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SeanDrake wrote:
Seems a good spot to drop this again.

To be fair in among all the wailing and gnashing of teeth with people tearing clumps of there hair out and flogging themselves with there own torn up xenos/cms codex it seems to have been forgotten that for the majority of there existence space marines have been decidedly mediocre and that’s being generous.

Yes they have been some good periods for marines but they tend towards boring monobuilds caused by unintended rules interactions unrelated to the actual codex.

A big chunk of the time Marines have been gak has been parallel to a xenos/csm army being hideously broken normally for months and sometimes years. Pretty much every army has had its period in the sun Necrons,Elder,Tau,CSM, GSC even Orks some of these have had multiple periods of glory others just crushed entire editions.

Yet marines get there first good rules for quite sometime and within hours every xenos player collectively lost there gak, I’m not counting CSM because there always like that. Watching Elder players whine was delightfully hypocritical and entertaining at the same time considering the then current flying circus meta and the fact they have been breaking the game in various ways for years.

There seems to have been some kind of mass hysteria but other than sour grapes I cannot see why, I mean I guess some tournament players are upset that playing against marines is no longer free victory points. Also some people who invested heavily in cheese armies that are hard countered by some marines would be unhappy. Ahhh actually yeah ok nvm it makes sense now

Are you quite finished disgorging more verbal diarrhoea than Papa Nurgle?

Okay, good.

First of all, yes, Space marines weren't great for most of 8th and were in need of a fix. However, they were far from the *only* faction that was struggling and in need of a fix.

To take a particularly pertinent example, CSMs haven't exactly been lighting the world on fire either. Especially if your idea of CSMs isn't 'pick the best units from about 6 different books and ignore everything else - including most of the actual Chaos Space marines'. Indeed, Chaos Space Marines suffered basically all the same problems as their non-spiky brethren.

However, whilst Space Marines got a spanking new codex that provided sweeping improvements across the board, CSMs were given a "new" codex that changed almost nothing, failed to include any of the improvements SMs had received and was little more than a compilation book for a few extra rules and models that had been added since the initial book launched.

Hence, whilst I'm not a CSM player myself, I can understand CSM players feeling rather slighted.

But let's get back to Space marines. Okay, they got a new, super-codex with a bunch of improvements that no other faction has access to. You say that they needed the power boost. Fine.

What about the slew of subfaction books that added even more additional rules and power increases that were by this point wholly unnecessary?

What about the fact that they are getting even more rules and bonuses in the upcoming Faith and Fury book, whilst Eldar and DE got virtually nothing, and CSMs will be lucky to even break even with Marines before all their extra supplements?

Moreover, even if you think SMs getting a million, billion extra rules is somehow justifiable even as their power creeps so high that other factions have to strain their necks just to keep it in sight, what about the endless model releases for them? If you think that new rules should prioritise the faction that is currently the worse for wear, then surely that should also hold true when it comes to models? But whilst there are plenty of factions with rather pitiful model ranges, all we seem to see are endless waves of new bloody marine models.

I know that GW employees swear oaths of eternal obedience towards marines, but even by their own awful standards the level of marine releases have been obnoxious beyond all reason.

There is also this odd "something had to smash the Eldar all flyers meta!!11!!"

But... it hasn't. Eldar Flyers - as I see it - is one of the few lists that is viable versus Marines. Its just more and more obvious how clear this is what all flavours of Eldar have.

But then I guess CA can't be that far away. Perhaps then we can have a year of total 100% undisputed Marine domination.

Considering that eldar Flyers still Are there whilest Chaos has seemingly dropped out,i'd say that marines more likely kicked out Chaos rather then the"Flyers"

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that eldar Flyers still Are there whilest Chaos has seemingly dropped out,i'd say that marines more likely kicked out Chaos rather then the"Flyers"

Yeah but I get the feeling alaitoc may be getting a nerf to go along with the disappointment that was Phoenix rising.

Along with the one legion whose trait gw may actually update.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that eldar Flyers still Are there whilest Chaos has seemingly dropped out,i'd say that marines more likely kicked out Chaos rather then the"Flyers"

Yeah but I get the feeling alaitoc may be getting a nerf to go along with the disappointment that was Phoenix rising.

