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Various things, honestly. I would like either a code with each book to download a digital copy, or something like War Room was for Warmahordes (IMHO one of the best army building apps ever) where you either unlocked a faction, or paid a flat fee (It was like $60 and then went to $99 I believe) to get everything, along with any updates and new books for the lifetime of the edition. So for example when I bought that and a new book came out, I got the updated units (but not the book, that was extra). When they added a new faction, I got all of the information on the faction.

Basically I want Azyr without having to buy all of the extra separately. Pay a flat fee or a larger monthly sub, and you get access to all of the units (already get this), the army builder, battleplans, battalions, etc. for as long as you subscribe, with the option to buy the battletome in-app to unlock it forever.

However knowing GW they would change the edition yearly or something and make you buy it again.

Karol wrote:
I thought that the wierd stuff on GW dice was put there so you can more easily weight them to specific sides, or file them off to get same effect.

You and your community never cease to amaze me. That's not, and never has been, the reason for having symbols on dice. It's also worth noting that GW dice and most other dice made by large manufacturers aren't made with anywhere near enough precision to allow you to weight them effectively without it being really obvious.

As for FFG's propensity for special dice, it's matched only by their love of cardboard tokens. Tokens everywhere! It's one of the more annoying things about their games, for sure.

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 782348 10626265 wrote:

40K at least doesn't require properatory dice unlike so many FFG RPGs. *glares at FFG*

unless you want lucky dice for tournaments, then you have to spend a lot of money to get same looking moded dice, that you can only tell the difference by touch. They cost a lot too. almost 2,50$ per dice.

Karol, idiots being willing to buy special dice (if those dice really do give you an advantage they're weighted dice and are CHEATING) is entire;y differant from proparitory dice. I'm talking dice that replace the numbers with sopecial symbols in odd patterns to force you to buy a dice pack from the company for your game. something FFG LOVES to do with their RPGs.

Dice are not really that big a deal, considering they give both a free app and the book has full conversion rules for any dice for at least one of those games. And offers a very fun and interesting mechanic, that without those dice would still need a conversion table anyway to pull off.
Considering how many dice GW games can use I still think my Star Wars ones where cheaper.

Rules subscription is a horrid idea.

A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

 Galef wrote:
A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

Basically, my suggestion is that the digital copy would update FOR FREE, like a subscription, but not require actually subscription. So you pay for either the physical book (which comes with a digital copy, just like a BluRay or DVD) or just buy the digital copy by itself (presumably for around half the cost of the physical book). Either way you get the digital copy and that copy can be updated for FREE everytime there is an FAQ, Errata or CA points change

No need for a subscription because buying the digital copy is basically a "lifetime" subscription.

-

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They can look into an army before buying into it. That’s how you get around buyer’s remorse. You take the time to make an informed decision, checking forums like this, Wahapedia, 4chan for pirated stuff is even possible. There is no excuse to not be informed about 40K books.

What if subscription let your see all the rules, for a 1/6/12 months, but to see the points costs you would have to buy them separatly for each unit?

the way you buy supplements for sportsmen.

 Apple Peel wrote:

They can look into an army before buying into it. That’s how you get around buyer’s remorse. You take the time to make an informed decision, checking forums like this, Wahapedia, 4chan for pirated stuff is even possible. There is no excuse to not be informed about 40K books.

There's a whole lot of people out there naive to those websites. Pirating will certainly increase as displeasure grows. Oddly, it's never been easier to get a digital copy of a codex - I wonder how many lamenting PA1 bought it...

I suppose research and avoiding snap purchases is the only true remedy, but it still seems like people technically forced (not truly forced) to buy a book where they don't use 90% of the content could cause feelings of ill will.

This would be a much more interesting idea if GW didn't release rules every couple of months that leave me in a state of 'why the feth do I play this game?'

I'd end up cancelling my sub once or twice a year at least.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
This would be a much more interesting idea if GW didn't release rules every couple of months that leave me in a state of 'why the feth do I play this game?'

I'd end up cancelling my sub once or twice a year at least.

But then you'd have a more measurable impact on the bottom line.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They are obviously making a killing out of their black library books and short stories, do we really need second-rate fluff out of campaign books?

A campaign books should enable you to play fun campaigns, but GW has never actually done that.
Their scenarios are always so narrow that half the time you can't play it with your collection, or you need terrain that costs as much as the GDP of a small country. On top of that, most scenarios are just standard game + gimmik that might or might not work or the scenario is so one-sided that someone just gets trashed. Try playing the Sabotage narrative mission against harlequins - and make sure you have something planned for the rest of the hour.

Something me and multiple people I've talked to are longing for is a campaign that works like those campaigns in the first DoW game - any army can participate, you have a map you can conquer with fun scenarios and some basic missions, with a last stand mission and some victory fluff to read for every faction. Bonus points for unique faction leaders that you can convert but are not available for matched play. Optionally, release miniatures for them and add them to their codices.

