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AFAIK there is no canonical GW source attesting to any food shortages within Tau society. Without positive evidence we cannot conclude there are such problems.

However there is suggestion that the Tau control reproduction at least to some degree between Tau as castes are forbidden from having offspring with others outside their caste. So one possible speculative conclusion could be that the Tau genuinely do not have food shortages because they regulate reproduction to avoid outstripping the food or other resource supply. Of course that might seem a dystopian solution for readers that have been brought up to view reproduction as an individual right.

If the Imperium is 1984, the Tau can be a Brave New World. The promises of the Greater Good do not have to be outright lies. They may be truthful about there being material abundance and higher quality of life. It's just at the trade off of other things as compared to the Imperium's deal.

To be fair, you don't hear about the Iron Warriors slave-serfs running short on food, but that doesn't mean their life is grand.

The thing is, the Tau are just as grim and dark as the Imperium. And part of what makes them grim and dark is that nice appeal they have with that darker secret...

There's enough food for everyone, and places to rest....

...but you and your spouse have been sterilized.

There's no Oppressive Authority...

...but there's chemicals in our food that are making us docile.

Everyone is working together for the Greater Good...

...and you have no idea what that is or whether or not it requires/involves your survival, and the Kroot may need to be fed more than you need to be alive.

They have cool mech suits...

...you don't get one, here's a Kroot rifle.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

...but you and your spouse have been sterilized.

Mind you there is no canonical GW evidence for this specific nugget that keeps being raised. The only circumstantial source is the computer game Dawn of War Soulstorm for the hypothetical Tau victory in the Kaurava system. The canon of the computer games is always a bit suspect, and even more so when even within the Dawn of War series continuity, it never happened as it was not the canonical ending. Dawn of War III indicates that the Orks won the Kaurava system.

As for that hypothetical victory where the Tau secretly sterilizing the humans until they died out naturally, the existence of centuries old human populations within the Tau Empire argues against such a reservation until they go extinct policy, at least at a Tau Empire wide level.

I am not arguing for the Tau as being goody goody white hats, but some of the points raised against them have little or no grounding in the actual evidence from GW sources.

Iracundus wrote:
Mind you there is no canonical GW evidence for this specific nugget that keeps being raised. The only circumstantial source is the computer game Dawn of War Soulstorm for the hypothetical Tau victory in the Kaurava system. The canon of the computer games is always a bit suspect, and even more so when even within the Dawn of War series continuity, it never happened as it was not the canonical ending. Dawn of War III indicates that the Orks won the Kaurava system.

As for that hypothetical victory where the Tau secretly sterilizing the humans until they died out naturally, the existence of centuries old human populations within the Tau Empire argues against such a reservation until they go extinct policy, at least at a Tau Empire wide level.

You disgust me. You're less concerned about breeding, but what about not getting a cool mech and getting stuck with a break-action Kroot gun made from a corroded metal pipe and some gardening tools?

Mechs with big lasers > Babies

Until you show me a baby that can explode a tank, I'm standing by that.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
To be fair, you don't hear about the Iron Warriors slave-serfs running short on food, but that doesn't mean their life is grand.

The thing is, the Tau are just as grim and dark as the Imperium. And part of what makes them grim and dark is that nice appeal they have with that darker secret...

There's enough food for everyone, and places to rest....

...but you and your spouse have been sterilized.

There's no Oppressive Authority...

...but there's chemicals in our food that are making us docile.

Everyone is working together for the Greater Good...

...and you have no idea what that is or whether or not it requires/involves your survival, and the Kroot may need to be fed more than you need to be alive.

They have cool mech suits...

...you don't get one, here's a Kroot rifle.

But only one of those things actually ever happens. Sterilization is only ever mentioned in Dawn Of War witch is of.Questionable cannonity to say the least. And even then only on a Rebellious human pop. They don't sterilize loyal humans.

Theres no mention ANYWHERE of chemicals in the food that make you docile.