Along with the one legion whose trait gw may actually update.

Tbf DG probably need it the most.
Still in a Way this is now beyond wierd.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering that eldar Flyers still Are there whilest Chaos has seemingly dropped out,i'd say that marines more likely kicked out Chaos rather then the"Flyers"

Yeah but I get the feeling alaitoc may be getting a nerf to go along with the disappointment that was Phoenix rising.

Along with the one legion whose trait gw may actually update.

Tbf DG probably need it the most.
Still in a Way this is now beyond wierd.

Nope. It'll be alpha legion. Cause if sm can't have -1 to hit nobody can. Once rg lost it you knew everyone would.

From what I've seen the amount of complaints/criticism lines up much more with HOW op a faction is rather than which. Some skew towards more complaints against shooty armies, but generally speaking the amount of criticism of marines currently lines up with their win %.

 Tamwulf wrote:
The new supplements add a lot of variety and distinctiveness to Space Marines making them feel much more than "Oh, these are Red or Blue or Yellow or Green or Black or Grey Space Marines" all using the same rules. It's like Skittles- they all look different, but taste the same. Now, it's much more like Starburst candy. Every color tastes different.

Its unfortunate that the other factions in the game don't get a similar treatment. Chaos comes close, and falls a bit short. Wouldn't it be great to see an Ork Clan book? Eldar Faction books? GW has proven they can give a faction a real identity, flavor and rules to match. They can also go a little too far with the rules (cough cough Iron Hands cough).

I wonder when 9th edition will be announced?

I kind of feel its the other way, all the space marines have a bunch of unique that all blends into one big mess. And marines that should be just as capable as others end up sidelined since the rules are not subtle enough to be used in such a way.
They are all just Blue, Red, Yellow or green. As there is no flavor to be had when there really is no reason not to just play the rules that are best, Marines are Supposed to be a veteran force able to adapt to situations rabidly and with efficiency.
If they really want to show chapters as different, they should be focusing on what units and weapons and tech they have available to each chapter. And how they can outfit there units.
Special and None Special unique HQ and other things.
Not flat rule buffs that would make sense for basically any army or faction of its type, let alone just any marine specialist force.

Apple fox wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
The new supplements add a lot of variety and distinctiveness to Space Marines making them feel much more than "Oh, these are Red or Blue or Yellow or Green or Black or Grey Space Marines" all using the same rules. It's like Skittles- they all look different, but taste the same. Now, it's much more like Starburst candy. Every color tastes different.

Its unfortunate that the other factions in the game don't get a similar treatment. Chaos comes close, and falls a bit short. Wouldn't it be great to see an Ork Clan book? Eldar Faction books? GW has proven they can give a faction a real identity, flavor and rules to match. They can also go a little too far with the rules (cough cough Iron Hands cough).

I wonder when 9th edition will be announced?

I kind of feel its the other way, all the space marines have a bunch of unique that all blends into one big mess. And marines that should be just as capable as others end up sidelined since the rules are not subtle enough to be used in such a way.
They are all just Blue, Red, Yellow or green. As there is no flavor to be had when there really is no reason not to just play the rules that are best, Marines are Supposed to be a veteran force able to adapt to situations rabidly and with efficiency.
If they really want to show chapters as different, they should be focusing on what units and weapons and tech they have available to each chapter. And how they can outfit there units.
Special and None Special unique HQ and other things.
Not flat rule buffs that would make sense for basically any army or faction of its type, let alone just any marine specialist force.

I'm guessing you don't play Marines. because the only way all marines feel samey after this 'dex is if you don't play em and thus haven't taken the time examing the subtlies of the codex (this is normal, most people who don't play an army just here hyperbolic "they can do this this and this!")

the supplements now actually make the marine chapters really stand out. for a start due to the wide varity of strats, relics, WL traits etc ALL chapters are viable. If you play Ultramarines you are in for a fairly differant experiance from Iron Hands. your army will synergize better with differant units etc. Iron Hands for example want to focus on big guns on tanks. Ultramarines are going to be a more mobile rapid movement infantry army.

