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Wayniac wrote:
Sadly this. They've made record-setting profits DESPITE this. Why do they need to fix anything anymore? 8th edition is almost as bad bloat as 7th was, and the fanbase just doesn't care. They ate it up like the second coming of Christ and skyrocketed GW's success like never before. GW learned that the majority of players like what they are doing

Fixed that for you

Yoyoyo wrote:
Stalker Bolt Rifles are bananas on a basic troop -- but I don't have the impression that CSM will be able to outshoot SM, especially the IF or IH flavors.

Word Bearers should have a lot of Daemons, maybe the key is to get to a 4++ and punish Intercessors who sacrificed volume of fire for those AP3 D3 shots?

So your solution to my issue is to just stop playing the army I am playing?

I take daemon allies if I have the points to do so. My issue is that playing at 1000 points I just did not have the points to add in an allied detachment of Chaos Daemons.

I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.

So at 465 points he has more than enough to take care of any one vehicle and at least one squad of infantry a turn which I have no response for. He removed over 50% of my points in the first turn before I even got to attack once, the next turn I was down to 7 cultist, a greater possessed and a Dark Apostle. Turn two the only unit I was able to charge with the possessed I had left was the Centurions, which eliminated the possessed on over watch.

The issue is more than the fact that my reroll morale checks sucks, because it does suck spectacularly, the issue is that even after receiving a 2.0 codex as well as "updates" in a supplement CSM are so far behind that I don't think that GW even has an interest in making them better. They had two chances to throw a bone and both times have landed like a wet turd.

Just look at how IF, RG, Salamanders and IH have been treated as opposed to Thousand Sons and Death Guard. Loyalist get the entire range of the codex with a bunch of special rules piled on top while Heretics get a heavily trimmed options with no stacking rules in return for a handful of unique units. Hell Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Blood Angels are in the same boat as Heretics. Stacking more and more modifiers is just multiplying the power level as opposed to a different set of unique rules.

I'm not saying it's fair man, I'm just looking at how to beat them. How you plan to tackle Stalker Intercessors (1 shot each) is going to be a lot different than how you tackle DevCents (6/12 shots each).

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot?

Why should Tau not be allowed to assault? It's the flavor of the game I guess.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm not saying it's fair man, I'm just looking at how to beat them. How you plan to tackle Stalker Intercessors (1 shot each) is going to be a lot different than how you tackle DevCents (6/12 shots each).

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot?

Why should Tau not be allowed to assault? It's the flavor of the game I guess.

Are you saying it's fine how pitiful Kroot and Vespid are in melee?

I'm not that interested in complaining about balance. What's the point?

You either comp the rules, adjust the lists, or work with the options available to you.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.

Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)

I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.

Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.

The Newman wrote:
Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself.

That would be Khorne, like theoretically representative of say 20% of Chaos forces. Also, currently, BT are better at melee than Khorne's chosen legion, so I guess that idea's out the window, even if it were true.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I'm not that interested in complaining about balance. What's the point?

You either comp the rules, adjust the lists, or work with the options available to you.

You didn't answer the question. Just as I expected.

Because of this supposed design, on purpose, you're saying it's okay neither part of the Tau army is even mediocre at melee?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.

Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)

I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.

Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.

Except the point costs are still wildly out of balance, and the codex itself doesn't handle Legions well at all.

The Newman wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.

Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)

I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.

Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.

If you are really interested in the list I can give you more specifics in DMs, no need to clog up this topic with that level of break down. I will say that it was not a maxed out unit of Centurions, it was just three. In a 1000 point game those three were deleting a squad of infantry a turn fairly easily. Also fine CSM are supposed to be about CC, as long as you ignore the long list of ranged units in the codex, if that is the case why are they still terrible at CC? People keep telling me that possessed can get really nasty in a WB list and I agree, except for the fact that they have to walk across the table taking two to three turns to get into CC and are fairly expensive units for how squishy they are. A base squad of possessed is 100 points and a squad of 6 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt rifles is 102, the only benefit that possessed get is S5 and 2A but they have to be in CC to even use that which in this edition is a losing proposition. I am leaving out all support units on purpose for this example because it can get very confused when you start throwing in a bunch of what ifs. I get that Warp Time can help out a unit of possessed but that is a haymaker that your opponent is going to see coming and has at least one turn to respond to and you are putting a squad of marines in the direct line of fire of your opponents entire army.