The Greater good is far more likely to require your survival then the Imperial Creed given that every single defensive battle weve ever seen the Tau engaged in theve made at least some effort to evac civilians and often make it a top priority. Regardless of said Civilians race. Meanwhile the most if the Imperiums commanders haven't even heard of the word Evacuation and most of the ones who have probably think its heretical.


And there certainly dont feed people to the Kroot.

Also they hand out Pulse rifles like fething candy to Guevesa. The only reason the Kroot dont also use Pulse Rifles us cause they specifically choose not to. At absolute worst a Guevesa might have to use a Lasgun.

chimera0205 wrote:
But only one of those things actually ever happens. ....

My dude, your rabid defense of the Tau has calmed down, so... those were just odd examples, "ifs". I don't know what they put in their food, it's probably poop.

...I think if you're looking at them as the optimistic "good guys", then that's equally part of the grim dark aspect.

Because if that's the case, the Tau are a toad frog sleeping on a highway.... and when their presence in the warp gets a bit bigger, and they start to realize what else is out there, how much is out there, and how small they are...

...they're going to be asking "How do you exterminatus the best" to the next Imperial official they encounter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
Meanwhile the most if the Imperiums commanders haven't even heard of the word Evacuation and most of the ones who have probably think its heretical.

Except they've done it before, my dude.

It's like you're basing your knowledge of the Imperium on bad memes.

Which is heresy.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
But only one of those things actually ever happens. ....

My dude, your rabid defense of the Tau has calmed down, so... those were just odd examples, "ifs". I don't know what they put in their food, it's probably poop.

...I think if you're looking at them as the optimistic "good guys", then that's equally part of the grim dark aspect.

Because if that's the case, the Tau are a toad frog sleeping on a highway.... and when their presence in the warp gets a bit bigger, and they start to realize what else is out there, how much is out there, and how small they are...

...they're going to be asking "How do you exterminatus the best" to the next Imperial official they encounter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:
Meanwhile the most if the Imperiums commanders haven't even heard of the word Evacuation and most of the ones who have probably think its heretical.

Except they've done it before, my dude.

It's like you're basing your knowledge of the Imperium on bad memes.

Which is heresy.

Says the one basing all there knowledge of the Tau on memes. Seems a bit hypocritical doesnt it?

chimera0205 wrote:
Says the one basing all there knowledge of the Tau on memes. Seems a bit hypocritical doesnt it?

I think I told you already where I drew my knowledge from, and honestly- you could argue the FFG RPG's are debatably canon. And the games? Well, I don't know how accurate their canon is or whatever, I played 2 of them and got bored.

I'm sorry I haven't pored into the Tau books as hard as you have, I've personally never found them interesting or worth investing money into. I dunno, I kinda think they look silly and most of their color schemes look like bad bathroom floor tiles to me.

And I can honestly say I've met very few fans of the faction that make me interested in them. Take that for what it's worth.

Believe as you like, think as you like. But yeah, I think we're done here, me and you. It's been... well, not fun. But it certainly happened.

I wish people were as passionate about parking correctly and picking up their own litter as you are about Tau, I can at least say that.

Honestly, are the Imperium and the T'au empire ideologies that different? I mean, the Imperium justifies anything it does with its own version of the "greater good". It's just that in their case, the greater good means "humanity runs the galaxy its own way" while the T'au are willing to invite other species to the party. But if at some point genocide was necessary for the greater good, the empire would do it, wouldn't it?

For a random citizen, in both cases you're part of an empire that doesn't care about what you want or think, only what is best for the empire.

If you're going to have a debate people, please quote and cite your sources specifically. In-character POVs are also suspect and fallible.

All too often the evidence based on "I seem to remember" or "I read somewhere" turns out to be totally false.

I admit I am probably not up to date on the Tau background, but do we actually get much portrayal of Tau everyday life from the perspective of the Tau themselves in say the Black Library sources? Much of the negatives raised against the Tau seem to either be from Imperial sources, or innuendo/speculation rather than direct confirmatory evidence.

