a company to get it "right" to begin with, by play testing rigorously and releasing rules for all armies at once, then making balance changes as needed. New units should have their rules included in the box!

1-2€ / month would make me consider it, anything more- no thanks. 60€/year for making me print the books on my own? Absolutely not.
Give me the Code when buying the book, I'd take that.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
1-2€ / month would make me consider it, anything more- no thanks. 60€/year for making me print the books on my own? Absolutely not.
Give me the Code when buying the book, I'd take that.

No printing - just digital. Well...I guess you could print them.

I put down 60, but I would still require them to write something worth a sub for. Even at 60 a year I think they would be as much as I spend on other rule sets over there time of use.

Probably the best value would be regular updates to factions that do not get them often as part of the service. But GW I think is still in the stage of trying to ignore the internet.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For a rules subscription service with GW that offers access to digital copies of all released content that is updated regularly (CA, Codexes, Campaigns, etc).

I feel like the only way out of the mess of buyer's remorse is for GW to create a subscription service. Something that allows them to produce fluffy content without needing to couple it to rules hooks to get more buyers.

If you cancel you lose access to all documents.

Errata and FAQs remain free.

Nope.

I've paid gw enough for books. Never again.

I want my books in hand and not digital. That being said, it can't be the way for GW.
They have proven again and again that they are incapable of writing cohesive rules or even refused to update their existing books in future print runs, see the "new" The Rules for 40k. And even new publications no longer give you all the rules you want or need, the SM codex is a disaster with the full rules for codex-compliant chapters scattered through various supplements or campaign books.
I regret every 40k book I bought from GW since 6th edition.

(As a sidenote, I thoroughly enjoy the AoS books. The team is much better at writing rules and the supplements feel optional instead of a forced buy.)

As much as I'd like to see a 40k app with regular updated rules with the basics being free (and buy the army supplements you need, which are updated with the "optional" rules from campaign books on release), I can't see it happening. They make good money with books and people will buy it anyway, because the need or want to stay up to date with the rules.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Giving them a steady stream of income could free them up a little, perhaps?

I added an option to reflect a digital code with the purchase of a book.

Errata and FAQs would continue to be free.

We have a saying in Poland that goes like this. give a man a hand, and he will take the whole arm. I don't think that giving extra money to GW would somehow stop them from doing stuff the way they did in the past. A code with a book would be a great. And a digital book, should never cost as much as a paper back one. Thought I strongly doubt GW would do any of those two.

I would never buy into a game system where I would lose access when I stop paying.

Also, considering I already have access to Battlescribe, what could GW offer that would entice me to buy in?

I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

GW sells outdated rules, and refuses to update them in reprints (40k: The Rules from last month has the unchanged, horribly outdated Core Rules).
GW sells yearly rules updates/patches in Chapter Approved.
GW sells little rules snippet in campaign books (Vigilus and now again with Psychic Awakening - granted, some armies suffer more than others).

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

GW sells outdated rules, and refuses to update them in reprints (40k: The Rules from last month has the unchanged, horribly outdated Core Rules).
GW sells yearly rules updates/patches in Chapter Approved.
GW sells little rules snippet in campaign books (Vigilus and now again with Psychic Awakening - granted, some armies suffer more than others).

This is truth, GW does all of those things in different ways. The only thing I disliked, a lot , with how FFG runs things is when they switched from 1st to 2nd edition of X wing and expected me to rebuy tons of new cards for my old ships, or just rebuy all my old things. Though GW do plenty of nickle and dime tactics to cost you plenty, FFG seems to be charting their own annoying course.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

But you do have to buy 3 Predators. You still need the models to play 40k, the difference is that a system like X-Wing also gives you the rules when you buy the model and doesn't charge you extra for the rules on the side. It's not a perfect system by any means, but given the cost difference between 40k and X-Wing, focussing on how FFG rip you off while GW don't is an interesting take on things. Sure, you can use old models in new editions but FFG provided pretty good value with the conversion kits for 2nd edition X-Wing - each one cheaper than getting the new 40k rulebook and a Codex.

As far as the OP goes, I'd be unwilling to pay for a subscription for rules at all, at least from GW. I think charging for rules in general is quite an outdated concept now and GW seem to have some of the worst rules in terms of quality and balance. Other companies provide rules for free and update them as required, all while maintaining better balance than GW can manage. There's also the problem that there are so many factions in 40k now I might not see any return on my subscription money in a given year. It's quite possible 12 months could pass without a single model or rules update for any of my factions.