BrianDavion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
The new supplements add a lot of variety and distinctiveness to Space Marines making them feel much more than "Oh, these are Red or Blue or Yellow or Green or Black or Grey Space Marines" all using the same rules. It's like Skittles- they all look different, but taste the same. Now, it's much more like Starburst candy. Every color tastes different.

Its unfortunate that the other factions in the game don't get a similar treatment. Chaos comes close, and falls a bit short. Wouldn't it be great to see an Ork Clan book? Eldar Faction books? GW has proven they can give a faction a real identity, flavor and rules to match. They can also go a little too far with the rules (cough cough Iron Hands cough).

I wonder when 9th edition will be announced?

I kind of feel its the other way, all the space marines have a bunch of unique that all blends into one big mess. And marines that should be just as capable as others end up sidelined since the rules are not subtle enough to be used in such a way.
They are all just Blue, Red, Yellow or green. As there is no flavor to be had when there really is no reason not to just play the rules that are best, Marines are Supposed to be a veteran force able to adapt to situations rabidly and with efficiency.
If they really want to show chapters as different, they should be focusing on what units and weapons and tech they have available to each chapter. And how they can outfit there units.
Special and None Special unique HQ and other things.
Not flat rule buffs that would make sense for basically any army or faction of its type, let alone just any marine specialist force.

I'm guessing you don't play Marines. because the only way all marines feel samey after this 'dex is if you don't play em and thus haven't taken the time examing the subtlies of the codex (this is normal, most people who don't play an army just here hyperbolic "they can do this this and this!")

the supplements now actually make the marine chapters really stand out. for a start due to the wide varity of strats, relics, WL traits etc ALL chapters are viable. If you play Ultramarines you are in for a fairly differant experiance from Iron Hands. your army will synergize better with differant units etc. Iron Hands for example want to focus on big guns on tanks. Ultramarines are going to be a more mobile rapid movement infantry army.

I do, I have been playing them that way for 15 years. And I think you missed my point, I just switch around the rules as suit my current needs for my marines. The special snowflake rules mean zero when they should really just be within how different units and commanders would go about command on the battlefield.
It’s a lot of rules just for marines, and less for other army’s that should have access to them.
Also it’s cool when they do the cool rules for marines that follow the codex much less, but that’s not really what i am talking about.

 grouchoben wrote:
The fundamental thing I feel GW has got wrong: "the player base always wants new rules". Well, no, not if those new rules completely imba the game the players love. Rules are constantly leveraged to move product, rather than as an end in themselves. Until they start to treat their rules as an end in themselves, the game will suffer.

Having had such a massive success on their hands since the 8th reboot, GW need to tread a little more lightly because, especially in share prices, what goes up fast can also come down with a *bang*.

If I had any say GW would invest some of its huge profits on 1) an expert, autonomous, internal review team that oversaw the design process, the managers' role in that process, and a rigorous testing scheme; 2) a fantastic root-and-branch living game portal for list building and rule maintenance with a subscription system and; 3) honest-to-goodness competitive support along the lines X-Wing gets - close integration with the scene, fantastic prize support, etc. If they carry on down their current path, I have to say I am a bit worried that they'll cook the golden goose...

Yeah, having played a few games now that have relatively static rulesets, I DO NOT want a continuous stream of new rules. It's so refreshing, feeling like I'm able to breathe, build a solid list and play with that for a while.

Well, it does seem to be a bit of a roll of the dice to spend huge time on making your armies look good and hope and pray they get to have good rules.

It seems funny that the GW "poster child" armies of 40k are the ones that do not seem to get much love.
The "standard" armies need the fast release but the "fringe" armies get that one-up codex creep that has the unintended consequence of making odd-balls the better armies.

I think I gave up on CSM since around 6th edition and they still have not seen much love yet, Nurgle was beginning to look like something for a time.
I think I have some 5000 points worth of these guys collecting dust.

Do we even want to talk about Grey Knights? They have a consistent smell to them for how long now?
When I wanted to have something to fight my CSM I had no idea these guys stank up the place worse.
Got almost all the metal models and a fair bit of the plastic... again gathering dust.