 Tiennos wrote:
Honestly, are the Imperium and the T'au empire ideologies that different? I mean, the Imperium justifies anything it does with its own version of the "greater good". It's just that in their case, the greater good means "humanity runs the galaxy its own way" while the T'au are willing to invite other species to the party. But if at some point genocide was necessary for the greater good, the empire would do it, wouldn't it?

For a random citizen, in both cases you're part of an empire that doesn't care about what you want or think, only what is best for the empire.

The Tau Codices have alluded to basically gunboat diplomacy. Join peacefully, and maybe negotiate some sort of deal via the Water caste diplomats, or they attack and take by force. Maybe there is first an entangling of economic interests before they present their ultimatum, such as on Taros.

For the random human within the Tau Empire, their relative value is probably still higher than if they were in the Imperium simply due to the Tau Empire not having such near limitless manpower. The Tau would probably find some use for them whereas in a hive for example, there is urban anarchy below a certain level and the Imperium doesn't care as the population is so large that sections of it are beyond direct administrative control.

Iracundus wrote:
whereas in a hive for example, there is urban anarchy below a certain level and the Imperium doesn't care as the population is so large that sections of it are beyond direct administrative control.

The Necromundan word for "anarchy" also means "freedom".

It also means killing you in your sleep but you can't expect the dialect to be all positive.

TBH one of the prime reasons Tau society is much better for the common people is their general use of AI. You don't need to have hundreds of people living in subhuman conditions to produce weapons, food, etc... when you have drones doing it.

At the same time we know how AI ended up to the old humans. And theres hints in Tau lore about drones and other Tau AI starting to gain """"conscience"""", so is basically a disaster waiting to happen.

As the in-universe Eldar put it, Tau, Humans and Eldar represent three states of the galactic civilization cicle in 40k. Tau are "better" because they are still in the first pase of discovery, but they'll end up like the Imperium. Maybe not exactly as them, not doing the same horrible things in some aspect, but doing equally despicable things in other ways. At least, if they really want to expand and conquer most of the galaxy. If they are happy with their little corner, they can be much more "good" in a moral sense, like all those smaller human or xenos empires that have existed/exist.

But just like USA, you can't be the top dog being a chihuahua.

 flandarz wrote:
Didn't the Tau recently get "outfoxed" by a group of Orkz (basically, the green skins tricked them into walking into an ambush)? Dunno if that qualifies as "getting your gak kicked in", but it probably ain't a proud moment anyway.

Only other instance I can think of is when the Tau were having issues dealing with some Nidz, so the DE offered to help em out. Once again, that turned out pretty badly...

I dunno about getting out-foxed, but I do know the Tau got outgunned by Orks.
The War of Dakka is a hilarious bit of lore, and just shows that sometimes you don't need a better gun, sometimes you just need more gun.
Christopher Walken would have an excellent Big Mek. "I gotta feva, an' da painboy sed ta use moar dakka"

The interesting thing about that encounter with the Dark Eldar is the Dark Eldar actually upheld their end of the bargain, at least the letter of the bargain. Now the Tau were horrified because they were not aware of the true cost of what the Dark Eldar were really going to do to those "on cultural exchange", but it was the Tau then that technically broke the deal by not offering up additional Tau or an Ethereal in return for the Dark Eldar aid already received.

Iracundus wrote:
The interesting thing about that encounter with the Dark Eldar is the Dark Eldar actually upheld their end of the bargain, at least the letter of the bargain. Now the Tau were horrified because they were not aware of the true cost of what the Dark Eldar were really going to do to those "on cultural exchange", but it was the Tau then that technically broke the deal by not offering up additional Tau or an Ethereal in return for the Dark Eldar aid already received.

Lawful Evil in action.
The Dark Eldar respected the terms of the contract. Its not their fault if the Tau didn't read the small print or asked if they'd be getting their Ethereals back in one piece without having horrible things done to them.

 Manchu wrote:
This is not even a genuine moral issue. Rather, it is purely a matter of resource management. As other have pointed out, human life is a practically infinite resource for the Imperium. Billions of lost lives are of purely local consequence. For the puny, galactically insignificant Tau Empire, such losses would be a staggering setback.