Shame there isn't a "nothing so long the rules updates are not up to par" .

I mean if GW would atleast deliver a service worthy of such a thing, (fast updates, tighter rulewriting, etc. Maybee some extra goodies) then i'd be okay with it.


Further i am a book guy.

Returning to 40k after sooooo long away is bemusing for me.

As im going to be playing friendly at home games ive decided to just play the rules as in the books/codex's (codex's arrive today in the post).

Its already confusing enough with army lists...Battalions and what not for somebody coming back to it after 25 or so years away without trying to hunt down all the latest updated rules etc.

Slipspace wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

But you do have to buy 3 Predators. You still need the models to play 40k, the difference is that a system like X-Wing also gives you the rules when you buy the model and doesn't charge you extra for the rules on the side. It's not a perfect system by any means, but given the cost difference between 40k and X-Wing, focussing on how FFG rip you off while GW don't is an interesting take on things. Sure, you can use old models in new editions but FFG provided pretty good value with the conversion kits for 2nd edition X-Wing - each one cheaper than getting the new 40k rulebook and a Codex.

As far as the OP goes, I'd be unwilling to pay for a subscription for rules at all, at least from GW. I think charging for rules in general is quite an outdated concept now and GW seem to have some of the worst rules in terms of quality and balance. Other companies provide rules for free and update them as required, all while maintaining better balance than GW can manage. There's also the problem that there are so many factions in 40k now I might not see any return on my subscription money in a given year. It's quite possible 12 months could pass without a single model or rules update for any of my factions.

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

I'll take a code with my book like what happens with most records people buy.

Code with the book for me. I prefer the physical book overall and I think that as a product to present to new gamers and people who aren't even gamers its a far more engaging item than a digital product. Consider how many in the hobby love their old battletomes and codex and big rule books for the artwork, lore and background to their factions - stuff that if it were digital they'd likely pass it right by.

So on that score I'd never want to see the physical books go away.

Giving gamers a code for an online version when you buy the physical would make a good amount of sense; they get the same content just in digital form and if you've bought one version you're unlikely to want the other. It would likely encourage digital use and if GW were smart they could pair that policy with a subscribption based army builder system (or a free one)

BrianDavion 782348 10626265 wrote:

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

unless you want lucky dice for tournaments, then you have to spend a lot of money to get same looking moded dice, that you can only tell the difference by touch. They cost a lot too. almost 2,50$ per dice.

GW would almost certainly overcharge for that service. Like more that that $360/a year.

The single biggest problem with a subscription is that GW would be incentivised to not work on rules. You currently buy rules because they’re changing. If GW doesn’t change them, they STILL get your subscription money. So they’re not motivated to change the rules.

A properly implemented system would allow you to get all rules the release as long as you have the subscription, and you stop receiving updates once you cancel it.

$60 or 55€ would be pushing it, but getting an updated Codex+CA+some campaign book to just read the fluff or get something like the character rules each year is probably OK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sorcererbob wrote:
The single biggest problem with a subscription is that GW would be incentivised to not work on rules. You currently buy rules because they’re changing. If GW doesn’t change them, they STILL get your subscription money. So they’re not motivated to change the rules.

The dumb thing about GW is that they actually think this way. Despite their huge successes with 8th, they still don't get that great rules sell more models than bad rules or rules trying to manipulate us into buying certain things.

Sorcererbob wrote:
The single biggest problem with a subscription is that GW would be incentivised to not work on rules. You currently buy rules because they’re changing. If GW doesn’t change them, they STILL get your subscription money. So they’re not motivated to change the rules.

But they would need to come up with something to keep players, and new models would be coming to necessitate rules changes. We may see factions getting lots of little changes and add ons rather than having to wait for a big release or a book.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 782348 10626265 wrote:

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

unless you want lucky dice for tournaments, then you have to spend a lot of money to get same looking moded dice, that you can only tell the difference by touch. They cost a lot too. almost 2,50$ per dice.

Karol, idiots being willing to buy special dice (if those dice really do give you an advantage they're weighted dice and are CHEATING) is entire;y differant from proparitory dice. I'm talking dice that replace the numbers with sopecial symbols in odd patterns to force you to buy a dice pack from the company for your game. something FFG LOVES to do with their RPGs.

I thought that the wierd stuff on GW dice was put there so you can more easily weight them to specific sides, or file them off to get same effect.