Faith and Fury did very little to address the issues of CSM, it added some cool new toys but for the most part it is a neat little toy on a broken army. Daemon weapons are cool and I love to see them come back but it doesn't really help when I don't have a unit that is worth putting them on. The new stratagems aren't going to shake up the meta of CSM, nor are the artifacts and warlord traits. They are just a bit of window fixings to make it look better but don't come close to addressing the structural issues of the army. I appreciate that I can now run a Dark Apostle with two chants with my WB, that is awesome and fluffy. But it doesn't address the fact that daemon summoning is just a really bad version of deep strike and my warlord trait doesn't actually do anything to benefit me and after seeing GW give to passes at throwing CSM a bone it is still disappointing.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I get that Warp Time can help out a unit of possessed but that is a haymaker that your opponent is going to see coming and has at least one turn to respond to

I can see getting a T1 charge off with Possessed. Mark them Nurgle and start them next to a Gnarlmaw so they can charge after advancing. Move 7", advance, use your guaranteed Warptime, repeat. At this time you are probably about 21" across the board and can charge another 2D6.

Sure you are using support units, but they're moving three times as far. Use two stratagems and a psychic power, and they are hitting 4 times as hard, they can kill a Centurion with one wound. Why wouldn't you want to do that?

I dunno, I have friend who started playing 8th and made a WB army, and he's pretty happy about a lot of the strats and relics in the new leaks.

A Warlord trait with the +1 to S/A/M, with an Ashen Axe, makes me want to cry. Then pop Revered Host, a WB Terminator Lord is looking pretty fun.

That's a whole Warlord trait for what SHOULD be a Stratagem.

It's an amazing WL trait.

It's not just the stat buffs, it's the fact that you gain the Daemon and Possessed keywords.

I mean, it's not going to make WB the new IH, but it's forcing a very outdated army forward, and I think it's the right sorta change for a army that really needed help.

Now....about those shiney silver knights....

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I am not asking to be able to out shoot Space Marines, even though why not? Why should CSM not be allowed to shoot? Why should my Obliterators that cost over 100 points a piece not be able to out shoot a 70 point SM unit? Plus, even if I try to punish him by taking Daemons to fish for a 5++ his Intercessors were not the issue for my troops. But the Centurions shooting at me with 6 S5 AP-1 and 12 S4 shoots PER Centurion with the IF chapter tactic they get two hits per 6 rolled sure do tear apart any of my daemon units in no time.

Because you're Chaos. Loyalists fight at range like the cowards they are, Chaos is supposed to revel in slaughtering the foe from close enough to smell it when he kaks himself. (I admit I can't judge it as well since I play Loyalist marines, but the Faith and Fury content for CSM looks pretty good. Dakka would be losing it's damn mind over how much of a boost you just got if it hadn't come out in the wake of Marine Codex 2.0.)

I'm curious what else he was taking to add up to 465. A maxed out Centurion squad with that weapon load is only 420, which is a pretty big chunk of a 1000 point list. For 70 point models they're awfully squishy.

Having been on the other side of that unit under IF, I can tell you they don't do well against T6+ multi-wound models that aren't vehicles. The first time I played a IF list built to maximize the +1D vs vehicles they get on Heavy weapons I ran into a DE list with six Talos(?), that's a T7 Monsterous model with six or seven wounds and a 4++. I could not kill those things fast enough. Cents don't like trying to catch artillery shells or Lascannon fire either, and they're pretty bad in melee if you can shut off Overwatch to get to them.

If you are really interested in the list I can give you more specifics in DMs, no need to clog up this topic with that level of break down. I will say that it was not a maxed out unit of Centurions, it was just three. In a 1000 point game those three were deleting a squad of infantry a turn fairly easily. Also fine CSM are supposed to be about CC, as long as you ignore the long list of ranged units in the codex, if that is the case why are they still terrible at CC? People keep telling me that possessed can get really nasty in a WB list and I agree, except for the fact that they have to walk across the table taking two to three turns to get into CC and are fairly expensive units for how squishy they are. A base squad of possessed is 100 points and a squad of 6 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt rifles is 102, the only benefit that possessed get is S5 and 2A but they have to be in CC to even use that which in this edition is a losing proposition. I am leaving out all support units on purpose for this example because it can get very confused when you start throwing in a bunch of what ifs. I get that Warp Time can help out a unit of possessed but that is a haymaker that your opponent is going to see coming and has at least one turn to respond to and you are putting a squad of marines in the direct line of fire of your opponents entire army.