As to the rest, here’s where you get to pick an interpretation.

On one hand, maybe the Tau are just narrative proxies for humanity and they are just another joke in the satire of 40k (“even the aliens are more “humane” than humans har har!). In that case, we can say, morality is universal and the Imperium and the Tau Empire can be judged by the same measuring stick. (Along with Necrons and Orks and even Chaos, I guess? Seems pretty dumb to me.)

On the other hand, maybe the Tau are actually aliens. In that case, there is no bridging the gap between the psychology of the two species and morality as such is a matter purely internal to each.

The implication of the latter is that co-existence would at minimum be severely stressful.

locarno24 wrote:
which resulted in a snuggle incursion

Throne preserve us.

That's autocorrect for 'nurgle' but now I'm picturing an invasion of fluffy daemonic duvets.....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The interesting thing about that encounter with the Dark Eldar is the Dark Eldar actually upheld their end of the bargain, at least the letter of the bargain. Now the Tau were horrified because they were not aware of the true cost of what the Dark Eldar were really going to do to those "on cultural exchange", but it was the Tau then that technically broke the deal by not offering up additional Tau or an Ethereal in return for the Dark Eldar aid already received.

Lawful Evil in action.
The Dark Eldar respected the terms of the contract. Its not their fault if the Tau didn't read the small print or asked if they'd be getting their Ethereals back in one piece without having horrible things done to them.

Actually from my understanding the dark eldar basically always adhere to at least the letter og any deals they make. Its basically the only good quality of the species. I mean thats probably one of the main reasons Cammeragh is such a massive hub for Mercenarys and Pirates. Your reputation is the only thing that means anything in the world of Pirates and Mercs.

locarno24 wrote:

That's autocorrect for 'nurgle' but now I'm picturing an invasion of fluffy daemonic duvets.....

Fluff Guard worship Grandpa Snuggle, and summon Plushwalkers.

chimera0205 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The interesting thing about that encounter with the Dark Eldar is the Dark Eldar actually upheld their end of the bargain, at least the letter of the bargain. Now the Tau were horrified because they were not aware of the true cost of what the Dark Eldar were really going to do to those "on cultural exchange", but it was the Tau then that technically broke the deal by not offering up additional Tau or an Ethereal in return for the Dark Eldar aid already received.

Lawful Evil in action.
The Dark Eldar respected the terms of the contract. Its not their fault if the Tau didn't read the small print or asked if they'd be getting their Ethereals back in one piece without having horrible things done to them.

Actually from my understanding the dark eldar basically always adhere to at least the letter og any deals they make. Its basically the only good quality of the species. I mean thats probably one of the main reasons Cammeragh is such a massive hub for Mercenarys and Pirates. Your reputation is the only thing that means anything in the world of Pirates and Mercs.

The Haemonculi are also the insurance salesman of the Dark Eldar through their monopoly of the body regeneration business. Nobody will pay them if they aren't seen to deliver on at least most of their promises of resurrection.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

That's autocorrect for 'nurgle' but now I'm picturing an invasion of fluffy daemonic duvets.....

Fluff Guard worship Grandpa Snuggle, and summon Plushwalkers.

And when more hugging power is needed, a Great Fuzzy One.

 Tiennos wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

That's autocorrect for 'nurgle' but now I'm picturing an invasion of fluffy daemonic duvets.....

Fluff Guard worship Grandpa Snuggle, and summon Plushwalkers.

And when more hugging power is needed, a Great Fuzzy One.

I don't know about you, but a demonic teddy bear of Slaanesh sounds terrifying.

Dandelion wrote:
I agree with the above. The warp and chaos are mirrors of the emotions of humanity. The suffering inflicted by the imperium fuels chaos. Besides, the whole point of the setting is satire. The imperium is supposed to be the good guy when by all measures they’re actually the baddies. And most of their problems are originally self inflicted.