Deathwatch... had a moment there with the interesting Primaris squad mix rules... too bad their flyers are really bad.
These guys need some serious updates to even make a passing appearance to be space marines.
Again, not doing all that great with these dudes either.

Inquisition, I have pretty much everything they have out there except the dreadnaught Inquisitor guy (Karamazov I think).
There may be a hope with the new codex coming out.

So, I have a fair bit of Primaris, so I have decided I would go Ultramarines. Yeah, they have that cool rule of treating them like they are standing still for shooting. Remember the caveat for them is no "soup" so no other army can mix in with their greatness.

I have a fully painted Black Templar "Squat-marine" force which is looking doubtful with what is coming up of them getting much "OP" rules especially when everyone else is getting psychically "awakened".

So, my Imperial Guard have taken some nerf hits and i am arriving late to the field with Imperial Knights, so who knows?

I feel like the smarter business decision for GW would have been to release the crazy OP marine dexes and then force everyone else to pay up with PA focused on the Xenos.

Throw a little SM love in there (faction specific litanies in one book, upgraded characters in another) but put the real meat in there for Xenos who can't compete outside of 1-2 builds.

Instead, GW seems to have chosen to alienate (ha) the Xenos players that are not playing the 1-2 hyper competitive meta builds and really isn't offering any hope. Power creep moves units (I swear this is a GW mantra) I just think they are missing the boat on cashing in on Xenos wanting to catch-up with marines 2.0

bananathug wrote:
Instead, GW seems to have chosen to alienate (ha) the Xenos players that are not playing the 1-2 hyper competitive meta builds and really isn't offering any hope. Power creep moves units (I swear this is a GW mantra) I just think they are missing the boat on cashing in on Xenos wanting to catch-up with marines 2.0

Apparently we're all supposed to carry an SM army as a backup for when our codex sucks.

Would have been helpful if this disclaimer had been on the front of the book really.

 Talizvar wrote:
[snip]

Deathwatch... had a moment there with the interesting Primaris squad mix rules... too bad their flyers are really bad.
These guys need some serious updates to even make a passing appearance to be space marines.
Again, not doing all that great with these dudes either.

[/snip]

If you're playing Deathwatch and even acknowledging that Primaris exist you're doing it wrong, the money unit there is Storm Shield/Stormbolter Veterans. Rigging for any "normal" Marine army and then running into one with SIA and four shots per model that also wastes all your AP and all your D2 is painful.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Apple fox wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
The new supplements add a lot of variety and distinctiveness to Space Marines making them feel much more than "Oh, these are Red or Blue or Yellow or Green or Black or Grey Space Marines" all using the same rules. It's like Skittles- they all look different, but taste the same. Now, it's much more like Starburst candy. Every color tastes different.

Its unfortunate that the other factions in the game don't get a similar treatment. Chaos comes close, and falls a bit short. Wouldn't it be great to see an Ork Clan book? Eldar Faction books? GW has proven they can give a faction a real identity, flavor and rules to match. They can also go a little too far with the rules (cough cough Iron Hands cough).

I wonder when 9th edition will be announced?

I kind of feel its the other way, all the space marines have a bunch of unique that all blends into one big mess. And marines that should be just as capable as others end up sidelined since the rules are not subtle enough to be used in such a way.
They are all just Blue, Red, Yellow or green. As there is no flavor to be had when there really is no reason not to just play the rules that are best, Marines are Supposed to be a veteran force able to adapt to situations rabidly and with efficiency.
If they really want to show chapters as different, they should be focusing on what units and weapons and tech they have available to each chapter. And how they can outfit there units.
Special and None Special unique HQ and other things.
Not flat rule buffs that would make sense for basically any army or faction of its type, let alone just any marine specialist force.

I'm guessing you don't play Marines. because the only way all marines feel samey after this 'dex is if you don't play em and thus haven't taken the time examing the subtlies of the codex (this is normal, most people who don't play an army just here hyperbolic "they can do this this and this!")

the supplements now actually make the marine chapters really stand out. for a start due to the wide varity of strats, relics, WL traits etc ALL chapters are viable. If you play Ultramarines you are in for a fairly differant experiance from Iron Hands. your army will synergize better with differant units etc. Iron Hands for example want to focus on big guns on tanks. Ultramarines are going to be a more mobile rapid movement infantry army.