New rules should just be updated to the e-codices. There is zero reason to not just add them to corresponding sections of the codex.

Release a novel or ebook telling you how marines won anyways along with it, so people wo want the fluff of that conflict can get it.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They are obviously making a killing out of their black library books and short stories, do we really need second-rate fluff out of campaign books?

A campaign books should enable you to play fun campaigns, but GW has never actually done that.
Their scenarios are always so narrow that half the time you can't play it with your collection, or you need terrain that costs as much as the GDP of a small country. On top of that, most scenarios are just standard game + gimmik that might or might not work or the scenario is so one-sided that someone just gets trashed. Try playing the Sabotage narrative mission against harlequins - and make sure you have something planned for the rest of the hour.

Something me and multiple people I've talked to are longing for is a campaign that works like those campaigns in the first DoW game - any army can participate, you have a map you can conquer with fun scenarios and some basic missions, with a last stand mission and some victory fluff to read for every faction. Bonus points for unique faction leaders that you can convert but are not available for matched play. Optionally, release miniatures for them and add them to their codices.

New rules should just be updated to the e-codices. There is zero reason to not just add them to corresponding sections of the codex.

Release a novel or ebook telling you how marines won anyways along with it, so people wo want the fluff of that conflict can get it.

You make some good points though I feel like your perspective on the fluff stuff leans into the competitive edge too much? I haven't played those mission types for a decade so I can't say otherwise.

You're onto something though. I do recall the campaign they hosted on their website a few years ago. That was quite cool. So, if I read it right - just kill these psuedo-campaign books, release PDFs for rules, and models where applicable?

Warmahordes’ War Room App costs $12 CAD per faction, providing updated rules for the life of the Edition. With an army builder app built in.

This includes access to an in-app PDF version of the main rules. In terms of value, I have never had better.

I would consider a *maximum* of $5 CAD per month, as a subscription.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For a rules subscription service with GW that offers access to digital copies of all released content that is updated regularly (CA, Codexes, Campaigns, etc).

I feel like the only way out of the mess of buyer's remorse is for GW to create a subscription service. Something that allows them to produce fluffy content without needing to couple it to rules hooks to get more buyers.

If you cancel you lose access to all documents.

Errata and FAQs remain free.

The only way out of buyer's remorse is to give GW - who we know produce terrible rules - money IN ADVANCE for unspecified content?!

Yeah, that's going to be a hard no from me.

I'd pay probably $10-15 over the price of the codex if it gave access to digital rules solution (army builder I can play out of) that was updated with changes in FAQs and the like. This includes things like the Vigilus formations and such. That's already dramatically more than I pay for other games, but if that's what it takes for GW to do the job right... sure.

I pay 100 bucks a year for a PS4 network subscription. I'd pay that or maybe even a little more for updated 40k rules every year.

OFC the issue here is it would actually cost GW money. It's the reason we will never have it. GW makes most it's money selling rules and mini games.

Codex/Novels/Box games like silver tower.

If you buy 3 codex a year you are already over that 100 dollar mark...Most players buy 3 codex easily. This also includes things like campaign supplements.

 Galef wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

 Galef wrote:
A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

Basically, my suggestion is that the digital copy would update FOR FREE, like a subscription, but not require actually subscription. So you pay for either the physical book (which comes with a digital copy, just like a BluRay or DVD) or just buy the digital copy by itself (presumably for around half the cost of the physical book). Either way you get the digital copy and that copy can be updated for FREE everytime there is an FAQ, Errata or CA points change

No need for a subscription because buying the digital copy is basically a "lifetime" subscription.

-

yeah, as I said a LOT of gaming companies already do this, a lot of the time you only get it if you order direct from them however. but you get the PDF the MINUTE you order the book. if GW offered an option to allow us to pre-order a codex direct from them and get a free set of digital rules when you complete the purchase I suspect you'd see most people happily ordering their books direct from GW, even if it meant yes, sacrificing the 20% discount

No subcription. I want to own the rules and not be limited by gw telling me what to play. Now good ebook i could buy and buy occasionally but android ones suck in finding stuff quickly and not paying apple tax for hardware.

tneva82 wrote:
No subcription. I want to own the rules and not be limited by gw telling me what to play. Now good ebook i could buy and buy occasionally but android ones suck in finding stuff quickly and not paying apple tax for hardware.

thats another reason why I'd be skeptical about any push to completely go digital. GW's got a hard core apple fetish that I do NOT share.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

Simple. Playtest and proofread. There’d be a lot less buyer’s remorse if the books aren’t being invalidated every few months.

Slipspace wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I don't mind the books. At least GW produce high-quality games (unlike, say, FFG, CB, etc..), don't bundle them in little snippets with the miniatures (again, FFG rip-off) or charge for the FAQs/patched (hello FFG again).