Also the tau don’t mind control, and they’ve only sterilized rebellious human populations (whereas the imperium would gladly kill everyone on the planet)

That's a lie that has been adressed recently: the 4th expansion sphere killed ALL its auxiliaries because of the warp.Tau are doing exactly the same now they are in contact with the warp.

 godardc wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I agree with the above. The warp and chaos are mirrors of the emotions of humanity. The suffering inflicted by the imperium fuels chaos. Besides, the whole point of the setting is satire. The imperium is supposed to be the good guy when by all measures they’re actually the baddies. And most of their problems are originally self inflicted.

Also the tau don’t mind control, and they’ve only sterilized rebellious human populations (whereas the imperium would gladly kill everyone on the planet)

That's a lie that has been adressed recently: the 4th expansion sphere killed ALL its auxiliaries because of the warp.Tau are doing exactly the same now they are in contact with the warp.

And then 5th Sphere Punished them heavily for it. Sidelining almost every officer and out right executing the worst offenders. And that was less your average everyday warp travel and more a small scale warp calamity that caused that kurfuffle.

 Tiennos wrote:
Fluff Guard worship Grandpa Snuggle, and summon Plushwalkers.

And when more hugging power is needed, a Great Fuzzy One.

Yes, because they aren't aware of the Warp. What that show is the way they react when they face the warp, and fortunately for them it rarely happens. If they were in the Imperium of Man situation (the 4th was) they would act the same. The ones who aren't, who don't even think the warp exist, keep the old peaceful ways (and we KNOW how it ended for the human federation before the Imperium. We know this for a fact by the narrator).

 Tiennos wrote:
Honestly, are the Imperium and the T'au empire ideologies that different? I mean, the Imperium justifies anything it does with its own version of the "greater good". It's just that in their case, the greater good means "humanity runs the galaxy its own way" while the T'au are willing to invite other species to the party. But if at some point genocide was necessary for the greater good, the empire would do it, wouldn't it?

For a random citizen, in both cases you're part of an empire that doesn't care about what you want or think, only what is best for the empire.

I agree with this. Obviously, the Tau are presented in a way that is more commensurate with contemporary IRL materialism.

The “greater good” is an obvious reference to IRL totalitarian rhetoric.

 flandarz wrote:
Are Jokaero actually non-sentient, or is it one of those "don't ask, don't tell" situations where they're useful and docile enough that no one cares if they can think or not?

They are a non-sentient species. They also happen to be able to craft advanced technology and even build space ships. But this is technically no different than a Chimp using a stick to pull termites out of the dirt. Their advanced technological knowledge however did cause some confusion with Imperial Xenographers who at first thought they must be sentient creatures. Only after a lot of extensive testing was it discovered they are simply beasts, extremely intelligent beasts, but beasts no less.

I kinda feel like that might just be Imperial Propaganda (like "Orkz are stupid brutes") to "normalize" having them around, but since I doubt there's any conflicting lore about it, I'll buy into it.

In those Warhammer Adventures books Jokaero are fully sapient with names and all, with some chapters told from the resident Jokaero Flegan-Palas POV.

I dunno maybe people involved in finding out whatever the Jokaero are sentient or not were just so unsettled by self aware monkeys capable of making better stuff than the hallowed humans that they just refused to accept them as anything but animals. Or maybe the truth was hushed down because it was convenient for the parties involved. Or maybe the Jokaero just played dumb.

 godardc wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I agree with the above. The warp and chaos are mirrors of the emotions of humanity. The suffering inflicted by the imperium fuels chaos. Besides, the whole point of the setting is satire. The imperium is supposed to be the good guy when by all measures they’re actually the baddies. And most of their problems are originally self inflicted.

Also the tau don’t mind control, and they’ve only sterilized rebellious human populations (whereas the imperium would gladly kill everyone on the planet)

That's a lie that has been adressed recently: the 4th expansion sphere killed ALL its auxiliaries because of the warp.Tau are doing exactly the same now they are in contact with the warp.

Are you referring to the auxiliaries that all turned into murderous demonspawn? How is that even remotely the same?