And it's quite unnecessary.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Instead, GW seems to have chosen to alienate (ha) the Xenos players that are not playing the 1-2 hyper competitive meta builds and really isn't offering any hope. Power creep moves units (I swear this is a GW mantra) I just think they are missing the boat on cashing in on Xenos wanting to catch-up with marines 2.0

Apparently we're all supposed to carry an SM army as a backup for when our codex sucks.

Would have been helpful if this disclaimer had been on the front of the book really.

In my mind this is really the dividing line between "veteran players" and everyone else; the moment it really sinks in that every army has been jank at some point and will be jank again at some point in the future.

The Newman wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Instead, GW seems to have chosen to alienate (ha) the Xenos players that are not playing the 1-2 hyper competitive meta builds and really isn't offering any hope. Power creep moves units (I swear this is a GW mantra) I just think they are missing the boat on cashing in on Xenos wanting to catch-up with marines 2.0

Apparently we're all supposed to carry an SM army as a backup for when our codex sucks.

Would have been helpful if this disclaimer had been on the front of the book really.

In my mind this is really the dividing line between "veteran players" and everyone else; the moment it really sinks in that every army has been jank at some point and will be jank again at some point in the future.

Yeah, and in 7th, when it was "Eldar is OP, everything else is trash" people were similarly pissed.

More so, honestly. The hate here seems mostly directed at Games Workshop and their towering stupidity, or at worst directed at the "mary-sueness" of the (fictional) space marine characters. Nobody is yelling that marine PLAYERS are some scum of the earth WAAC douchebags because suddenly they received a half-dozen OP codexes all at once.

Throughout 7th, during the Eldar >Everyone era, people who played eldar were pretty much universally cast as "the problem."

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

bananathug wrote:
Instead, GW seems to have chosen to alienate (ha) the Xenos players that are not playing the 1-2 hyper competitive meta builds and really isn't offering any hope. Power creep moves units (I swear this is a GW mantra) I just think they are missing the boat on cashing in on Xenos wanting to catch-up with marines 2.0

Apparently we're all supposed to carry an SM army as a backup for when our codex sucks.

Would have been helpful if this disclaimer had been on the front of the book really.

What this and alot of other similar minded comments fail to convey, is to what kind of game it applies. The power ceiling (and floor) of the factions is all over the place and you can not expect to come to a random table with a random opponent, just throw your models down without communication and have a close game.

This is not how the game has worked for the past 20 years that I experienced it. If this is what you expect, then sorry to tell you, but Warhammer 40k is not the game you are going to get happy with. You are not wrong for wanting it, just saying you won't find it in Games Workshop.

I want to emphasize that from the comments alone, as a reader, you get the impression that you either can't play certain armies at all or that every army is reduced to 4-5 units from their complete roster. This is true if you play in tournaments or high competitive environments. It is not true if you are having a beer&pretzels gaming group where people are less focused on individual performance of a unit and more into aesthetic, army theme or simply rolling buckets of dice. Tau can have fun and even games without three Commanders and three Riptides and 500 shield drones, just as Chaos can have fun and even games without bringing the mother of all soups led by three Discolords.

I like how everything new is OP.

Also I like how basic SM were "meh" for years and now when they get their buff all the IG and TauDar players are upsetti spaghetti.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I like how everything new is OP.

Also I like how basic SM were "meh" for years and now when they get their buff all the IG and TauDar players are upsetti spaghetti.

I'd be curious how many people who are complaining so viciously about space marines had no issues running wraith knights back in the day

That was well said hero. GW has never put out a game that you could play pick-up with a random stranger without a high probability of one of you having a bad time, and the vast majority of them have suffered from "win at list design, not at the table" syndrome.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I like how everything new is OP.

Also I like how basic SM were "meh" for years and now when they get their buff all the IG and TauDar players are upsetti spaghetti.

...Did you come here from some sort of late 5th/ early 6th edition time warp where the meta is IG and Taudar?