Unlike some rip-offs like X-Wing, I also only need to have bring rules for a Predator once, even if I run 3 in my army, not 3 identical cards, which might not be the fashionable customer-draining the cool companies do, but I like it.

But you do have to buy 3 Predators. You still need the models to play 40k, the difference is that a system like X-Wing also gives you the rules when you buy the model and doesn't charge you extra for the rules on the side. It's not a perfect system by any means, but given the cost difference between 40k and X-Wing, focussing on how FFG rip you off while GW don't is an interesting take on things. Sure, you can use old models in new editions but FFG provided pretty good value with the conversion kits for 2nd edition X-Wing - each one cheaper than getting the new 40k rulebook and a Codex.

As far as the OP goes, I'd be unwilling to pay for a subscription for rules at all, at least from GW. I think charging for rules in general is quite an outdated concept now and GW seem to have some of the worst rules in terms of quality and balance. Other companies provide rules for free and update them as required, all while maintaining better balance than GW can manage. There's also the problem that there are so many factions in 40k now I might not see any return on my subscription money in a given year. It's quite possible 12 months could pass without a single model or rules update for any of my factions.

I'm sorry I gotta call this out, the conversion kits were not " Good Value " for X wing. If you only bought one small force, maybe they were an ok value. I loved x wing 1st edition. I had a very large collection. I would have needed like 2 empire conversion kits, at least. 1 or 2 for Scum and about the same for Rebels because my collection was so full. As well now I'd need a new conversion kit for the huge ships that are coming out. Thats over 200$ USD, depending on if I could find it cheaper, all to keep using models I'd already picked up that cost a pretty penny, and the new stuff would still come with further upgrades for the same models that you'd want to have to keep up so re buying some parts of the whole force, again. That isn't at all reasonable or good value in my opinion.

When GW re tooled the game, I needed like 60$ for the soft cover indexes and didn't miss a beat in playing with all of my models. So yeah, GW is awful, but FFG did you no favors with their reasonable upgrade kits and it's why I dropped that game, because i once supported FFG, but not now, the burn was way too real. GW actually handled the game system reset worlds better than FFG did, imo.

Galef wrote:Rules subscription is a horrid idea.

A far BETTER idea would be to give a code for the download with the purchase of the PHYSICAL book, that way you buy them as a package deal. And the downloaded copy includes erratas and FAQ's that will update for free. You wouldn't even need the Fluff and pretty pictures in the digital copy in this model as that is what the physical book would be for

That, IMO, is the consumer's cake that we can eat too. Everyone should be happy with that. Heck, you could even sell JUST the digital copy for half price if you really just do not want the physical book.
But either way, that digital copy should update for free with each errata and CA points change

-

I am in full agreement here. Codex comes with digital code, you get both a hard copy and a digital that will update with errata, points cost changes, etc. It is the best of both worlds. I'd even consider paying an extra couple dollars for the book if they do that.

Daedalus81 wrote:For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

The thing with a subscription service is they have to actually give you content to make it worthwhile. Just having it be for faqs and rules stuff would be a complete waste of money - they would NEED to offer more. Things like monthly mission packs, downloads for "fun things" like printable terrain and posters (you know, print it out, cut along the lines and tape it type stuff), and Black Library books. If you come with a monthly/yearly fee, you have to make it worth it to the consumer.

For example, I subscribe to the Humble Monthly Bundle, because for 120/130 dollars a year, I get close to 100 games, many of which are high quality things that I am interested in and also own (I guess technically license) forever (or until steam dies and I frantically try to download everything I have there onto a spare drive).

Even at 5 dollars a month, GW would NEED to add more to the pot than regular rules updates, and at the very least keep past edition books up on a legacy listing. After all, someone paying up now, once 9th hits - if it slots into a blank slate that would be trash. Plus, keeping the legacy rules up would attract people who still play older editions, especially if they dug up the faqs and such from way back in the day.

Long story short, in order to make a digital subscription worthwhile to the customer (and avoid the buyers remorse of "why did I pay for this?"), GW would have to keep things interesting for the people using it to make it worth its money.

So, like, pay 10 bucks and I get EVERYTHING (All Codexes, Chapter Approved, PA, etc)? It's honestly not a bad deal (it's basically what a Imperial Soup player would pay, or less), but I agree they'd need to add something on a monthly basis to keep people. Maybe access to Black Library novels? Bump it up to 20 bucks and send subscribers a monthly sprue for the "model of the month"? It'd definitely need to be more than just the rules and such.

Of course, my mindset is that the rules should be free anyway, as a way to increase model sales. But that's just me.

Karol wrote:
What if subscription let your see all the rules, for a 1/6/12 months, but to see the points costs you would have to buy them separatly for each unit?

the way you buy supplements for sportsmen.