Faith and Fury did very little to address the issues of CSM, it added some cool new toys but for the most part it is a neat little toy on a broken army. Daemon weapons are cool and I love to see them come back but it doesn't really help when I don't have a unit that is worth putting them on. The new stratagems aren't going to shake up the meta of CSM, nor are the artifacts and warlord traits. They are just a bit of window fixings to make it look better but don't come close to addressing the structural issues of the army. I appreciate that I can now run a Dark Apostle with two chants with my WB, that is awesome and fluffy. But it doesn't address the fact that daemon summoning is just a really bad version of deep strike and my warlord trait doesn't actually do anything to benefit me and after seeing GW give to passes at throwing CSM a bone it is still disappointing.

I meant the bit about CC to be toung-in-cheek, I guess I wasn't blatent enough about it.

Yes I would like to know what was in his list, and yours as well. Three Cents destroying a unit every turn does sound about like what I'd expect, but they're just 12 wounds at T5 Sv2+. They shouldn't be getting more than one turn of fire off before they get severely whittled down.

Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.

Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?

That sounds pretty nasty.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.

Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?

That sounds pretty nasty.

Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.

Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?

That sounds pretty nasty.

Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.

Because of a jump pack or something else? Because MoE is damn cheap for those stats.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Wait, I don't play Chaos, but I was tooling around in BS making a WB army.

Can you take a WB Master of Executions, and give him 6 attacks, exploding 6s, at S10, -3AP D3+2 damage, with 6's equaling an extra mortal wound? Basically just pull off the warlord trait combo I mentioned above?

That sounds pretty nasty.

Yep, until you realize that a regular lord is just Plain better for the job.
Sadly.

Because of a jump pack or something else? Because MoE is damn cheap for those stats.

Jump pack is indeed the case.
I did run a moe occaionally in my foot slogging mass rc army, but even there he never really achieved what he should have.
And then new marines showed up which made that army of me pretty unplayble sadly.


Also, i personally think He is a bit of an obsolete charachter.
Further i feel Like greater possesed achieve comoarable results.

Greater Possessed are cheap as chips. I have them popping out of Termites with completely unrelated squads just because they can potentially tie something up or hit something.

I was thinking one of the nastier combos would be 2x Jump Lords, one with the Ashen Axe (WB) and the other with the Armor of Abhorrence (EC).

You could turn off 400+pts of shooting from maxed unit of Bolter Cents, remove a few using a 4dmg Thunder Hammer, and not even face retaliation on the enemy's turn.

The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.

Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csm hq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.

Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.

Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csm hq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.

Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.

In fairness, MoE would be /fairly/ insane with his 6" heroic if he had the fly keyword. They'd have to make the jump pack option pretty pricy for whats just a HQ torpedo.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
The Master of Executions should have just been the Exalted Champion's actual new sculpt, simple as that. As a unit it is /hilariously/ redundant. The last thing Chaos needs is a character hunting HQ choice, seeing as how we already have Exalted Champions, Greater Possessed and Jump Pack Lords, all of which do the same job only while also buffing your army.

Jep, which further adds the issue that no new generic csm hq has the jumppack Option.
Even the exalted champion has none, and with the Indexes going Dodo i doubt that changes.

Also mop is one of the hardest non jumppack charachters to stomach Imo.

In fairness, MoE would be /fairly/ insane with his 6" heroic if he had the fly keyword. They'd have to make the jump pack option pretty pricy for whats just a HQ torpedo.

We didn't need him to beginn with and on foot he will allways remain more useless then all other options, even gp's are a better option.

It's a bizarre as well they didn't just open up Malefic to Sorcerers.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's a bizarre as well they didn't just open up Malefic to Sorcerers.

The mop discipline?

Probably because then noone would need the new mop?

I think people are overly obsessed with jump packs, but I understand why.

GP is a buffer and doesn't come close to the hitting power of the MoE who carries a PF with no modifier and the Deathskullz trait on top of intervene.

Phobos CPTs/LTs aren't exactly tearing it up with their basic deep strike and combat knife, so, for those looking for differentiation between CSM and SM - this is the way CSM operate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's a bizarre as well they didn't just open up Malefic to Sorcerers.

The mop discipline?

Probably because then noone would need the new mop?

Nothing stops me from using a sorcerer as a MoP. Warlocks cant take all lores, either.

People aren't overly obsessed with Jump Packs. That's wrong. Sometimes you don't need them.

However, if you're a melee beatstick, what are you going to do if you can't reach melee at all?

For those interested, check out Nick Nanavati's list for trying out the new Chaos.