I think it shouldn't be all that controversial to say that when a new book comes out and suddenly out of nowhere it is over 50% of top placing lists for several weeks, it is overpowered. Because that doesn't happen with most new books. With most books, we get a leaked blurry photo of rules and it spawns a 40-page thread about how Kelermorph is going to dominate the meta and is the most OP thing to ever enter the game...then the book drops and in the two week window following it landing people aren't expecting its tricks and it pulls in 25-30% of top placings before adjusting back down.

That ain't happening with nu-marines. The only bump we've seen in their dominance has been from the IH faq, where they dropped from 75-80% of top placings to 55-65%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I like how everything new is OP.

Also I like how basic SM were "meh" for years and now when they get their buff all the IG and TauDar players are upsetti spaghetti.

I'd be curious how many people who are complaining so viciously about space marines had no issues running wraith knights back in the day

"Nobody is yelling that marine PLAYERS are some scum of the earth WAAC douchebags because suddenly they received a half-dozen OP codexes all at once.

Throughout 7th, during the Eldar >Everyone era, people who played eldar were pretty much universally cast as "the problem."

I really have to thank you, I feel like for the past couple of weeks you've been popping into threads just to prove me right. People are going to start accusing you of being my strawman alt.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I like how everything new is OP.

Also I like how basic SM were "meh" for years and now when they get their buff all the IG and TauDar players are upsetti spaghetti.

I'd be curious how many people who are complaining so viciously about space marines had no issues running wraith knights back in the day

"Nobody is yelling that marine PLAYERS are some scum of the earth WAAC douchebags because suddenly they received a half-dozen OP codexes all at once.

Throughout 7th, during the Eldar >Everyone era, people who played eldar were pretty much universally cast as "the problem."

I really have to thank you, I feel like for the past couple of weeks you've been popping into threads just to prove me right. People are going to start accusing you of being my strawman alt.

Conversely, though, this is the first time I've seen Marines be on top, and not too many people complaining about how trash Marines are. I'm plesantly surprised.

Also, I think you'd be surprised about how many Eldar players complained about Eldar being so bonkers OP.

I don't get the logic of "a faction used to be bad due to poor design therefore it's okay for them to be overpowered now due to poor design", or vice versa. Seems vindictive and narrow-minded

 Continuity wrote:
I don't get the logic of "a faction used to be bad due to poor design therefore it's okay for them to be overpowered now due to poor design", or vice versa. Seems vindictive and narrow-minded

On a related point, "poor design" is a mostly seperate axis than "balance" as far as problems are concerned. It's not the power of the SM books that bothers me so much. It's the poor design. I'd rather Marines weren't so OP, but I'd much rather a more well-designed book that was just as OP than a poorly designed book. Even if the poorly designed book were less unbalanced.

Don't get me wrong; I'd prefer balance to not. But good design overall is much more important to me (but not to everybody, for reasonable reasons).

 Continuity wrote:
I don't get the logic of "a faction used to be bad due to poor design therefore it's okay for them to be overpowered now due to poor design", or vice versa. Seems vindictive and narrow-minded

It's a variation of the sunk cost logical fallacy. Basically it's the 'I suffered, so you should have to suffer too.' train of thought.

 Continuity wrote:
I don't get the logic of "a faction used to be bad due to poor design therefore it's okay for them to be overpowered now due to poor design", or vice versa. Seems vindictive and narrow-minded

I find it absolutely hilarious, actually.

Especially since it induces name-calling and frothing at the mouth. That's my favorite part.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I like how everything new is OP.

Also I like how basic SM were "meh" for years and now when they get their buff all the IG and TauDar players are upsetti spaghetti.

I'd be curious how many people who are complaining so viciously about space marines had no issues running wraith knights back in the day

LOL - literally none of them. I think I firmly remember people saying things like...Scatter bikes are "okay". It's whatever man. Some of these complaints are warranted. Like Ironhands are just laughable the amount of free rules they get...Ultramarines though...? Come on. You could play Ironhands vs ultras and ironahnds would win 90% of the games. That is the difference in power.

I only do it for the fluff!