How about NO.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You make some good points though I feel like your perspective on the fluff stuff leans into the competitive edge too much? I haven't played those mission types for a decade so I can't say otherwise.

The mission is actually quite fun usually, in the first part of the mission you can silently assassinate some dedicated guards (additional troops models from the defending army) to get into position. Once a guard ends his turn within "view" of an infiltrator or a gunshot is fired, the entire defending army comes on and the real game starts. However, Harlequins are extremely fast and have a low chance of not killing guards in combat, so they can just shred all the guards with no trouble, get their target and then be out of there before anyone notices. Very fluffy, but zero fun.

You're onto something though. I do recall the campaign they hosted on their website a few years ago. That was quite cool. So, if I read it right - just kill these psuedo-campaign books, release PDFs for rules, and models where applicable?

Pretty much yes, preferably just add them to a living codex, like someone above suggested.
For example, the whole eldar thing should just be new versions of their respective codices available for download from BL for everyone who has any version of the codex, with the pages added in.
They did that for some books in 7th, I see no reason not to continue doing that.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
For those advocating strongly for a digital code over a subscription --

How does this alleviate buyer's remorse? I think if those upset with PA1 would still be upset even if they had a code. For a group of people that are into the fluff and other pieces of the book it isn't a problem, but for others it could be quite aggravating.

It seems like there is too severe of a split for GW to entertain such a service -- assuming Dakka is at least somewhat representative of the broader desires in the community (I would expect the casual and less vocal players to lean to books more).

Given that - what is it that GW can do that still allows them to produce content, but also make books financially viable without making players feel forced into purchases?

They are obviously making a killing out of their black library books and short stories, do we really need second-rate fluff out of campaign books?

A campaign books should enable you to play fun campaigns, but GW has never actually done that.
Their scenarios are always so narrow that half the time you can't play it with your collection, or you need terrain that costs as much as the GDP of a small country. On top of that, most scenarios are just standard game + gimmik that might or might not work or the scenario is so one-sided that someone just gets trashed. Try playing the Sabotage narrative mission against harlequins - and make sure you have something planned for the rest of the hour.

Something me and multiple people I've talked to are longing for is a campaign that works like those campaigns in the first DoW game - any army can participate, you have a map you can conquer with fun scenarios and some basic missions, with a last stand mission and some victory fluff to read for every faction. Bonus points for unique faction leaders that you can convert but are not available for matched play. Optionally, release miniatures for them and add them to their codices.

New rules should just be updated to the e-codices. There is zero reason to not just add them to corresponding sections of the codex.

Release a novel or ebook telling you how marines won anyways along with it, so people wo want the fluff of that conflict can get it.

Exactly this. The only reason people call the Vigilus stuff "campaign" books is because that's how GW refers to them. There's not actually much in there to enable you to run a proper campaign. Instead of doing these books based around a specific conflict I'd prefer GW to release a book about campaigns in general with rules for running various different types of campaign. And I do mean rules, not "suggestions". The problem with GW's recent campaign offerings is they tend to tell you about types of campaign - ladder, narrative, map-based, etc - but don't really provide any rules for running them. They don't even give you advice on how to deal with things like runaway leaders, or players who don't participate as much as others.

6th Edition WH had a pretty damn good campaign system in an appendix - it worked pretty well, was fairly balanced for all participants and didn't have the problem of runaway leaders or people falling hopelessly behind. It wasn't perfect by any means but it's notable that a set of tacked-on rules for a game 15 years ago were actually better than anything GW has produced for 40k campaigns since then.

Poll needs a $0 option.

Subscription models only work in environments where the service itself is the product - like Netflix (no subscription, no service). GW products do not meet this criteria as they do not provide a service, rather a physical product that the user does whatever they like with. With no physical book option there will only be one outcome - more piracy from there being no physical product available to buy and nothing at all stopping anyone from screen shotting every page of a rules source and distributing at will.

It wouldn't be that hard to build a better case for free rules via digital download rather than a subscription model.

There are too many "subscription" services already and now it's seeping into computer programs/sites. How long before you'll need a subscription to post on Dakka Dakka? (hopefully never lol)

I pay for Netflix and now Disney+ (The Mandalorian blows my mind so far), I patently refuse to "subscribe" to rules for a hobby. That would be a deal breaker for me and I'd drop 40K/GW cold turkey..

I know it would never happen (they'd lose too much revenue) but I would wholeheartedly go for GW providing digital codes with the purchase of a book.

Continuous development generates continuous cost.
Right now they are charging you once per book they sell you, which means they have zero incentive to continue development afterwards.
You pay up front in hopes of them not ruining the game with some codex half a year later.
If you spread the money you pay for codex+ca across one year, you end up with roughly $5 per month. When they feth up like they did with their original IH implementation, they immediately feel the pain and have an incentive to fix the problem.